Fret Crowning Question

I'm getting ready to do my first fret level on my Squier Tele and I plan to use the method Ron Kirn posted here.

I don't have a crowning file yet and I'd like to know if it's okay to level now, play the guitar without crowning, and crown the frets in a week or 2 when I get the file. I guess I don't really understand the importance of crowning. I'm not doubting that it needs to be done, I just don't get it. What will happen if I don't do it?

Is it something that just makes the frets feel and look nicer or is it absolutely essential for intonation, sound, etc?

It's absolutely essential for intonation, sound, etc. Aside from feeling like crap as you slide up or down the neck, your strings will not be leaving from the center of the frets, and can even end up with a slight buzz as it breaks over the back corner and vibrates along the flat.

I see no reason at all to rush things until you're ready to actually complete the job. All you'll succeed in doing is making your guitar less playable for the interim period than it is right now. If you're going to bother doing it at all, do it right.

The frets should be crowned so that the center of the fret is the edge on which the string bends. If you don't crown, it will bend over the back edge of the flat (levelling flattens the frets) and you will have some buzz issues as well as some very slight intonation issues.

EDIT: David beat me to it =\

Okay, thanks guys. Makes sense. I can wait.

Slightly off topic but do you think it would be okay to use 120 grit instead of 180 for leveling? I found some 120 that fits for cheap.

Yes, I guess you could especially if you "go light" with it.

But I have to ask, how much does the correct sandpaper cost, a little over a buck a sheet?

David is dead on.... what happens is when the fret is flat on top, the point at which the string becomes free to vibrate is shifted forward a rather substantial distance.

While the intonation problems will be virtually unnoticeable on the first few frets, say to around fret 5, as you move further up the neck, that "shift" becomes a larger percentage of the distance to the next fret, by the 12th, it will be so far off, dogs will be howling, might even come gnaw your picking hand off to getcha to stop making all the noise.

Remember, when working on your guitars, patience is the key... wait for it to dry, wait until you understand, wait until you have the right tool.... you'll be glad you did.

There is nothing like the joy of learning how to do something, doing it, and having it improve your guitar... and there is not many things as disappointing as trying something you aren't ready to attempt, screwing the pooch, then having to learn how to fix what ya broke.

Ron Kirn

120 grit to level? Are the frets worn halfway to the wood? :lol:

I generally use 400 or 600 grit -- less roughness to worry about when polishing up the frets after recrowning.

- Scott

Yeah, I can't believe the coarse grits some of these guys use, but maybe I'm out of touch, since I prefer to replace 'em if they need such extreme leveling to all be even.
And then when I replace 'em, I start out with 800 grit (but my fret installation process is very slow. So any bragging rights get canceled out with that)

I'm getting ready to do my first fret level on my Squier Tele and I plan to use the method Ron Kirn posted here.



Can you post link, please?

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech/201556-fret-leveling-yer-tele-101-a.html

rk

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech/201556-fret-leveling-yer-tele-101-a.html

rk

hello Ronkirn

this is AMAZING stuff
Thank you very much for this tutorial :smile:

Can you post link, please?

I know Ron has already given you the link but I thought I'd point out that his thread on fretwork is a 'sticky' so it's always at the top of this 'Tele Tech' page.

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm doing my best to be patient and wait until I have the tools and a better understanding of things.

I know Ron has already given you the link but I thought I'd point out that his thread on fretwork is a 'sticky' so it's always at the top of this 'Tele Tech' page.

thanks :wink:

Well I got my crowning file the other day so last night I tried my first fret level. I thought I was doing fine but when I finished and put it back together with new strings I didn't get the results I was hoping for. I still have some buzzing on the open A and D strings and the action is not even that low.

I'm trying to figure out what went wrong. Maybe I didn't have the neck flat enough when I leveled? Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Could be your nut, saddles adjustment, loose truss rod, or overall setup.

Definitely not the truss rod. I kind of don't even want to bother with a setup because if the action is already high and it's buzzing what good would it do? I've tried the neck completely flat, a little relief, etc. to no avail.

I'm not saying the leveling didn't do anything positive, it is slightly better than before but I guess I was just expecting it to play the way I want and it's not yet.

Did you check if the neck was straight before levelling?

I don't mean to be condescending, but it doesn't seem like you knew all the ins-and-outs of guitar setup before getting into this.

If the neck is straight now, and the frets were levelled properly, I would suspect low nut slots for the A and D strings. Fret the strings at the third fret and check if there is a gap between the string and the first fret.

- Scott

[QUOTE=samato;2549291] I kind of don't even want to bother with a setup because if the action is already high and it's buzzing what good would it do? QUOTE]

Without a proper setup, frets leveled on a PLEK would buzz. Which includes

Proper neck relief
Proper Saddle height, intonation, radius
Properly cut nut
+ leveled, crowned, polished frets.

Sometimes, neck shims have to used in order to facilitate proper playing action.

I checked if the neck was level before starting to level but I could have been wrong as I'm not experienced at doing this. As far not knowing the ins and outs of this, DUH!!!!!! If I knew everything I wouldn't be here talking about my poor results would I?

