Advice

Hi guys. I'm a newcomer thats been lurking here for a while. I am in need of some advice and I feel ya'lls experience can help me. I play electric guitar (telecaster) at my church's praise band and need some advice on how to best create my tone. Our set up is to plug in to DI box then to soundboard. We are asked not to use amps on stage due to extra noise. We are allowed to use pedals, and thats where I need advice. I am interested in using a multi effects pedal, so its just one pedal versus several. Is this a good way to go,and if so, what are some simple units that will give me some basic tones and is easy to operate. We play most of the current p&w songs and also some hymns, usually with an up tempo rythymn.

All advice will be appreciated.

Hi guys. I'm a newcomer thats been lurking here for a while. I am in need of some advice and I feel ya'lls experience can help me. I play electric guitar (telecaster) at my church's praise band and need some advice on how to best create my tone. Our set up is to plug in to DI box then to soundboard. We are asked not to use amps on stage due to extra noise. We are allowed to use pedals, and thats where I need advice. I am interested in using a multi effects pedal, so its just one pedal versus several. Is this a good way to go,and if so, what are some simple units that will give me some basic tones and is easy to operate. We play most of the current p&w songs and also some hymns, usually with an up tempo rythymn.

All advice will be appreciated.

Although I am not a huge fan of multi fx pedals, take a look at one of the PODs. They seem to get the job done, even for guys like Lincoln Brewster.

Well, the good news is you have a lot of choices! Here are a few to get you started.

1. Modeling Multi-effects (Line 6 POD, Vox ToneLab, etc.)
2. Single amp emulation pedal like the Tech21 SansAmp or one of their "Character" series of pedals.
3. Or if you are really happy with your existing amp and just can't bear to part with it...there's always the isolation cabinet option.

After trying a couple of options our we ended up purchasing 2 Grendel Dead Room iso cabs and that has worked very well in our church. We have a large worship team (6 guitarist in the rotation with a lot of really great gear between us), so the iso cab option was pretty easy to justify.

That being said, I also own a POD XT Live and use it when I travel to other churches where I can't use a live amp. Spend just a little bit of time with the sound guy to get everything EQed and these modelers really can sound very good.

I think a good balance of price, simplicity, and capability can be found in the Floor POD/Floor POD Plus or the Vox ToneLab ST. And any of these meet your one pedal requirment.

The SanAmp and "Character" pedals are dead simple and may be a good option if you already have your pedal board built out and just need something to replace your amp. By desing, though, these things are one-trick-poines, compared to the PODs and ToneLabs of the world...may be a really nice sounding pony, though. I don't know for sure as I have never used one. Honestly, even with my POD, I have settled on 1 or 2 favorite amp models and hardly ever change, so one trick may be all you need.

Good luck

+ 1 on the XT Live. If you've ever messed with digital effects it's not too hard to get a decent sound. Just spend some time with the manual and tweak until it sounds good - (stock sounds are rarely useful and overdone with effects). You have so much variety there which is useful if you're playing a diverse range of music. If you like Lincoln Brewster you can download his whole set of patches from his website. Search Guitar Center's Used Gear page online and you can usually find a decent deal.

I will concur, the XT Live worked well for me in that setting while I had it. I miss it a lot, actually... but you can't beat a real amp.

I don't agree with church sound guys (I'm a sound tech myself) that say you can't use amps... there's a whole bunch of crazy thinking behind it.

it's not the same as a real amp, but the POD X3 LIVE beats the pants off anything i've ever used before. i ended up going back to a real amp for the overall feel of it, but if i was in your situation, i would go with the X3 without a doubt. it definitely has a learning curve, but the tones are much more realistic than any previous incarnations to me.

I will concur, the XT Live worked well for me in that setting while I had it. I miss it a lot, actually... but you can't beat a real amp.

I don't agree with church sound guys (I'm a sound tech myself) that say you can't use amps... there's a whole bunch of crazy thinking behind it.

+1 I'm with you on that. You can always put an amp back stage or isolate it and just mic it into the mix...that's the reason I'm moving to low wattage amps.

I love my POD XT Live, If you end up getting one, send me a PM and I'll send you a bunch of the patches I use

As mentioned, depending on what vintage amp you like there are the Tech 21 Character Series pedals. They can be used as a DI. Not as versatile as the Pod though. My vote is to find a small watt amp you love and mic it. That is only if you have any flexibility at all.

I also play P&W at church. A small amp, even a little 15 W. SS amp with an 8" speaker at low volume, would help a lot (I like the Peavey Blazer 158), since multi FX pedals can take a while to tweak if the tones aren't blending well with the other instruments and singers. I would go into the FX unit and then into the amp w/a mic. If you are using the multi FX unit for sounds and there's a problem, you can always bypass the unit and a straight Tele into the amp can still get you through a service.

