WOW! Circle of 5ths light bulb moment!

I never really understood what the hoopla was about until I recently purchased a keyboard and started messing with it. I stuck to the key of C at first...the black thingies were off limits. But as I progressed, I decided to try other keys. G was next, as it only has 1 black thingy. OK, then I progressed to the next key in the cirlce...D...it has 2 black thingies. Then A, E, and B.

As I played these scales, I noticed that the keys build upon one another in a logical way.

G had a flattened G.
D had a flattened G, AND a flattened D.
A had a flattened G, AND a flattened D, AND a flattened A.
E had a flattened G, AND a flattened D, AND a flattened A, AND a flattened E.
B had a flattened G, AND a flattened D, AND a flattened A, AND a flattened E, AND a flattened B.

This is probably nothing new to you theory buffs, but to me it was EYE OPENING! Just by memorizing the cirle of 5ths, I could instantly know what notes where flattened in any key. Playing the guitar for years...mostly by a visual positioning system like CAGED, didn't really give me this knowledge.

Also, I noticed that as you work your way around the circle, the black thingies on the keyboard go like this:

C - no black keys
G - the 1st black key in the group of 3
D - the 1st black key in the group of 3 PLUS the 1st black key in the group of 2
A - the 1st black key in the group of 3 PLUS the 1st black key in the group of 2 PLUS the 2nd black key in the group of 3.
E - the 1st black key in the group of 3 PLUS the 1st black key in the group of 2 PLUS the 2nd black key in the group of 3 PLUS the 2nd black key in the group of 2
B - ALL THE BLACK KEYS

This visual reference of the keyboard is INSTRUMENTAL in my ability to play piano scales and solos ad lib. It went from being a pain to being FUN!

Purchasing this old beat up keyboard was the best thing I've ever done to improve my musical knowlege.

That's the way it is ... but.

Usually its F-major that has one flat, Bb.

'Cause every scale has just one and also each 'letter' tone, so G A B C D E Gb G is a no go. Two Gs and no F in that G-major scale.

So gotta use a F# there. That way you also know when you see one sharp in the key signature that the scale is G-major. Likewise the order of sharps or flats writen in the key signature follows the circle of fifths.

Happy epiphany!

That's an interesting thing.

It was an epiphany for me, not long ago, to realize that if you looked at a key name (take C for example) on the circle of fifths, the spot to the left named its 4th, and the spot to the right named its 5th. And when it shows the relative minor--6th in the scale, so here Am--the same left and right shows the minor key Am, Dm, Em.

So now, if I can remember about the required sharps and flats, I can play in a key and count to the 6th for the relative minor, and use the 2nd and 3rd notes in the scale to find the minor chords to go with it, when I don't have a circle-of-fifths chart to look at.

Presto! I'm still limited in my musical knowledge--there's so much more to know--but I am no longer a 3-chord cowboy.

Thats great man. Maybe shift your thinking to the flat notes are sharps. Remember, a sharp key is not going to have flats and all letters of the musical alphabet must be represented. When I teach it to my classes (sharp keys) I teach it as: G>go down a letter>sharp it>F#

Our music is very mathematical. All kinds of ways to figure it out. Going as 5ths:

Know C is starting point, going up 5 is G and on around. The new accidental (sharps in this case) is always one letter below the Key. Add this to the previous sharp and you have all sharps in the key.

Or

Your in the key of D now. Take the F# from the key of G and go up a perfect fifth and there you have your C#

The third and seventh scale degree are what defines a scale or chord's basic tonality. (major or minor) If you look at the sharps you add as you go around the circle of 5ths you are adding the sharps to make each key major. In other words the with the addition of each sharp you are adding the major 7th and the previous key added the major third.

Congrats.
Circle of Fifths/Circle of Fourths is like a cognitive NGD!

Emu, you really ought to think of those notes as sharpened lower notes. G has a sharp F; D has a sharp F and a sharp C, etc. the reason is because a major scale has to have the notes in alphabetical order, each note has a different letter and the space between the notes is always the same for every major scale:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = G A B C D E F# G.
For D it's: D E F# G A B C# D. It would be erroneous theoretically to say that the G major scale has a Gb note in it, even though the F# and Gb sound the same (this is called "enharmonic." )

The "flat keys" are F Bb Eb Ab and Db. Believe it or not , you have to use double flats, double sharps Cb, B#, E# and Fb sometimes to be "theoretically correct." You have made an important breakthrough, now I encourage you to use the proper terminology for your new knowledge, as I see a couple of others have done.

interesting, but i dont want the music i play to be mathematical...

interesting, melodic and with great feeling and soul..... yes.

