Plastic Binding Glues - an Informal Test

Just thought I would put this out there to see what others thought.

I'm at a point in my most recent build where I'm messing around with some plastic binding. Specifically, I'm using some of the plastic stuff StewMac sells. I'm also using the Weld-On cement they sell to glue it into place. I was running a bit low on it - I figured I had enough, but didn't want to run out with the last few inches remaining, and I didn't have time to order a new tube, so I looked into alternatives. I've not done plastic binding before, but some research showed that many use CA for binding - I wasn't sure that would play nice with the Weld-On cement, so I looked into other plastic glues that might be similar to the Weld-On.

I read on this forum somewhere that Testor's model glue was for all intents the same thing as Weld-On and could be used in it's stead - so I picked a bottle up at the local hobby store and by happenstance I was in the hardware store I noticed they had Duco plastic model cement, so I picked up a tube of that as well. I knew each would work well for gluing plastic to itself, but besides being a bit of a skeptic having not done much in the way of gluing plastic to wood in the past I didn't know how each would hold onto wood... So I set up a little test to see. I glued a short strip of binding to a piece of beech with each glue and let it set for 24 hours. The contenders were, in order:

#1: Weld-On
#2: Duco Plastic Model Cement
#3: Testor's Model Cement
#4: Loctite CA

http://norsewoodsmith.com/files/images/casters/fill/gluetest.jpg

First thing I noticed - the three plastic cements are NOT all equal. They each smell distinctly different, and carry different material warnings on their labels.

Now - this is wholly subjective, and I don't claim to be any kind of expert - my test was simply to pull the binding strip off of the wood to see how well each held on. For a rating system I'll use a 1 to 10 scale - let's say that this was a wood to wood joint done with wood glue as being the standard for a score of 10 and 1 would be a complete failure. My ratings for each glue would be:

#1: Weld-On
My rating: 5. It came off fairly easily, and while I wouldn't say it impressed me, I would think it to be sufficient enough of a hold to work (good because it's sold for that purpose!).

#2: Duco Plastic Model Cement
My rating: 3. It came off more easily than the Weld-On. I don't think I would use this stuff.

#3: Testor's Model Cement
My rating: 2. This stuff barely held. I definitely would not use it for binding.

#4: Loctite CA
My rating: 8. The CA held just about as well as I think you could expect any glue to hold plastic binding in place on a wood base. It wasn't as good as a wood to wood joint with wood glue - but the joint was very strong.

My take - The strongest was by far the CA glue - it's short working time would enable you to only glue a few inches at a time at best, but I think that's what I will use next time.

The Weld-On worked also - and while I wouldn't call it a "strong" joint, it does the job. I did end up using the Weld-On for this project, but was ultimately disappointed - I ended up fixing gaps where it just didn't hold well - using CA.

The other two - they just didn't hold nearly well enough for me to even consider using them.

I wonder how hide glue works with plastic? I should have tried that as well... hmmm

Leif

Excellent contribution to the forum. I have often wondered about cheap box store glues for binding, but I never want to risk it and always end up driving across town and buying this extra thick maxi cure CA glue, specifically designed for plastic to wood bonding.

This stuff is strong. I use is for a lot of little repairs, and it welds binding to itself giving a nice seamless look.


http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/hlc/hlc112.htm

I used CA glue for my binding, and I noticed that the blue dye didn't take on the wood that had CA over it. It was inevitable that a little spilled over the edges when I was making sure the binding had a good hold. I was using RIT dye (usually used for fabrics)

Anybody notice anything similar with these other adhesives and dyes/paints/lacquers? The CA was deceiving in that it dried completely clear, I thought I was good to go. I never actually really thought to test the dye of wood that had been glued. Oh well. I just covered it with a black burst edge anyway.

I'm curious how CA stacks up against melted binding in acetone. I've only bound one body that way, but it turned out pretty well, and filling gaps is really easy. I haven't used CA yet.

I never used anything other than dollar store super glue (CA) and white Stewmac CA glue. The dollar store super glue works great. I use both gel and liquid types together. Liquid wicks into gaps and gel works well in general because it doesn't drip much. Lots of blue masking tape is essential.

