Songs with a flat 5 chord?

I listen to and play mostly country, but I would like to incorporate the flat 5 chord into a few songs...just because. Hopefully, my bandmates will be impressed. :neutral:

I'm certain I don't play a flat 5 chord in any songs right now, but I would like to listen to a few that do, and get a feel for when to change a major chord to a flat 5 chord for effect. Is this something do-able? What are some songs that use the flat 5 chord? Any country-type songs would be immensely helpful.

The 2nd chord in Ellington's "Take the A Train" is a dom7b5. I haven't encountered too many b5s in country music, but I'll give it some more thought. :wink: CS

I'm not sure if I understand the theory correctly but,you can take any dom7 chord
and play the Maj3-dom7 interval,it is a flat 5,[tritone]
for instance A7 spelled A C# E G=C# G F# E ,the F# being the odd note
Which is the 6 of A so the substitution is consonant

well, the first thing that came to my mind was "A Train" as well.

what do you exactly mean by "flat five chord?" just a root an a flat fifth? a major triad with a flat fifth? plus a flat fifth? dominant7b5, m7b5--there's a lot of flat fifth options...

Stella by starlight starts on a Min7b5 if thats any help.


I cant think of any examples in country

I'm not sure if I understand the theory correctly but,you can take any dom7 chord
and play the Maj3-dom7 interval,it is a flat 5,[tritone]
for instance A7 spelled A C# E G=C# G F# E ,the F# being the odd note
Which is the 6 of A so the substitution is consonant

I think he meant a b5 chord, like A7b5 = A C# Eb G

b5 (#11) chords are a dime a dozen in jazz, but I can't think of a
country song where they're part of the standard chord changes.
That doesn't mean you can't drop in a jazzy lick. Claim it was
a banjo roll! Instead of playing over G7 C you can play over
Dmi7 Db7 C. The Db7 creates a b5 sound over G7:



-----5-------4---|-------2-------------------
---6-------6-----|-----3---------------------
-7-----7-6-----6-|-5-4-----------------------
-----------------|---------------------------
-----------------|---------------------------
-----------------|---------------------------
Dmin7 Db7 C (C#11)


Here I ended on F# (C's #11) to test your love of that sound.

I'm not trying to change the subject but this thread makes me ask questions
Like why?does the chord I substituted for A7 C#G F#E invert itself every stepanahalf?
And still work for anA7 substitution,is it because there are just enough remnants of A7
To satisfy my perverce sence of Harmony?Some end up being flat 9 chords
I hear talk also of 6-9 chords WTF? are thier significance

I'm not trying to change the subject but this thread makes me ask questions
Like why?does the chord I substituted for A7 C#G F#E invert itself every stepanahalf? And still work for anA7 substitution,is it because there are just enough remnants of A7
To satisfy my perverce sence of Harmony?Some end up being flat 9 chords


It's not clear to me what you are trying to say. Are you talking about diminished sevenths chords:

C#dim7 = C# E G Bb
Edim7 = E G Bb C#
Gdim7 = G Bb C# E
Bbdim7 = Bb C# E G

(^^^ using enharmonics for simplicity)

Note the chords are built out of the same notes. That's diminished sevenths, for yah.


I hear talk also of 6-9 chords WTF? are thier significance

Complete change of topic, right? The classic 6/9 chord is built out of the notes 1+3+5+6+9. It's a jazzy major chord, that's all. Think of the Beatles:

X43344 -> x32233

I guess I don't know enough to ask the question without the vagaries
My guess is I'm talking dim chords and the 6-9 question is another subject
The terms I learned years ago for what I'm talking about are min7 flat5 substitutions
Just trying to apply the theory,neversaw much use whenI was younger

Can you be more specific? Give an example?

I listen to and play mostly country, but I would like to incorporate the flat 5 chord into a few songs...just because. Hopefully, my bandmates will be impressed. :neutral:

I'm certain I don't play a flat 5 chord in any songs right now, but I would like to listen to a few that do, and get a feel for when to change a major chord to a flat 5 chord for effect. Is this something do-able? What are some songs that use the flat 5 chord? Any country-type songs would be immensely helpful.