That said, I don't know what your budget is, but the Zoom G1J has a street price of $50 and has very interesting sounds programmed by John 5. As a top notch session guy who has played metal, country, jazz, rock and bluegrass shred, the patches are set up and arranged for a very versatile range of sounds. 12-strings, Tweed Champs, 70's Townshend Hiwatt tones, Univibe into Marshall Trower tones, et al are all in the presets. Don't confuse it with the the other G1 models - those presets are more artificial sounding to my ear.

Just thought that I would put my two cents worth in.

The church where I play is only a small church and what I do is mike up a little 5w blackstar HT-5 and run a boss ME-70 through it. This set up is more than loud enough for what we are doing, and the amp also doubles as my foldback.

So you could consider a low watt amp which is probably loud enough for what you are doing but not so loud that you are going to have problems with the sound guy. You'd be surprised how loud a 5w amp can sound.:shock:

Thanks guys. I'm getting a lot of tips here. I need to say though that I'm not able to use an amp on stage, but can use a processor to run to the sound board. But I don't need a big one that is complicated to use. I've been toying with the idea of using a small pedal board, with say 4 pedals. But I know that I could get many more tones with a mfx processor. Just trying to keep it simple and as cheap as possible but still get quality sound. Also wondering about the differences between the floor models vs the small shelf models that are hand tweaked. Granted I'm probably not going to be changing tones on the fly during the song, just using the tone controls on the guitar, so I can set up 3 or 4 tones and change on each song. A typical set list will only be 4 5 songs. So you can see, my needs are really simple, not like a touring professional player. :smile:

You won't get more "bang for your buck" than a multi-processor (like PodX3 Live or Vox). If you aren't that familiar with various tones and effects, this is the best way to get a general feel for what you like the sound of and for experimentation. However, it will probably just serve as a jumping off point until you have refined your "sound" and begin building your own pedal board. Playing live with a pedal board is the way to go, in my opinion, long-term. Then you can use a Tech21 Liverpool or Blonde into your direct box. While nothing replaces the "feel" of having an amp on stage, if you have good in-ears (molds) this is a great no-stage-volume alternative.

I've owned the Pod XT Live and like the tones of the Vox Tonelab LE a great deal more.

We went direct about a year ago and I use the X3 live. Take your time tweaking your own patches and you will be good to go. I only use about 5 or 6 patches on a regular basis based off of the AC30 amp.

By the way, I get a lot of complements on my tone with the X3.

Thanks for the replies. I see that there are two schools of thought on this. I see that some of you are replacing the pedal boards with a large multi fx processor. And then again, I see that some of you still like the pedal board. I was watching the thread on the stomp box page about just using 3-5 pedals. Whats ya'lls thoughts on that idea? Besides a tuner, overdrive, delay, what other pedal is essential in p&w music today? If you could build a 5 pedal or less board, what is needed? And more importantly, can you run that pedal board via DI to the mixer? Will the signal be strong enough for the sound guy to work with?

And more importantly, can you run that pedal board via DI to the mixer? Will the signal be strong enough for the sound guy to work with?

There won't be a strong enough signal. You'll need an active DI that gives a boost. I use one from Ultrasound. Radial makes them, too.

... I was watching the thread on the stomp box page about just using 3-5 pedals. Whats ya'lls thoughts on that idea? Besides a tuner, overdrive, delay, what other pedal is essential in p&w music today? If you could build a 5 pedal or less board, what is needed? And more importantly, can you run that pedal board via DI to the mixer? Will the signal be strong enough for the sound guy to work with?
IMO, you'll need something other than a DI for best quality going direct to the board. One of those Tech 21 modeler stomp boxes would be my vote if you haven't been swayed to the POD. I'm using one of their amps (10w) with the direct out and it suits me well. Just enough stage monitor in that little 8" for me, and nobody complains about the level, since 90% of it's through the PA.

If you're still adding pedals, I would probably swap out the OD for the modeler, using the "amp" overdrive, controlled by your guitar volume. After that, it depends on what you're doing most. In a non-modeling amp, minimal set up, I always take my tuner, compressor, and distortion (take your pick, something that can get "fuzzy"), delay (only if the amp doesn't have reverb), and, then, it depends on what I am going to do - could be a phaser, chorus, wah, though I'd probably go with chorus for P&W, one of the others for something more in a R&R/R&B vein.

IMO, you'll need something other than a DI for best quality going direct to the board. One of those Tech 21 modeler stomp boxes would be my vote if you haven't been swayed to the POD.