I've been reading and researching as much as possible for quite a while but at some point you just have to do it and that's where I am with it. I'm not surprised I didn't get the results I was looking for on the first attempt. Things never go that easy for me.

I think I figured out what I was doing wrong, or at least one of the things I was doing wrong - bad crowning job. I was taking off too much with the crowning file and bringing the tops down, basically undoing the leveling I just did.

I also didn't realize my crowning file only cuts in one direction. I think I just need to improve my crowning technique and things should be okay.

Thats exactly what i did on my first fret level.

When I crown frets now, I crown them until the flat spot dissappears. so I go light .

Buffing them was never a big deal for me. I just sanded them real quick with 400 and took them over to my buffer. Makes them perfectly smooth and shiny.

I'm new to fret work too and just did my first fret level and crown on a tele cv50 neck. My turned out very good minus the fact that it seems a bit harder to bend strings...I'm guessing this is due to a poor polishing job. I also followed Kirns post to do mine.

I have questions about the crowning. I used the stewmac double edge crowning file:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Shaping_and_crowning/Double-edge_Fret_File.html

I first marked all the frets w/ a black permenent marker. Then I filed till the marker was gone. I filed back and forth and not in one direction - is that wrong? When crowning with that file I purchased should I only go in one direction? It took me over 1.5 hours to just do the crowning...I was filing like crazy (sweat was beading up on my forehead). It felt like I had to grind alot off to get the marker to fully disapear.

Getting ready to do my other CV neck this weekend...Any suggestions on what I should change up on my crowning technique - or is it more buffing?

It took me over 1.5 hours to just do the crowning

Something wrong there.. it should only take a few minutes...

r

Remember, the strings only hit the top part of the crown. If you are filing until all of the black mark disappears, I suspect that you are going way to far. I say this because it is doubtful that the curve of the file exactly matches the curve of the fret.

I believe that marking the frets would be done in the initial leveling and then just to indicate when they have all been "scratched/leveled."

The rest of the ink should come off in the polishing.

Hmm. the job turned out real nice but I must got carried away with the crowning file.

One thing to point out is that when I was crowning using the Wider side of the crowning file I noticed it was still cutting into the side of the frets. Like the frets were to fat for the crowning file. It made the frets look distorted in shape on their sides but not on the crown. Because of this I crowned those frets down till they looked good and even on both sides. I also noticed that once I got them to this size the black marker was almost all gone...only a few more swipes with the file and they disapeared.

Do I have the wrong size crowning file? The frets had alot of wear and needed to be leveled pretty good so maybe I flattened them down too much?

I don't know what the heck I did wrong but overall the neck plays great now as far as buzzing goes but it's a bit sloppy looking on some frets (can see crowning file marks on side of frets not top) and seems a bit harder to bend strings.

I hope we can continue this discussion on crowning here and try to get to the bottom of it because I know I still don't get it. I realize experience is the big factor here but hearing from people who know helps too. I think I'm okay with leveling now but crowning seems like the more artistic part of the job.

I think I'm still not doing it right because I still can't get the action as low as I'd like without buzzing. I'm at 4/64 on all strings at the 17th fret (on a 9.5" radius neck). High note bends aren't choking out. Overall the setup is decent but shouldn't I be able to go lower? Maybe my touch is too heavy for super low action but I've played guitars with the kind of action I want and they worked, I just haven't accomplished a setup like that myself.

jwayne,

As far as it being harder to bend...

A really good tech I spoke to the other day told me he always polishes out to 1000 grit, whereas the other guy he works with (who is even more experienced and knowledgeable) only goes out to 400. He says he can really feel the difference. I know both guys are very good at what they do so it must just be a personal opinion thing based on how sensitive you are to that kind of thing and/or your playing style.

I don't know. IMO 4/64 is pretty darn low. I can play mine at 4/64 but I tend to play a bit hard and some notes buzz. When I move to 5/64 there is no buzz at all. The CV neck that I did is also 9.5 radius.

One thing I did in addition to Ron's post was add some frett fall off. I covered the 10th fret with 4 pieces of tape, remarked the frets on the upper register and leveled those until the black marker was off. From what I read somewhere else I believe this is supposed to give lower action to the upper registers. Maybe someone else can speak of what fret fall off is more intellegently.

samato - I think that it being hard to bend is due to my poor polishing job. On the neck I'm getting ready to do I'm going to polish it more out for sure...maybe to 800 or something. Then hit it with 0000 steel wool. Either way right now it's trial and error but I have not butchered anything yet some I'm forging forward - LOL

I wonder if re-crowning and polishing the neck I just did would screw up the leveling job? Maybe I should have used the medium side of the crowning file instead of the wide side? I think if I did this though the file would cut more into the sides of the frets.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech/201556-fret-leveling-yer-tele-101-a.html

rk

:shock: Bang up job, Ron...as usual! :grin:

As you know I'm far from an expert but I wonder the same thing. I think re-crowning and polishing again could indeed screw up the leveling job.