You're probably referring to a dominant 7b5, right? That's a very strong sound that is all over the place in jazz. There are many possible applications. You could start with something simple just to get the color of the sound in your head. I just tried it out on Sweet Little Lisa, if you're familiar with the Albert Lee version. When you play that E7 chord for two bars at the end of the chorus, try doing this:

Play the E7 cowboy style at the 5th position, only play a low B with your ring finger (instead of the E on the 5th string). Play it that way for for 1-1/2 bars, then drop the B to a Bb for the last two beats before heading back to the A (your ring and middle fingers will have to swap strings). The bassist should be hanging on the root so as not to clash. Hope this makes sense.

A nice voice leading for flat 5th dominant chords is between minor eleventh two chords and another minor 11th or a major 7th tonic chord. The dominant 7th flat 5th chord is often used as a tritone substitute (its root is a tritone, three wholetones, above what it is subbing for). It is also used often for the two dominant (AKA secondary dominant V7/V) as in "Take The 'A' Train" or any number of Bossa Nova tunes with similar changes like "Desafinado" or "The Girl from Ipanema." Also see "Pensativa" and "One Note Samba" for the use of frequent Dom.7b5 chords.
For some smooth voice led shapes try:
Am11 Ab7b5 Gmaj7 or (Am11 Ab7b5) Gm11
-------------------------------------------------------
-----3-------3-------3--------------------------1----
-----5-------5-------4--------------------------3-----
-----5-------4-------4--------------------------3-----
--------------------------------------------------------
-----5-------4-------3--------------------------3------

and on another string group:

Dm11 Db9b5 Cmaj6/9 (or Dm11 Db9b5) Cm11
-----3------3-------3-----------------------------1-----
-----5------4-------3-----------------------------3----
-----5-------4------2-----------------------------3----
-----3-------3------2-----------------------------1----
-----5-------4------3-----------------------------3-----
----------------------------------------------------------

These last minor 11th chords are often followed by another dom7b5 chord a half step lower as is done in "One Note Samba."

You're probably referring to a dominant 7b5, right?

I guess.:confused:

Not being into jazz, I get lost in all the theory on this site. When I play, it's usually ad lib solos over simple chord patterns (major, minor, 7ths). Lately, I've been changing some chords in a few measures...not the entire measure...but maybe the last beat of a measure. Been trying 9ths, augmented, diminished...mostly just changing up the triad and not extending the chord beyond 3 notes...they are sounding kinda OK as long as I don't hang on them too long. It adds a walking up or down quality if done right. I didn't know that a flat 5 chord had to have a flat 7 in it also.:oops:

I didn't know that a flat 5 chord had to have a flat 7 in it also.:oops:

b5 chords sound jazzy (even in non-jazz contexts) and sevenths are just part of the furniture when it comes to jazz chords -- you never play just a major or minor triad. The seventh can be a flat seventh (minor 7th) as in:

Gmin7b5 : 3x332x
or
G7b5: 3x342x

or the seventh can be a major 7th:

Gmaj7#11: 35443x

The b5 and #11 are the same note, but let's not get into theory.

Here's a chord progression. Spot the b5/#11s:

x77787
x67678
x55565
x43453
x32442

... I didn't know that a flat 5 chord had to have a flat 7 in it also.:oops:
Not to get too much into theory, but there's no b5 triad. For example, C E Gb is the same thing as C E F#. The E and the F# are just a whole step apart (two frets), so that's not a triadic structure anymore.

However, you can have the structure C Eb Gb -- flat 3rd and flat 5th -- that's called a diminished triad. Hope that helps and isn't more confusing. ;-) CS

Not to get too much into theory, but there's no b5 triad. For example, C E Gb is the same thing as C E F#. The E and the F# are just a whole step apart (two frets), so that's not a triadic structure anymore.

