Auditioning Tone caps...a MUST...

I had to rewire my Springsteen clone and while I was at it, I made up a couple of alligator clip leads so I could try out a couple of tone caps without soldering.

Man o man, what a difference tone caps make. I've got quite a few I've collected over the years and the older ones DO sound better regardless of what anyone says. The little orange drops Fender includes with their CTS pots are way to thin and tin sounding and definitely side on the treble end.

The Jensen I bought from Angela does sound good for a new cap.

The Cornell Dubliers from the 50's are the mack daddies. I can see why they define the sound on the earlier blackguards. Rich and warm. Unfortunately my stash of these old caps are cranky and noisy and basically unusable.

I have several old tubular Solar Caps from the 40's that are in mint condition in the .05 rating and they sound incredible. Very warm with just a bit of a growl. Hard to explain.

Next are the tubular Soviet military metal enclosed caps I've had for two decades. Another good possibility. Similar sound to the Solars. They sure look cool. Very high tech!

The Jensen fits better as the Solar and Soviet caps are just shy of being the length and circumference of a AA battery, but I can wiggle them to fit.

I recommend EVERYONE do this if you don't all ready. Aside from learning how different caps sound, you can also see how moving them around to different lugs affect other things in the electronics stream. It will help your next troubleshoot. Helped me TONS.

Now to pick my Capacitor...Decisions decisions...

Please tell us what the capacitor values were of each type you tested.

Also, did you test the capacitors to measure their current value.

That would be useful information.

The Solars are rated at .05 and unfortunately I didn't rate any of them (it's my next step once I get a new multimeter).

The Soviet MilSpec are stamped/rated at .04788

The Solar and Soviets are sealed, so I am assuming that their values are still close.


The Angela is rated at .047

My old Wax/Paper C-D's are .05, but as I stated, they are just too old to use.

The Fenders are of course .047

I know testing them will give me a true value, but it all boils down to what your ears hear and like/dislike.

I'm always interested to see what people find when they test caps.

To be honest, I think in most cases, the $1 polyester Orange Drops are fine for me, but I'm willing to keep an open mind ... or open ear. :smile:

The late Ken Fischer had some interesting comments regarding caps. He felt that although foil caps didn't have polarity, they did have "directionality", since one lead goes to the outside, and the other to the inside of the foil. He suggested testing caps both ways to see which sounded better.

Sozo caps also discusses this a little.

Rolled foil caps should have the outer end to ground, there's no polarity but it provides some shielding.

Tolerance can be all over the place on some, a 50nF 30% could be 35nF to 65nF from new. Most age worse, hence a capacitance meter measurement is nice.

Waxed paper melts to useless. Ceramic tend to disintegrate by shedding lumps of clay. Some metal foil and can types could have inductance too. On some guitars, I've taken to using two tone pots at 22nF and 47nF to give high and high-mid roll-off, also with a 1.5mH simplified varitone, gives a huge range of tones.

I've done this test myself but not with anything exotic, just new ceramic, mylar, polyester and orange. Couldn't hear any difference except on value.
F = 1/(2piCR)

Interesting. I shall have to rummage in my junk boxes and experiment.

this beginner is happy to see posts like these.
alligator clips and a vaiety of caps are now an obvious "must have" while learning.
thanks,
mj

I will try this out.
Why do you think the older ones sound better? Aging? better build quality back in the day? I dont quite get it.
Also, where did you get stuff from the 40s?
:)

If you really want the most objective appraisal, get some assistance from a friend, and push-pull pot somewhere in your guitar. Have a friend connect the caps to the switch, and without your knowledge of which cap is linked to which position, play it for a while and see which you like better. If you want to be more thorough, have your friend remove and reinstall the caps a few times, with a flip of a coin as to which position gets each cap each time. Keep track of your results, and make your final choice based on those.

I'm not in any way, shape, or form, suggesting this to be the case here, but so often in determining upgrades people can tend to hear with their wallets. The more expensive or rare the component, the more results are likely to be preferred. Sometimes the more prestigious component will indeed be better, but there's no substitute for a well controlled blind test (switching in real time) to be sure.

While I have the ears of a few cap aficionados (sounds like a magazine, eh?), let me ask you this -

Of all the commonly available caps out there, if only two were to be selected of the same test value, which do you feel would be the two most different? Ceramic against PIO? Maybe Audiocap, or a Black Beauty? Which do you feel would offer the absolute most distinguishable results from one another in a traditional tone circuit?

Why do people hear such a difference in the old caps? The main reasons I think of are 1) they degrade more than modern caps, so you are more likely to get something WAY outside of the specified range. 2) Reverence for all things old -- if it is old, it MUST be better...which seems to apply for everything except for women and televisions. 3) They typically cost substantially more (or are just generally more rare) which most people equate with quality.

I have yet to find a single scientific experiment that can produce measurements to back up any of the claims made about caps...

I have yet to find a single scientific experiment that can produce measurements to back up any of the claims made about caps...

I'm working on the preliminary stages of such a test right now.

Here's a discussion from another forum - my testing procedures are only a subtopic of the thread, so I'll just link to the individual related posts.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=7500113&postcount=11
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=7506247&postcount=22
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=7528114&postcount=29

If you feel like reading them, I certainly welcome any feedback. Not sure when I'll really proceed with this. This is purely a side project of personal and professional interest, of which I have no real stake in the results either way, so it hasn't been a huge priority. I hope to get started on it relatively soon however.

Edit: Actually, this survey would not be intended to produce measurements to explain any differences. The intention is to qualify, and not to quantify any observable changes at this point. If results do indeed show distinct observable differences, then it would be interesting to proceed with more technical research (much already done, no doubt) to explain exactly how or why these changes occur. That is not the goal of this particular survey however.

The setup sounds reasonable, but not ideal. Ideally, no-one involved with the project's results would know which is which until all data is collected and all trends analyzed. This would give a situation more similar to a double-blind study.

The easiest way to accomplish this would be for you to have someone else solder the caps in place for you, then have them completely removed from the study until the end. No one under any circumstances opens the guitar until all results are collected.

From what I understand, you plan to run 2 trials with the only difference between the two being the positions of the caps (you just swap the position of the "odd-man" with one of the non-"odd-man" caps). I would suggest also adding a third trial whereby you have all ceramic caps of the same value (no "odd-man").

While these kinds of studies are interesting, I would still love to see some cold-hard numbers and physical measurements. If we can hear it, there MUST be a scientific explaination.

Here's a really good set of articles I read a while back in Premier Guitar Magazine (online)
It deals with this very subject. As a result I scavenged an old radio for some caps and tried an old ceramic disc with a value of .1 in my Strat, which I've modded with an old Gibson mini-hb from an LP Deluxe. The difference really kicks in when you dial off the tone knob. That's the key in my opinion. These adjustments are probably only valuable to those who actually adjust their tone knobs. If you just play with the tone pot full up all the time, you probably won't see too much of a difference by changing caps.

It's been my experience that the standard values you find in most guitars don't give you much range of control below about 7 or 8 all the way down to zero and like another poster said, usually sound thin or tinny.

Anyway, changing to a crusty, old lower value ceramic disc worked for me on my particular guitar. But like the article said: "Good is what you like". So, to each his own.

Here's the link to the article(s):

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Apr/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors_Part_II.aspx

Enjoy !

The setup sounds reasonable, but not ideal. Ideally, no-one involved with the project's results would know which is which until all data is collected and all trends analyzed. This would give a situation more similar to a double-blind study.

The easiest way to accomplish this would be for you to have someone else solder the caps in place for you, then have them completely removed from the study until the end. No one under any circumstances opens the guitar until all results are collected.

Agreed. I had thought about this, and if the results were analyzed in their entirety, there would be little room for me to influence them in analysis one way or another. I would like however, to keep the possibility of analyzing select groups differently. For example, I will likely include things like "years experience" on the survey card (<5, 5-10, 10-15, 15+), as well as lines for musical style, influences, etc.

In analyzing results from these sub-groups, it would certainly be possible for me to cherry-pick (whether intentional or not) to find results favoring one side or another. I will probably have my apprentice install and remove the switch, and keep records or the positions secret from me until all analysis is complete.

At the risk of being quite stubborn ...

you can give me all the "scientific" evidence you want, but if I think I hear a difference between different caps, then I'm darned well gonna use the one that I think sounds better.

I usually have a problem with most people offering "scientific" evidence for a few different reasons ... usually, their ego or intellect gets in the way, and often, they have glaring omissions in the evidence they chose.

regardless of that, tone is often subjective, not objective ... you may often get a majority of people to agree that one tone is better than another, but then there is usually someone who disagrees ... we hear things differently, so even if you had so-called "objective" test procedures, the way we hear is different, so how do you account for that?

anyway, I mentioned Ken Fischer of Trainwreck Amps (http://www.ultimateguitargear.com/ken_fischer_chapter2_2.htm), because he both played and had the electronic background to have a fairly qualified opinion:

"Not to get too technical, a capacitor creates a phase angle shift. In a circuit with a resistor (pot) in series with a capacitor, this angle lags or leads, depending on the order of hook up. A personal note, never use a disc type cap in a guitar. They do not resonate right in a guitar circuit. A proper tone control should also add resonant tone as it is used, not simply flatten the high end.

Let's get to the important points of choosing a modern cap. First you want the correct value. Of course, feel free to try other values than traditional ones, if you are after something different. Most humbuckers use .022 (.020), and most single coils .05 (.047). You want separate film foil, not metallized types. Mylar and polyester film works better then polypropylene film.
Since pickups put out very low voltage, the voltage rating should not matter, but it does seem to have an affect. Traditional voltage values are commonly, but not always, 200 or 400 volt ratings.
The Black Beauty caps used in old guitars were typically the 400 volt type. Another interesting point is that, if you reverse the cap end to end, it will sound different in use. I jump mine in with test clips, run the tone control through its range, and use directions my ear choose. Also, if you have many of the same type, try a bunch of them. They will vary slightly from cap to cap. It's worth the time to choose one you really like with your gear.
Lastly, some people put a bright cap from hot to slider on the volume control. This is so the highs do not roll off when turning the control down. This is very amplifier/speaker dependent.
In any case, a silver mica type is my choice, if you use one. The value judged by ear, using your guitar with your amplifier. 30PF to 220PF is the most common range. Fender once did a Tele with a .001 (1000PF) --- OUCH!"

I will try this out.
Why do you think the older ones sound better? Aging? better build quality back in the day? I dont quite get it.
Also, where did you get stuff from the 40s?
:)

I don't know why the old ones sound better. Different material? I just don't know, but I can hear the difference.

I got the NOS Solar Caps from a guy in New Zealand. The old C-D and other wax/papers I've collected for the past 15 or so years.

I also forgot to add that I ran my guitar through practice amp and I attached headphones so I can really hear what going on, not only with caps, but with the rest of the circuit. I can hear if I have a loose or weak solder joint just by moving it a little bit. I can hear if something isn't grounded right. Tonight I plan on soldering everything up, and I will be wearing my headphones as I do it.

At the risk of being quite stubborn ...
you can give me all the "scientific" evidence you want, but if I think I hear a difference between different caps, then I'm darned well gonna use the one that I think sounds better.[/I]

I have to agree with Curly. In my book, guitars are more about mojo and vibe and tone. If there are some relatively easy steps I can take to change mine to my liking, I'm gonna leave the periodic table of the elements, the slide-rule and the Bunson burner out of it. No disrespect.

Good topic btw !!

Rob

I have no problem with people subbing in and out things to meet their preferences. The end-user isn't my enemy here. I do, however, have an issue with people who wind up selling caps (and many other things) promising this or that effect, but without any measurable proof (and then charge an absurd amount for it). For something that is so subjective (something you might call open and warm, I might call cold and tight, for example) as well as something that provides such a HUGE difference (according to the sellers of these things) I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is no measurable way to prove the claims.

No disrespect is meant, whatsoever, but the way I look at it is this: It's okay to fool yourself, but when you try to fool others and grab at their cash while doing it, you're kind of a dick.

This is coming from someone who has a pretty decent ear for minor changes in setup, but can't for the life of me tell one cap from another, so long as the values are right.

I agree LP.

I am not going to measure my caps or figure what they are made of (though I am sure that plays a factor). I am going to install the one that sounds best to me and I am glad I did this test.

Hey Boss. Which jensen cap did you like from Angelas?? They have one cap there that is $33. Is that it? Pricey

Thx!

I bought the .047 for $17.00. Was it worth it? To me yes, because the next step down was the Fender orange drops and I don't like them.

At the risk of being quite stubborn ...

you can give me all the "scientific" evidence you want, but if I think I hear a difference between different caps, then I'm darned well gonna use the one that I think sounds better.

I usually have a problem with most people offering "scientific" evidence for a few different reasons ... usually, their ego or intellect gets in the way, and often, they have glaring omissions in the evidence they chose.

regardless of that, tone is often subjective, not objective ... you may often get a majority of people to agree that one tone is better than another, but then there is usually someone who disagrees ... we hear things differently, so even if you had so-called "objective" test procedures, the way we hear is different, so how do you account for that?

Is it really necessary to put "scientific" and "objective" in parentheses, seeming to suggest that indifferent reasoning is somehow flawed here because it lacks "soul" or "mojo"?

I agree in the sense that tone is entirely subjective, and even if a change makes no "real" measurable difference, if the player feels better about it, it will sound better because they will sound better. If the sugar pill makes you healthy, eat it.

I'm not saying boutique caps are a sugar pill at all here, or don't make any real difference - my argument is on general reasoning, not the specific circumstances. In this particular survey I'm fully prepared to actually find very consistent positive identification in my tests if it works out that way, and would welcome the results.

What I seek is not a scientific explanation of why caps may offer different tones. Much research has already been done here in circuits like crossovers, and other circuits where the tone which we hear has passed through the cap. The mechanisms behind how caps may affect tone in a guitar circuit (where we do not hear any signal that has passed directly through the cap) are still a bit more widely debated.

I'm not trying to figure any of that out here though. All I'm doing is a test not at all unlike what Bossaholic has presented, only across a more limited scope, a bit more controlled, and switching in real time. What I want to gain from this is not the ability to squash peoples claims of magnificent improvement if they happen to love something that test the same as snake oil, nor to be able to sell a product if it indeed does make an enormous difference. What I want is simply to have a more objective (yes, "objective") understanding of what if any changes can be reasonably expected if a client is seeking my advice on upgrades or alterations.