but, not mathematical.


rand z

interesting, but i dont want the music i play to be mathematical...

interesting, melodic and with great feeling and soul..... yes.

but, not mathematical.


rand z

Dude, the music you play is mathematical whether you want it to be, or recognize it or not. It is the nature of music. There is definitely a mathematical formula at work in why the sounds that are pleasing to our ears are just that. Maybe you don't want it to be stiff or mechanical, but it will be mathematical.

sure its ALL mathematical... everything can be broken down to mathamatical terms.

but as a songwriter, guitarist and singer for 40 years, i dont want approach music (or anything) from a mathematical standpoint.

i play music because its pretty and sincere and represents certain truths, to me. ive always approached it from this angle (also mathematical).

but, to me... mathematics is cold and calculating (pun intended).


rand z

I'm glad I can play and enjoy my insincere music.

ok, this is going to seem like a smart-alec question, but it's the opposite, a completely dumb question...what is the value of knowing this, when you play guitar and bass, not keyboards or any other instrument? on guitar, you play a pattern and then move the pattern to whatever fret you need and the sharps and flats take care of themselves. if i need a note, it's part of a shape.

i know that there probably is a huge advantage to knowing about the circle of 5ths, it's just that i am so ignorant of theory and etc that it's hard for me to understand what use it is. i want to go deeper into this, but it's much like a blind man trying to learn to drive a semi. i know there's things out there i need to know about, but i can't see them.

I'm glad I can play and enjoy my insincere music.

:lol::mrgreen::razz::mrgreen::lol:

ok, this is going to seem like a smart-alec question, but it's the opposite, a completely dumb question...what is the value of knowing this, when you play guitar and bass, not keyboards or any other instrument? on guitar, you play a pattern and then move the pattern to whatever fret you need and the sharps and flats take care of themselves. if i need a note, it's part of a shape.

i know that there probably is a huge advantage to knowing about the circle of 5ths, it's just that i am so ignorant of theory and etc that it's hard for me to understand what use it is. i want to go deeper into this, but it's much like a blind man trying to learn to drive a semi. i know there's things out there i need to know about, but i can't see them.

From your description, it sounds like you're stuck playing in a way that is entirely pattern-based, which means you probably don't really understand what you're doing, but you can play "nice" sounding stuff as long as you stay within familiar patterns. This unfortunately, is very common among guitar players, who commonly use terms like "pentatonic box" and who play the same pattern based stuff over and over. That's much different than players who know the "DNA" of how chords, scales etc. are put together. You can be a lot more free in your playing if you have an understanding that goes beyond "movable patterns" and riffs.

By the way, I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this either, but one of my goals is always to work to move beyond that type of thinking. It's limiting and seems to be a problem that plagues guitar players more than any other instrument, probably because of the way our instrument is laid out.

The guys I know who don't play like that are often also quite good piano players, and they tend to be more musical and less repetitive in their playing than many "guitar-centric" players.

ok, this is going to seem like a smart-alec question, but it's the opposite, a completely dumb question...what is the value of knowing this, when you play guitar and bass ...

Well for one thing, it depends upon whether or not you want to read music. To be able to read (and read ahead), knowing the sharps and flats is absolutely necessary.

My research area is music and math. I also use math in my compositions (algebraic and permutational type). I don't use formulas, but I suppose I could represent something that way. Lately, I have been building big symmetrical structures, then either knocking it down and damaging the symmetry, or extract pieces of the structure. This is a good way to create a sense of recognition, expectation, and motion through time and pitch space. Composers have been using the circle of fifths this way for a long time.

Below is an image of the Journal of Mathematics and Music, which I helped co-found several years ago. My role was very small, but it was fascinating to watch the process go from an idea to publication. The other members of the editorial board are divided between the US and several European countries, especially France. I won't post a link because of forum rules.

ok, this is going to seem like a smart-alec question, but it's the opposite, a completely dumb question...what is the value of knowing this, when you play guitar and bass, not keyboards or any other instrument? on guitar, you play a pattern and then move the pattern to whatever fret you need and the sharps and flats take care of themselves. if i need a note, it's part of a shape.

i know that there probably is a huge advantage to knowing about the circle of 5ths, it's just that i am so ignorant of theory and etc that it's hard for me to understand what use it is. i want to go deeper into this, but it's much like a blind man trying to learn to drive a semi. i know there's things out there i need to know about, but i can't see them.

The circle of fifths has some bearing in practical application (i.e. the way music moves) but it's biggest boon is as a study tool.

1. The circle of fifths can lead to a quicker understanding of learning practical harmony--i.e. major scale harmony, knowing what chords belong to what keys...

