love hate relationship with the guitar

I'm looking for some inspiration. I reckon some of you will have experienced this at some point. It's a rut that borders on pathology.

I've been playing guitar for 25 years or so, ever since I was 16. I've taken lessons over the years from good teachers, maintained practice routines from time to time, developed a decent sense of time and rhythm. I can play a phrygian scale, for example. I recently recorded a studio-quality album with my buddy that we are in the final stages of mixing down that has received good feedback from respected musician friends.

But I've also had a pretty busy career as a researcher, and am currently back at school to finish graduate studies. All of this has kept me busy over the years (i.e., limited practice time) as did a former dedication to playing golf (which I don't do so much of anymore).

When I examine my abilities, I feel frustrated that I haven't become much better for the amount of time I have been playing. I "know" all the things I should be doing (e.g., practice routines, scales, learning songs, etc.) but for whatever reason, when it comes to practicing, I just can't seem to maintain it for longer than a few days, or weeks. I want to be better, but I always find myself doing something else. Guitar has never been easy for me.

If I was ever in a jam situation with others, I would crash and burn because I don't even think I could play a song, though I know tons of *parts* of songs. It's like that. I feel like an "un-guitarist" though I want to be able to express the musical ideas I hear in my head.

So now that you've heard my sad story :oops: I guess my question is, how do I get to the next level? It's a mental barrier for sure. I need leverage and I refuse to give up (as others have referenced in other posts). I wish there was a book out there that said "just do this, and in 1,2,3 years you will be a well-rounded player".

I'm looking to the players who struggle, or who have struggled with the guitar to share their wisdom! Thanks for any pointers in advance.

WB,
Your comment that you "don't think I could play a song" and that you knew 'parts' describes all but the last few years for me (I'm 49 and started at 14). My growth as a player can be attributed to one single night about 5 years ago when a friend played "Sleepwalk" for me. He showed it to me and I worked on it like never before. I was amazed a how much music there is in a few chords and a strong melody. That one moment changed everything; how I play blues, funk, everything became more musical.
Anyway, I guess my point is, you said it already; learn to play a single song - not necessarily the guitar part on a recording, a song. Practice that one song until it's music. The fact that you are unhappy with your skills just means you're very very close.
Don't give up!

Yep, I'm 40, been playing since 14, but only in the last few years have I taken guitar seriously enough to practice scales, learn new chords, find out how the notes all fit together, read some music theory, comprehend tablature, and learn songs. Songs ultimately teach you an awful lot, and put together all the theory and practice into concrete terms. So I agree with Bob.

As for jamming... Sometimes I go into a guitar store and get immediately intimidated by kids half my age ripping through arpeggios in their mad dash to be the next Yngwie. Then I sit down and do my 12 bar blues, my 1-4-5, my Stones riffs, a little T-Rex -- and it's like I live in a different universe from these guys. But I think the best thing to do is to develop your ear, slow down, and put the right note in the pocket. Loosen up. Once I ignore the blistering attack down the aisle, I can find the music I want to play.

Parenthetically, that's how I discovered a love for teles. They sounded so different and felt so much better than the monster metal machines buzzing around me. I have one coming via eBay soon (and can't wait!).

I was the exact same way. The feeling that I sucked was really the turning point for me. I loved to go into stores and play around on guitars (I love the technical aspects of guitars), but i would have nothing to play and someone somewhere else would always be playing something that sounded amazing. I would feel dumb and think that everyone was staring at me (the kid who can't even play guitar).

That was the turning point for me. After that I got together with my friend who is an amazing drummer and started learning as much as I could. I learned songs, solos and scales and all sorts of different chords. I also stopped learning from tabs and started youtubing lessons on the song. It's so much easier to learn a whole song when someone (even if it's through video is teaching you). I also got a new guitar (a partscaster I built) and haven't been able to put it down. I play much more now that I have a guitar I love.

As for jamming... Sometimes I go into a guitar store and get immediately intimidated by kids half my age ripping through arpeggios in their mad dash to be the next Yngwie. Then I sit down and do my 12 bar blues, my 1-4-5, my Stones riffs, a little T-Rex -- and it's like I live in a different universe from these guys. But I think the best thing to do is to develop your ear, slow down, and put the right note in the pocket. Loosen up. Once I ignore the blistering attack down the aisle, I can find the music I want to play.

(and can't wait!).

Haha, I totally know that feeling. Who listens to that crap anyway? lol In fact I went to GC today and had a similar experience. That place always kinda seems souless to me but that's another topic. I'm much more interested in tasteful playing than overly distorted "hot dogging". Go into a high end music store and you will likely hear people playing music that's more in tune to what you play.

As far as the OP, I'm in the same boat at 26. I need to step up my game or I will definately not progress at the rate I need to. When I first started playing, i progressed very rapidly and constantly played with other (better) musicians which really helped. I think that's what I need to do again, get on the scales and theory and make an effort to regularly play with better musicians, especially guitarists. The trick is to keep it fresh and stay on top of it.

Play with others/ join a band.

That does a whole bunch of things.