Understanding these things I feel is part of my job, and even with all the caps I've replaced in my life, I still don't feel I can make as clear or reliable of recommendations as I may be able to with a bit more controlled research. There is a lot of snake oil in this trade, or things which can be persuasively argued to have significant effects, but fail to make any real change in the end. On the other hand, there are a lot of little changes which can have surprisingly large effects on tone, in spite of good reasoning that they should not. I feel caps are probably somewhere in between these two extremes, and I'd like a bit more clarity as to what components really do offer best results toward a particular goal.

I honestly find it hard to conceive why a rational survey like this would not be welcome by anyone wishing to better understand how much capacitor type affects a different tone. Perhaps you didn't read the survey plans (understandable, as I'm a bit long-winded), but I believe they should indeed prove to be quite objective, with personal subjective preferences eliminated as much as effectively possible.

It is difficult to be objective at times.

I put a 6-way rotary switch into one guitar and installed 5 different caps, all the same value, with one position not connected.

The caps had no effect with the A250k pot at '10', so where do you set the pot. Setting it at '0' results in uniform mud from all of the caps, at '2-3' seems to be the range where the most difference is discernible for different cap values (another experiment). So I fixed the pot there and only used the switch. I only tested new modern caps of the same 47nF value: ceramic, mylar, orange (poly), polythene, polyester. I did not try paper or rolled foil or anything old or exotic. I could not judge any difference, even between a ceramic and a polyester.

Regarding old caps, they may have degraded, hence it is important to measure them, to compare like with like. It is easy to hear a difference between caps of different value. Unusual caps may have some other quality such as a series resistance, or an inductive component, which may affect the sound in an non-capacitive manner. The effect of an inductive tone control such as the Varitone which combines inductance, resistance and capacitance is quite noticeable and distinct.

A good method for a real auditioning as suggested here ;)
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx

if i was to try different caps, i would at least measure them
you are trying some really old caps there you cant be sure if they value degraded or something
and there is tolerance, the real value of a cap with a tolerance of +-20% marked as 0.5 could be anywhere from 0.4 to 0.6

of course you dont need to know that to tell which sounds better to you, but it might save you a dollar to know why it sounds better.

Wow...lots of good info and input here. A lot to think about, for sure.

From a scientific standpoint, it makes sense to me that different capacitor types would have slightly different sounds. Back when Fender first reissued the '59 Bassman amp, they replaced the tube rectifier in the original circuit with a solid state rectifier, on the theory that it wasn't even in the signal chain, so how could it make a difference. It turns out it did make a difference: the reissue had a tighter, punchier sound than the originals, which tended to have a looser, warmer sound. We now know that the reason for this is that when the solid state diodes do their job, they do it almost instantaneously, resulting in a tight, punchy response. The tube rectifier, on the other hand, had a delayed response, with some models of tube having almost half a second of delay. This delay gave a looser, warmer sound to the amp. (Sorry for my vagueness with the terms. I'm not an electronics guy)
Both methods used the same basic principle of converting AC to DC. Each used different technologies and materials in doing so, and the result was a difference in tone.
The different types of capacitors we talk about as guitarists all work on the same basic principle of capacitance. They use different technologies and materials to achieve this however, and it only makes sense (to me, at least) that there may be subtle differences in tone as a result.

Or something like that...

From Terry Downs:

The capacitor (within a normal range of capacitance used in guitars) has little effect on how the tone control works until you have turned it down near the counter clockwise (CCW) position. The tone pot is a load resistor that damps out the resonance of the pickup's inductance and the cable/amp capacitance.

Near max CCW, the tone cap tunes the resonance down to a low frequency. The bigger cap, the lower the resonance.

Please don't get consumed with the hype about Vitamin Qs and other "vintage" caps. It's snake oil at its worst. The only parameter that comes into effect in a guitar tone control cap is the CAPACITANCE of the capacitor. Go to Futurlec Electronics and buy some Mylar green or red weennies for 7 cents each.

* If you use the tone controls near their max CCW positions, experiment with the capacitor value
* If you use the tone controls near their max CW positions, experiment with pot values and no-load options

I see where you are coming from, but the diode/tube rectifier to cap type comparison is like comparing a horse-drawn carriage to a sports car and then comparing a 4L engine to a 6L engine...

The caps rely on roughly the same concept and general structures (parallel plates with a dielectric material between them). They really only differ in a couple of ways (the plate layout--rolled vs unrolled, the dielectric material--different materials allow the plates to be closer or further apart without affecting the capacitance of the device, and the type of packaging). Tube rectifiers and solid state diodes are completely different in their methods of operation.

Gentlemen...

String up a couple alligator clips and test drive your caps and install the one(s) you like. Trust your ears and become one with your axe.

How are you testing them? With the tone control full CCW and then rolling it up?

Here's another post by Terry on the subject: Cap Stuff (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/2199386-post10.html)

Hi Fezz, if your question was addressed to me, I listened to them all the way up and down the dial, along with adjusting my volume control.

I would spend at least 10 minutes just fooling around with everything I could mess with in the mix.

I find it hard to believe that no one has run a controlled series of tests using a signal generator and scope to pick apart the peak, continuous and transient response to a frequency ramp of different capacitor types.

:confused:

different materials allow the plates to be closer or further apart without affecting the capacitance of the device,

This is the difference I was thinking of. And I think your analogy is spot on. The difference between a tube rectifier and a solid state rectifier is more like the difference between a horse drawn carriage and a sports car, while differences in caps are going to be like the difference between a 4 cyl. and a 6 cyl. But I think we both know there is a perceivable difference there. Ever driven a 4 cyl. Mustang? :lol:

For the record, I have experimented with a couple of different cap types of identical values in my main Strat, and I did notice a slight difference. I don't think I was being influenced by cost, as some have suggested. The Vitamin T cap I tried was $3.88, while the Sprauge Orange Drop was $3.57. I don't think the extra 31 cents swayed my opinion much, as I ended up choosing the Orange Drop.

One thing I did notice is the old Solars when toned up all the way sounds just like an old Jazz guitar. I couldn't believe my singlecoil overwound GFS's sounded like an old Archtop. I couldn't get that sound with any other cap I tried, even the C-D's.

I find it hard to believe that no one has run a controlled series of tests using a signal generator and scope to pick apart the peak, continuous and transient response to a frequency ramp of different capacitor types.

:confused:

http://terrydownsmusic.com/Archive/tone_control_response_500K.jpg

This is the difference I was thinking of. And I think your analogy is spot on. The difference between a tube rectifier and a solid state rectifier is more like the difference between a horse drawn carriage and a sports car, while differences in caps are going to be like the difference between a 4 cyl. and a 6 cyl. But I think we both know there is a perceivable difference there. Ever driven a 4 cyl. Mustang? :lol:

For the record, I have experimented with a couple of different cap types of identical values in my main Strat, and I did notice a slight difference. I don't think I was being influenced by cost, as some have suggested. The Vitamin T cap I tried was $3.88, while the Sprauge Orange Drop was $3.57. I don't think the extra 31 cents swayed my opinion much, as I ended up choosing the Orange Drop.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say that the Bassman reissue was as far apart from the originals as a horse-drawn buggy and a sports car, either. I was using the analogy more to explain that your comparison wasn't really valid.

Were they identical values based on the number on the cap (or packaging, or whatever) or were they identical based on a measurement? There is a tolerance on these things...

Hi Fezz, if your question was addressed to me, I listened to them all the way up and down the dial, along with adjusting my volume control.

I would spend at least 10 minutes just fooling around with everything I could mess with in the mix.

Well, the tone cap doesn't really start to do anything until you're almost full CCW. The pot is doing most of the work until you're about 2/3's CCW. And at full CW, the cap completely out of the picture. I have no doubt that you have found something that pleases your ears, but in my experience, a cap is a cap and the only thing that matters (in a guitar circuit) is the capacitance. And you can test different brands of the same value, but due to the manufacturing tolerances there can be as much as a +/-20% difference in measured capacitance.

Oh, boy. I'll step in.

A capacitor - especially a guitar tone cap - can only give different "tones" to the degree that is it NOT a capacitor. Here's what I mean:

http://files.me.com/bradpdx/tbm6xo

The tone cap simply connects to ground, bleeding away higher frequencies. The pot isolates the rest of the circuit (the pickup output) from the cap. Lower the pot and the cap is less isolated, resulting in the common interaction we all hear. It is a classic second-order damped resonant circuit.

If the tone pot value is well selected (like 250K for single coils) then there is really no demonstrably audible change if the cap is present or shorted to ground. Why? Because full up the turnover frequency is so low as to be outside the range of the guitar, and the dB difference will be negligible.

Simple and very, very approximate and cheap - which is what electric guitars were all about back in the day.

The interaction of a real capacitor with the reactance of the pickups is very, very predictable, and so if the capacitor is what it says it is then all .047mfd caps should sound THE SAME in this application. None of the factors that may affect cap performance are present here - no DC voltages, no high temperatures, nothing.

Hence the only reason why any cap might sound different - for better or worse - is that the cap isn't really just a cap. It has associated inductance that is altering it's behavior. However, it's pretty hard to find caps that actually do that to any measurable degree. They just don't. You can find inaccurate caps (+/- 30% perhaps) but not little inductors. Or diodes. Especially not at audio frequencies.

Also, read that tiny schematic. There is absolutely no mechanism that will affect the treble when the pot is all the way up. None. It can't be thin, it can't be fat. That would require elements in that diagram that do not exist.

So, count me as a capacitor detractor. I don't buy the "tone cap" arguments, and as a player I certainly don't hear them - and I've tried. I think my Tele has an Orange drop 'cause that was the one I found in the bin that afternoon, period. I use .047mfd because it works for me, but I can guarantee you that if I swapped in a .022mfd it would make no difference when the pot is full up. It would only do what it is predicted to do, which is to cut higher frequencies at any given point in the pot rotation when compared to the .047mfd. That's all.

I can count as experience many years of fooling myself about the benefits of tube audio in hi-fi applications. That too was my own hallucination.

http://terrydownsmusic.com/Archive/tone_control_response_500K.jpg

Perfect. That illustrates the behavior of a pickup/tone control system at different settings and/or values (I don't know just what your labels are).

I note that nowhere in this diagram is a separate graph for "Oil filled" versus "Orange drop". Because if the values are correct (e.g, both caps are at stated value), there is no measurable difference, and the audible differences are in your head.

I assume that everybody has read this (http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/). It is straight ahead and explains much.

I guess it's like wine.

I can't tell the difference from one brand to another. I just drink what I like.

That's Terry Downs' work above. Your post above was excellent too. Well done!
I don't doubt that people hear a difference sometimes, and the truth of it is if it makes you happy about your sound, then go for it. I use whatever caps I have lying around.:grin:

....... (I don't know just what your labels are).



The bold integers are the tone knob position 1 through 10, and the other number is the associated resistance of the pot set at that number.

Nice posts bradpx.

It's really difficult for some folks to understand that two capacitors marked with the same capacitance value, can actually have different capacitance values.

The bold integers are the tone knob position 1 through 10, and the other number is the associated resistance of the pot set at that number.

Thus the diagram illustrates why a tone "wah" effect works as well, while remaining in the frequency domain. Nice, Terry!

hey, David

Please don't take offence -- "scientific", in the context I used it was meant to denote a narrow set of evidence, as oposed to a truly objective test

my comment was not aimed at you, despite the fact that it came after your comment

I actually hope your tests bear some fruit.
Is it really necessary to put "scientific" and "objective" in parentheses, seeming to suggest that indifferent reasoning is somehow flawed here because it lacks "soul" or "mojo"?

I honestly find it hard to conceive why a rational survey like this would not be welcome by anyone wishing to better understand how much capacitor type affects a different tone.

You'll notice that I chose to quote someone who was both qualified in his knowledge of guitar electronics, and also used his ears while testing. (I was also surprised when I read his comment that a cap should add resonance, because that's what I found when comparing caps.)

As for my preferences, I found almost accidently that the Orange Drop I used to replace a ceramic cap sounded noticeably better, so I switched caps.
Recently, I used an RS wiring kit, and I felt that the RS cap -- I think it's an Auracap made for them -- sounded different. Actually, it sounded better than an Orange Drop in an Esquire, but I'm not sure it sounds better in a thinline. Go figure ... the guitars make a difference!

I'm certainly not trying to find objective evidence of "if" or 'why" caps sound different, but rather just trying to find what works best in my guitars on a case by case basis.

Incidently, a friend of mine put a Varitone in a guitar with different caps. I can't give you the exact details, but his conclusion was completely different than mine: he found no difference between different caps of the same value.

Despite the fact that he knew more or less what the components were, I thought it was a pretty good test because of the fact that he was able to switch caps in real time. In addition, he had someone else there who confirmed the same conclusion.

Thanks Curly -

Actually, I understand your frustration. Almost any test or theory on a subject with so many variables (especially one so subjective as tone) will have to seek out convenient formulas and systems which are fairly easily controlled. Whether intentional or not, there will almost inevitably be variables which were either left out due to complexity, or simply unanticipated (no one thought to test the O-rings at sub-zero temperatures on the Challenger until well after the fact).

I will try to be as open as possible in disclosing what I see as shortcomings in my own testing when I get around to listing the results, as there inevitably will be some. Because of this and other reasons, I doubt that any level of thoroughness in testing will satisfy everyone (what if someone feels the cable I used, or the input impedance of the amp nullified the results?). I do hope that the real-world, real-time, wide range of sampling will however offer some sense of reliability to the results for most, whatever those results may be.

Of course the test that I really want to do, is to install a ceramic, and orange drop, and some exclusive boutique cap (all of the same tested value) to a switch, take the guitar to a trade show where the vendor or manufacturer of said boutique pot will be attending, and ask them to play it and identify which position is their cap. :twisted:

Honestly though, I'm open to anything the results may suggest. Personally, my hunch is that the differences most people hear with different caps may be due to different actual values, in spite of what they may be labeled as. That, plus I'm sure a bit of placebo effect in some cases (I've heard many claims of people switching caps and claiming night and day differences, even if they never roll back their tone from 10).

We'll see. If the survey does show a significant portion of correct identifications, it wouldn't be the first time I will have been surprised.