Sage advice from Still fddlin. Keep in mind that the amp is as much a part of "electric guitar" as the guitar itself. In the Guitar Amplifier Handbook, Dave Hunter makes a great point. You can take a great guitar and run it through a bad amp and you are going to get a bad tone. Take a cheap or mediocre guitar and run in through a great amp, however, and you will still probably going to be able to get some great tones.

So going back to your original issue, if the amp is so important and you can't have one on stage what in the world are you supposed to do? To get good tone, you have to run through something that fakes an amp as well as possible. Standard DI's aren't going to get you there. PODs, for one, were built to do just that. In fact, they really were not intended to be run through guitar amps as a multi-effects unit. Line 6 has wisely included options in their PODs that make them sound ok though amps, but the original intent was to record and/or play direct.

You still have options, though. The thing about these amp modeling effects is that you can use only the amp models and not the built in effects if you like and still run a pedal board into the front of it just like running into an amp...or use a combination of built-in effects and stand alone pedals. When I use my POD, I much prefer my overdrive/distortion pedals running into the front of the POD to the built-in distortion effect models. I still use the built-in delay and modulation effects, though.

Wow! Now I'm realizing that I'm kind of in over my head. I need to keep my set up simple because of the cost and my low level of experience in all things electrical/digital.

You guys are amazing in all the advice I've been giving and frankly, its overwhelming! Ha! I have some more searching to do to figure out what I need. I was hoping to find that I could get by with either a small pedal board with 3-4 stomps, and apparently I need a signal boost of some sort, or a easy to manipulate multi effects pedal thats not too extensive with lots of effects that I won't ever use.

Thanks again guys for all the advice. It was very much appreciated. God Bless each one of you.

Ok, man. If you're looking for budget, find yourself an M-Audio Black Box with a pedal (separate accessory). These things sound pretty darn good (the sounds come from the big brother the Adrenalinn by Roger Linn). The whole set-up should go for less than $250 and will give you pretty much any sound you need. The problem with going for stomp boxes is that you're going to spend the same amount of money just to have only a handful of "ok" but not "great" effects.

My buddy recently stopped using his amp at church, and has been using the BB on my suggestion. In this setting, he actually prefers it. The Pod XT Live is better, but as you might have seen, considerably more expensive. The BB also doubles as a recording interface should you need it.

It's easy to use, and although you say that you'll "never use" all of those effects, you might be surprised. A little rotary here might add to this song, a little delay might add to that song, tremolo on another. It also has an arpeggiator built in which can add to your arsenal even more. A single guitar tone doesn't always work well for every single song. I've heard people say the same thing because they're fighting the mentality of overusing effects, but once they have all of these things available, they find that they're actually quite useful in many situations.

Hope that helps you, man.

EDIT:
I should have noted that they stopped making them, so you'll either have to go used, or there are still some places that have them in stock at a pretty good discount. Do a google search.

...or a easy to manipulate multi effects pedal thats not too extensive with lots of effects that I won't ever use.

Ha! By George, I think you've got it!!! :lol:

Sorry, Bro. I don't know why us gear guys have to make it sound more complicated than it really is. Happy hunting! As you have questions, don't hesitate to ask. And, update us on what you end up doing.

Ahhhh!!! Sorry I just can't let this one go...because really more and more of us are having to find "silent stage" solutions.

Tech 21 SansAmp Character series of pedals have been mentioned a couple of times. I hadn't really done much research on them myself, so I decided to see what I could find.

Check this out.

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Ok, what you are hearing is the pedal going straight to a recording interface. So basically it is guitar -> to pedal -> direct to PA. Doesn't get any easier that that.

If these sound half as good as his video, I might dump my POD for one.

But wait, there's more! This time, he's using a different flavor of the Character series, the "Blonde". But he adds various other pedals in front.

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Simple - Plug your guitar into the pedal and the pedal to the board, dial up a sound very much like you would dial in a amp. And no extra effects that you'll never use.

Downside is that one of these runs $150+ new. And you'll probably want to add a couple of effect pedals as some point. I mean, delay is almost mandatory in P&W these days :wink: But you certainly don't have to...and if/when you do, you don't have to do it all at once. The more I think about it, the more I like the approach, though. If you do play though a real amp too on occasion, you can keep your pedal board as you build it and just swap the amp for the SansAmp as needed.

Downside is that one of these runs $150+ new. And you'll probably want to add a couple of effect pedals as some point. I mean, delay is almost mandatory in P&W these days :wink: But you certainly don't have to...and if/when you do, you don't have to do it all at once. The more I think about it, the more I like the approach, though. If you do play though a real amp too on occasion, you can keep your pedal board as you build it and just swap the amp for the SansAmp as needed.