... Which is (2.) useful if you encounter a song that has some oddball, not in the key chords. Sometimes the box shapes don't work for everything...yeah, you could lay out there, but sometimes that oddbal chord is the most colorful sound

3. A better understanding of what notes are "flat and sharp" in each key will make playing any scale in any position easier. Breaks you out of the box if you know your fretboard (which is also essential)

I could go on, but my guess is you were looking for practical, use this when I play options as opposed to stuff you'd have to study?

sure its ALL mathematical... everything can be broken down to mathamatical terms.

but as a songwriter, guitarist and singer for 40 years, i dont want approach music (or anything) from a mathematical standpoint.

i play music because its pretty and sincere and represents certain truths, to me. ive always approached it from this angle (also mathematical).

but, to me... mathematics is cold and calculating (pun intended).


rand z

The more tools in your toolbox can only be a good thing, an advantage to knowing these types of connections is that it can reveal new paths for your creative spirit to explore.

sure its ALL mathematical... everything can be broken down to mathamatical terms.

but as a songwriter, guitarist and singer for 40 years, i dont want approach music (or anything) from a mathematical standpoint.

i play music because its pretty and sincere and represents certain truths, to me. ive always approached it from this angle (also mathematical).

but, to me... mathematics is cold and calculating (pun intended).


rand z

Who said approach the music from a mathematical standpoint?

When you have all that feeling and mojo oozing from your fingers and you play E to B your still playing a fifth.:rolleyes:

One thing I have found about music theory is that once you have elements of it in your head, even if it does not present immediate benefits, over time things will sink in and you will realize how much it did benefit you.

You know how when you practice something over and over and the progress seems to be either very slow or not at all, then one day you realize "wow" and you are so much better at it than you were when you started practicing it? Learn whatever you can and let it percolate in the brain. Even if you don't try to apply it, if you have it in the back of your mind somewhere there will be little epiphanies later. The brain works in mysterious ways and music is a conduit for channeling thoughts, especially when the thoughts are on music!

[QUOTE=thunderbyrd;3018075]ok, this is going to seem like a smart-alec question, but it's the opposite, a completely dumb question...what is the value of knowing this, when you play guitar and bass, not keyboards or any other instrument? on guitar, you play a pattern and then move the pattern to whatever fret you need and the sharps and flats take care of themselves. if i need a note, it's part of a shape.

[QUOTE]

I agree. It probably won't make me a faster or more precise guitar player. BUT...since I play in a band with other musicians who DON'T PLAY GUITAR, it will help me communicate with them better. It's like I have been living in Portugal and just learned to speak Portuguese...well, kinda. :)

I had a circle of fifths lightbulb moment involving chords a long time ago:

Say you have a sequence of dom 7th chords in the circle of 5ths:

A7 D7 G7 C7

Try playing just their skeletons (3rd + 7th):

xx56xx xx45xx xx34xx xx23xx

Notice a pattern? In words, the 3rd leads you to the next chord's 7th and vice versa.

I had a circle of fifths lightbulb moment involving chords a long time ago:

Say you have a sequence of dom 7th chords in the circle of 5ths:

A7 D7 G7 C7

Try playing just their skeletons (3rd + 7th):

xx56xx xx45xx xx34xx xx23xx

Notice a pattern? In words, the 3rd leads you to the next chord's 7th and vice versa.

Yeah, this is a very efficient way of going through the circle of 5ths that are dom 7ths. Say start on Bb 4th string and E 3rd string. These are part of the C7 chord (also part of the F#7 chord, but that's another story). Go down on fret to A and Eb, which are part of the F7 chord. Then down again to Ab and D, part of the Bb7 chord.

ok, this is going to seem like a smart-alec question, but it's the opposite, a completely dumb question...what is the value of knowing this, when you play guitar and bass, not keyboards or any other instrument? on guitar, you play a pattern and then move the pattern to whatever fret you need and the sharps and flats take care of themselves. if i need a note, it's part of a shape.

i know that there probably is a huge advantage to knowing about the circle of 5ths, it's just that i am so ignorant of theory and etc that it's hard for me to understand what use it is. i want to go deeper into this, but it's much like a blind man trying to learn to drive a semi. i know there's things out there i need to know about, but i can't see them.

It is important because of the way our brains work. If you read this Wikipdia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function), you'll get the gist of it (don't let the $5 words get in the way).

If you rely on only part of your brain to do the job, your just setting yourself up for confusion, frustration and stagnation. The analytical and emotional portions of your brain need to work in concert (yeah, cheap pun intended) for the best results.