First, makes it harder to not commit if you've got a bunch of other folks depending on you to show up, know your parts etc.

Second, your focus will be on playing songs - making MUSIC - rather than just learning scales. It turns that theory into practice.

Third, develops listening skills. And rhythm skills as well. that just aren't going to develop in the same way doing it at home.

Fourth, it may introduce you to new people, music etc. depending. And if you end up in a band with good folks who are a little bit better than you but willing to help/ teach - if you're into the band and want to continue I'll bet you get a whole lot better pretty fast.

On the other hand, bands can be a real PITA. And, you have other, real priorities. But if you can find the right group of folks, give it a shot. (A lot of this goes for recording too, though - which you're already doing.)

I played a lot in my teens. I kinda put the guitar on the backburner through my twenties - although I still played a bit. For most of my thirties I hardly played. A few years back I decided to give it a go again - mid-life "crisis" or whatever. It's taken me four or five years, but i finally think I'm a better guitar player now than I was at eighteen. It's been a bunch of things. My getting back into playing was spurred on by having my old high school band reconvene. the first time around I seriously let the side down - everybody else still had most of their chops. I was horrible. But we decided to get together again - I decided I'd get a new guitar. Discovered this place, a couple or three Teles and a few more get togethers with the boys later I'm giving advice to others about how to improve?!

But listen. I decided to give guitar another shot after a long layoff and I just found out (again) that I really enjoyed it. I think I probably played as a teenager- at least partly - because I wanted to be a rockstar. Well, kinda realized by now that that's not gonna happen. And even if it did, there's no money in it now. So, I'm playing because I like it. It's just fun again - that's really got to be the key. Not that it won't be frustrating - there's always bumps along the path. I still can't fingerpick worth a damn, my slide playing's atrocious, I'm a mess rhythm-wise usually and while I consider myself a "lead" player - well, there's lots more to learn.

Listen, you can't learn it all. And, adult responsibilities mean you probably can't play six hours a day even if you want to. But I also think that the older you get, you've been exposed to so many more things, and so much more music, that I feel that can't help but make you a better guitar player in the end.

So figure out what it is about playing guitar that makes you happiest, and join a band and have fun. Life's too short not to!

Cheers,
Geoff

Finding a direction, or a new direction may be the start...

We all 'struggle' in one way or another, that means we are pushing our boundaries....

But, for me, I do jam with a bass player, I could "form a band" perhaps, but at a similar age and having been through years of that, it really isn't practical...

For some time I have made a point of being able to play something, anything...as simple or as complicated as you like...'cause there is always going to be someone who probably does not play guitar, maybe a spouse of your kids, who are going to be looking at you oddly, perhaps as you look at yourself, and for all the time and investment...and ask you to "play something" (unless you keep this thing like some "dirty little secret" and avoid the question being asked)...

This is a fundamental challenge...something I am addressing again with renewed vigor...regardless of what you might do, there is always a place for have learned some "party pieces" you can play convincingly to yourself or others and be rightfully proud of...

And, it doesn't matter what kind of genre or technique or style you have....if you are into the "blues" for instance...if someone asks you to play something, they will be more impressed if you can whip out a simple song, than if you can rip out a bunch of randome blues licks out of context. So, you know, there is plenty of material that you could adapt...something like SRV "Lenny" can work really well and be impressive though not that hard, with a pick style approach and on your own.

There are obviously a lot of pop songs, and for the more adventurous there are some truly amazing players out there that specialize in "solo" guitar arrangements. Check them out, even if that's not something you want to "do" it is certainly something to have up your "sleeve".

Maybe, choose a song you have always liked, or perhaps a tune your partner is fond of...and really work on it, learn the melody, learn the chords in every position, perhaps try a few alterations to things...as really try and imagine how you could "reply" to someone who comes by and says "oh, you play guitar...play me something"...I almost look at it like an obligation to be able to. I know a lot of people play to backing tracks and stuff...but that can be embarrassing in that kind of situation (oh, I can't play without my karaoke band!)....there are tones of easy enough little pieces about...more common in the acoustic world, but you know, you can play them too if you chose to.

What kind of music do you like, what are your aspirations....if one were to ask you right now...play me something...would you have something "impressive"? I don't get a chance to play or even visit music shops, but last time I did, I was testing out a guitar with an intent and did even buy, and played for an hour...the guy said that normally they don't let people do that, but since you play well and sound good, it's like free advertising, play as long as you like! They will not be saying that to the kid with the metal fetish or possibly a few stones riffs...but have a song, and you will win hearts!

Hi there -- thanks bob mc, tooncaster, jimmynumber9, stuco, geoff738 and warmingtone. This really helps. I am going to ruminate on this, and hope that others chime in... (please do!).

In the mean time, reading another thread (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/music-your-ears/216061-whats-your-favourite-guitar-album-00s.html)about favorite albums of the 2000's, I came across the name Joe Bonamassa (never heard of him), and found this mini-documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxZS4rMdJN0), which is helping me put things in perspective. (it covers his dedication, and has a lot of fun stuff to see for us guitar nerds -- even a brief cameo of Danny Gatton as the 'best unknown guitarist' - wow.)

