Help! I've got misplaced nuts.

I wonder if I'm the only guy to ever say that? I got a very cool looking inlaid tele for cheap a while ago. I thought it just needed intonation but it just didn't seem to ever intonate properly. It was moving past the ability for the bridge to adjust but still never seeming to get closer to being in tune. Like it wasn't helping the problem. I finally held it face to face with another tele and although the frets lined up the nuts did not. Its about 1/8th to 3/16ths too far away from the bridge (or 1st fret). Anyway to prove it I capo'd the 1st fret and intonated it at 13. It intonated and then played in tune up and down the neck and open chords. I also bought an sx strat recently. It also seems untunable. Same problem only this one the nut is 1/8th too close. Both nuts are the thin set in the neck type nuts. I have no confidence that I could cut a new slot both parallel and within the 1/64th I apparently need to be correct. I was thinking about buying a wider taller nut but grind the bottom away leaving a piece unground in a position that moves the nut forward or back. That way if (when)I screw it up I don't hurt the neck. Any helpful hints to get my nuts back into position? Any better ideas?

I also suspect my short scale sx is off by a very small amount too but I can't measure it. Am I the only guy this happens too?
Thanks for any help.

Don't jump to try and move anything until you've actually measured with greater accuracy than holding it face to face with another neck and lining it up by eye. With some decent measuring scales and a wee bit of math you should be able to measure intervals between any two frets (furthest apart that you can accurately measure preferred) and determine the scale length based on those references. Do this in a few places, then check your nut placement relative to that. Don't trust lining it up by eye though.

Also don't necessarily trust your ear or a tuner on this unless you are fully aware of all the other details that can come in to play here. String height at the nut plays an enormous role in sharpening first position notes, and I guarantee that your guitars came from the factory with nut height way too high. It's common for people to try and compensate for this by moving the nut, but this is often a misguided chasing of a symptom rather than curing of the problem, and can actually introduce more issues while ignoring others.

I've measured hundreds of necks, checking accuracy of fret placement and nut position, and I do indeed find nuts out of place all the time - sometimes intentionally, often times not. It's quite unusual for me to find them much more than .015" out of place in either direction however, and very rare to see them more than .030" out (though not entirely unheard of either). Point is, you need to measure, and this is not a job suitable for eyeballing it.

If can also help if you took note of how the intonation was affected in different regions of the board. If you can keep track of whether notes tend to lean sharp or flat in the 1-4 fret section, than sharp or flat in the 5-9 range, again in the 10-15 section, and again from 16 and up, this can be useful. If you can actually deliver a reliable record of intonation in these four sections, this can be a more reasonable indicator of the sources of your problem (though still open to subjective observations) than lining frets up by eye.

Thanks for the info. I did measure from the 12th fret on a few guitars and the ones that play measure 12 3/4" and the ones that sound off are more or less by about 1/8 to 3/16". This simple thing being off worries me that maybe the frets are just as random. I thought all these guitars would have a jig that cut all the frets and the nut at the same time. Otherwise maybe 1/2 the frets are off by 5 or 10%. I don't even think I have that great an ear so would I even notice that much or would I notice 2% off?
So the capo test at the 1st fret doesn't really prove anything about the nut? I'll do the other tests checking if its sharp or flat up the neck. Do I check all the strings or just a sample string? I seem to notice it usually on the b or g. I remember something about a formula using a rule of 18 to place the frets. I'll need to look that up again. Thanks for the help. I know these are cheap guitars but they really are 2 of my prettiest and I hate to think they would just be wasted.
Thanks

Don't jump to try and move

Solid advice for a guy with misplaced nuts.

Damn it, you beat me to it. How exactly did you misplace them? :lol:

Are these both SX guitars? Their fret spacing is not ideal, but not so bad as to create noticeable intonation problems either. Many factories leave a fair margin of tolerances for slop in their fret spacing, but it takes a good amount of being off to be noticeable in most places.

The only measurements from an SX guitar that I have on file actually comes out to a 25.540" scale length, about .040" longer than most standard 25.5". The nut on that one was located pretty much dead on relative to the frets - measured at less than a thousandth of an inch off of perfect. It's no guarantee they are all that good, but it doesn't appear to be a chronic issue anyway.