+1 for the placebo effect, said the engineer.

I agree that people hear differences - this has long been a staple in the high end audio world and a plethora of small companies survive due to that fact. My conjecture as one with fairly deep technical knowledge of electronics and acoustics is that those differences are due to psychological effects to which we are all susceptible to differing degrees in different areas, myself included.

Hearing is the experience we have of sound interacting with our ears and minds. Sound is the objective event occurring outside your body, and they are most definitely 2 different things.

We all do things to make ourselves happy. If an oil-filled tone cap makes you play even a little bit better, then perhaps it is worth it to you.

I personally hear noticeable differences in the sonic effect of caps with different composition (ceramic, polyester, polypropylene, paper-in-oil) of the same measured value (.022uf for instance, or .047uf) when used as tone caps in a guitar circuit, listening to the sound with the tone pot in various positions from full up to full down. I find it hard to understand when people say that they can't hear the difference between different cap types in guitar tone circuits. There are all sorts of other electronic characteristics to capacitors aside from just capacitance, and just because the measured capacitance is the same, two caps of different materials and construction nevertheless have all sorts of other differences which can be measured if anyone wants to bother doing it and has the equipment for it. Why are so many people here opposed to the concept that different caps can sound different and insist that scientifically it's not possible? I have done alligator clip tests and found cap types pretty distinct from each other in sound, at least with my guitars and amps.

Wayne, do you care to tell us what kind of characteristics can be measured? Different compositions of caps don't have a substantial difference in inductance or resistance (certainly not to the point that it alters the frequency response of the cap). Furthermore, what is it that you are hearing? Most people talk about "this cap really expresses the mids" or "this cap really cuts the highs cleanly while retaining the lows" etc. etc. etc. but when you actually look at frequency response (and measure the highs, mids and lows) there is no difference...

My main reason for asking these kinds of questions is I would like to know what kinds of properties to look for. Does cap type X always have some quality Y that expresses itself in tone property Z? I've never seen this kind of correlation presented -- I've never been terribly fond of the "buy one of everything, find what you like and trash the rest" mentality...especially when these caps run $5 - $10 on the lower end of things...I've never heard those caps doing anything that my $0.07 poly film caps can't do.

LP, let me try to answer that since I just spent two long evenings really, really listening to different styles of caps, with different ratings through a set of headphones.

People can bring the science into this discussion/debate (which is something I would like to learn), but in the end, it boils down what your ears like.

I listened to ceramic, foil, oil etc and I ended up putting the Jensen/Angela in, only because it had the same sound as the 1940's NOS Solar cap I had and it fit better.

You can spend a ton of money on a fancy boutique cap, hermetically sealed and made in a secret lab deep in the Colorado mountains and end up going with a buck fifty orange drop from Radio Shack made by some kid in China.

I will say that the some of the caps that came with Fender pots sound pretty decent, but was too muddy for my taste and some had too much treble.

bossaholic

I honestly don't have any problem with someone liking one cap over another. I was only curious because Wayne mentioned measurable effects. I'm an EE, but tend more toward the digital side of things -- my analog isn't the strongest in the world, but I always want to learn a bit more. I just haven't seen any measureable effects that can explain this kind of thing.

Honestly, placebos often result in improvement in health, why couldn't knowing you changed the cap result in you playing differently or interpreting sound differently?

I'm not an engineer but I've read several articles about caps, there are lots of characteristics that can be measured other than capacitance - but that's not the point I'm making. I couldn't care less about trying to prove this to anyone or suggesting which test equipment to use to measure cap characteristics. My ears tell me that the sound of a guitar at different points of rotation of the tone pot is notably different when caps of equal tested capacitance but of different composition are used. There's only a very slight difference to my ears when the tone pot is all the way "up" (in the trebliest position), but the sonic character with caps of different materials/compositions is audibly different to me when the tone pot is in various positions other than all the way "up". Using a sensitive amp like an AC30 turned up loud in the semi-clean range seems to reveal the differences the most. To my ears, with the tone pot turned part way or all the way toward the bassiest position, ceramic caps sound hard and grainy, polypropylene caps (Orange Drops) sound sort of modern/cold/clinical, polyester caps (Mallory, Sozo) sound quite good and a little more organic/warm than the other two, and Paper in Oil (old Spragues, new Russian PIO, new Jensen PIO) sound the most "old," organic and "fat." These are my ears and my guitars and amps, but that's what I hear. These differences are not gigantic, but they're readily audible to me.

To my ears, with the tone pot turned part way or all the way toward the bassiest position, ceramic caps sound hard and grainy, polypropylene caps (Orange Drops) sound sort of modern/cold/clinical, polyester caps (Mallory, Sozo) sound quite good and a little more organic/warm than the other two, and Paper in Oil (old Spragues, new Russian PIO, new Jensen PIO) sound the most "old," organic and "fat." These are my ears and my guitars and amps, but that's what I hear. These differences are not gigantic, but they're readily audible to me.

Wayne, those are my exact conclusions too.

FYI,

it's worth noting that Orange Drops come in both polypropylene and polyester.

Wow Boss, you really got something going here! Reminds me of the time we told my buddy's grandpa that professional wrestling was fake!

:grin:

I'm only kidding, please, nobody send hate mail!

You must admit, the amount of feedback, from both points of view, that this post generated is surprising,,,

Wow Boss, you really got something going here! Reminds me of the time we told my buddy's grandpa that professional wrestling was fake!


:lol: No kidding!

I think it's important ONLY for one's own knowledge and understanding how things work and sound under the hood.

Aside from graphs and what caps are made of, I am a lot smarter about this than I was last week.

I'm not an engineer but I've read several articles about caps, there are lots of characteristics that can be measured other than capacitance - but that's not the point I'm making. I couldn't care less about trying to prove this to anyone or suggesting which test equipment to use to measure cap characteristics. My ears tell me that the sound of a guitar at different points of rotation of the tone pot is notably different when caps of equal tested capacitance but of different composition are used. There's only a very slight difference to my ears when the tone pot is all the way "up" (in the trebliest position), but the sonic character with caps of different materials/compositions is audibly different to me when the tone pot is in various positions other than all the way "up". Using a sensitive amp like an AC30 turned up loud in the semi-clean range seems to reveal the differences the most. To my ears, with the tone pot turned part way or all the way toward the bassiest position, ceramic caps sound hard and grainy, polypropylene caps (Orange Drops) sound sort of modern/cold/clinical, polyester caps (Mallory, Sozo) sound quite good and a little more organic/warm than the other two, and Paper in Oil (old Spragues, new Russian PIO, new Jensen PIO) sound the most "old," organic and "fat." These are my ears and my guitars and amps, but that's what I hear. These differences are not gigantic, but they're readily audible to me.

I agree with you there Wayne

So you are telling me that Wayne, tazzboy, and bossaholic have come to the exact same conclusion of:

To my ears, with the tone pot turned part way or all the way toward the bassiest position, ceramic caps sound hard and grainy, polypropylene caps (Orange Drops) sound sort of modern/cold/clinical, polyester caps (Mallory, Sozo) sound quite good and a little more organic/warm than the other two, and Paper in Oil (old Spragues, new Russian PIO, new Jensen PIO) sound the most "old," organic and "fat." These are my ears and my guitars and amps, but that's what I hear. These differences are not gigantic, but they're readily audible to me.


I find it fascinating that all of you have individually tested:


Ceramic caps
Polypropylene caps
Polyester caps (Mallory, Sozo)
Paper in Oil (old Spragues, new Russian PIO, new Jensen PIO)


...and are aligned with the same conclusions, using words like grainy and clinical??? What the heck does organic sound like? What is a cold sound? I represent old and fat, but I don't have a sound.

How about the capacitance added by the instrument cable? How about the capacitance of the input stage of the amplifier? Are they Russian? Are you aware the gain of the 1st stage in a tube amp varies the capacitance load with GAIN due to the Miller effect?

Does the tone stack in your tube amp use clinical caps? You better run out and buy some Russian caps for your tone controls in your amp. Better yet the caps in the mixer console.

How about your iPod or iPhone?
How about your stereo?
Those caps won't fit in those items.

There has been a lot of BS marketing that has led you to some false hopes for guitar capacitors.

Capacitors vary in capacitance. If you measure a Polypropylene that is 0.04700µF and a Paper in Oil that measures 0.04700µF and you claim a difference in sound, then let's talk.

Each capacitor you test will have a different capacitance. Your ears are very sensitive to the frequency of which the capacitor tunes the resonant frequency interaction of the pickup's inductance with the tone cap/line/amp capacitance. You are mislead into believing this change is due to the dielectric material. It's only the total capacitance that matters.

Very respectfully,
Terry

We're told that tone caps do not influence the sound of the guitar until the tone control is set below maximum...this has not been the case in my experience.
I recently replaced the 100V .022 orange drop in my Strat with a 400V ,022 orange drop and the sound, with the tone controls maxed out, was significantly brighter and thinner...there was absolutely no denying the difference it made.

What the heck does organic sound like? What is a cold sound? I represent old and fat, but I don't have a sound.

My take on the language:

Organic is slightly squishy or maybe rubber-bandy is a better image, you pluck your note and the uptake isn't instant but it comes up then overshoots a bit before settling down.

Cold is precise rendition of the note, it comes up fast, decays fast and hangs tight onto the note's amplitude. My jc55 amp is like this, great to run a pod into for just this reason.

Old and fat swells up then decays back down but doesn't exhibit the overshoot of an organic attack.

All can and will have the same tone once the note has settled in (assuming matched capacitance) but the envelope, even milliseconds short, would make all the difference.

I really like the frequency/response charts shown already (and especially the one site describing how pups react) but I'd like to see charts that cover frequency/phase-shift, slew rate and frequency/time-delay which would account for some of the touchy-feely that some people hear better than others before writing it all off as superstition.

All these other factors like cable capacitance and amp tone stacks and what-not don't matter as long as they remain constant while modifying the capacitor. Separate the variables, kind of how science works.

Sorry, it's late at night and I get mouthy when it's late at night :grin: But I love the pursuit of understanding systems and the minutiae of how they work.

I wish I could be more scientific with my testing but I hear what I hear. I also see colors when I hear music.

I remember having my hearing tested in the Army and was told I hear some frequencies others can't. fwiw.

So in the end, what sounds good to me might sound like crap to someone else! Isn't that what matters? What sounds good to you??

For those of you who insist on denying that anything but capacitance has any effect in guitar tone circuits, I suggest you do what I've done. Use a good meter (I've got a Fluke 187) to match the capacitance of a few different types of caps, then attach some alligator clips to both ends of where the tone cap goes and, leaving everything else the same (amp settings, cable, etc), swap out caps of different types, and play, rotating the tone and volume pots into various positions. I would be surprised if you can't hear and feel differences in the sound and response of the guitar between different types of caps with the same measured capacitance. I certainly can. I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone, I'm just trying to get people to try this and decide for themselves what they like.

I would be surprised if you can't hear and feel differences in the sound and response of the guitar between different types of caps with the same measured capacitance.

Where do you feel the differences? :lol:

I have tried this experiment when I had access to bags and bags of ceramic caps (I miss the university parts counter) and honestly didn't hear anything. I've asked other people and they haven't heard anything either (although that's not a definitive experiment because I may have influenced their response by the way I asked the question). I only tried an orange drop cap (0.047u) and matched a ceramic to it...my real reasoning was the orange drop was so damn big and I didn't want to modify the routes on the guitar.

would someone please call the mythbusters?

would someone please call the mythbusters?

All kidding aside, I know Adam. This might be something interesting for them as a side segment on one of their shows.

I'll fire off an email to him!

I've done the tone cap test a bunch of times. All it did for me was help me decide what "ballpark" value I like. I guess that's the most important part, finding what you like.:grin:

Thus the diagram illustrates why a tone "wah" effect works as well, while remaining in the frequency domain. Nice, Terry!

Given a typical tele single coil p/up what's a good pot & cap value to maximize the tone wah effect? I imagine a .47 would be give a more pronounced wah effect right? Would a no load or a 1meg pot with a .47 cap be the most wahtacular? I had a .22 in my old tele and could not get a great tone wah out of it.

-kp

I recently replaced the 100V .022 orange drop in my Strat with a 400V ,022 orange drop and the sound, with the tone controls maxed out, was significantly brighter and thinner...there was absolutely no denying the difference it made.

I'll deny it for you.:twisted:

No, seriously, snarkiness aside - read the little tone control schematic:

http://files.me.com/bradpdx/tbm6xo

The ONLY way to increase the treble with the tone pot up is to have components in the diagram that do not exist. Repeat: do not exist.

Here's a very important bit I'd like to relay: if components really had these subtle differences that cannot be described with schematics and associated calculations, then the design and engineering of electronics would be impossible. It would mean that we really didn't understand what these components are or do, and that our efforts to build things were shots in the dark. It would mean that we wouldn't know how to solve problems or improve designs because we didn't really know what was happening. Every design would be expensive and messy trial and error.

But that is not the case. Millions upon millions of circuit designs work exactly as the schematics and calculations say they will. Tests devised and refined over decades prove this over and over, and if it were not true I would certainly not have a computer upon which to type this message.

You could replace the tone cap with a piece of wire, a 10K resistor, or a light bulb. You could make the cap 5 times bigger or 5 times smaller, but there is no affect upon the load at treble audio frequencies (e.g. 3 to 8kHz). None. Do the math, it's real.

The only way to increase treble with a regular tone pot is to make it a "no load" setup or use a capacitor so small that it effectively lifted the tone pot out of circuit at audio frequencies - but that would require a tiny cap (.0002mfd or 1% of the stated value) and render the tone control useless. That would hardly be a subtle change to the guitar's behavior.

Every so often after I pay attention to my car and clean it up, give it thorough wash and wax, vacuum and clean the windows - it feels like it runs better. I'm happier about my car. But really, I know that can't be the case and it's just me feeling good.

This shows just a small test of different tone caps, there is a difference but so small that I and probably most would not hear it.

http://www.skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/CapTest/CapTest.htm

I'll deny it for you.:twisted:

No, seriously, snarkiness aside - read the little tone control schematic:

http://files.me.com/bradpdx/tbm6xo

The ONLY way to increase the treble with the tone pot up is to have components in the diagram that do not exist. Repeat: do not exist.