Maybe a change of direction is in order. Just play things you've created that are simple and you enjoy for a while rather than the songs of others. Maybe you'll develop your own style in the process. More fun- less frustrating

It might be a good idea to put the scales and licks on hold for awhile and pursue a more song-oriented approach. If and when you start playing with others, most of what you'll be doing will be playing the changes and backing up a singer and/or other soloists. Learn to make other people sound good and you'll be in demand. Your lead playing will also improve once you know the songs and where the chord changes are going. I'd buy some fake books and have at it. Be honest. Start where you are and work your way up to the virtuoso stuff. You might also try lessons again with some new goals in mind. Hope this helps... CP

I agree with everyone who is recommending a more song-based approach. If you've been playing forever and can barely play a single song all the way through, something isn't right. I know people who are like this, and I suspect it's quite common.

The best musicians I know can play tons of tunes, by memory in several genres. They are song focused players. When they play leads, the leads are extremely musical because they think in the context of songs and "good parts" that fit the tune. They can play rings around the guys who have only played "their own stuff" because those guys typically only know what they know (I used to be like this). As mentioned in a previous post, this will develop a musicality that you'll never get by learning scales and practicing exercises. You'll learn lead, rhythm and harmony in the context of real music, and you'll actually be able to play useful stuff. You'll see how similar many chord changes and song structure are, and you'll learn to identify (by sound) what various chord changes sound like. If you want to analyze the scales, theory, etc. you can analyze it AFTER you've got the tunes or licks under your fingers. That's when the theory comes to life - play music first, analyze later. If you can't play a tune, you've really got nothing.

IMO, to get over the next hump, you need to play with other musicians. Preferably live at gigs. It's like night and day...practicing vs playing in a band. No amount of theory, teachers, or practicing is going to get you to a level of being able to play a song all the way through as you mentioned. The pressure of the live situation is what makes you good.

I wish I had more time to play. Right now, I can do 2-3 hours. At other times of the year, 1 hour. My method is the same now as it was when I was 20. First, I play with a blues trio once or twice a week. I get a chance to try out lots of things. As I play, I take note of the things that are working better and the things that still need improvement. When I get home, I work out a practice plan to address those things. The significance of this is that it is self-contained and easy to judge the progress of. Sometimes I'll arbitrarily set a goal of playing certain patterns or whatever x number of times in such-and-such keys and on such-and-such strings. This helps me focus on manageable aspects of my musical abilities. The final exam, so to speak, is when I play with the band. Then I re-evaluate and take it from there.

Learn songs on the guitar. Learn to sing those songs along with the guitar.
-yer welcome

To the OP, I'm struggling too, in fact I was going to start this very thread.

I recorded myself playing to a stones backing, and when I watch it back I think, lord I'm not really playing music, i'm just running up and down some patterns. I feel there is no melody, no theme and no real dynamics.


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Its not easy to do this, but I would really appreciate some feedback, good or bad, and advice on moving toward a more musical style.

Edit: Or I'll just take the above advice :cool:

When I say Melodic and Musical, THIS is what I'm talkin about!


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Hello Wilbur -- I don't know if this qualifies as "wisdom" but from my experience, and as already stated by other posters, I believe that you should play with other musicians. Do this consistently and I think you will be surprised at how much you improve.

My situation is similar to yours -- I've spent a lot of time in grad school and I now have a busy professional life. But guitar is what I love best.

I've played since I was 12. I've been in a bunch of bands, but I never really had the opportunity to "stretch my wings" as a guitarist. About two years ago, I started playing regularly with some friends. Not a great band, but not bad either. We even play a fair amount of material I'm not very fond of. However, the weekly live practice with my friends has improved my playing immeasurably. I'm still far from a spectacular lead guitarist, but stepping into that role for the first time has really allowed me to grow.

In your case, I think your sense of frustration would be lessened if you were able to put to use the skills you acquired through all of your practicing. Playing Phyrgian scales all be yourself doesn't sound like a lot of fun. But playing a hot lick that you didn't know you had in you and makes your drummer shout 'yeah' is a really a trip! And a live audience can be even better.

I'd also recommend trying to push your personal envelope a bit. Listen to different music. Take note of the playing of guitarists whose styles you haven't yet learned. Try playing different styles of music. Can you do Chicken Pickin'? Can you do a decent Keith Richards? Jimmy Bryant? Only a few examples here, but the point is there is so much great music in the world that could inspire you! Find some of it, enjoy it and play it!

I'd also add that this should be an enjoyable thing for you, and in reading your post, I don't get the impression that you love to play. I may be completely wrong here, but why do you play? What do you get out of it?

Don't worry about crashing & burning when playing with others. If you have great chops from all of the practicing you've done you'll probably have no problems. But even if you have a hard time at first, don't be discouraged. That's usually the case when trying anything new. Try to play with an assortment of different folks and see if you can do a 1-2 night per week get together in a situation that feels good. It will do your musical soul good.