Measuring the nut to the 12th fret alone won't tell you much about the relationships of the the frets to each other, or to the nut and saddle. That's a much more complicated analysis if you really want to do anything by measuring. If you suspect the nut of being out of place, then you obviously can't use it as a reference to take or gauge any other measurements by. First you have to cancel the nut out and look at the frets independently, relative only to each other to figure out where they stand. Then you can compare the nut position to the frets once you figure out what the intentions were there.

Chances are though that the frets and nut positions are just fine. The nut slots are likely far too high and causing serious intonation problems in the lower frets because of this - that's just a given on pretty much any new factory instrument, especially a cheap one. Properly cut nut, good new strings, and a good overall setup, and chances are that the intonation will be fine.

That's a common problem with these hundred dollar guitars though - they generally take at least a few hundred more in post-factory work to actually get them to play well. Pretty much, you get what you pay for.

Solid advice for a guy with misplaced nuts.

Damn it, you beat me to it. How exactly did you misplace them? :lol:

That's the worst part of it. Its some guy in China and I barely know him. I'm so ashamed :)

Wait for it.... Wait for it.........

Are these both SX guitars?
they generally take at least a few hundred more in post-factory work to actually get them to play well.

Pretty much, you get what you pay for.

Ahhhh, There it is. I knew that was coming at me <grin>. Well Cliches are cliches because they are so true.
One is an sx (and maybe a 2nd short scale sx later) the other is a very ornate inlaid tele copy. I suspect from inlaidartist on ebay but I got it used so I can't say for sure.

So you think just the nut slots too high could do this? The capo would correct that also. Hmmmm. I also didn't know the sx had a slightly different scale. Thats amazing. I wonder if fender made them do that to keep from being sued. If the nut slots were too high wouldn't it feel terrible to play? Much different from my better tuned guitars or my american strat? I have lots of guitars $1000 gibsons and mia strats and many < $200 that also play truly amazing. Is it possible I wouldn't feel something that off?

For measuring I was thinking of calling the capo'd 1st fret the nut then do the calculations. See if it all matches up then calculate 1 more fret back and see if the nut is at that spot. I will go and check tonight to see if there is something fishy about the slots. I may try and make a video of it. I think when you hear the tele specially you may say "Holy crap I didn't know you meant that off sounding". I'll have to see if I can do that without making a 10 min snoozer.

Yes, the nut slots need to be cut perfectly for ideal intonation, in the range of maybe a thousandth of an inch above the fret plane. A few thousandths higher can pass as bearable, even though it may cause some first position intonation issues. Approach ten thousandths or so too high, and that would rate as pretty horrible. Twenty or thirty thousandths too high, and I would call that completely unplayable.

Yours is probably in the twenty or thirty thousandths range, as many of those cheaper imports are. This means massive sharpening in the first position, which will occur entirely due to the string height at the nut even if the placement is perfect. And yes, this problem will disappear with a capo, as this automatically sets the strings at proper clearance over the second fret when capoed at the first as it should have over the first fret when open to the nut.

As to the actual measured scale length being slightly different from Fender, that's just arbitrary choice, slop in the tools, convenience, close enough, looks good from here, etc. There's no exclusive legal rights or mystery to this scale length, it's just what it is.

Don't go too wild trying to calculate scale length from fret measurements. Unless you have very precise tools, you will not get precise results. This is not likely the cause of your problems anyway, but it can be especially confusing and give a wide range of contradictory results if you don't have precision tools to take your measurements with. You say yours is a short scale, I would take whatever they say the scale length is and use that measurement. If they say it's a 24" scale and it actually is a 24" scale, then you should find 1.347" from the edge of the nut to the center of the 1st fret. If their listed scale length is a rounded approximation and the true scale ends up at 24.1", then your nut to 1st fret would have to be about .006" longer - a pretty minimal amount, which would translate to less than half a cent impact in the first frets.

So if they say it's a 24" scale length, and you measure somewhere in the 1.330"-1.355" range, your nut is fine. If it measures something like 1.375" or greater, then I would start looking a bit more closely at this.

Still, I don't expect this to be the source of the problem. What you've described so far is exactly what you should expect from a new cheap SX guitar. Some assembly required - the nut slots need to be properly cut. Take it in to a good tech, and don't be at all surprised if they tell you it needs some serious fret work and a new nut. They'll probably charge you more for the nut work and setup than the guitar itself cost, but if you want to make it well playable it will be worth it.