Here's a very important bit I'd like to relay: if components really had these subtle differences that cannot be described with schematics and associated calculations, then the design and engineering of electronics would be impossible. It would mean that we really didn't understand what these components are or do, and that our efforts to build things were shots in the dark. It would mean that we wouldn't know how to solve problems or improve designs because we didn't really know what was happening. Every design would be expensive and messy trial and error.

But that is not the case. Millions upon millions of circuit designs work exactly as the schematics and calculations say they will. Tests devised and refined over decades prove this over and over, and if it were not true I would certainly not have a computer upon which to type this message.

You could replace the tone cap with a piece of wire, a 10K resistor, or a light bulb. You could make the cap 5 times bigger or 5 times smaller, but there is no affect upon the load at treble audio frequencies (e.g. 3 to 8kHz). None. Do the math, it's real.

The only way to increase treble with a regular tone pot is to make it a "no load" setup or use a capacitor so small that it effectively lifted the tone pot out of circuit at audio frequencies - but that would require a tiny cap (.0002mfd or 1% of the stated value) and render the tone control useless. That would hardly be a subtle change to the guitar's behavior.

Every so often after I pay attention to my car and clean it up, give it thorough wash and wax, vacuum and clean the windows - it feels like it runs better. I'm happier about my car. But really, I know that can't be the case and it's just me feeling good.

I didn't say that the 400V increased treble, I said the guitar sounded brighter, maybe the 100V attenuates a different frequency range...can there really be absolute zero capacitance with the variable resistor minimized as in tone pot maxed, or even absolute zero resistance with same?

A simple test of continuity with a DVM will tell you where and when the cap starts to take effect on the pot. Say we're talking about about standard tele wiring (This is my 50's mod diagram, but it'll do for now):
http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/71ad16ad2c4d81f348082ff6c4b20768/2344_p39557.jpg

At full CW, there is no continuity between the top outside lug and the center lug. You only get continuity when the pot is almost at full CCW. Up until then, the DC resistance of the pot is what is attenuating the "tone".

So... if you hear a difference in the sound with the tone pot at full CW, you're hearing things that cannot possibly be there, because there is no electrical continuity between the outside and center lug. It's a matter of physics: it's just not connected.

And voltage ratings have no relation to the cap's capacitance. 400v or 100v, if the measured capacitance (not what the cap is marked as) is the same, they'll sound the same.

Like Terry said:

* If you use the tone controls near their max CCW positions, experiment with the capacitor value.
* If you use the tone controls near their max CW positions, experiment with pot values and no-load options.

I didn't say that the 400V increased treble, I said the guitar sounded brighter, maybe the 100V attenuates a different frequency range...can there really be absolute zero capacitance with the variable resistor minimized as in tone pot maxed, or even absolute zero resistance with same?

All you changed was the voltage rating of the cap, which has no effect upon it behavior as a capacitor. It only changes the maximum DC voltage that it can withstand across itself before the insulation risks breakdown. Because the DC voltages in a guitar are by definition zero, you could have used a cap rated at 10V, 50V, 100V or 1000V - it makes no difference in this application as they are all greater than zero.

This is the reason why the tone caps in our old Fender amps are rated for about 400V - they actually do have large DC voltages across them!

Is there a possibility that the 2 caps have slightly different values? Sure, give or take 10%. But that wouldn't make your guitar brighter.

I associate "sounding brighter" with "increased treble". Any attenuation of high frequencies is due to the load of the tone pot in series with the cap - and at audible frequencies, that means that with the pot full up, the load is 99% the resistance of the pot. Let me prove that.

Let's pick a typical treble frequency to illustrate what I mean. According to the graph provided earlier, a typical Strat pickup resonates at around 3.5kHz, above which the output drops rapidly (-12dB/octave). So let's choose 3.5kHz as that is the most critical band.

The magnitude of the impedance provided by a capacitor is defined as:

1/(2*pi*frequency*capacitance)

Don't forget that this cap is rated in microfarads (mfd) or one millionth of a Farad, and so we factor that in.

So a .022mfd cap @ 3.5kHz is

1/(2*pi*3500*.022*10e-6) = 2.07KOhms

or 0.8% of the nominal value of the tone pot (250KOhms). In other words, when the pot is full up the capacitor is virtually not there - the path to ground is totally dominated by the tone pot. The difference between having the cap there and shorting it out completely is a tiny fraction of a decibel, and that is simply not audible (a decibel is defined empirically as the smallest change in level that a human can detect).

For this reason, changing the value of the cap by factors of 2 or 3 simply has no effect. Smaller changes like 10% are even less detectable. Hence the blanket statement: changing the tone cap value has no effect upon the response of the pickup with the tone control full up.

You asked about other residual effects such as capacitance in the pot or residual resistance - and yes, those exist. But the magnitude is so tiny that it simply doesn't figure in here. Instead of microfarads of capacitance, you are talking about single digits of picofarads (trillionths of a Farad!) that mean nothing at these frequencies. That's getting into microwave territory in most cases!

This shows just a small test of different tone caps, there is a difference but so small that I and probably most would not hear it.

http://www.skguitar.com/SKGS/sk/CapTest/CapTest.htm

That is utter BS. None of it makes rational sense. It looks like a spectrum graph, but he doesn't describe anything related to the test. What is the signal source? There is a low frequency scoop in the graph that further tells me it is bogus.

So, what's everyone favorite wine? :wink:

I like my wines to be .047 percent cabernet.

Heh. I use .1's on Teles and .047's on Strats. My LP has .015's.

Bottom line is if it sounds good to you, then it's good. For you.:grin:

Here's some good stuff on how we hear things: Psychoacoustics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics).

....... In other words, when the pot is full up the capacitor is virtually not there - the path to ground is totally dominated by the tone pot. ......

Thanks for the technically accurate post. A while back I calculated and graphed the complex addition of impedance of the tone cap and the pot in series. You can see there is no significant frequency sensitivity until the pot is on about 2. This was what Fezz was pointing out.

Click on the bar to see full size
http://terrydownsmusic.com/Archive/tone_network_impedance_250K.jpg

You can actually short out the tone cap and the tone control will work pretty good until you get near max CCW.

The inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the pickup's interwindings/cable/amp form a parallel resonant circuit. That resonance is generally in the treble region. Placing a load resistor across this network damps it (look up damping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping), it has nothing to do with moisture), hence reducing treble. It is not until the reactance of the cap is a significant part of the total impedance of the pot and cap in series that the tone cap takes the resonance back over at a lower frequency.

My take on the language:

Organic is slightly squishy or maybe rubber-bandy is a better image, you pluck your note and the uptake isn't instant but it comes up then overshoots a bit before settling down.

Cold is precise rendition of the note, it comes up fast, decays fast and hangs tight onto the note's amplitude. My jc55 amp is like this, great to run a pod into for just this reason.

Old and fat swells up then decays back down but doesn't exhibit the overshoot of an organic attack.

All can and will have the same tone once the note has settled in (assuming matched capacitance) but the envelope, even milliseconds short, would make all the difference.

....

With these words you are saying the tone cap affects the pluck dynamics. Or do you think a capacitor has a Rube Goldberg compressor inside it?

All you changed was the voltage rating of the cap, which has no effect upon it behavior as a capacitor. It only changes the maximum DC voltage that it can withstand across itself before the insulation risks breakdown. Because the DC voltages in a guitar are by definition zero, you could have used a cap rated at 10V, 50V, 100V or 1000V - it makes no difference in this application as they are all greater than zero.

This is the reason why the tone caps in our old Fender amps are rated for about 400V - they actually do have large DC voltages across them!

Is there a possibility that the 2 caps have slightly different values? Sure, give or take 10%. But that wouldn't make your guitar brighter.

I associate "sounding brighter" with "increased treble". Any attenuation of high frequencies is due to the load of the tone pot in series with the cap - and at audible frequencies, that means that with the pot full up, the load is 99% the resistance of the pot. Let me prove that.

Let's pick a typical treble frequency to illustrate what I mean. According to the graph provided earlier, a typical Strat pickup resonates at around 3.5kHz, above which the output drops rapidly (-12dB/octave). So let's choose 3.5kHz as that is the most critical band.

The magnitude of the impedance provided by a capacitor is defined as:

1/(2*pi*frequency*capacitance)

Don't forget that this cap is rated in microfarads (mfd) or one millionth of a Farad, and so we factor that in.

So a .022mfd cap @ 3.5kHz is

1/(2*pi*3500*.022*10e-6) = 2.07KOhms

or 0.8% of the nominal value of the tone pot (250KOhms). In other words, when the pot is full up the capacitor is virtually not there - the path to ground is totally dominated by the tone pot. The difference between having the cap there and shorting it out completely is a tiny fraction of a decibel, and that is simply not audible (a decibel is defined empirically as the smallest change in level that a human can detect).

For this reason, changing the value of the cap by factors of 2 or 3 simply has no effect. Smaller changes like 10% are even less detectable. Hence the blanket statement: changing the tone cap value has no effect upon the response of the pickup with the tone control full up.

You asked about other residual effects such as capacitance in the pot or residual resistance - and yes, those exist. But the magnitude is so tiny that it simply doesn't figure in here. Instead of microfarads of capacitance, you are talking about single digits of picofarads (trillionths of a Farad!) that mean nothing at these frequencies. That's getting into microwave territory in most cases!

You can throw figures at me all day, but I maintain that there was a perceivably brighter tone after the cap swap. I can't definitively account for why that happened, I'm more player than modder and as such use and trust my ears to cover all the variables in my quest for good tone, rather than circuit data. If I like it, it stays, if not it gets binned.

Well, now that we got that all straightened out, I wonder if we could get Bossaholic to measure the capacitance of the pieces he tested...would make a nice coda for this thread.

Bradpdx, I took 6.01 in the fall of '69, but it's all rusty now. Thanks for taking the point position on this one.

I have a better coda for this thread. It's called a three step recovery system for Vintage Capacitor Illusion Disease (VCID).


Don't believe everything you read on the internet (especially if they are trying to sell you something).
Change your strings often.
Spend your time practicing guitar as opposed to trying old caps in your tone circuit. People will never know or care if you have a paper-in-oil cap in your guitar if you are playing really good.

I have a better coda for this thread. It's called a three step recovery system for Vintage Capacitor Illusion Disease (VCID).


Don't believe everything you read on the internet (especially if they are trying to sell you something).
Change your strings often.
Spend your time practicing guitar as opposed to trying old caps in your tone circuit. People will never know or care if you have a paper-in-oil cap in your guitar if you are playing really good.


So you're telling my my Mallory caps weren't worth it? JKJK they were the same price as the Orange drops, and I like they way the look and fit in my guitar.

I'm going to agree with the "it's in your head market." One of the cheapest ways to make you think your better!! :lol::wink:

I have a better coda for this thread. It's called a three step recovery system for Vintage Capacitor Illusion Disease (VCID).


Don't believe everything you read on the internet (especially if they are trying to sell you something).
Change your strings often.

or better yet:

3. Spend your time practicing guitar as opposed making graphs of trajectories of tone. People will never know or care if you have a graph made of why a capacitor does what it does if you are playing really good. :wink:

Well, at least this thread started out fun.

Guys care to talk about pickups or do we need graphs? :neutral:

(just funnin with ya Terry. I actually learned a lot from what you had to say, but in the end, I still trust my ears).

or better yet:

3. Spend your time practicing guitar as opposed making graphs of trajectories of tone. People will never know or care if you have a graph made of why a capacitor does what it does if you are playing really good. :wink:

,,,.

OK. I guess I deserve that. The best part of this post is the mutual respect that everyone has offered. Thanks to all of you for that. :smile:

I have no dog in this hunt, except that I despise rouge suppliers of products that cause good intentioned players to pay big prices for a silly capacitor that has no function other than killing treble.

I would like to see a bit of respect to those of us that have engineering degrees and decades of engineering experience with regard to this topic. I'm only here to help. I have no hidden agendas.

This certainly was an interesting thread. All this enthusiastic energy discussing/debating how the type of capacitor you install in your guitar does or does not impact the tone of the guitar.

Can you imagine how much more heated the discussion would be if we were discussing replacing the caps in your favorite tube amp? Some would argue that if you replaced all caps with the exact same value, there should be no measurable difference in tone - no matter what type of material the caps are made of. :shock: All the boutique amp builders would certainly want to chime in on that one. :wink:

So, what's everyone favorite wine? :wink:

whichever box is on sale...:lol:

Can you imagine how much more heated the discussion would be if we were discussing replacing the caps in your favorite tube amp? Some would argue that if you replaced all caps with the exact same value, there should be no measurable difference in tone - no matter what type of material the caps are made of. :shock: All the boutique amp builders would certainly want to chime in on that one. :wink:

Apples and Oranges.:mrgreen:

I think this thread was fun and informative. In the end it's all about what makes you happy with your sound! I just like to know how and why things work. I think other folks would want to know how and why too.
And trust me, I've spent a lot of time playing and practicing over the last 45 years. I'll do it until I'm dead.:grin:

I recently replaced the 100V .022 orange drop in my Strat with a 400V ,022 orange drop and the sound, with the tone controls maxed out, was significantly brighter and thinner...there was absolutely no denying the difference it made.

It's likely that the 100V caps are polyester, the 400V are polypropylene.

FWIW, from my experience, I agree that the polypropylene have more presence. That might be good or bad, depending on the application, but I know that some people prefer one kind, and others prefer the other kind.

Also, if you see my earlier quote from Ken Fischer, he said, "Since pickups put out very low voltage, the voltage rating should not matter, but it does seem to have an affect."

For those who've bought prewired assemblies from Callaham, they are probably 400V polypropylene caps.

I have no dog in this hunt, except that I despise rouge suppliers of products that cause good intentioned players to pay big prices for a silly capacitor that has no function other than killing treble.


I am almost beginning to take this approach when it comes to pickups.

I just put GFS Fatbody's in my Springsteen clone and they really scream and sound great and they're only 30 bucks each. My only experience with pickups are with Seymour Duncans, which are double that price and to "my ears" (ducks for cover) don't really sound any different than the GFS's. I plugged her into to digital effects box and put on the Springsteen MTV Plugged and basically got the same soun (Bruce uses custom Petillo's at about $200 each).

I looked at other's that were in the $150 range and you can almost get sucked into the hype of "Handwound" and "Handwound" or "Handspun" but seriously, how many different ways can you wind a pickup?

how many different ways can you wind a pickup?