Acquiring knowledge can only be beneficial. Ignorance, on the other hand...

What is important, is to be aware of the context of how this all comes together. To simplify; practice time and performance time. Giving the reigns to the wrong portions of your brain at inappropriate times is bound to bring less than satisfactory results.

---

And yeah as emu! has pointed out, getting a cheap keyboard will put you on the fast track in conceptualizing your musical knowledge.

As far as the circle of fifths/fourths, it is pretty much the Rosetta Stone of musical knowledge. Get a poster of it, slap it on your music room wall. You won't be sorry.

It is important because of the way our brains work. If you read this Wikipdia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function), you'll get the gist of it.


OMG, does anyone else here only use one side of their brain?!

I love light bulb moments. Almost as good as sex.........well not really :lol:

I'm glad I can play and enjoy my insincere music.

i think we're getting a little carried away with this... only stating what works for me.

but, good luck!


rand z

OMG, does anyone else here only use one side of their brain?!

Side :confused:

The heck with all than new fangled cerebrum stuff: If the medula oblongada was good enough then it's good enough now :mrgreen:

i think we're getting a little carried away with this... only stating what works for me.

but, good luck!

rand z

I'm just being a smart ass, but it's true that I don't think knowlege deters in any way from a musician's feel or sincerity.

interesting, but i dont want the music i play to be mathematical...

interesting, melodic and with great feeling and soul..... yes.

but, not mathematical.


rand z

I agree with not wanting the mathematics part, and I agree that i want my music to be interesting and (often) melodic. But I don't agree with the great feeling and soul part. Music is often more interesting when that is left out...

This is probably nothing new to you theory buffs, but to me it was EYE OPENING! Just by memorizing the cirle of 5ths, I could instantly know what notes where flattened in any key.

Very cool! So great when these lightbulb moments happen. I love it when they happen with material that I've been working with for months trying to un-crack, then suddenly, it opens up and understanding comes. Very beautiful feeling...

The circle of fifths is beautiful and simple. As you move around the circle, you add a sharp or flat (depending on which way you travel around the circle).

Moving clockwise, you add a sharp note for each key. The notes that are sharped occur in the following order - FCGDAEB
C - no sharps
G - 1 sharp (F#)
D - 2 sharps (F#, C#)
A - 3 sharps (F#, C#, G#)
E - 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#)
B - 5 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#)
F# - 6 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E# (F))

As you move counter-clockwise, you add a flat for each key. The notes that are flatted occur in the following order - BEADGCF (reverse of the order for sharp keys).
C - no flats
F - 1 flat (Bb)
Bb - 2 flats (Bb, Eb)
Eb - 3 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab)
Ab - 4 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db)
Db - 5 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb)
Gb - 6 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb (B))

Memorize the order of the keys on the circle, and the order of sharps / flats (Sharps FCGDAEB / Flats BEADGCF) and you'll be a long way down the road...

sure its ALL mathematical... everything can be broken down to mathamatical terms.

but as a songwriter, guitarist and singer for 40 years, i dont want approach music (or anything) from a mathematical standpoint.

i play music because its pretty and sincere and represents certain truths, to me. ive always approached it from this angle (also mathematical).

but, to me... mathematics is cold and calculating (pun intended).


rand z

Could you explain to me, please (because I hear what you've said here all the time) what it is that makes you believe that broadening your understanding of music will somehow limit -- or even cripple -- your approach to songwriting?

I've never heard anyone worry that learning grammar will hurt their writing. Or that learning color theory will hurt their painting.

What is it about musical knowledge that makes it seem, to some, anathema to musical creativity?

woah!

im just saying what works for me. i dont consider myself a scientist or mathematician; just a crusty ole guitar player, etc. whos been around and has done it for quite a few years.

nothing wrong with some education... i have a ba in english and another degree in communications and im a big proponent of learning. i simply do not want to approach my own music from a conscious mathematical direction.

my heroes (among many) are john lee hooker, son house, muddy, buddy, clapton... well, you get the idea. i dont think, and i may be wrong, that any of them centered their creativity around music theory, to create their art. and though i have studied scales, some harmony, arranging and musicology, i tend to stay away from it when writing and performing. i go for more of a zen-like approach, which manifests itself, hopefully, in pulling from past knowledge and experience to create, without analysis or conscious thought.

thats all.

i certainly didnt mean to offend anyone who does. hopefully, this final post will end any confusion.