I have the same file as you and also used the wide side.

I wonder if re-crowning and polishing the neck I just did would screw up the leveling job? Maybe I should have used the medium side of the crowning file instead of the wide side? I think if I did this though the file would cut more into the sides of the frets.

It's possible. I always use my fret rocker after crowning to see if I filed anything down too far, and then I check again after polishing just to be certain. I usually find a couple of spots at each point in the process that need a little extra attention. It's incredibly easy to get a little heavy handed with the crowning file in a spot and take it down a couple of thousandths when you didn't mean to.

When I first started doing fret work, someone told me that good fretwork is like voodoo (which ain't entirely true, but it seems like it when you're still learning), and to crown the frets until there's the tiniest hairline of a flat spot in the center of the fret. This does two things: it makes sure the top of the crown of each fret is still level with all the others, and it helps you make sure you're filing the frets symmetrically. That tiny hairline will disappear when you polish the frets.

When I marked the frets again after leveling to begin the crowning I did so as I thought this would make it easy to tell when enough is enough....meaning when the black ink is gone move on to the next fret.

I think what I will do is lightly touch each fret with the crowning file, then polish up to 800 and buff. Also I need to take the edges off a bit which are a little rough after the level...I ordered a stewmac file for that..hopefully I get it by tomorror or on Saturday.

With the other CV neck...I think I'm going to practice on my stepsons guitar first...and then do my boss's starcaster...maybe after those two I will have a better idea.

This is another one of those things that takes lots of practice.

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but you also have to make sure that the neck is firmly supported along its entire length. If it's still attached to the body, the body also needs to be supported so it's all in the right position. If the neck is flexing at all (which it will if everything's not supported right) it will throw off the whole job.

Ah, so that's another thing I did wrong. I didn't have the neck supported. I did everything with the neck on the body, the body clamped in place, but nothing under the neck. Well, at least we're narrowing down the issues. All part of the learning process.

I used a pretty light touch and my level is not that heavy so maybe I didn't completely throw things off but I'm sure there must have been some flexing.

I once did a level & crown on my LP clone having it on one of those workbench mats that supports the neck above the bench. Wasn't even thinking. Finished the job, tuned her up, and it buzzed more than I ever could have imagined. Then I realized what I had done, and why the middle frets were so much higher.

You'll get there. There's lots to learn to get this right.

To keep mine level I just set the guitar flat then stacked up paper under the neck until from what I could tell it was supported. I just purchased the stewmac rock n roller neck rest: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for:_Cleaning,_maintenance/Rock-n-Roller_Neck_Rest.html

Should that give enough support to level frets or how it raises the body off the surface is a bad thing?

As long as you use a leveling tool somewhere around as long as the fingerboard, precise support is not critical, just don't get in the habit of pressing down on the neck, allow the weight of the tool to do the work. Where guys get into trouble is using a short tool and pushing down excessively.

Lots of guys just use small sand bags, it readily conforms to the shape of the neck and supports ‘em nicely


rk

I think I'll try the sand bags next time. My leveling tool is only about half as long as the neck so I could be getting myself into trouble. I probably need a better tool but I did notice the tech at my local shop uses the same tool I have. Of course he knows what he's doing with it.

I use a piece of scrap maple as my leveling tool. Its 1" thick, 2 1/2" wide, and about 21" long. I ran it across my jointer so that it is straight, then I spray glued a piece of 180 grit emery cloth on there.

Went home and had another go at it. Ended up taking the crowing file and giving each fret about 25 swipes. Next I took my stewmac file for rounding the corners (sorry forgot the exact name of the file) and went to work on that. Then I sanded with 320/600/800/1200 and washed off with mineral spirits.

Results:
Plays great. Action is set for 5/64 low E to just shy of 5/64 on the high E. Not shure if that would be considered low action or not but no rattles and plays great. The issue I had with bending strings is gone for the most part. I did not wax the fretboard when I was done and the board feels a bit tacky...so I'm guessing I need to wax it??

I also mared up the fretboard a bit. With the crowning file once and then with the rounding file a lot. It does not look great but the fret corners are smooth as butter and it plays fantastic.

It was a great learning experience and I look forward to doing this some more.

cheers - jwayne

I think that you folks are finding out, that this is indeed very difficult work to do correctly, and well worth the money that a good guitar tech gets to do the job. I would never attempt to rebuild my car's engine, or set a broken arm. I will let the professionals do those things.

To play really well, especially at those lower actions you are talking about, every fret on that guitar, needs to be the same exact height as every other fret. You have to realize that it is very difficult to achieve that kind of accuracy with hand held files? That is why the PLEK machine method has evolved.

Yes the guitar tech had to learn how to do that too, but he probably apprenticed in a working shop, like I did, and I doubt he was allowed to work on customers instruments until he knew what he was doing. When customers ask about learning to do their own work, I always recommend that they start out with a garage sale junker, or two, or even three...before tackling their best guitars.
Gene Warner
repairman