When they're machine wound, there's only one way. The way the machine does it. When they're handwound, it's as individual as the person doing it.:grin:

Even machines have hiccups from feed variances and maintenance cycles :mrgreen:

You can throw figures at me all day, but I maintain that there was a perceivably brighter tone after the cap swap. I can't definitively account for why that happened, I'm more player than modder and as such use and trust my ears to cover all the variables in my quest for good tone, rather than circuit data. If I like it, it stays, if not it gets binned.

Then it's just magic. Like I said, if capacitors really have these qualities, then engineering means nothing and we can't really design anything. It's really an important point, IMHO.

redstringguitar, I believe that you believe this, but I just don't.

This basically boils down to difference between right brained and left brained people.

This basically boils down to difference between right brained and left brained people.

Which, of course, cognitive science now tells us is a totally bogus dichotomy.

This basically boils down to: placebo effect.

:mrgreen:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_c5jlPNZfDcA/S1wLp08aysI/AAAAAAAAAPk/PhWneCPBYJg/s640/P1010500.JPG

I did not read this entire thread, but am certainly aware of the raging debate over tone caps. I put the lil orange guy above in my CV Tele this evening. Picked it up "on a whim" at my local electronics shop for $1.30. I think this one is used more in amps than in guitar circuits. Its .04, whereas the stock burgungy film cap is .033. I did a simple before-and-after test; played it stock first to accustom my ears, put in the cap, replayed it, same settings. My inital impression: sounded fuller, brighter, and maybe even louder. I read a larger cap would make it darker, but that was just the opposite. Seemed the tone knob had a larger range - lower lows and higher highs. I then did 50's wiring, and that definitely had an effect, preserving the treble when rolling off the volume. I feel I have improved my guitar. Not majorly, but subtle; the fundamental tone is still there. I'll probably keep it like this for a while. I wanted to try this 1st before springing for more expensive PIO caps. Just wanted to share my findings! :razz:

Then it's just magic. Like I said, if capacitors really have these qualities, then engineering means nothing and we can't really design anything. It's really an important point, IMHO.

redstringguitar, I believe that you believe this, but I just don't.

That's fine, we can agree to disagree, but to infer that I am attempting to discredit engineering and design is frankly ridiculous. The guitar still functioned as it should, with the pickups and controls obeying the laws of the circuit, as it were, but the overall voicing had changed and I put it to you that when it comes to dealing with such small signal values, even seemingly insignificant changes can alter the chain and ultimately the voicing that goes through to the amp...there are just too many variables to be accounted for using graphs and equations.

As for the comment by another poster about placebo effect, all I can say is you weren't there, so speak for your own ears, not mine.

If there is a genuine, pervasive, well-documented and nearly universally accepted expectancy effect in medicine where the experience is often less than subtle (think: placebo analgesia) then why can't there be one for something as miniscule as this absurdo tone cap corksniffery? It is my guess about what you experienced. You may not like it. But I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions even if they are thoughts and opinions about your thoughts and opinions. I did the alligator clip tone cap thingy. I measured the tone caps with a meter and swapped them one by one. I only had a couple, but I could hear 0 difference. Hey maybe i am wrong but so far my ears and Terry's science tells me. Additionally my experience on the innerwebs tells me that when folks start flinging around vague idiosyncratically used adverbs and adjectives, like "smokey", "open sounding" blah blah then it is time to break out my BS meter.

YM done V.

If there is a genuine, pervasive, well-documented and nearly universally accepted expectancy effect in medicine where the experience is often less than subtle (think: placebo analgesia) then why can't there be one for something as miniscule as this absurdo tone cap corksniffery? It is my guess about what you experienced. You may not like it. But I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions even if they are thoughts and opinions about your thoughts and opinions. I did the alligator clip tone cap thingy. I measured the tone caps with a meter and swapped them one by one. I only had a couple, but I could hear 0 difference. Hey maybe i am wrong but so far my ears and Terry's science tells me. Additionally my experience on the innerwebs tells me that when folks start flinging around vague idiosyncratically used adverbs and adjectives, like "smokey", "open sounding" blah blah then it is time to break out my BS meter.

YM done V.

A word of advice, stay out of courts, they'll eat you for breakfast. :mrgreen:

A word of advice, stay out of courts, they'll eat you for breakfast. :mrgreen:

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/golden_flounce.jpg

I came for a heated discussion, and I got it!

Will be hooking up my alligator clips tonight...

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/golden_flounce.jpg

There's no need to overreact kp8, I don't know if you remember, but you were the first member that I had a discussion with on here...about Lester neck tenons and that was a pretty good thread, certainly taught me a thing or two.

You couldn't really expect me to react positively to being advised not to trust my own ears, surely?

There's no need to overreact kp8

uhm... that was a joke.

You couldn't really expect me to react positively to being advised not to trust my own ears, surely?

Why not? Honestly? Was the difference really that pronounced that you are absolutely 100% sure? I do a bunch of mastering and archiving and you know, sometimes I am aware of things later that I did not initially hear. Snarkiness and joking aside is it at least possible that what you experienced is attributable to something else real or imagined? Besides cognitive psychology tells us again and again that we don't see what we think we see and we don't always hear what we think we hear. Doesn't the rather compelling evidence put forth (by some pretty smart folks) here place any doubt in your mind? If not, then rock on, what can I say. Certainly not worth getting into a rumble over. But I do think that those of us who are non-believers are actually right to raise questions, otherwise myths just get perpetuated over and over without being examined. At least both sides of the story got out.

Anyway. If you are offended I apologize. Perhaps I was too flippant.

cheers,

kevin

uhm... that was a joke.



Why not? Honestly? Was the difference really that pronounced that you are absolutely 100% sure? I do a bunch of mastering and archiving and you know, sometimes I am aware of things later that I did not initially hear. Snarkiness and joking aside is it at least possible that what you experienced is attributable to something else real or imagined? Besides cognitive psychology tells us again and again that we don't see what we think we see and we don't always hear what we think we hear. Doesn't the rather compelling evidence put forth (by some pretty smart folks) here place any doubt in your mind? If not, then rock on, what can I say. Certainly not worth getting into a rumble over. But I do think that those of us who are non-believers are actually right to raise questions, otherwise myths just get perpetuated over and over without being examined. At least both sides of the story got out.

Anyway. If you are offended I apologize. Perhaps I was too flippant.

cheers,

kevin

Nah, you didn't offend me, glad I didn't offend you after all.

I'm not given to making wild, ridiculous claims and asked myself the same questions you and others have asked, regarding the difference I heard, before posting on the subject...my surprise at the difference was the reason for posting about it.

No worries anyway, I think this is one of those "you had to be there to believe it" incidents.

cheers,

Paul.

man what a read...so the conclusion is...fish gotta swim...birds gotta fly?

I have a better coda for this thread. It's called a three step recovery system for Vintage Capacitor Illusion Disease (VCID).


Don't believe everything you read on the internet (especially if they are trying to sell you something).
Change your strings often.
Spend your time practicing guitar as opposed to trying old caps in your tone circuit. People will never know or care if you have a paper-in-oil cap in your guitar if you are playing really good.


nuff said

That's the key in my opinion. These adjustments are probably only valuable to those who actually adjust their tone knobs

You mean that teles actually HAVE tone knobs???:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Just a quick suggestion for everyone wanting to do the "alligator clip test".

Don't use alligator clips - use a switch. It's not really any harder to do, and if there indeed were any changes in tone, you really need to be able to hear them in real time.

Assuming you are the one who will be doing the listening comparison, have someone other than yourself wire the caps up to the switch. Make sure you can't see the switch, and don't know which cap is in which position.

All it takes is a friend who knows how to solder and is willing to offer their help, and will stand at least some chance of giving you some fairly honest results. If you have to stop playing to switch caps, and if you know which cap you are playing at any given point, then the results will be neither ideal nor objective.

If you go in to a nice restaurant for a nice steak, with nice music and nice lighting, it will taste great. If they had lighting that made the steak look green and annoying sounds and music, that exact same steak will not taste nearly as good. The only way to tell if the change in taste was actually caused by some bizarre chemical reaction to bad lighting and sound, or simply your perception of the taste changed with the environment, is to wear headphones and a blindfold and try it in both environments.

No different here, and it's foolish to think that our sense of hearing is not affected by predisposition just as much as our other senses. The reason I want to do the tests in other discussions I linked to above is because I haven't heard of anyone who has conducted and suitably documented such a test. Most of the claims of distinct tonal changes from different cap types I've heard have come from people who have eaten one steak in a four-star restaurant, then had another in a greazy diner with karaoke and strobe lights. The result is almost inevitable that they find one tasted notably better than another, and it is claimed as indisputable fact that one chef must be magnificent, and the other a lazy fry cook. A statement like "I've tried both steaks, and if you can't taste the difference, you're taste buds must be dead" doesn't quite satisfy me here.

If you really want to know which chef is better, have them cook the same steaks, in the same restaurant, and eat them at the same table without any knowledge of which steak came from which chef. It's that simple.

A friend with a soldering iron + a switch that you can't see = simple, crude, but at least somewhat improved means of comparison. It's not that hard, and if you truly want to know how different caps may or may not sound different, it's worth trying.

Wow, after reading this thread, I have come to one conclusion... I need to make some serious changes in my life as I just do not have enough free time.

Seriously though, I would really love to play with different capacitance values to see what really floats my boat. For now I pick the best looking capacitor with the correct value that isn't crazy expensive. For me, things like amp, speaker, recording equipment all have a bigger effect on the sound I am after. It seems like the differences discussed here could be fixed with a slight turn of a knob anywhere along the path, but like I said I haven't done the tests myself. With an new baby due any day now I think it will be about 18 years before I get any of that free time ;-).

It seems like the differences discussed here could be fixed with a slight turn of a knob anywhere along the path

Word.

New strings. A different pick, an EQ change, swap a tube or a pedal or any number of things would make bigger difference in my sound. As would and extra hour of playing.

Trying to get used to this new B-bender and it cant seem to get my picking hand set right these days no matter how long i sit with this guitar.

I posted this in the other tone cap thread so I thought I'd duplicate it here:

There is an assumption that those of us who are in the "it doesn't matter" camp are just sitting around with test equipment making clinical analyses without using our ears as well. You know what happens when you assume.:grin:
I've used both. I only hear a quantifiable difference when I use caps of a different value, not construction type or the voltage rating of a cap.

The fact that Don uses ceramics speaks volumes about this. It's the first one that's usually at the bottom of the list of the "cap makes a difference" crowd.

It all depends on what makes you happy. If a 10 dollar cap does that, then right on.

I saw Robben Ford and Micheal Landau a couple of weeks ago. Robben was playing through a Dumble and a SR, Landau was playing through a Hot Rod Deville. When I was looking at them play, I made the assumption that Robben's tone was better because of what I was seeing. But you know what? When I went to the bar, they both sounded great. Couldn't see the amps anymore. Weird huh?

my pickup
















always seems to run better after an oil change.........:wink::mrgreen::twisted:

There is an assumption that those of us who are in the "it doesn't matter" camp are just sitting around with test equipment making clinical analyses without using our ears as well. You know what happens when you assume.:grin:
I've used both. I only hear a quantifiable difference when I use caps of a different value, not construction type or the voltage rating of a cap.


Just to be clear to those reading my posts, I'm with Fezz on this one. I am an engineer and I don't a priori believe arguments about tone cap changes that don't make sense to my engineering brain. At a minimum I remain skeptical - I'm human and I miss things, but this particular subject is pretty simple compared with many.

That said, I ALWAYS listen closely to be sure - my conclusions are not just paper-based. And by golly, they almost always line up.

This basically boils down to: placebo effect.

:mrgreen:

I guess it applies to Pickups too?

Is there a difference between the $32.00 GFS 10K's and the $80.00 Seymour Duncan's of the same output??

Does the name make the SD sound better?

I guess it applies to Pickups too?

I don't think it follows from the cap analogy. P/ups are a totally different deal all together. First of all they are transducers and as translators of energy (like speakers) are a pretty critical part of the signal chain.

Is there a difference between the $32.00 GFS 10K's and the $80.00 Seymour Duncan's of the same output??

Of course there is. Though it is entirely possible that the GFS will be "better" depending on what you like and what your rig is.

Does the name make the SD sound better?

Maybe ...

-kp

(though for the record I have liked most of the Duncan aftermarket p/ups i have owned)

I don't think it follows from the cap analogy. P/ups are a totally different deal all together. First of all they are transducers and as translators of energy (like speakers) are a pretty critical part of the signal chain.

But the same argument can be made. A pickup consist of the same ingredients. Copper wire and magnets (commonly Alnico).

I just installed GFS pickups rated 10K after using SD Quarter Pounds (rated 10K) for the last 20 years, and I hear little difference between the two brands that would justify a $50.00 difference.

But the same argument can be made. A pickup consist of the same ingredients. Copper wire and magnets (commonly Alnico).


Would you say that all cars are the same, they have 4 wheels and a motor? Are all microphones the same?

There are many types of mags, Alico 2, 3, 4, Alnico 82 whatevah, ceramic mags, Samarium-cobalt magnets, CuNiFe (Copper/Nickel/Iron) rod magnets, different strengths of mags, some p/ups have a pole pieces that are magnetic, some have a bar at the bottom, pickups use different gauges of wire and different numbers of wounds. Some are machine guided hand wound and some are just spun on a machine... lots of variables.


I just installed GFS pickups rated 10K after using SD Quarter Pounds (rated 10K) for the last 20 years, and I hear little difference between the two brands that would justify a $50.00 difference.


I don't doubt that. I am a fan of cheap p/ups myself and there is prolly a lot less magic to it than the p/pup manufacturers want to admit. But, that said there is more to p/ups than how hot they are wound. Sure, at the core it is a coil. A mag w/ some wire around it.. but there are lots of ways one can do that.

I haven't tried the GFS, but they have a p/up or two I really would like to try if i get back to the states. I am sure those, the toneriders, keystones and many other cheaper p/ups work well.