(btw, very sorry to have stolen this thread.)


rand z

Another important reason to know the circle of fifths is understanding key signatures on sheet music.
Most sheet music does not DIRECTLY name the Letter Key of the song but tells you the key by the number of flat or sharp symbols written next to the treble cleft.
Example: 3 # [sharp] symbols next to treble cleft tells one that the song is in the key of A [a very common key for guitar players]
Now I know that the 1-4-5 is A-D-E and the RM 6th is F#, the 7th is G# flated 1/2 step to G.
I can play a whole lot of music with this BASIC information.

Keyboard players like flats so most church hymnals have most songs written in flats.
I was at a Gaither Homecoming Concert Series and Bill walked up to Gordon the piano player who is blind and told him the next song they were doing was in 3 Flats. If you know the circle of fifths from memory then you immediately know what key has 3 Flats.
I prefer dividing the circle in 2 halves from C and know that clockwise count sharps and counter-clockwise count flats.

Music is Numbers and there is no way to avoid that fact.

i dont think, and i may be wrong, that any of them centered their creativity around music theory, to create their art. and though i have studied scales, some harmony, arranging and musicology, i tend to stay away from it when writing and performing.

Hi randz - I know you werent trolling for a reply but this comes up soooo often - Im going to have a gentle lunge at it...because you make a valid point about the difference between knowing and creating but...

I'm not sure why - but there seems to be a recurring (mis)conception in this theory forum that polarises people into those that know theory* and those that dont.

Once this division is established the next order of events seems to imply that those who know theory then guide their creative process exclusively via abstract forms or formulae. Conversely, if you dont know theory then all of your creative output is delivered to you via the cosmos.:lol:

I've never met a musician (who can play) who doesnt have a fundamental understanding of the music they play...there's a surprise! Regardless of whether the language used conforms to a globally accepted terminology or a personal way of regarding the concepts - the business of creating music is basically the same - except, that those who understand a language of music theory, can then communicate with others who know the same language of music theory and voila! - You can then appropriate ideas and information from each other comprehensively and perhaps even read music. This applies to Western Classical concepts, Indian music , Jazz terminology, Nashville nomenclature, the list goes on...most of the working players I know have a deep knowledge of some of this stuff and a working knowledge of all of it depending on their speciality.

I have a pretty good grasp of theory - I teach it to undergrads, but when I'm actually playing I dont 'centre' my music' around it anymore than you do or a blues guitarist does.

I might centre my practice and learning around an idea that is theoretically presented - that could be me reading dots on a page or just some tab on the internet or use compositional techniques to develop ideas when I write music - but this isnt exclusively the domain of music 'theory' - you can adopt principles of development, form and mutation from a range of disciplines - including mathematics, fine arts, writing and even sport.

They all have their own language of 'theory' - but the creative process doesnt 'centre' around that theory - it just informs it - and before the fact.
I cant abstractly analyse what Im playing while Im playing - that would paralyze me and draw the concentration away from what Im doing - however I could explain to you what Ive just played in the accepted language of music - thats a different thing.

You imply an important distiction between the learning of concepts and the application of it here. But if there's an assumption that those who know theory , then centre their music around it ; and those who dont have the facility for the langauage of theory , are drawing on some exclusive creative wellspring - I dont accept that - and history doesnt support it either.








*or rather have an understanding of musical fundamentals in theoretical terms.

I'm not sure why - but there seems to be a recurring (mis)conception in this theory forum that polarises people into those that know theory* and those that dont.

Once this division is established the next order of events seems to imply that those who know theory then guide their creative process exclusively via abstract forms or formulae. Conversely, if you dont know theory then all of your creative output is delivered to you via the cosmos.:lol:

I've never met a musician (who can play) who doesnt have a fundamental understanding of the music they play...there's a surprise! Regardless of whether the language used conforms to a globally accepted terminology or a personal way of regarding the concepts - the business of creating music is basically the same - except, that those who understand a language of music theory, can then communicate with others who know the same language of music theory and voila! - You can then appropriate ideas and information from each other comprehensively and perhaps even read music. This applies to Western Classical concepts, Indian music , Jazz terminology, Nashville nomenclature, the list goes on...most of the working players I know have a deep knowledge of some of this stuff and a working knowledge of all of it depending on their speciality.


Well put :!:

Hi randz - ............

I"m sure I speak for many of us when I say "thank you".

One of my favorite exercises when learning a riff is to play it in the the cycle of 5th's, then 4th's.