Phil

ps Sorry, I couldn't resist the Mr. Ed reference :)

Hmmm....well, not a lot of comment on this T-licious

These are two different approaches and I appreciate you having the cahones to put yourself on the tube for us.

So...that sounds a lot to me like the tune "the sky is crying"...SRV and clapton have both played this extensively of course. As a kid, I'd put on the EC is here record and play along to the whole side of this solo over and again (we didn't have backing tracks and instructional stuff in those days) and by doing this, you get a sense of phrasing and such.

The track you cite though, is pretty standard "blues fare" of that ilk...don't get me wrong, it's good, so is yours in a more boogie kind of approach...but it is mostly learned licks and the phrasing here is very much short statements of similar length and placement, similar bent notes, etc.

...

So, listening, really listening is key. Maybe you need to seek out some artists that really capture your imagination, some of this has hints of Roy Buchannan that was also a big influence on me, but perhaps not quite as inventive as Roy on a good day!

ok...so when I say listening, get a paper and pencil...listen to a solo or whatever, preferably a whole song, that you really admire.

Go through the song or solo and write down the bits you particularly like in a kind of time line. Note the phrases, how they fall within the bars and with the changes...do they outline the harmony perhaps (end on a significant note say), are there any particular gestures or articulations you like (bends or double stops or long sustained notes, or flurries of activity)...especially note where a phrase might 'echo' another (very common in blues, remember the blues form...sing a line, repeat a line (perhaps with more emphasis and over the IV chord), answer and resolve these first statements.

Can you hear that in the kind of example you have presented of where you want to go...I can...

...

Sometimes I might even use some made up lyrics or sentiments, or those of the song to inspire stuff. But in this style it does tend to be something like...

I really love you baby, especially all the times that were apart

ok...typical blues sentiment, got to say it again, did the listener really appreciate what you just said/played on the guitar...perhaps not...

so the next phrase is going to be the same, but perhaps with more emphasis...

Hey baby, yeah you baby! I really, really, really love you baby, and you know it seems to be, it's kind of strange, but...I seem to love you even, even more, yeah, even more, when we are apart...do you understand me now baby?

Ok...same thing, try and sing those two lines in a bluesy declamatory kind of way...or just say those words, as if you were serious...no laughing at the back!!!

Have a look, see how all these words are crowded in there, pay special attention to the commas and note the phrases "love you baby" and "even more when we're apart"...you'd be wanting that line to particularly echo each other.

I really did go "over the top" there, but this can help in lots of ways, and as guitar players, we are not having to actually say it...so that's a relief. However, you can see this kind of thing in the old Led Zep 'since I've been loving you" where Plant and co have no problem going nuts with this kind of thing....

Ok...so now you have called out, you have said your bit...and, just to be absolutely clear...you have said it again, as emphatically as you can...the esults likely to be a longer number of phrases, interesting breaks and rhytmic things, maybe some dynamics, certainly in this case more notes, perhaps a lot of bends or triplets...always good if you are thinking re-al-ly, re-al-ly, re-al-ly...etc

but to be effective, and to resolve the tension of this repetition and bombastic CALL, you are going to have to 'resolve' it with a clever RESPONSE...

Depending on your personality or humor or mood at the time, it could be any number of things...I'm making this up as I type you understand...however...you might be thinking something like...

CALL
I really love you baby, especially all the times that were apart
Repeat, but more so...

RESPONSE

A playful/silly response come to mind...

so, even though you annoy me baby, watch all kinds of weird movies and complain about me playing guitar...I don't mind little darling, I don't really mind, 'cause I know that when you are gone, it rips a hole right through my heart...

ok...so, perhaps you might tender it up a bit here, play with the dynamics, ease things back after all that fussing earlier...that's a resolution...

You might get a bit more "upset" perhaps...

That's why, I drink and smoke and drive too fast, you know when you leave me too long, toooo looong, like that baby, I'm like a loose cannon...you know I'm gonna blast, gonna blast...Blast!!!

Or even more 'wicked' depending on how you might be feeling or trying to express...like something like...

That's why why I go creeping baby, that's why I go creeping baby, that's why I go creeping baby...chasing tail like I got no class...or a word that rhymes with class...whew...you know what I's saying there baby

(yeah, in typical blues style, it's all her fault right, hahaha). Now imagine how you might "play" this and covey that...perhaps take the tone right down, palm mute all that creeping, end with a similar statement to the "call" phrases (that we're apart), add in a bit of a slide, and a little after thought to get you into the next chorus.

These kinds of things are "Parsody" and can be a really useful exercise...you can really practice this literally like this...eventually, you will pick up a bunch of ways of "saying things" without having to think of such scenarios, the guitar can speak on it's own.

For longer solos, you might think of a story that you can take the listener on...in the blues, there is a "form" that you should adhere to, at least so that you can break out of it to make a point...play right through the turnaround and into the next part of the story for instance to keep up momentum, I haven't finished yet...that kind of thing....

Now, there are all kinds of technical ways to do this with note choices as well...like avoiding the tonic so it doesn't feel like you are getting home before your story is through.