I have to side with the engineers ... (since I'm one too ... but digital) :mrgreen:

However, having said the above, real world is not perfect and not all thing comes out the same. Every guitar is different ... your pickup/wiring impedance and inductance will vary, so just maybe one guitar may want .22 where another guitar may want .30 for your ears to be happy. Sometimes things are not worth measuring, so just swap the cap until you're happy ... but I would start out with the cheap cap 1st. The way I see it ... every $ I save is every $ I'm closer to getting another guitar :razz:

Just a side note: I'm sure one of my favorite guitarist, Peter Green, did not mess around with cap value ... he used his fingers to get the tone. In fact, his out-of-phase tone was accidental ... but he made it sound great! Since I'm a beginner and still suck at playing guitar, I'm going to practice more and hope that some day some kid will want my tone :)

But the same argument can be made. A pickup consist of the same ingredients.

Not all ingredients are the same. Coil shape, number of windings, magnet type, size and type of wire, winding pattern, magnet spacing and height, magnet strength, covered or uncovered, baseplate or no baseplate, polarity (like the way bar magnets are arranged on a P90 repell each other), potting, and a host of other things. Scatterwinding reduces the skin effect, increases the distributed capacitance across the coil, and decreases self inductance across the coil.

Look guys, if it doesn't have a TUBE, even the best caps and resistors won't be enough! :wink:

I believe the brand name might be "snakeoil" or "hooey"... something like that.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/telecaster-discussion-forum/38181d1262739807-tube-tone-control-plate-tubetone3-jpg

This debate is done to death.

I do hear a difference in my tone when using different caps that are the same value. It's subtle, but it's there. The Fender ceramic disks are a little trebly and brighter, the Orange Drops are a little darker or smoother, the Fender poly caps are softer along the lines of the Orange drop.

I think the reason for this, is that although these caps are the same values, I think some caps are closer to the reported value, some aren't. I know it sounds nuts, but I have done the alligator clip test with several stock caps I have laying around. It's there.

Would I personally spend a bunch of money on a cap? nah it's not that drastic to my ears, and I'm a cheapster..but if someone else can hear 50 bucks out of their cap, more power to em =)

I think the reason for this, is that although these caps are the same values, I think some caps are closer to the reported value, some aren't.

This isn't nuts. It's called tolerance. The only way to REALLY do this test is to take two caps, measure them with a meter and find two that are exactly the same on the meter. The markings on the side literally mean dick. These things can be way off (new caps can be up to +/- 20% of the marked values -- old caps can be even further than that, due to decay of the dielectric material inside the cap).

As an aside, and no offense to anyone at all, but I'm totally surprised that more people don't understand that these devices have a tolerance.

"Reverence for all things old -- if it is old, it MUST be better...which seems to apply for everything except for women and televisions."


That's gold man...gold

=)

I generally avoid these threads anymore because there's no rational discussion when someone has bought into something with such conviction....but this ought to be carved on a stone tablet somewhere:

I have a better coda for this thread. It's called a three step recovery system for Vintage Capacitor Illusion Disease (VCID).


Don't believe everything you read on the internet (especially if they are trying to sell you something).
Change your strings often.
Spend your time practicing guitar as opposed to trying old caps in your tone circuit. People will never know or care if you have a paper-in-oil cap in your guitar if you are playing really good.


Thanks, Terry for your contributions.

This isn't nuts. It's called tolerance. The only way to REALLY do this test is to take two caps, measure them with a meter and find two that are exactly the same on the meter. The markings on the side literally mean dick. These things can be way off (new caps can be up to +/- 20% of the marked values -- old caps can be even further than that, due to decay of the dielectric material inside the cap).

As an aside, and no offense to anyone at all, but I'm totally surprised that more people don't understand that these devices have a tolerance.


You are so correct. But let me take it further.

The problem with ceramics is most modern day Fenders have the dreaded 503Z (0.05µF), which has a tolerance of +80/-20%.

http://terrydownsmusic.com/Archive/CeramicDisk503Z.jpg

This means the 503Z cap marked as 0.05µF (503) can be as high as 0.09µF because of the +80% tolerance. If you replace that with any other cap that is close to 0.05µF, it sounds totally different. The user blames ceramic technology for the difference, when it is really capacitance value that matters only.

.................
Thanks, Terry for your contributions.

Thank you for your contributions.

If you always play with the tone wide open then does the cap still make a difference?

This means the 503Z cap marked as 0.05µF (503) can be as high as 0.09µF because of the +80% tolerance. If you replace that with any other cap that is close to 0.05µF, it sounds totally different. The user blames ceramic technology for the difference, when it is really capacitance value that matters only.

I'll go one further, in fact, and correct me if I am incorrect (this is just how things are done in the digital world [aka, my home]). The parts that are marked +80%/-20% are really almost all somewhere around +80%/-20% with almost nothing that is actually toward the ideal measurement indicated on the part. Once the parts are manufactured, they are separated based on how close they are to the intended measurements. Those that are really close are sold with a low tolerance value; those that are really far off are sold with a high tolerance value.

This is definitely done in the microprocessor industry ALL the time. When dual core processors were first coming out (and now this is done with quad-core parts as well) if one side of the die had a serious defect, they would just fuse that core off and sell it as a single-core. When you see the same processor sold at a different frequency, that is just because some of the dies produced could hit that frequency, some couldn't, so they fuse the clock portion of the part to match the frequency it can hit.

In both cases, this would just be a way to maximize yield while getting the most profits out of each individual component.

Basically always meter your caps so you know what you're getting.

"If you always play with the tone wide open then does the cap still make a difference?"

Unless you have a no-load pot or circuit the tone controll is technically always affecting tone, even at 10. Larger caps will roll off a hair more treble when the tone is at 10 than a smaller cap, but the difference will be slight.

If you see my earlier quote from Ken Fischer, it's not just a matter of tolerance. As he said,
" ... never use a disc type cap in a guitar. They do not resonate right in a guitar circuit. A proper tone control should also add resonant tone as it is used, not simply flatten the high end."

this was my observation when I compared ceramic and orange drop caps -- the poly caps had more resonance, IMO.

I would also note that how you hear the difference may depend on your playing style to an extent. If you happen to play Blues, with higher action, and tend to let your notes sing, resonance may be more apparent than if you play County, with a series of rapid single notes.


The problem with ceramics is most modern day Fenders have the dreaded 503Z (0.05µF), which has a tolerance of +80/-20%.
... If you replace that with any other cap that is close to 0.05µF, it sounds totally different. The user blames ceramic technology for the difference, when it is really capacitance value that matters only.

If you see my earlier quote from Ken Fischer, it's not just a matter of tolerance. As he said,
" ... never use a disc type cap in a guitar. They do not resonate right in a guitar circuit. A proper tone control should also add resonant tone as it is used, not simply flatten the high end."

this was my observation when I compared ceramic and orange drop caps -- the poly caps had more resonance, IMO.

Who the hell is Ken Fischer and what the hell does "they do not resonate right in a guitar circuit" mean electrically? As far as I'm concerned, without an electrical explanation, it is just magic or bull****...and I don't believe in magic.

If you always play with the tone wide open then does the cap still make a difference?

A simple test of continuity with a DVM will tell you where and when the cap starts to take effect on the pot. Say we're talking about about standard tele wiring (This is my 50's mod diagram, but it'll do for now):
http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/71ad16ad2c4d81f348082ff6c4b20768/2344_p39557.jpg

At full CW, there is no continuity between the top outside lug and the center lug. You only get continuity when the pot is almost at full CCW. Up until then, the DC resistance of the pot is what is attenuating the "tone".

So... if you hear a difference in the sound with the tone pot at full CW, you're hearing things that cannot possibly be there, because there is no electrical continuity between the outside and center lug. It's a matter of physics: it's just not connected.

And voltage ratings have no relation to the cap's capacitance. 400v or 100v, if the measured capacitance (not what the cap is marked as) is the same, they'll sound the same.

Like Terry said:

* If you use the tone controls near their max CCW positions, experiment with the capacitor value.
* If you use the tone controls near their max CW positions, experiment with pot values and no-load options.

Ken Fischer designed and built the Trainwreck amps. Great amps BTW.:mrgreen:
Don Mare, who makes great pickups, uses ceramic caps. Go figure.

Who the hell is Ken Fischer and what the hell does "they do not resonate right in a guitar circuit" mean electrically? As far as I'm concerned, without an electrical explanation, it is just magic or bull****...and I don't believe in magic.

respectfully, use a little civility, please

if you actually read through the thread, Terry Downs also said that the cap formed part of a resonant circuit with the pickup

I just happen to agree with Ken's comments that the type of cap made a difference, more than Terry's comment that the value of the cap made the more important difference.

my preferences are based on my own experience comparing caps, though -- admittedly hardly scientific, which is one reason I quoted Ken Fischer, who had a thorough training in guitar/ amp electronics, and was fairly widely regarded as having great ears.

incidently, I think Don Mare uses different types of caps. I don't know what he's using in his own guitars, but he sells both orange drops and ceramic caps on his site, and he says that some of the ceramic caps he sells are audio caps, s opposed to "regular" ceramic caps.
I also bought some PIO caps on Don's recommendation a few years ago, but I haven't tested them yet.

anyway, I usually say that we spend more time dicussing tone caps than it's worth :lol:

I think it's interesting that people draw different conclusions. I don't have a problem with that, but I think the important thing is to try different caps to form your opinion. Don't just rely on what others say.

respectfully, use a little civility, please

My apologies. I can come off as grating sometimes...I really meant no offense with the comment.

I understand what Terry was saying about the resonance of the cap. I guess I should have been more clear: how does the type of cap affect the resonance? If Ken Fischer really knows his stuff, he could explain it in scientific terms or with SOME kind of proof. I'm not trying to say anything bad about the guy -- I just feel like claims of this magnitude should always be backed up with data to confirm.

This is my problem with the whole argument: the only guys who come up with numbers, figures and charts are the guys who disbelieve...I've never seen data supporting the type of effect that the cap-supporters claim.

This is my problem with the whole argument: the only guys who come up with numbers, figures and charts are the guys who disbelieve...I've never seen data supporting the type of effect that the cap-supporters claim.

Bingo.:mrgreen:

As far as Don goes, read the text next to the two ceramic caps listed here (http://www.buckcannon.com/coverscapspotsetc.html)...

No comments next to the OD, but glowing reviews of the ceramics.

If you see my earlier quote from Ken Fischer, it's not just a matter of tolerance. As he said,
" ... never use a disc type cap in a guitar. They do not resonate right in a guitar circuit. A proper tone control should also add resonant tone as it is used, not simply flatten the high end."

this was my observation when I compared ceramic and orange drop caps -- the poly caps had more resonance, IMO.



Very respectfully, it is obvious from that statement the person you quoted does not have an electronics engineering degree, or his desire to sell over-priced capacitors is more important than anything else.

First of all a capacitor (ceramic or otherwise) does not resonante by itself except for at very high radio frequencies. The electrical resonance in a guitar is created by the parallel combination of the inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the cable/amp. The tone network is only a resistive damper to that resonance for most of its range. It's only near the tone control CCW postition where the tone cap becomes resonant with the circuit. At that point, there is nothing but mud, albeit resonant mud.

You are being confused with what the the term resonance means. I take it you consider resonance as a good thing. The only time a tone cap "resonates" with the guitar circuit is at or near max CCW setting of the tone pot. That's when all highs are gone.

....

This is my problem with the whole argument: the only guys who come up with numbers, figures and charts are the guys who disbelieve...I've never seen data supporting the type of effect that the cap-supporters claim.

Because they can't.

Because they can't.

Like many areas of major conflict...

I listened to ceramic, foil and I ended up putting the Jensen Angela in, only because it had the same sound as the 1940's Solar cap I had and it fit better.

I understand what Terry was saying about the resonance of the cap. I guess I should have been more clear: how does the type of cap affect the resonance? If Ken Fischer really knows his stuff, he could explain it in scientific terms or with SOME kind of proof. I'm not trying to say anything bad about the guy -- I just feel like claims of this magnitude should always be backed up with data to confirm.

This is my problem with the whole argument: the only guys who come up with numbers, figures and charts are the guys who disbelieve...I've never seen data supporting the type of effect that the cap-supporters claim.

I'm reminded of about 8 or so years ago when some 'amp techs' (one over here who I met and one online who's web page I read) were loudly proclaiming that it made not the slightest difference which vacuum tube you put in an amp. Apparently the only 'measurable' variation was the distortion...or something like that. Had oscilloscope graphs and data to 'prove' it.
Anything else that we guitar players thought was all wishful thinking and imagination, it seems. All the fuss about JJs and Mullards, etc, was just more snake oil...:roll:


As mentioned on another thread, I'm not an expert on the subject of caps but I did notice that my tone controls suddenly became 'functional' (ie, didn't turn the sound to mud as soon as I turned the knob) when I put in Orange Drop caps.
And I only got the things by chance...I had no preconceived ideas about what would happen.


So I'm keeping an open mind (and the Orange Drops).

So I'm keeping an open mind (and the Orange Drops).

But open only in one direction? Or are you actually open to the possibility that either side could be correct?

But open only in one direction? Or are you actually open to the possibility that either side could be correct?

I know that I noticed a more usable tone sweep when I started using the Orange Drop caps. Upper frequencies roll off but it doesn't go immediately dark and mushy the way it always use to.
Are you asking me to be open to the possibility that I'm imagining that?
And please remember that I had no expectations beforehand so the 'wishful thinking' explanation is a non-starter.

My point was that some of the things we 'discuss' here aren't provable by 'scientific data'. Or that 'scientific data' doesn't necessarily disprove something either. There's always the possibility we're missing something.
'As far as we can tell' should prefix every scientific pronouncement.

TG, do you have a DVM? If so, remove your control plate and hook it up to the outside(coming from the vol pot) and middle lug where the cap is. Set it for continuity, and set your tone control full CCW. You should hear the continuity "beep" and it should be steady. Now rotate the tone knob CW until the beep stops. Note where you are on the rotation. This is where the cap is out of the picture.

There is no "as far as we can tell". On every guitar I've done this test to, continuity is disrupted long before the pot is full CW. The cap cannot physically affect the taper. This is solely the function of the pot.

TG,

The point many here are trying to make is that if you indeed hear a difference tone with a different cap, it is more likely caused by the cap's value, and not it's type. If you switched from a .047㎌ ceramic cap to a .047㎌ orange drop and heard a difference, it is most likely due to them being of different values. They may both say .047㎌ on the face, but that's no guarantee that they were actually anywhere close to each other. Many ceramic caps especially can have some pretty wide tolerances.