However, you can have the structure C Eb Gb -- flat 3rd and flat 5th -- that's called a diminished triad. Hope that helps and isn't more confusing. ;-) CS

Thanks. But I don't what to confuse the naming of things with their existence. You can play:

xxx552

Without being forced to name the top note Gb or F#, and without anyone waving their arms and saying "that's not a triad, BiggieD!" :lol:

I guess.:confused:

Not being into jazz, I get lost in all the theory on this site. When I play, it's usually ad lib solos over simple chord patterns (major, minor, 7ths). Lately, I've been changing some chords in a few measures...not the entire measure...but maybe the last beat of a measure. Been trying 9ths, augmented, diminished...mostly just changing up the triad and not extending the chord beyond 3 notes...they are sounding kinda OK as long as I don't hang on them too long. It adds a walking up or down quality if done right. I didn't know that a flat 5 chord had to have a flat 7 in it also.:oops:

It's easy to get lost when you have so much coming at you at once. It's all relevant and useful, but you have to start out with the simple ideas, especially in the absence of a structured course of study. Your approach is a great way to begin. Keep playing those chords at the end of a bar. That's where you hear them oftentimes for reasons that might seem complicated at first. Try this little exercise: Play that example I mentioned above and take notice how the Bb note resolves to the A in a half step movement. Matter of fact if you play the entire E7 bar you'll see how the bass line moves chromatically from B to Bb to A. Sound nice? Now try it on the higher strings using the same tones as melody lines instead of bass notes. Use 3 or 4 note chord voicings, it's all you need and it will make it easier.Want some more fun? Take that b5 chord at the 5th position and slide it up to 11th position. Your hand has the same grips but the notes are now upside down in order.
Once you internalize that sound of the b5 resolving to the root of the I chord it will be time to see how the #5 resolves to the 3rd of the I chord.

Ma - RI - a.

Thanks. But I don't what to confuse the naming of things with their existence.
You're absolutely right, of course. He had said he didn't know a b5 chord had to have a 7th in it, and I was just trying to explain why there's no b5 triad. But yes, you can play those notes without fear of getting busted by the Music Police. :wink: CS

Ma - RI - a.

How do you solve a problem like....Dang, wrong song!

OK, what're the notes?

Ma - RI - a.
Are we talkin Like SA MI PA DHA NI?
Sorry I have to interject a little levity, as you can tell,I'm full of it

How do you solve a problem like....Dang, wrong song!

OK, what're the notes?

Originally Posted by klasaine:
Ma (1) - RI (b5) - a (5).

It's the first thing I think of when somebady says 'whats a song with a b5'

"A-Train" is my 2nd choice
Zep's "Dancing Days" main riff starts on a b5

Originally Posted by klasaine:
Ma (1) - RI (b5) - a (5).

It's the first thing I think of when somebady says 'whats a song with a b5'

"A-Train" is my 2nd choice
Zep's "Dancing Days" main riff starts on a b5

Well, that's a song where the melody have an interval of a flat 5. I thought we were talking about chords with a flat 5, like E7b5.

Here's D7-D7b5-G. The b5 is the bass, so that may not be what you want.
-------3-----
-3--3--3-------
-5--5--4-------
-4--4--5-------
-------5-----
-5--4--3-------

Here's D7-D7b5-G. The b5 is the bass, so that may not be what you want.
-------3-----
-3--3--3-------
-5--5--4-------
-4--4--5-------
-------5-----
-5--4--3-------



Leon,
That's the cool thing about that voicing you used, it is both a D7b5 in second inversion and an Ab7b5, different books call it different names, but the notes are there to make it work for both roots. I hear yours as either; however, I can see naming it as a D7b5 is easier for the memorization of the voice movement, just flat the D7's 5th instead of renaming the root.
Brian

Autumn Leaves is a great example.

The A section is major and the B section is minor.

I love the composition of this tune.