...

Not sure if that helps any, it might sound "silly" but it can work wonders.

It of course falls in with the 'singing' lines and phrasing things idea which is important, but adds also the "intent"...what exactly are you trying to say?

In order to tell an interesting 'story' you need to develop all manner or ways of expressing things...dynamics, phrasing, repetition, licks taken from others in the genre that imply certain things. It isn't literal of course, but taking it literally is a good way of putting intent into things and playing "from the heart"...

...

There has been lots written here and elsewhere about such things as target notes and such. Melodic theory is curiously absent from a lot of discussions, but it is an imporatnt thing, working this way may give you an intuitive sense enough for this style without having to get "technical" about it or having to learn new scales and things to get out of a rut.

Think about the way things that you like have a melodic contour...it's like the way an accent in speech works...different cadences to peoples voices and speech patterns. We are all pretty attuned to these things...so if you are "angry" you might be louder, higher in pitch, faster in speech, maybe not letting others speak by running a sentence like this way to long so as to get your point across. Then there are tender moments, less activity, caressing things...or perhaps just one note or little phrase will say all that's required. This is kind of how this kind of blues soloing "works"...there is often little in the way of remarkable melody to work off in this kind of blues tune or a backing track.

These things can be practiced and the rewards come to you in your own space...if or when you play with others, you will have a sense of "intent" and things to say, and a repertoire of techniques to express those things.

... but yes, go back and listen, especially find something that inspires you or that you'd like to be able to do...but don't just let it wash over you, get in deep, not into the notes, but what that music is saying to you, how is it saying that...ask, how would i say that, do I need to learn those exact words, or is it the 'accent' that I need to work on, the phrasing or whatever...

Some stuff, perhaps like the stones-y boogie things, are "stompers" and that can be a different "intent"...equally valid...play of the rhythm...I'm stomping down the street, look at me stomping, I'm gonna stomp on you like they stomped on me, stompity stomp stomp...etc... . In a rock blues, say the Who's 'wont get fooled again'...the guitar answers with a powerful punch to the face...sometimes you don't need to be wordy...it can be even more effective say, if you hold back, hold back...then explode...there's a lot of nothing, then an unexpected big gesture...not technically difficult, just a matter of "intent"...

Of course, you have to be careful what you wish for. Many find that they feel stuck, soon after, or just before they got to where they had hoped to be going...maybe you wanted to be a 'stomper' and now you feel like being more 'emotive' and melodic in the blues form, then perhaps you might find that that is a bit repetitive and cliched, maybe add some soul or jazz or folk elements in there...see how this is exactly what artists of longevity have typically done as well.

Get a sequencer. try out some progressions. A bit of theory maybe. Or maybe guitar is not for you. I make about 2 hundred a week playing for money and hopefully it will get better. I'll answer anything you got if I can but your might be better than me.

Wow. I've never heard anyone talk about guitar playing like that before Warming, very kind of you to put down those ideas for us. I'd never come across parsody before - it seems like a new and interesting way to look at the language of melody and phrasing with our everyday language and speech.

I'm going to take your ideas and put them to work with some of my favourite songs and solos and see how I go.

Hmmm....well, not a lot of comment on this T-licious

These are two different approaches and I appreciate you having the cahones to put yourself on the tube for us.

So...that sounds a lot to me like the tune "the sky is crying"...SRV and clapton have both played this extensively of course. As a kid, I'd put on the EC is here record and play along to the whole side of this solo over and again (we didn't have backing tracks and instructional stuff in those days) and by doing this, you get a sense of phrasing and such.

The track you cite though, is pretty standard "blues fare" of that ilk...don't get me wrong, it's good, so is yours in a more boogie kind of approach...but it is mostly learned licks and the phrasing here is very much short statements of similar length and placement, similar bent notes, etc.

...

Learn songs on the guitar. Learn to sing those songs along with the guitar.
-yer welcome

That right there is key to playing a complete song I'm finding out.

It all starts coming together after that. Just got the Mark Hanson books in my fingerpicking books thread down the page. Heck endorsed by Leo Kottke.
This should be all I need to get where I want to be.

Of course I'm speaking acoustically, to me since I picked up the guitar again after a 30 year hiatus "nothing sounds better and shows more talent than an acoustic fingerpicker and singer"
Who needs the drama of a band, listen to people like Keb Mo for example. I mean who can argue that?

To progress you need to put in the hours.
No way to avoid the necessity of playing.
I find that having a goal helps.
In my case that goal is usually a "gig" or tour or other "project" that most often involves payment. If you "need" money you may find it difficult to practice if you don't have any.
Its like trying to practice when your hungry. Your brain wants to practice but your body wins every time, until you feed the corpse, you can't concentrate.
Settle other life issues, clear the decks then practice.
4 hours a day is a good mark to hit whilst striving.
Listen to the music you love and then listen again. When you can sing it , find it on your guitar. Don't write it down. Memorize it. Then let it go.
Move on to the next "project".
Enjoy the process.
There is so much "educational" material around these days its difficult to choose one course from another. If you have good theory fundamentals you can ignore all that and apply your self to learning from the sources and apply your analytical skills as necessary.
If you don't have those skills your have 2 choices, either acquire them or listen and learn and ignore your intellect as it natters away insecurely about your technical foundation.
Many of the best players have little or no technical background.
What they do have is talent , determination and tenacity.
All without exception have learned their music by ear, by listening over and over again to their musical hero's.
Even in conservatory we were told ,if we didn't relish the thought of sitting for hours a day listening to music we were preparing for the wrong profession.
Listen and learn.