"and those who dont have the facility for the langauage of theory , are drawing on some exclusive creative wellspring - I dont accept that - and history doesnt support it either."

consider robert johnson, and those like him and before him, who either came from africa directly, or were their descendants. almost none could read or write, or knew anything about the theory or mechanics of western music.

some played on wire stretched between two nails pounded into a wall... a diddly bow. others on crude instruments i.e guitars and/or banjos made of cigar boxes and animal hide, and string with gut. many had to invent their own tunings from what sounded consonant (or dissonant) to their ear. no formal training, and some, learned in an absolute vacuum.

most were illiterate and many itinerate, and wrote of their fears, hopes, passions, dreams and demons. was it an elusive or creative wellspring? certainly not for me to say, i couldnt realistically know that with any certainty... perhaps it was just emotions, feelings and an innate desire to express those feelings into music through the venacular of those times.

and did they know what they were doing, theoretically? did they know the difference between an A or C chord? did they care? what did they base their creativity on? was it the circle of 5ths... or something else?

elusive, creative wellspring... you dont have to accept it.

i do, because i want to believe there are things we cant see, understand, or explain... and obviously so do many others; most world religions are based on it.

(btw, bob dylan claims that he didnt write his best songs, as do many other songwriters.)


rand z

But is Robert Johnson more creative than Bach? Brad Mehldau more creative than Errol Garner?

I think creative people are going to be creative no matter what they know previously--but some might need to acquire more knowledge along the way to get the sounds in their head out.

There's certainly people who haven't been helped by musical knowledge, but I've never seen evidence of someone hurt by it--nor have I seen anyone "helped" by not knowing.

Very cool! So great when these lightbulb moments happen. I love it when they happen with material that I've been working with for months trying to un-crack, then suddenly, it opens up and understanding comes. Very beautiful feeling...

The circle of fifths is beautiful and simple. As you move around the circle, you add a sharp or flat (depending on which way you travel around the circle).

Moving clockwise, you add a sharp note for each key. The notes that are sharped occur in the following order - FCGDAEB
C - no sharps
G - 1 sharp (F#)
D - 2 sharps (F#, C#)
A - 3 sharps (F#, C#, G#)
E - 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#)
B - 5 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#)
F# - 6 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E# (F))

As you move counter-clockwise, you add a flat for each key. The notes that are flatted occur in the following order - BEADGCF (reverse of the order for sharp keys).
C - no flats
F - 1 flat (Bb)
Bb - 2 flats (Bb, Eb)
Eb - 3 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab)
Ab - 4 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db)
Db - 5 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb)
Gb - 6 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb (B))

Memorize the order of the keys on the circle, and the order of sharps / flats (Sharps FCGDAEB / Flats BEADGCF) and you'll be a long way down the road...

ryokan, your post sparked a lightbulb moment for me, though the light didn't go off until just now! That order thing will help me; I've been putting off learning just which notes are flatted and sharped.

My sister (R.I.P.) tried for thirty years to explain to me about the circle of fifths, and so did several other people along the way. One day not long ago the choir teacher here at our school drew about three slices of its pie on my board, and blammo! I saw it. His drawing is still up there (it's kind of an out-of-the-way board,) along with a few notes of mine.

You're right: it's beautiful and simple.

Believe it or not , you have to use double flats, double sharps Cb, B#, E# and Fb sometimes to be "theoretically correct."

Cb diminished seventh chord: Cb Ebb Gbb Bbbb. Yes, children, there really is a triple flat :shock:

Still waiting on my moment...

But is Robert Johnson more creative than Bach? Brad Mehldau more creative than Errol Garner?

I think creative people are going to be creative no matter what they know previously--but some might need to acquire more knowledge along the way to get the sounds in their head out.

There's certainly people who haven't been helped by musical knowledge, but I've never seen evidence of someone hurt by it--nor have I seen anyone "helped" by not knowing.

So true. But a lot of guitar players (usually of the blooze persuasion) seem to think that knowing something about music will rob them of their "soul" and/or "mojo". :roll:

I play in a band with four horn players. A knowledge of the fundamentals make communication a lot easier,especially when were changing parts, keys, etc. Plus, when they print out charts I get a copy too which makes learning the songs easier and quicker than listening to the recording over and over (though I probably still learn 50% of my parts that way).

In my other band the guitarist knows nothing. As he once told me, "I play what I feel, in the moment." That's all well and good, but he's constantly playing notes that don't fit the changes - not purposely "out", but simply wrong notes.

So true. But a lot of guitar players (usually of the blooze persuasion) seem to think that knowing something about music will rob them of their "soul" and/or "mojo". :roll:


But what if, at midnight, on the crossroads, they meet ... Walter Piston?!

In my other band the guitarist knows nothing. As he once told me, "I play what I feel, in the moment." That's all well and good, but he's constantly playing notes that don't fit the changes - not purposely "out", but simply wrong notes.