My point was that some of the things we 'discuss' here aren't provable by 'scientific data'. Or that 'scientific data' doesn't necessarily disprove something either. There's always the possibility we're missing something.
'As far as we can tell' should prefix every scientific pronouncement.

In this case...Yes, they are. It's the difference between science and voodoo. Or Faith and fact. One can be proven through analysis. One can't. The other you have to take someone's word for it.:smile:

I don't doubt that people hear a difference. Why they hear a difference is another story. I think it has more to do with this (http://www.appliedmusic.com/psychoCont.html) than the type of cap.

I think it has more to do with this (http://www.appliedmusic.com/psychoCont.html) than the type of cap.

oh gosh. I don't, really. Though that brings up some interesting questions though. Is there a difference between verifiable cognitive processing of musical signals (such as the missing fundamental, binaural beats, etc.) and other purely psychological phenomena such as the power of suggestion. I am not a psychologist (i just play one here on the internet), but gut tells me that these are two different things.


I think it is more due to something this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/science/02angier.html?em=&pagewanted=all

Worth the whole read, but here is a taste:

[...]
You say a person is warm and likable, as opposed to cold and standoffish? In one recent study at Yale, researchers divided 41 college students into two groups and casually asked the members of Group A to hold a cup of hot coffee, those in Group B to hold iced coffee. The students were then ushered into a testing room and asked to evaluate the personality of an imaginary individual based on a packet of information.

Students who had recently been cradling the warm beverage were far likelier to judge the fictitious character as warm and friendly than were those who had held the iced coffee.

Or maybe you are feeling the chill wind of social opprobrium. When researchers at the University of Toronto instructed a group of 65 students to remember a time when they had felt either socially accepted or socially snubbed, those who conjured up memories of a rejection judged the temperature of the room to be an average of five degrees colder than those who had been wrapped in warm and fuzzy thoughts of peer approval.
[...]

Kp8,

What you link to is not at at odds with the argument of psychoacoustics at all. To the contrary, it is more a reinforcement of that argument, and simply a similar phenomenon transposed to other senses and perceptions.

The argument of psychoacoustic influence is more complicated than simply crying "placebo effect" (though "placebo effect" may actually be applicable, it often carries the connotation of one simply imagining things). When our senses receive a signal, whether it be touch, taste, smell, sight, or sound, there are a lot of complex triggers and filtering that information goes through before it reaches the cognitive mind. Even if the tested factor remains unchanged, other elements that do not affect a real change to that factor will inevitably play a role in way our minds process what information our ears, eyes, tongue, nose, or skin receives. Even though nothing may have really changed, by the time the data actually reaches our cognitive brain, it can be received as having had a very real change.

Since the term "cork-sniffer" seems often used in this field, it seems only appropriate to make comparisons to wine taste tests.

Here's (http://hypography.com/forums/science-news/13949-wine-study-shows-price-influences-perception.html) one related to price.

And here (http://www.mpiweb.org/CMS/MPIweb/Blog/commonblog.aspx?viewblog=3792&groupblog=257) is another related to lighting.

There's another good one in Fast Food Nation, where a test in the 70's is mentioned in which subjects were fed tinted steak and french fries. Under special lighting during the dining, the food appeared as a natural color, and all was well received. When the lighting was switched however, the Steak was revealed to be blue, and the fries green, at which point some subjects actually became ill.

I'm not claiming at this point that every change perceived by anyone changing caps is purely due to psychoacoustics (the way the mind can alter a how a sensory signal is received based on predisposition or influence from other senses). I am trying to emphasize that this phenomenon is very real in all our senses, and it is foolish to think that our ears are any less subject to this than our eyes or nose. This is a very real factor that cannot be ruled out in what changes we hear.

This debate is never going to be resolved by any discussion or testing however, no matter how well reasoned or carried out. Look at all the testing done in the medical field on claims of holistic medicines. Sure, there are indeed many natural and herbal remedies which may have once been disbelieved and have since proven to have at least some genuine effect. For every case like that however, there are scores of others which are quite firmly proven to do nothing of benefit, ranging from benign to harmful, yet no amount of scientific testing or reasoning is ever going to convince the true believers that they do not work.

I'm sure there are plenty of men out there who insist that the little herbal pill they got from the TV commercial really does make a man larger. I'm not quite prepared to write off different capacitor types as at that level of snake oil, but at least consider the possible comparison. I'm simply trying to emphasize the point that as humans, we are not immune to the power of suggestion or the desire to believe in something we really want to be true, and this factor cannot be ruled out in subjective comparisons.

Kp8,

What you link to is not at at odds with the argument of psychoacoustics at all. To the contrary, it is more a reinforcement of that argument, and simply a similar phenomenon transposed to other senses and perceptions.

The argument of psychoacoustic influence is more complicated than simply crying "placebo effect" (though "placebo effect" may actually be applicable, it often carries the connotation of one simply imagining things). When our senses receive a signal, whether it be touch, taste, smell, sight, or sound, there are a lot of complex triggers and filtering that information goes through before it reaches the cognitive mind. Even if the tested factor remains unchanged, other elements that do not affect a real change to that factor will inevitably play a role in way our minds process what information our ears, eyes, tongue, nose, or skin receives. Even though nothing may have really changed, by the time the data actually reaches our cognitive brain, it can be received as having had a very real change.

Since the term "cork-sniffer" seems often used in this field, it seems only appropriate to make comparisons to wine taste tests.

Here's (http://hypography.com/forums/science-news/13949-wine-study-shows-price-influences-perception.html) one related to price.

And here (http://www.mpiweb.org/CMS/MPIweb/Blog/commonblog.aspx?viewblog=3792&groupblog=257) is another related to lighting.

There's another good one in Fast Food Nation, where a test in the 70's is mentioned in which subjects were fed tinted steak and french fries. Under special lighting during the dining, the food appeared as a natural color, and all was well received. When the lighting was switched however, the Steak was revealed to be blue, and the fries green, at which point some subjects actually became ill.

I'm not claiming at this point that every change perceived by anyone changing caps is purely due to psychoacoustics (the way the mind can alter a how a sensory signal is received based on predisposition or influence from other senses). I am trying to emphasize that this phenomenon is very real in all our senses, and it is foolish to think that our ears are any less subject to this than our eyes or nose. This is a very real factor that cannot be ruled out in what changes we hear.

This debate is never going to be resolved by any discussion or testing however, no matter how well reasoned or carried out. Look at all the testing done in the medical field on claims of holistic medicines. Sure, there are indeed many natural and herbal remedies which may have once been disbelieved and have since proven to have at least some genuine effect. For every case like that however, there are scores of others which are quite firmly proven to do nothing of benefit, ranging from benign to harmful, yet no amount of scientific testing or reasoning is ever going to convince the true believers that they do not work.

I'm sure there are plenty of men out there who insist that the little herbal pill they got from the TV commercial really does make a man larger. I'm not quite prepared to write off different capacitor types as at that level of snake oil, but at least consider the possible comparison. I'm simply trying to emphasize the point that as humans, we are not immune to the power of suggestion or the desire to believe in something we really want to be true, and this factor cannot be ruled out in subjective comparisons.

Excellent post!

Kp8,

What you link to is not at at odds with the argument of psychoacoustics at all. To the contrary, it is more a reinforcement of that argument, and simply a similar phenomenon transposed to other senses and perceptions.

The argument of psychoacoustic influence is more complicated than simply crying "placebo effect" (though "placebo effect" may actually be applicable, it often carries the connotation of one simply imagining things).

Yeah. I tend to disagree. I think there is overlap as both are psychological phenomena, but the way "psychoacoustics" is being used here is a bit different than how it is usually encountered in the field.

I think that there is a distinction to be made between cognitive or psychological phenomena that is nearly universally experienced (illusions, binaural beats, the missing fundamental, masking, Shepard tones, etc. & co.) and something like this, which frankly is closer to plain old placebo effect as I see it. Maybe i am putting too fine a point on it. In this case some folks may convince themselves they hear a change with a different cap, but seems that just as many don't. However, if i play 200, 300, 400, and 500 Hz likely EVERYONE here hears the fundamental as 100Hz even though 100Hz is not actually present. It is a small difference but I think a meaningful one.

-kp--

Yeah. I tend to disagree. I think there is overlap as both are psychological phenomena, but the way "psychoacoustics" is being used here is a bit different than how it is usually encountered in the field.

I think that there is a distinction to be made between cognitive or psychological phenomena that is nearly universally experienced (illusions, binaural beats, the missing fundamental, masking, Shepard tones, etc. & co.) and something like this, which frankly is closer to plain old placebo effect as I see it. Maybe i am putting too fine a point on it. In this case some folks may convince themselves they hear a change with a different cap, but seems that just as many don't. However, if i play 200, 300, 400, and 500 Hz likely EVERYONE here hears the fundamental as 100Hz even though 100Hz is not actually present. It is a small difference but I think a meaningful one.

-kp--

When you put it that way, I fully agree with you. That's a very good distinction that I failed to make clear, even in my own thoughts. Thanks!

Here (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=656811&highlight=capacitor) is an interesting GearPage thread on the subject (including contributions from our own David Collins, btw) and post 18 in particular is interesting. I don't claim to totally understand it, but it seems to imply what I've been trying to say...'there may be something going on we aren't taking into account.'
That statement applies to all 'scientific conclusions'. This is why I take offence to being lectured that something definitely is or isn't based on 'science' and that anybody who believes or has experienced it is therefore imagining it.
Maybe you are right...but there's always the possibility, however small, that you aren't. I think it's important not to dismiss that possibility.

I personally have no 'belief' one way or the other. I just found...UNEXPECTEDLY...that an Orange Drop cap allowed me to roll the tone control off halfway and still play. I had no preconceived notion to convince myself of. And I've have plenty of experience with different ceramic caps and the difference had dick all to do with tolerances and values. It wasn't like a smaller value cap...and the same thing happened when I put them in my other guitars. I don't know why...and I don't know what, if anything, would happen if I tried some other fancy capacitors. Maybe nothing.

Here's another post cut from a thread on the topic on the MyLesPaul forum. I don't understand it very well either...but it also seems to suggest the possibility of 'more going on'.

Actually, there IS proof to be had, and an explanation to be gleamed.

Tone, or rather, the way it is perceived, is nothing more than an interpretation of electrical current flow by the amplifier, or any other transducer. The amplifier mainly interprets the signal, and the speaker reproduces the sound according to the nature of that signal.

There are various qualities of such a signal that affects the resultant sound. Voltage levels, which determine the volume, frequency, which determines the pitch, and also, the natural harmonics produced within that same signal by the strings, and how the pickups are converting that energy into a current. All of this mainly creates a general shape of tone.

There is one more thing about the signal that many overlook as a tone contributor. Phase. I don't mean being in or out of phase as in pickups. I mean the phase angle of the signal. That phase also affects how the speaker is going to interpret that signal.

Is it possible that capacitors alters the current's phase in any way that affects the tone? Why not? all LPFs and HPFs in some form or another involves resistance and capacitance. The discharge characteristics of that capacitor also matters, and different materials discharge the stored charges differently. THIS has been proven, and is a basic "A" level physics study when students learn about capacitance, and how to build their own crude paper capacitor.

We know that the phase angle is affected when you drill down to the smallest fraction of a second, because of the discharge quality. WHEN the current is discharged, and HOW it is discharged matters. This alters the phase because of the way the discharged current interacts with the principle current.

Don't take offense TG. I don't doubt that you hear a difference. But the reason you hear a difference, well that's another thing.:grin:

The cap does not enter the picture until the pot is almost at full CCW. Period. Not halfway. The cap isn't "there". If you ground the unused lug on the pot, this will change things. You will experience the cap being slowly added to the signal until the pot is almost at full CCW. Then you won't have any signal at all. Why? Because it's grounded. Think of the pot as resistive switch, with the middle lug being the common.

It's like there's eight ounces of liquid in a cup. There isn't nine, or seven. It's measurable. Same thing with caps and pots. It's as simple as a cup of water.

I also wonder why no one has hooked up a DVM and seen for themselves?

As Terry says (albeit with more syllables) You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I challenge anyone to try the DVM test.:twisted:

Don't take offense TG. I don't doubt that you hear a difference. But the reason you hear a difference, well that's another thing.:grin:


I don't know an awful lot about electronics so to agree with you I'd have to 'take your word for it'. Which you earlier implied we shouldn't do if we are to be rational and scientific.
There are other people who also seem knowledgeable who think that possibly there may a logical reason for a cap to have an influence on an electric guitar's signal. To 'believe' them I'd also have to take their word for it. The reason I lean more towards them than you is because they seem open to the notion that there might be something we're missing...and they don't automatically assume that everybody who thinks they hear something is imagining it. I also think that there is more to a guitar's sound quality than voltages and EQ levels (otherwise strats and teles would sound the same). I don't know what 'phase' (that the fellow in my link mentions) means, but at least he's trying to find out what might be going on instead of assuming 'voodoo' and dismissing it completely.
As well as the amplifier valve example I mentioned earlier, I'm also recalling old discussions about overall string length, saddle material, body material, shielding, etc where there were also those who used 'scientific reasoning' to prove that something was baseless and that everybody was 'imagining it'.

Your statement that you accept I hear a difference but that you assume it's some psychological effect irritates me for a couple of reasons.

One, because it involves you making an assumption, ie, a guess. However 'educated' it's still a guess. That is a no-no if you are also trying to champion rationality and reliance upon facts. You can't have it both ways.

Two, I've told you that I had no idea of what was 'supposed' to happen when I changed to Sprague caps. I just bought 'a pack of capacitors' for an Esquire project and installed one in my tele after a solder break (I'd cut the old cap's wire a bit short and decided to change since I had a new cap handy). Then I noticed a different quality to the tone control roll off than before. So I can't see how or why would I be psychologically influenced to 'hear' something? Ignoring this 'detail' because it interferes with your chosen conclusion is in itself unscientific.

And I've experimented with different value ceramic caps in the past...and installed quite a few in various guitars over the years...so if it were to do with a random value variation I think I'd have found a similar thing happen before.

So maybe you are right. But maybe you aren't.