I get these little 3ml tubes, 2 for $1.55 - one tube does a three ply body, and if I have any left over it goes in the bin because they rarely seem to keep well - but for a buck fiddy...

Another hint is to wear disposable medical gloves.

I think Hackworth may have hit on the secret that I thought I'd discovered.

For the last few binding jobs I've done I used Super Glue Gel. FIRST I coat the channel with the CA glue and let it dry, then use the same glue to attach the binding.

I used the loctite CA glue for my one and only binding so far. And so far, so good. Mine was the thin kind, and yeah, I did a few inches at a time.

I concur with the thoughts on CA.

I get these little 3ml tubes, 2 for $1.55 - one tube does a three ply body, and if I have any left over it goes in the bin because they rarely seem to keep well - but for a buck fiddy...

Another hint is to wear disposable medical gloves.

Just don't glue the gloves to the guitar, tear them off, then glue the gloves to your fingers.


http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm308/coltwknight/Custom%20Guitar%20Building%20101/IMG00435-20100501-1655.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm308/coltwknight/Custom%20Guitar%20Building%20101/IMG00437-20100501-1656.jpg

Neater is always better. The more I work with more intricate guitars, I find myself becoming more aware of tiny details like cleanliness. If you don't make a mess, you don't have to clean up a mess.

I use this stuff. This bottle is nice, a bottle usually lasts me a few months, and unlike tubes, I don't have to worry about it getting hard.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm308/coltwknight/Custom%20Guitar%20Building%20101/IMG00433-20100501-1640.jpg

I used CA glue for my binding, and I noticed that the blue dye didn't take on the wood that had CA over it. It was inevitable that a little spilled over the edges when I was making sure the binding had a good hold. I was using RIT dye (usually used for fabrics)

Anybody notice anything similar with these other adhesives and dyes/paints/lacquers? The CA was deceiving in that it dried completely clear, I thought I was good to go. I never actually really thought to test the dye of wood that had been glued. Oh well. I just covered it with a black burst edge anyway.

+1
That's the problem with CA and wood... it penetrates and hard to remove without deep sanding.
I highly recommend Acetone. It melts the binding material (both modern plastics and old Celluloid) and the bond is stronger than the binding itself.
It also cleans well with slight surface sanding.

I read a review on Stew Mac that said Stew Macs binding didn't work with the acetone trick, anyone else experienced this?

I read a review on Stew Mac that said Stew Macs binding didn't work with the acetone trick, anyone else experienced this?

Yup - I have a feeling Stew Mac's bindings are HIPS, not ABS.

Both styrenes, but a little different.

I read a review on Stew Mac that said Stew Macs binding didn't work with the acetone trick, anyone else experienced this?

That wouldn't surprise me...

I'm not surprised the model cement didn't work, as they took the good chemicals out of the stuff after too many boys melted their brains in the 60's while putting together their hobby kit planes and cars. Actually I think the paint was nitro for those things too.

That wouldn't surprise me...

Stew Mac are in the business of selling guitar parts and if they can sell a part that requires another part that they also sell - they'll engineer this to happen.

Engineering need is the engine of capitalism. I could buy a nice 2010 Gibson ... but would it have that "Vintage Tone" I've been told I need? :mrgreen:

+1
That's the problem with CA and wood... it penetrates and hard to remove without deep sanding.
I highly recommend Acetone. It melts the binding material (both modern plastics and old Celluloid) and the bond is stronger than the binding itself.
It also cleans well with slight surface sanding.

I used CA glue for my binding, and I noticed that the blue dye didn't take on the wood that had CA over it. It was inevitable that a little spilled over the edges when I was making sure the binding had a good hold. I was using RIT dye (usually used for fabrics)

Anybody notice anything similar with these other adhesives and dyes/paints/lacquers? The CA was deceiving in that it dried completely clear, I thought I was good to go. I never actually really thought to test the dye of wood that had been glued. Oh well. I just covered it with a black burst edge anyway.

I think I saw Ron Kirn do a stained top and binding this way:

First he stained and sealed the top with a coat or 2 of sealer after staining.
He then lightly sanded flat and routed the binding channel.
Then fit the binding and cleaned and scraped.
Finally he finished as per normal.