Tone--I know what you mean as I struggle with it a bit myself, but I think maybe you're being too hard on yourself, too. Your demo video was a fast shuffle and much harder to play a long solo--5 minutes? You've got some stones. I'd guess you would be much happier with yourself it you'd try the same 5 minutes over a slow blues like the SCXD vid. As for feeling stale, I think you could have an epiphany if you'd listen to some "players" in a style you don't typically play. Cop some Campilongo licks, or Vince Gill, or Paisley, Gatton, Mason, Weider. Personally, Jim Weider blows my doors with what he does melodically. Although he can play very fast, he typically plays more with less, great bends and stops, really interesting solo melodies. If you don't have his stuff on hand, you can find lots of great live material at archive.org. I've never listened to the country guys much (Weider isn't country), but they can rock hard in their own way and play amazing stuff. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Wow. I've never heard anyone talk about guitar playing like that before Warming, very kind of you to put down those ideas for us. I'd never come across parsody before - it seems like a new and interesting way to look at the language of melody and phrasing with our everyday language and speech.

I'm going to take your ideas and put them to work with some of my favourite songs and solos and see how I go.

Hey, no problem...I actually wrote that all a little off the cuff and it's ahrd to put that kind of thing out there...but for this kind of thing, it is something to 'think about' but rarely discussed.

Prosody (ooops, i spelled it wrong...my bad) is a song or music writing term generally...the music reflects the sentiment of the lyric say...in improvisation, the music could reflect the emotion or "inner lyric" of the player.

In the more specific way there are some conventions that might be worth noting...but this is a very generalized use of the concept...you could think also as if scoring a visual image or film, and this is an interesting exercise as well...but far less specific...

Using language though, is a great way to heighten the awareness of phrasing and intent. Developing a good vioce (tone, phrasing, licks, etc) is one thing...having something to 'say' is another...this kind of thing can help break a rut for sure..but it is very unconventional...easier to talk in more specific licks and theory of course.

Anyway a pot pouri of ideas in there.

I tell you something that influenced me and I was thinking back on. In my first year of uni, they asked us to "analyses" some music...I guess they wanted in part to see where we are at...a typical orchestral score, probably something like mozart.

Most of us came back with the usual stuff, the key, modulations perhaps...some more precises than others...and of course this is what they wanted and was appropriate. But one guy (well, we were young, so perhaps "kid") came back with an actual story, of images, birds flying, all kinds of stuff that the music "suggested to him" and there was some laughing I guess and some correction of what was expected...and fair enough I guess.

However, it has stuck with me for many years now that is that really not the essence of the effect that the music had, or perhaps what the composer had tried to convey or similar to the listener. Did he hear what was really at the "heart of things" while we dissected the mechanics, the note choices, the "theory".

I did 4 years at university including composition, and we never heard anyone speak of music like that again...but it has always stuck with me...

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Otherwise, using speech patterns and prosody and such is often used and the elements of how we naturally express ourselves is generally displayed in the forms I described...so, it isn't that far out there. The guitar is a difficult instrument like that, a sax player for instance or singer, will tend to really 'speak' through an instrument and it tends to be a bit more of a natural, unconscious or even necessary effect of playing music (you can only breath so long!)...with the guitar, it is often necessary to consciously put that in...

I had been reading just prior to posting a book by Hector Quine "guitar technique; intermediate to advanced" geared toward classical guitar.

So, I had just been reading this passage...

Phrasing and Articulation

Beautiful tone, however important, will not of itself guarantee a musical performance. An unphrased passage in music makes no more sense to the listener than a passage of prose read without punctuation or modulation of voice; try reading this page aloud, in a monotone, without pausing for breath, and ignoring all the full stops and commas! Singers, wind instrument players, and bowed-string players are all compelled by the technical demands of their instruments to pay very careful attention to phrase lengths....

The guitar does not have the same kind of technically compelling need for phrasing as other instruments, with the result that guitarists are hardly aware of it's existence. In printed guitar music too, phrase markings are rare. It is theoretically possible to perform an unbroken line of indefinite length on the guitar, and many guitarists, to whom the cultivation of cantable (thinking 'horizontally') {meaning melodically over harmonically or 'vertically'} does not come natuarlly, tend to allow the instruments left hand technique to dictate arbitary mid-phrase breaks, blurring of phrase endings, and unmusical hesitations and hiccups".

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HQ there is discussing classical guitar, either music written or the interpretation of composed music. Now, what we have here in addition is improvisation or 'instant composition'...so there is more of a need to have these ideas be intuitive...and so require more work to do so...