Life was soooooo much simpler when I only used these caps:

http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/paper-caps-in-rolls.jpg

:lol:

Life was soooooo much simpler when I only used these caps:

http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/paper-caps-in-rolls.jpg

:lol:

Ya. They were fun.

[removed bad link]

I don't know an awful lot about electronics so to agree with you I'd have to 'take your word for it'.

No, you don't have to take my word for it. Do the test with a voltmeter set to continuity. Then you'll see for yourself when and where your cap comes into the picture. It's a simple, easy to do test. Give it a go!

Look, I'm not a guy in a lab coat. I'm a guitar player, have been for 40+ years. I wind my own pickups, build my own guitars and amps. I sculpt my sound from the bottom to the top, using my ears more than my calculator, and the last thing I worry about is what kind of tone cap I have in the guitar. My guitar cable is more important than the tone cap is.

I know we all hear things differently. Yes, caps make a big difference in amplifiers, because of the voltages present and what they're designed to do. No, Strats and Teles don't sound alike. There are big differences between the two. They're not just wood and steel.

I don't think you're imagining things, I believe you when you say you hear a difference. I never once said that it's related to "placebo effect" (mostly because it's kind of carries a negative connotation to it). And if you bother to read the stuff on psychoacoustics, and has more to do with the physiological reasons you hear it than you think:

From David's post above:

The argument of psychoacoustic influence is more complicated than simply crying "placebo effect" (though "placebo effect" may actually be applicable, it often carries the connotation of one simply imagining things). When our senses receive a signal, whether it be touch, taste, smell, sight, or sound, there are a lot of complex triggers and filtering that information goes through before it reaches the cognitive mind. Even if the tested factor remains unchanged, other elements that do not affect a real change to that factor will inevitably play a role in the way our minds process what information our ears, eyes, tongue, nose, or skin receives. Even though nothing may have really changed, by the time the data actually reaches our cognitive brain, it can be received as having had a very real change.

Each of us is an individual complex set of filters. We hear the same things differently.:grin:

Anyway, the bottom line is if you're happy with your setup, your playing will show that. If a certain type of cap helps you get there, then it's all good.

Here's all the proof you need right here.

http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/back-to-the-future/flux-capacitor-schematic.jpg

Of course it requires a 1.21 gigawatt power supply, and I can't seem to find them in the .022㎌ I prefer. Still looking though... :grin:

Gotta wait for a good lightening storm to get that rocking!

And if you bother to read the stuff on psychoacoustics, and has more to do with the physiological reasons you hear it than you think:


I did. Did some Googling and reading as well. But it didn't seem to say anything anywhere about randomly altering the way you hear something for no apparent reason...and certainly not co-incidental to when you happen to change a component of your musical instrument with no expectation of change whatsoever.
If I accidentally change bronze acoustic guitar strings to phosphor bronze (ie, without looking at the packet) and hear a difference is that psychoacoustics as well?
I don't think so.

Sorry, but the psychoacoustic thing doesn't wash, regardless of the impressive jargon.

...................... I'm simply trying to emphasize the point that as humans, we are not immune to the power of suggestion or the desire to believe in something we really want to be true, and this factor cannot be ruled out in subjective comparisons.

Mr. Collins, that's one of the more profound and eloquent statements I have read on this subject.

I did. Did some Googling and reading as well. But it didn't seem to say anything anywhere about randomly altering the way you hear something for no apparent reason...and certainly not co-incidental to when you happen to change a component of your musical instrument with no expectation of change whatsoever.
If I accidentally change bronze acoustic guitar strings to phosphor bronze (ie, without looking at the packet) and hear a difference is that psychoacoustics as well?
I don't think so.

Sorry, but the psychoacoustic thing doesn't wash, regardless of the impressive jargon.

If you don't see it, you don't see it. And FWIW, your above statement shows that you didn't read it (or even understand it) otherwise your answer would have been different. Whatever. Again, you can lead a horse to water...

I think I'll move along with this one last statement:

In my opinion and experience, the only thing that makes a difference in the way capacitors sound in a guitar tone circuit is the value of the cap. YMMV.

Wow, is this thread still going?!

SO, I have ordered 4 different valued orange drop caps and I have an expensive .047 from RS, and a cheapy .047 as well...

AND, I have a 6 position rotary 4 pole switch for another project that I am going to borrow and put all 6 caps in to test...

I look forward to a double blind test when the orange drop ones arrive... I'm pretty sure the expensive RS cap will sound the best, because they said so... :)

Wow, is this thread still going?!

SO, I have ordered 4 different valued orange drop caps and I have an expensive .047 from RS, and a cheapy .047 as well...

AND, I have a 6 position rotary 4 pole switch for another project that I am going to borrow and put all 6 caps in to test...

I look forward to a double blind test when the orange drop ones arrive... I'm pretty sure the expensive RS cap will sound the best, because they said so... :)

Will you also measure their ACTUAL values compared with stated values?

If you don't see it, you don't see it. And FWIW, your above statement shows that you didn't read it (or even understand it) otherwise your answer would have been different. Whatever. Again, you can lead a horse to water...


Bollocks.

.......I'm pretty sure the expensive RS cap will sound the best, because they said so... :)

RS is probably second only to Auricap for providing the biggest bunch of hogwash and hype about capacitors. It is unethical lies.

I'm thinking I need to cool this thread down a bit by throwing some politics of religious discussion in...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Ebath.png

I'm thinking I need to cool this thread down a bit by throwing some politics of religious discussion in...

Aw, why ruin such a good thing? http://www.thefenderforum.com/forum/images/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif

Bollocks.

Hmm... When faced with facts, the uninformed usually respond with vulgarity. Well done TG!http://www.thefenderforum.com/forum/images/smilies/appl.gif

You're now on my ignore list.

http://rightbrainplanner.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/snake-oil.jpg

I think this what Hovland use to fill their paper caps...I've heard that it's perfect for that warm, mellow tone.

Seriously tho, a capacitor is a capacitor no matter what it is made of. The only differences would be due to the tolerances that the capacitor is made to as Terry, Fezz and probably dozens of other more qualified people have said ad nausuem over the years on TDPRI.

Do you think we could do a TDPRI Mythbusters team?

[IMG]...... a capacitor is a capacitor no matter what it is made of. ......

Let's make sure to caveat that with "when used at audio frequencies and low voltages".

How does one extract oil from a rattlesnake? Can you imagine what their factory was like? :shock:

Let's make sure to caveat that with "when used at audio frequencies and low voltages".

Ditto!

I have no dog in this hunt, except that I despise rogue suppliers of products that cause good intentioned players to pay big prices for a silly capacitor that has no function other than killing treble.

I'm beginning to feel that way too! It's either, the more Caps I try or the older my ears get...the less it matters! I just swapped out an old ceramic disc cap (.047) for Russian PIO of the same value in a Strat & I'll be darned if I can tell the difference between the two? To my ears there's not much going on or treble roll off till I hit approx 7 on the tone knob w/ either of the caps.

Correct me if I'm wrong:
I am so blessed/unblessed to live near Dan Torres's Shop. When I asked him for a Cap that rolls the trebles off quicker, he said: "A cap doesn't roll the trebles off quicker, that's determined by the Value of the Tone Pot. A capacitor only rolls off a certain amount of treble." Does that make sense?

Reason being: I wanted to roll the highs down quicker on the Bridge pickup in a chambered Tele because it wasn't responding quick enough when I wanted to kill the highs, but I also didn't want the neck pup to lose the highs, because it was a little muddy sounding, esp on the wound strings. I then went from the 330k tone pot to a 250k upon DT's suggestion, since he said that if I want it happen quicker...lower the value of the Tone Pot...Huh. I would of thought it to be just the opposite?

For clarification: There was a Humbucker in the neck & an Area T at the bridge. I've since replaced the pickups w/ Fralin P-92 neck & a Dimarzio Virtual Hot T at the bridge. The balance is better w/ this combo, but I would still like to kill the highs faster or should I say the amount? :confused:

To quote a line from the Falcon & the Snowman: "I don't know who I am any more"

What I have in there now:
500k vol pot
250k tone pot
.033 orange drop cap
Fralin P-92 8000 winds
Dimarzio Virtual Hot T 9.33K

I have a Box of Caps here - new & very old
100's of them - I collect them - and friends know I like caps and give me their collections, I also make it a point to ebay for ones I do not have - just to test them- I think I paid $8.00 for a NOS Mullard Cap once- just to hear it - I never put it in any guitars - it did not sound as great as other caps I have here.

I have fun with them - this is how;
I run two wires out from under my control plate - these two wires have Aligator Clips on them - I have every top artist that comes here set down and run thru them - the results are always a vote, for the same 3- or -4 in the end

sadly never has one modern cap been in the top 5...


we prefer "human ears" over machines or school taught theory's..
if I offended anyone here saying that - then I do apologize in advance,ok

I just wanted to post how we figured out, how to test caps here at my shop -
if there's another way and a better way, I'd love to learn it, and then maybe try it and do more cap test - but for now - we like our way..

and I do hope you like your way too - whatever way you choose to analyze your caps is fine with me,

I honestly see no reason to fight over caps - or spit or argue even - its to easy to just listen to them - and they are so cheap - even if the NOS stuff or reissue stuff cost onwards up to $15.00 - $20.00 that is really nothing as far as a component of great tone goes -
if its good or better and if I can hear it (or you can hear it) , Id pay the $15.00- $20.00 for one - ( and I have) even if the originally sold for less then 0.25 cents. -
look how much we pay for tone pedals & amps..patch cords, ( pickups too)

Disclaimer: I do offer for sell both new and old caps on my site - so I'm pretty neutral in any strictness in this ( I hope I am?) :roll:
except I openly admit I do dig Ceramic Audio Caps from the 50's to 60's era.
there's been two types pass thru here that's been exceptional in the test we do here- one was the RMC .050 @100 volts and last week I got a stash of Cornell Dubliners .050 @50 volts-
I have had Junior Watson - Rick Holmstrom and a few other top dogs - try these and then switch their guitars over, changing out their personal Oldies but goodies that they had collected

cheers
Don M

PS.. I like the technical info that's been posted in this thread - wish I had something to ad to it - as to reason or why we are choosing these caps other then just saying we hear it. - but I do not.. sorry

I used the alligator clips method to test various caps I had in my drawer.
http://homepage.bluewin.ch/scherer/mediac/400_0/media/7e559d89ace023a9ffff814fffa86322.jpghttp://homepage.bluewin.ch/scherer/mediac/400_0/media/7e559d89ace023a9ffff8150ffa86322.jpg
The only significant thing I heard was between values. This helped me know that .047 was my favourite value for a Tele tone cap.

Hi everyone

a lively discussion, befitting the subject, since so many variations in tone and range can be found with so many capacitors- and we're not even bringing in the treble bleed circuit to the mix!

For my last Tele hybrid, I auditioned about 20 capacitors of different types, taping them to a card and noting their values beside each one. I took several days, using different preamp, power amp, and tone settings, and with different amps. I settled on an orange drop type cap at .015 uf (as I recall- haven't looked in a while)- not the typical values in Teles (or Pauls, for that matter...). When I roll off the tone pot all the way to the bass end, it just gets really creamy- never too dark or muddy. I may change it later, or better yet, I'll probably add a switch, so I can have 2 or 3 caps to select.

Anyhoo, what I want to say is, there are so many variables in getting "our" tone- so many caps, so many pots, resistors, p'ups, woods, finishes, amps, tubes, cables-

but that's what makes it so gosh-danged FUN!!!

I really like this forum- so much to learn. Thanks, guys!

Once again, if you use the alligator clips, and the person playing or listening knows or can see what cap they are using at any given time, any goals of objective comparisons are completely out the window. If you really want honest comparisons, have someone else wire those caps to a switch (so you don't know which is which), and put it in a box so you can't see what you're using.

The alligator clip test is not a valid or objective method of comparison.

that's true to some extent. What I had done was to have my son switch to different caps (after I had gone through them a few times) while I tried different tone and amp settings. I was trying my best to choose either the .047 or the .022 caps, since they are the most commonly used values for single and double coil pickups. I was surprised when I chose the .015. I'll still probably add a switch to have multiple choices.

Good point.

wow. i am so happy that i have no real idea about all this stuff. that would finally drive me crazy. eddie

When you guys try different caps in the tone pot, does it affect the tone even if the tone if fully turned up or is it only when you roll it back?

When you guys try different caps in the tone pot, does it affect the tone even if the tone if fully turned up or is it only when you roll it back?

Hi, once the cap is grounded to the circuit it loads ( darkens )
On the Esquire Wiring they unload the Tone - taking it out of the circut
the load is lessened and the sound is suddenly brighter and louder...

I think together here on this thread, we have all figured out how to optimize the "Aligator Clip Test"!!! ( that's great )
One thing for sure; it will help you decide what value is best for you!
It looks like we also agreed, - using a real blindfolded test is of some value too!
at least this gives us Tele Players a way to test caps - and even better - something we can all agree too! I-Hope~~:smile:

Hi, once the cap is grounded to the circuit it loads ( darkens )
On the Esquire Wiring they unload the Tone - taking it out of the circut
the load is lessened and the sound is suddenly brighter and louder...

I think together here on this thread, we have all figured out how to optimize the "Aligator Clip Test"!!! ( that's great )
One thing for sure; it will help you decide what value is best for you!
It looks like we also agreed, - using a real blindfolded test is of some value too!
at least this gives us Tele Players a way to test caps - and even better - something we can all agree too! I-Hope~~:smile:

Thanks, I've been wanting to rewire my tele with a push pull switch or something like that so I could bypass the volume and tone pots like an esquire to get that "boost", it'd be nice.

WOW !!!!!! I knew all those college classes like psychology and such would come in handy someday!!!!! I actually understood SOME of this and there were graphs and everything LOL !!!! I thought bein a guitar player meant we didnt hafta think about much except stayin in time and tune and that was the draw for me. My hats off to ya for really thinkin this stuff through but Im afraid you guys may be worrying about things that make such a small difference only you would notice. But thats just my opinion

No offence to the guys in the thread just bein a goof:razz:

Thanks, I've been wanting to rewire my tele with a push pull switch or something like that so I could bypass the volume and tone pots like an esquire to get that "boost", it'd be nice.

I believe you can use a no-load tone pot for the same effect :)

I guess it's like wine.

I can't tell the difference from one brand to another. I just drink what I like.
well said.