Reminds of one time when I helped a buddy run a blues jam...this cool female singer was there, and we were going to do "Stormy Monday," but her key was something like Bb or whatever...

Well, there's this hotshot guitarist there, and everybody's saying "This cat's good, get him up there," so we do, and right as I open my wouth to tell him what key we're taking the song in he says "I play what I feel, man."

He then proceeded to "feel" an A minor pentatonic over the whole thing. Was he pissed afterwards too! Band "didn't know how to play Stormy Monday" he said...

Reminds of one time when I helped a buddy run a blues jam...this cool female singer was there, and we were going to do "Stormy Monday," but her key was something like Bb or whatever...

Well, there's this hotshot guitarist there, and everybody's saying "This cat's good, get him up there," so we do, and right as I open my wouth to tell him what key we're taking the song in he says "I play what I feel, man."

He then proceeded to "feel" an A minor pentatonic over the whole thing. Was he pissed afterwards too! Band "didn't know how to play Stormy Monday" he said...

Oh man, "that guy" is the worst. Let me guess, he was playing a strat :mrgreen:

well of course he was.

But to be fair, I think I was the only one without a strat the whole night. I think the bar must have been next to "Strats 'R Us"

... and some, learned in an absolute vacuum.


Baloney. Unless they are raised in a world without any music at all -- no church singing, no field singers, no lullabies from mom, no gang of kids chanting rhymes, no drunken uncles howling on Saturday night, no radio, no tent shows, no itinerant musicians passing through, no birds -- nobody learns music in a complete vacuum.

Kaspar Hauser, anyone?

As slowpinky wrote, musicians (who can really play) understand theory. Some of them might not be able to articulate it, but their playing demonstrates it. I'd go so far as to say that what we think of as natural musical talent is simply an instinctive grasp of theory.

(btw, bob dylan cashes the royalty checks for all his best songs, as do many other songwriters.)

I'd go so far as to say that what we think of as natural musical talent is simply an instinctive grasp of theory.

Agree 100%

... nobody learns music in a complete vacuum.

Well ... there's always Williams Syndrome.

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Well ... there's always Williams Syndrome.


Vacuums must be different in Switzerland :lol:

[EDIT] Just so there's no misunderstanding -- the subjects of that video don't appear to be in anything like a musical vacuum. They're being fed musical input and influence -- right down to the instruments they play, which are designed to perform within the confines of western musical theory.

nice.

Vacuums must be different in Switzerland :lol:



Different vacuum or not, Williams Syndrome studies show that there is something innate and special about music in the human mind that is spooky cosmic weird.

But what if, at midnight, on the crossroads, they meet ... Walter Piston?!

Dang! I was hoping it was Arnold Schoenberg!


and did they know what they were doing, theoretically? did they know the difference between an A or C chord? did they care? what did they base their creativity on? was it the circle of 5ths... or something else?

I absolutely believe 'they' knew what they were doing if 'they' were any good. 'They' may have a had a personal language - none of 'them' may have known what the word 'chord' meant or cycle for that matter - but thats actually not the point - Robert Johnson knew what a chord was and understood the differences between different chords - even if he decribed them in his own way or simply described them to himself .Thats the way the mind works. Conversely an undergrad music student might know the word 'counterpoint' without recognising it when they hear it or being able to execute it

I've read an interview with Ali Farka Toure where he describes the structure for one of his songs with fanstastic imagery - or examples from W A Mathieu of how Northern Indian music regards the essence of certain tones as having a type of 'blood'.

The etymology of terms in Western Music has the same pedigree - but you have to dig to find it - because Western Music has been subject to (arguably) more and more radical experimentation - and the existing language has struggled to keep up!
.

Lets not confuse 'terminology' with fundamental knowledge.


.. you dont have to accept it.

i do, because i want to believe there are things we cant see, understand, or explain... and obviously so do many others; most world religions are based on it.

Fair enough - one's personal imagination - freedom to interpret the world is inviolable in my book. Only , I dont see musical knowledge per se as the instrument of the imaginations undoing. Just a means by which it may enlightened, informed , possibly transformed.

Different vacuum or not, Williams Syndrome studies show that there is something innate and special about music in the human mind that is spooky cosmic weird.

I'm with you 100% on there being something innate and special about music. It is one of the truly magical forces in the world. All the animals -- whales, dogs, birds, people, whatever -- that can sing, do. For themselves and each other. How is that not magic?

The older I get, the weirder music and our relationship to it seem. Mysterious, absolutely. But spooky, frightening? Not to me.