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As a 'practical tip'...along with singing, which HQ advises to make the process of interpreting things easier (but that doesn't address the idea of intent or what to "say" when improvising or indeed composing)...is to play 'horizonatly' along a string, rather than in position. I recall an interview where jeff beck said that as a kid, this was how he learned to play, picking out melodies along the string. Doing this for a bit, can help get more of a sense of the interval jumps and phrasing as a melodic line and break out of 'patterns. Good for accelerating the knowledge of notes along each string too!

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Anyway, the compliments are greatly appreciated, i did feel (like that "kid in class") that I was going out on a limb, but I have always found these things to be food for thought and easy rut breaking exercises before reaching into a bag of 'theoretical tricks" (exotic scales and modes or chord subs and arpeggios)...many, many great players abound, and tones of great songs have been written entirely or almost so, from the pentatonic scales say, many "in position" (that is not the "issue")...but all have had a mastery of phrasing and melody...or at the very least of intent, in what they are trying to convey. More so in a music like the blues that is so reliant on those aspects over harmonic or intrinsic melodic interest.

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Others too have had valid things to say as well, I learn and think heaps from reading these things as well.

That right there is key to playing a complete song I'm finding out.

It all starts coming together after that. Just got the Mark Hanson books in my fingerpicking books thread down the page. Heck endorsed by Leo Kottke.
This should be all I need to get where I want to be.

Of course I'm speaking acoustically, to me since I picked up the guitar again after a 30 year hiatus "nothing sounds better and shows more talent than an acoustic fingerpicker and singer"
Who needs the drama of a band, listen to people like Keb Mo for example. I mean who can argue that?

I liked the sentiment here too..this is something I am personally concentrating on as well, though is still draw inspiration from playing with others and being put on the "spot"...it is important to be able to play a tune on your own...one way or another.

Not everyone can find suitable musicians, many are not inspiring and may well be caught in the same ruts as we are as well of course, not always a good mix.

And often there is 'drama' or just simply lack of direction and compromise. It's good, but there is certainly 'more' and you do have to do some work to bring something to the table in a band...it doesn't miraculously happen just because there are other musicians around, if anything, you really need to know your 'stuff', whatever that may be.

Personally, I don't see the 'need' to abandon the electric guitar though for fingerpicking acoustic, the electric guitar is a valid instrument and hugely expressive as a solo instrument, even in that style should that be the direction one chooses. There are many things that the electric excels at the an acoustic simply can't do, so you know...horses for courses...and there are plenty of ways that one can 'play a tune' with or without a plectrum or abandon a genre or 'style'.

I've never personally got on too well with backing tracks though, and certainly never had the guts to put on a backing track to play a tune to someone who wants to hear me play in any kind of casual setting...to me it does come across as a bit, you know...karaoke...that's not so much a criticism for preparing to play with say a band or parts to a bigger tune, but as an end to itself, I feel it is far too limiting. I dare say, that time not playing to a backing and hearing how you can carry off something musical without that 'support' will lead to good results, possibly quicker, and more impressive to the general person and rewarding to yourself...and better inform what you do when it is there, or you play with others!

Warming, you could write a book on this, you're half way there now! Seriously though, some great ideas, you have clearly thought very deeply about what we 'say" when we play. And I am realising, playing guitar is using our voice, just not expressed through our mouth if that makes sense. You're not in WA are you? Perhaps we could get together and "have a chat" with our instruments!

Yes..well, I touch type too...not very manly I know...now if I thought and edited and touch typed simultaneously, perhaps I'd be more succinct....

Sorry, not in WA...in the other place, far to the east I'm afraid...will send you a PM ;)

+1 for playing with others ,try to find some Friends who are way better players than You and just jam with them as much as You can ,When I joined the band I have been in since 92 ,the lead Guitarist was the best I had ever played with,I answered an add for Rhythm Guitarist ,but We soon started sharing Lead duties ,We played together for about 3 Years before He moved on and I took over Lead,I feel the 3 Years I "apprenticed" with Him was crucial to My development, I learned more in that 3 Years than I had in all My years of practicing alone,and as for the Music store thing ? I can play with not TOO much anxiety in front of any size crowd ,BUT I still get Guitarstoreitis really bad ,I forget everything I have ever known and keep turning the amp down and always feel really uncomfortable ,so I got no advice there ,BUT I have always tried to surround Myself with Guitar players that I feel can outplay Me just to keep inspired .

hahaha

playing in a music store...i missed that...it can be a challenge...as a kid i remember doing it without qualms but as soon as I got any good I'd feel more inhibited...still do often, though it is kind of fun to do and a pseudo audience to try yourself out at...

Again, a situation and reason to be able to play something on your own, without a backing or a 'band'...much as you might have to do if you were auditioning or just playing for friends family or significant others or whatever...there are so many times like this.

At the very least, I think everyone has an obligation to themselves to learn a few 'party pieces'...and to be kind to the music store dudes...as the movies says "no stairway to heaven' (in fact you know there are a heap of tunes that one should just not play!)