The b5 is F#minor7th b5


http://www.jazzyourass.com/image/image_gallery?img_id=11566&t=1201249927062

Leon,
That's the cool thing about that voicing you used, it is both a D7b5 in second inversion and an Ab7b5, different books call it different names, but the notes are there to make it work for both roots. I hear yours as either; however, I can see naming it as a D7b5 is easier for the memorization of the voice movement, just flat the D7's 5th instead of renaming the root.
Brian

Yeah - If you call it Ab7b5 you can claim a tritone substitution, a twofer.

Apropos of nothing (a phrase I never used to use), I remember my transition from jazz improv to quote-unquote 20th-century composition. I didn't know any composers at the time, so I was swimming alone. I can still remember how my room looked to me and the weather outside when I came to terms with the idea that anything that I heard could be explained by theory somehow. So, I very gently let go of triadic chords and their names and functions, and started to conceive my music as strands of melodies. If the vertical component was dissonant, I figured it could either be the upper extensions of a chord (an idea common with the jazz people I knew in 70s) or could be the result of one voice anticipating a resolution or another voice the result of a delayed resolution. In terms of my ear, all of the notes in my compositions (or improvs at the time) could be understood if one spent the time figuring out why. In retrospect, I can't believe I gave my ear that much authority, but it really helped free me to compose by ear without worrying about the theory police. I now know that there are no theory police. Those who care about rules don't know enough to create or enforce them, and those who know enough to enforce them don't think of music that way. In my experience, of course.

Ma - RI - a.

as in - The - Simp - sons..


"Dancing Days" - Led Zep from "Houses of the Holy" The very first note of the guitar riff.



Doesnt sound Jazzy to me.

But it sounds really good.

Not to get too much into theory, but there's no b5 triad. ...


What would you call the first chord in The Guess Who's "Undun"?

What would you call the first chord in The Guess Who's "Undun"?
Sorry, I'm not familiar with it. :confused: But if you have a link I'll be glad to give it a listen. Thx, CS

Here ya go:


VLMF5GM0Kt8


The first two chords are (IMO):


-----------------
---7-------7-----
---9-------8-----
---10------9-----
-----------------
-----------------
Cflat5 B

[QUOTE=emu!;2303334]I listen to and play mostly country, but I would like to incorporate the flat 5 chord into a few songs...just because.

Every country player has reason to play Willie Nelson's "Night Life".
The turnaround is,at heart, a 1 6 2 5 turnaround.
In the key of C, that would be a bar each of C, A, D, and G.

In Buddy Emmons' famous recording with Ray Price, he treats us to a slew of b5s.
In the key of C, that famous line is a bar each of C, Eb, Ab, and Db. Strictly speaking, it's Cmaj7, Ebmaj7, Abmaj7, and Db9b5 (or Db9#11).
All of those chords are built on intervals a b5 away from the vanilla 1625 turnaround.
And the final chord - Db9#11 - a Db9 with a G note available, is a "flat five chord" substitute a b5 away from the vanilla 5 chord. And the flatted 5th is what makes that #11 the money chord.

This takes longer to explain than to hear,
Just flat the 5th of some major or minor 7th chords. Fall in love with the zesty, piquant clash of the notes.
Then use it everywhere you can until the Leader asks you to stop.
That's what every other serious country player does at some point.
Good luck and break a leg.

Every country player has reason to play Willie Nelson's "Night Life".
The turnaround is,at heart, a 1 6 2 5 turnaround.
In the key of C, that would be a bar each of C, A, D, and G.

In Buddy Emmons' famous recording with Ray Price, he treats us to a slew of b5s.
In the key of C, that famous line is a bar each of C, Eb, Ab, and Db. Strictly speaking, it's Cmaj7, Ebmaj7, Abmaj7, and Db9b5 (or Db9#11).
All of those chords are built on intervals a b5 away from the vanilla 1625 turnaround.
And the final chord - Db9#11 - a Db9 with a G note available, is a "flat five chord" substitute a b5 away from the vanilla 5 chord. And the flatted 5th is what makes that #11 the money chord.



John Coltrane turnaround, or actually more precisely a Tadd Dameron turnaround. Great sound, especially in the Willie Nelson context.