See, this is where the problem is. The SansAmps do sound nice, but they're expensive. As soon as he starts adding a few other decent pedals, he's going to be running into quite a big chunk of change, and the amount of effects at his disposal will still be fairly limited. Example: Rotary sounds are also gaining popularity in P&W for rhythm guitar. A decent rotary pedal on it's own would cost quite a bit of money, but generally comes as a standard effect in many effects pedals.

There's also the consideration of having to carry a bunch of stuff around, and then getting everything set-up. Want to keep everything hooked up and in the same order? A pedal board will cost you a couple hundred.

Lincoln Brewster has been known to use PODs live. He's since switched to the AxeFX, but he's not even using amps live anymore. If the mfx pedals work for him, I think they'll work in this case too. :wink:

Wow! Now I'm realizing that I'm kind of in over my head. I need to keep my set up simple because of the cost and my low level of experience in all things electrical/digital.

You guys are amazing in all the advice I've been giving and frankly, its overwhelming! Ha! I have some more searching to do to figure out what I need. I was hoping to find that I could get by with either a small pedal board with 3-4 stomps, and apparently I need a signal boost of some sort, or a easy to manipulate multi effects pedal thats not too extensive with lots of effects that I won't ever use.

Thanks again guys for all the advice. It was very much appreciated. God Bless each one of you. One more plug for the PODxt Live, you can plug it into a computer (I use my laptop at practice sometimes) and edit the patches with the software, it is very easy and simple to do. Typically, I make all my patches that way, and even if I need to tweak a patch, its pretty simple to do on the unit.

Well, I just checked, and you can get a POD XT Live for $350 at Amazon, probably elsewhere. It's going to be REALLY hard to get a decent setup for P&W with any kind of amp emulator (+tuner + delay + something) for that kind of $.

If I played where I was told not to bring an amp, and just starting out, I probably wouldn't think twice about that decision. If it was good enough for Lincoln Brewster, it's probably going to pass muster in your church. Me, I've got a bunch of amps and pedals that I'm used to, so if I was told to not bring an amp, I'd just get 1 more pedal, like a Tech 21, but the XT Live is always on my list of things to try out.

Let us know where you end up with this quest.

Wow! Now I'm realizing that I'm kind of in over my head. I need to keep my set up simple because of the cost and my low level of experience in all things electrical/digital.

I was hoping to find that I could get by with either a small pedal board with 3-4 stomps, and apparently I need a signal boost of some sort, or a easy to manipulate multi effects pedal thats not too extensive with lots of effects that I won't ever use.

Pedals (overdrive/reverb/chorus/delay/...) alone into a DI are not going to give you a good guitar/amp tone. Even though the term Multi Effects is used a very important part is the amp/speaker modeling.

Even a very low cost DigiTech unit will have amp/cab/mic modeling, and all these units have built in DI signal. Don't worry about all of the options on these units, just come up with 2-3 standard settings and tweak those for a while.

Well guys, I think I've come to a decision in my quest. I actually have a Digitech RP80 with an expression pedal that I have been using. It appears to have the capability, although it might not be the best, of allowing me the options to create a patch with my own selected tones and effects and store them. I think that I just need to sit down, for the next year ha!, and figure out how to operate this crazy thing. Its the cheapest option for me at this time. And later if I can get proficient at creating patches, then maybe I can trade up for a better unit. I'm just not experienced with the gear associated with electric guitar. It has been a fun struggle to go from accoustic to electric. And I'm very much appreciating the talented guitarists who have had such an impact in music all these years and in the years to come. And this forum has been a tremendous help for me.

Thanks again you guys. Now I've got some studying to do and a lot of music to play!

Well guys, I think I've come to a decision in my quest. I actually have a Digitech RP80 with an expression pedal that I have been using. It appears to have the capability, although it might not be the best, of allowing me the options to create a patch with my own selected tones and effects and store them. I think that I just need to sit down, for the next year ha!, and figure out how to operate this crazy thing. Its the cheapest option for me at this time. And later if I can get proficient at creating patches, then maybe I can trade up for a better unit. I'm just not experienced with the gear associated with electric guitar. It has been a fun struggle to go from accoustic to electric. And I'm very much appreciating the talented guitarists who have had such an impact in music all these years and in the years to come. And this forum has been a tremendous help for me.

Thanks again you guys. Now I've got some studying to do and a lot of music to play!If you get a POD XT Live, I'll email you all my patches and I can make up whatever you want for you ;)