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I am still iffy about the band thing, in my experience it can be fantastic, but there is as much likelihood that you will meet a fantastic player who will apprentice you, as you will end up being that player. Worse, you could be 'that player' and not have the education of passing it on because of personalities or 'musical differences'...there are so many landmines, in my experience it tends to be more often the other way around.

The other thing is playing with too many guitar players, compared to other players there certainly are a lot of us. Where I live is very remote, so there really isn't too many people at all about...but I did have the good fortune to meet a bass player who is learning from a great teacher and really taking the instrument seriously, reading well and a fantastic sound and enjoys playing a wide range of music. So, it's cool to help with any lesson stuff he has been getting into (improvising walking bass lines lately) as well as exploring his love of the james jamerson style that he learns note for note. But that's a rare find and a cross country drive of 60kms each way everytime we play. It would be great to get a little more 'serious and structured' with things and aim to go and play gigs or something, get some more players, but in reality it is tricky enough to juggle work and travel to do what we do do.

So...everyone's situation is different and playing together is definitely something that is good to do, playing in front of people, even in a music store often has the effect of making ourselves extremely self conscious...I believe that in fact it heightens our awareness of what we really sound like to others and can strip away a fair bit of ego, both essential for progress.

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But the guitar can be 'tough' for sure, and learning anything you go through plateaus.

Even though I am again concentrating on this side of things now, it has been vital throughout my playing time to have a few party pieces that I know absolutely and sound as good as they can be and naturally in my hands.

These serve the function of demonstrating to others that you can 'play' and why you pursue the activity (and spend time and money on equipment and wood shed away to 'get good') as well as something that will encourage you enormously when you get 'the blues' with this whole 'love/hate relationship with the guitar'...it gives you some proof and solace to yourself that with sufficient effort and dedication, you can play, even if it is just this one thing...and this sincerely helps.

Interestingly, it need not, and probably should not, be something technically difficult, many of the greatest things are so simple...you might try writing something yourself. It should be 'impressive' though, but for it's musicality and execution and tone, this all beats 'shredding' any day. It's also good if it isn't something incredibly well known or a complete copy of something people will hear all the time...not just for the music stores, but whoever you might play this too, they are likely to always have a thought in the head that it's good, "but"...not as good as the original (mixed on an album with a full band and orchestra perhaps by a world famous player who not only can play the thing but frequently wrote it too,and can do it in front of audiences to thousands with lights in the eyes while jet lagged!) or worse; "not bad, you should meet my kid brother, he knows all that stuff 'note for note' and killer at it!" These are real situations i have come across, absolutely.

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There is a point I know I got to where I got into the whole "lead player supremacy" thing as well, in time you learn that while this can be tricky and demanding, playing "rhythm" is or can be just as exacting role...it' seems peculiar to guitar players to be thinking like that, I don't think I've ever heard a piano player describe themselves as a "lead piano player" for instance, so hopefully, you start to see yourself as a musician in the service of the song...and a lot of the time, if not all the time, this consists of playing something and doing it well...and the technical stuff is just a means to the end, making some really cool sounds that others will enjoy and even admire. Often, usually, these are the simplest things and so I think this is where you should start and always return.

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Another good thing for the party pieces thing is to start every 'session' by running through it or a few of them to 'put you in the mood' and frame of mind. Iron out any rustiness and warm up, perhaps select pieces that are not too challenging that you can deal with 'cold' but will warm you up and get you coordinated. Concentrate on tone and articulation and putting the right sound out there. Include in the practice a bit of time getting a new 'party piece' down so that you will have a few. Also, when selecting things, have an 'audience' in mind, and not just or especially 'other guitar players'...think about your significant other (whats they're fav song say), or your mum or dad, or some guy who loves country music or blues or whatever, lots of 'classical pieces' are easy enough to play and adapt and work well on electric guitar, but there are lots of things you could go for (I'd love to know the kinds of things others play btw)

anyway, just a few morning thoughts before I get right into exactly that, warming the room up and getting set for a whole day of wood-shedding...the party piece working up "people get ready" with more than a nod to the jeff beck version but in a finger style which includes the bass and melody as an instrumental...why, great sound, not often played in music shops, familiar to a lot of people...and the jeff beck opening phrases are simple and distinctive, cool simple riff, can be played simply, lots of opportunity for it to grow technically.

I am probably the worst guitarist that has over 20 years experience playing guitar. I think I spent 19 of those years just playing chords. In the past year, I have acquire 4 electrics guitars and I am trying to play more lead music. I totally suck at it. I will probably never be as good as the kids on youtube but I don't really care.

One thing I have been doing in the past few months is to record myself. I think it's important to hear yourself when you are not playing. It gives you a different perspective. You can hear your error and you can work on what you need to improved. I don't be afraid to make a fool of yourself.

The guy sitting next to me at the office has it's own recording studio at home. It's his hobby and I make him listen to my recording all the time. He has a good ear and can tell me what I need to work on. Most of of the time : everything :-)