In my experience, the more I learn about music, the more I have those "Aha!!!" moments the OP wrote about. And the more mysterious and magical it becomes. (Same with literature. And painting. And biology. And -- honest -- coding.) Understanding -- every little bit of it -- is beautiful. I posted my original question because, although I realize everyone is unique (just like everyone else), I cannot see that championing ignorance ever helps anyone and I am truly curious as to why anyone would do it.

That said, it looked very much to me as if you posted the video about Williams Syndrome as a response to/refutation of my claim that "... nobody learns music in a complete vacuum." I'm not seeing it. It looks more like all the video's Williams Syndrome subjects are being fed a healthy, happy diet of music by other people who are passionate about applying and broadening our understanding of its magic.

That said, it looked very much to me as if you posted the video about Williams Syndrome as a response to/refutation of my claim that "... nobody learns music in a complete vacuum." I'm not seeing it.

The point I was trying to make is that in Williams Syndrome individuals music is innate. They don't learn it, they know it. They are in the moment with music. Indeed it is the greatest expression of their being.

(The other huge takeaway is how their passion completely trumps any issue with technique!)

The point I was trying to make is that in Williams Syndrome individuals music is innate. They don't learn it, they know it. They are in the moment with music. Indeed it is the greatest expression of their being.


I understand the point you're trying to make. Again, no argument that music is innate to people. But not Western or Chinese or Indian or African music -- just a general affinity for music. One way or another, most people learn more or less of their own culture's (and, sometimes, others') tonalities and structures.

I don't see a video of someone (hesitantly) picking out the melody to Jingle Bells on a keyboard as a demonstration of anything "spooky cosmic weird." We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. :razz:

Granted, viewed in juxtaposition to their general disability, the relatively pedestrian musicality of these folks might seem phenomenal. Certainly their uninhibited enthusiasm for music (and conversation) is a joy to see. But, as Mr. Levitan points out at around 9:30, "They learn that, when they want to create a certain sound, their finger has to do this and then this and then this on the piano." That they are able to learn music and not other, seemingly much simpler things is truly fascinating.

I see no claim or evidence in that video or on the Williams Syndrome Association's web site (http://www.williams-syndrome.org/) (or Google Health or the NIH site) that suggests people who suffer from Williams Syndrome learn music in a complete vacuum.

Unless, of course, vacuums are different in Switzerland. :lol:

Steel Drums are literally tuned in a circle of Fifths.

If you ever get the chance, check them out.

I had a similar lightbulb moment when i was in fifth grade. i realized a pattern in square numbers: 1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, etc...

01 + 03 = 04
04 + 05 = 09
09 + 07 = 16
16 + 09 = 25
25 + 11 = 36
36 + 13 = 49
49 + 15 = 64
64 + 17 = 81
81 + 19 = 100
(put the "0" in "01" so it all aligns)

the first column is an initial square number, the last column is the following square number, and in the middle column you just count by twos starting with an odd number.

i was just sitting on my back porch thinking when i came up with that. i thought i was a genius. but they do teach that to you in school later on.

No one ever claimed that their music is better because they don't take a mathematic approach, it was just a statement. but i have run into people who go on and on about the soul in music, and these people are usually adverse to mathematics, citing it as "cold". so i do think there is a stereotypical type of musician that thinks like this but he never claimed superiority or anything so let him just state his writing technique.

math itself is not cold. maybe the room you learned it in was. math is just a way of cutting things up and comparing them to get a better sense of their nature and purpose and their purposes to come. people will say "math is everything" or "numbers are everything" but its not true. Everything can be numbered and measured and math is our universally united sense of doing that.

you don't have to know music theory or be good at math be a great musician. But you need to know music theory to verbally communicate with musicians. It's dramatically more effective. I understand not wanting to take a mathematical approach, especially if you're also a lyricist. Some people want to see if they can syncopate melodies and do cool tricks etc. Kind of like a laser show sense of awesomeness. Things can be organized in a way that's mind blowing. Some people like to see how much of their heart they can put into a single note. A display of strength or vulnerability kind of awesome.

maybe the argument you wanted to, or should have made, is that your intent with music is not to wow people by technique like a shredder, but to reach them intimately.

and as far as playing E to B and it being a fifth whether you know it or not... not true. it's just what humans named it. when a dog hears it he doesn't know its the fifth step in a man made system or what the note is called. he (probably) knows how it makes him feel though. what can't be denied is that the wave frequency of wave frequency of a B is approx 150% higher (a 3:2 ratio) than an E. Like any perfect fifth would be. But their names are not facts. a name or label never is.

Hey Joe by Hendrix= the main part of the verse of the song is the "circle of fifths".

E C G D A E