I had one of thoes guitars,,take it to your shop and let them deal with it..Good Luck

This is some of the stuff I wanted to learn. I guess a nut is cheap if I screw it up. If it takes me 3 or 4 even. I have some fine files. While I'm learning whats the best way to build a slot back up. I figure I'll need that as I won't know its the right height till I cut it too low I suspect. Once I get the hang then I'll do a nice graphite nut for it.
I did look closer at the sx strat. It is somewhat high at the nut but not terrible or even bothersome from a playability angle. The over all action is quite nice. Still doesn't seem higher than other guitars without tuning problems. I'll need to double check that.
The strat I'm working on is the standard scale. I have a short scale but its not as bad so I will mess with it later. Both the strats have fairly nice fret dressing. The inlaid tele I have will be for learning fret dressing as its pretty horrible. It plays so out of tune I dont know what. But I'll check it's nut slot height next.

I may have posted a summary here before, but here's a reference from another forum that was easier to find.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2287401&postcount=26

Basically, if you fret a string lightly just past the 2nd fret, then look for a gap between the first fret and the string, if you can easily see any gap at all, then your nut slots are way too high. You should be able to hear the slightest little "plink" as you tap the string over the first fret.

To see any gap however, you should have to get out your jewelers loupe, get your eyeball inches away from the fret, get the light just right, look really really hard, and even then you shouldn't be able to see any real space between the string and the fret unless you are putting it in motion by tapping it, at which point you may see the slightest spec of light appear and disappear. If there is a gap the thickness of a business card, then it's way too high and you will have intonation problems. If the gap is the thickness of a credit card, then it's way, way too high, and will sound like crap no matter what else you do with setup and intonation adjustments.

In most areas of setup, even 20 or 30 thousandths of an inch won't make or break the intonation. In nut height, even 2 or 3 thousandths can have a noticeable impact in the first position. It's one of the fine points in a proper setup which requires far greater precision for ideal results than most others.

Thanks for the great info. I answered a while back but the damn web page timed out and dumped my text. I reset the intonation on the sx and it set up way different from the last 2 times and its a lot better now. Don't know why this one is so tricky. I've set or checked my other guitars for years. Both these guitars do have higher nut slots but the strat mostly came back into tune. I think the last bit of problem may be that but the prob I was chasing was way worse it seems.
On the tele I did drop the fret slots. So far its not changing much but I need to see if my other files are finer to go deeper. Thanks again. I'm still checking on the things you mentioned.

I just wanted to update on this if anyone googles the problem. The SX I still need to try a new nut but I had a luthier look at the the Inlaid tele and it did indeed have the nut too far away from the 1st fret. I had him make a zero fret at the correct (nearly 1/4") closer location and it intonates and plays great now.

I may have posted a summary here before, but here's a reference from another forum that was easier to find.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2287401&postcount=26

Basically, if you fret a string lightly just past the 2nd fret, then look for a gap between the first fret and the string, if you can easily see any gap at all, then your nut slots are way too high. You should be able to hear the slightest little "plink" as you tap the string over the first fret.

To see any gap however, you should have to get out your jewelers loupe, get your eyeball inches away from the fret, get the light just right, look really really hard, and even then you shouldn't be able to see any real space between the string and the fret unless you are putting it in motion by tapping it, at which point you may see the slightest spec of light appear and disappear. If there is a gap the thickness of a business card, then it's way too high and you will have intonation problems. If the gap is the thickness of a credit card, then it's way, way too high, and will sound like crap no matter what else you do with setup and intonation adjustments.

In most areas of setup, even 20 or 30 thousandths of an inch won't make or break the intonation. In nut height, even 2 or 3 thousandths can have a noticeable impact in the first position. It's one of the fine points in a proper setup which requires far greater precision for ideal results than most others.

I finally got a chance to put a new nut on the sx. Its just a used plastic strat nut but it seems to mostly have fixed the problem. I can't compare it to the old nut as it shot out and disappeared. I dont think this one is particularity good as far as the height goes but it might be better than the one that had the problem. IT was so off I suspect the slots were not terminating at the edge of the nut. Any thanks again and just add this on to the proof that it can be a good thing to swap out an sx nut.
Thanks everybody and specially David for the help

I can't compare it to the old nut as it shot out and disappeared.

So now your nuts are not only misplaced but lost!?!?! :lol:

Just the one. Way too much energy to keep it contained. Its ok though, one day I'll find it when I need it.