I copied this on my build and it worked perfectly. And I used CA for the binding after staining with water soluble dyes.
Something to think about.

Cheers.

I liked Duco when it was it the green tube it worked better than the newer stuff. The last plastic binding I used Weld-On it worked fine. I use a lot of glue on binding I'd rather have a bit os a mess than an unsure glue job. Now I only use wood bindings they never shrink look good never worry about if the glue will hold.

I'm not surprised the model cement didn't work, as they took the good chemicals out of the stuff after too many boys melted their brains in the 60's while putting together their hobby kit planes and cars. Actually I think the paint was nitro for those things too.

I distinctly remember when model glues went from the stuff you had to keep a window open to use (unless you liked that sort of thing :wink: ) to the 'citrus scent' crap that wouldn't hold anything together.

I'm not surprised the model cement didn't work, as they took the good chemicals out of the stuff after too many boys melted their brains in the 60's while putting together their hobby kit planes and cars. Actually I think the paint was nitro for those things too.

I distinctly remember when model glues went from the stuff you had to keep a window open to use (unless you liked that sort of thing :wink: ) to the 'citrus scent' crap that wouldn't hold anything together.

Chemicals, 60's yeah kind of starting to remember now

I read a review on Stew Mac that said Stew Macs binding didn't work with the acetone trick, anyone else experienced this?

I'm adding on here because this is a useful thread that will
likely be used as a reference.

During the past year I've melted both black and cream binding
from Stewart-MacDonald in acetone. I'm not sure about
using acetone as a "glue" when binding, though, if that's
what "trick" refers to.

I have always used polyethylene bags... sandwich bags... for "gloves" when working with CA. CA will not adhere to it.

Perhaps I'll locate some poly gloves this afternoon... I swear I see foodservers using them all the over the place. ...Gotta be a cheap place to buy them... now for the perpetual find the XXX size problem.

I have always used polyethylene bags... sandwich bags... for "gloves" when working with CA. CA will not adhere to it.

Perhaps I'll locate some poly gloves this afternoon... I swear I see foodservers using them all the over the place. ...Gotta be a cheap place to buy them... now for the perpetual find the XXX size problem.
Interesting. Many of the petrol (gas) stations in the UK have a dispenser with free poly gloves next to the diesel pump. I may just pick up a couple of pairs next time I'm filling up.

I'm not surprised the model cement didn't work, as they took the good chemicals out of the stuff after too many boys melted their brains in the 60's while putting together their hobby kit planes and cars. Actually I think the paint was nitro for those things too.

Ok, that explains a lot...I had a home room full of models back in the day.

Allparts have ABS and PVC binding last time I looked.

I was able to use acetone only with ABS on my first build, and it was fantastic in combination with dissolved binding for filling gaps. Ya gotta be so careful if you're using CA especially if you're trying to dye a burst afterwards.. I bound the back with CA and somehow it got everywhere (I know exactly how, but I ain't tellin' :wink:). I had to paint the back black, I couldn't sand far enough down to remove the soaked in CA.

After that, I used acetone on the top and it was effortless and neat.

If you do use CA, you could just put all the color in the finish, and not try to dye the wood directly.

If you do use CA, you could just put all the color in the finish, and not try to dye the wood directly.

unless you are very skilled..... do not dye the wood.... most dyes will dissolve in the presence of CA. Since many of the plastics used in binding is also dissolved by the solvents present in CA, the color soaks "unto" the binding and is impossible to remove (simply).

If you dye it after the binding is applied you have to be sure the dye will not be absorbed by the binding otherwise excessive scraping is required to remove the plastic that has been contaminated by the dye.

rk

unless you are very skilled..... do not dye the wood.... most dyes will dissolve in the presence of CA. Since many of the plastics used in binding is also dissolved by the solvents present in CA, the color soaks "unto" the binding and is impossible to remove (simply).

If you dye it after the binding is applied you have to be sure the dye will not be absorbed by the binding otherwise excessive scraping is required to remove the plastic that has been contaminated by the dye.

rk

So what do you suggest for a body that is dyed and you want to attach binding to it? Would a sealer coat before routing the binding channel and applying the binding not work?

Hi kwerk. It's good you bring up this issue. So you
used acetone as a "glue" on the front binding? How
did you apply the acetone to the binding?

Using a thicker CA also helps with the problem you mention.
In my challenge build I had almost no CA outside the binding
channel.

I think wiping a little shellac along the sides of the binding
channel would also help with CA absorption in the wood,
but I haven't tried this.

... Ya gotta be so careful if you're using CA especially if you're trying to dye a burst afterwards.. I bound the back with CA and somehow it got everywhere (I know exactly how, but I ain't tellin' :wink:). I had to paint the back black, I couldn't sand far enough down to remove the soaked in CA.

After that, I used acetone on the top and it was effortless and neat.

I think wiping a little shellac along the sides of the binding channel would also help with CA absorption in the wood,
but I haven't tried this.

Sounds like a good thing to try... on scrap... with some failure criteria defined beforehand. You are then gluing the binding to shellac... not wood.

I think wiping a little shellac along the sides of the binding channel would also help with CA absorption in the wood,


Definitely do NOT do that....and definitely do NOT ask me how I know. :mrgreen:

Chicken! C'mon man... spill the beans... it might dissuage your brethren from doing chemistry experiments on the finished product...

And as a reminder... shellac IS bug snot...

Hi kwerk. It's good you bring up this issue. So you
used acetone as a "glue" on the front binding? How
did you apply the acetone to the binding?

Using a thicker CA also helps with the problem you mention.
In my challenge build I had almost no CA outside the binding
channel.

I think wiping a little shellac along the sides of the binding
channel would also help with CA absorption in the wood,
but I haven't tried this.

I used a brush. Firstly I made up a double thickness of binding as I neded it thick for my binding channel, so I made a rig similar to Stewmac's binding laminator. Stuck that together with acetone and brush, then simply brushed acetone onto the binding to stick to the wood. The surface becomes plenty sticky enough to... stick! I used binding in acetone to fill any gaps between corners.

It's great as Gil mentions earlier because it sands so easily, and in conjunction with the dissolved binding can produce a seamless and very easy to clean up and sand result. It's now six months since I bound that guitar and there's no sign the acetone method is anything but the way to go. I would never again use CA based on the results I got from acetone. But that all hinges on your binding being ABS. I can't speak for other plastics except my recent acrylic experiences.

Ash, lets just say it doesn't promote adhesion and leave it at that. :wink:

Maricopa and piece_of_ash -- I said "along the sides of" the
binding channel, not "in" the binding channel.

Maricopa, I guess you're saying that you put shellac in
the channel?

Or, are you saying you put it along the sides of the channel
and the CA that didn't go in the channel soaked deeply
into the wood through the shellac?

Or, are you saying that something else happened?

(Oops, I may be asking you how you know...)

I think wiping a little shellac along the sides of the binding channel would also help with CA absorption in the wood,


Definitely do NOT do that....and definitely do NOT ask me how I know. :mrgreen:

Your right about the Loctite CA.It works very well,the bond is strong,and it sets fast....alomost a little too fast...LOL....but as long as you do 3-4 inches at a time you'll have a great product in the end

Maricopa and piece_of_ash -- I said "along the sides of" the
binding channel, not "in" the binding channel.

Yes, don't get any in the channel. If you decide to put shellac on the edges do it before you even route the channels. I painted some along the edges after I had routed and had a hell of a time even though I didn't directly brush it in the channel.

unless you are very skilled..... do not dye the wood.... most dyes will dissolve in the presence of CA. Since many of the plastics used in binding is also dissolved by the solvents present in CA, the color soaks "unto" the binding and is impossible to remove (simply).

If you dye it after the binding is applied you have to be sure the dye will not be absorbed by the binding otherwise excessive scraping is required to remove the plastic that has been contaminated by the dye.

rk

So I tried adding binding to a dyed guitar and it worked out well with CA glue. The dye didn't creep into the binding at all.

I dyed the top, sealed it, masked it and glued the binding in.