4 Single coils, 4 Volumes - 5-way superswitch

Howdy gang!

Got a new one to try:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/Peter-Rabbit/4SCs4volNov0609.jpg

I've been noodling around trying to find a way to access the full range of switching/mixing for all the coils in either a pair of humbuckers or some number of single coils. Many of you have seen the results - it's not a pretty sight.

So, maybe this will help me to get a more useful set-up. Considering the number of HB vs non-HB combos there are, it looks very good to me! (Unless, of course, for some reason that I don't see, I can't do this.)

I do need HELP wiring the superswitch to act as a 5-way tone control. - I don't understand superswitch wiring yet.

Also, I've been looking at the possibilities of a single toggle that will put ALL pups into Series or Parallel at once, while retaining thier individuality elsewise. Maybe, maybe not.

Also also, can anyone tell me how to insert an avatar, Please!

Thanks guys.

Peter, go to the USer CP. ON the left you will find 'edit avatar'.
AS for your pickup/switch/pot arrangment.....I am no help to you there. I don't really see what you are aiming for. That said...good luck and let us know what you get done.
The most sounds I have been able to get out of 4 coils is 16.....some series/parallel switching, some phase switching, some combi switching. There is only one volume on the guitar with those options along with one treble cut and one bass cut. Very versatile guitar and easy to use as well.
I have a series of 10 pages of diagrams on how to get 33 sounds out of two humbuckers, which after all adds up to 4 single coils????? IT take 4 push/pulls with terminal strips soldered on top of three of those pots.....2 volumes/2 tones...and a 3-way toggle. YEs, it was a Gibson LEs Paul. That was a complex guitar....and I didn't spend enough time with it to become really facile with the variations. IT was the best sounding L.P. Custom that I have ever picked up....straight unswitched sonics, that is. The variations got really interesting adn were very usable. IT would just take a while to map it all out. LOL

Well Wally, thanks, I got the avatar up - great!

The help I need is in wiring the 5-way switch to accomodate the capacitors, turning the 5-way into a tone pot with a bypass and 4 tone positions - values yet to be determined. Gotta try 'em and see.

In terms of the number of combinations one can get, the formula is [2 to the power of N (number of coils) less 1 - all coils off)], so for 4 coils the number is 15. And, for 5 coils - 31 combos, 6 coils 63, etc.

Of course, these don't factor in separate volume controls for each coil, which makes the combos infinite in number.

Also, note that I am going to try using 1 Meg no-load pots for all 5 volume pots, so that when on full, the signal has a true pass-through.

I haven't really delved into the Les Paul side of things, but I'm always looking!

Thanks again,

Peter

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An adult is a person who has stopped growing at both ends and is now growing in the middle.

RAbbit wrote: "In terms of the number of combinations one can get, the formula is [2 to the power of N (number of coils) less 1 - all coils off)], so for 4 coils the number is 15. And, for 5 coils - 31 combos, 6 coils 63, etc."

That formula does not consider all of the variables. My guitar is proof thereof. I have in essence four coils. With the switching I have arranged, there are definitely 16 sounds available.....all unique..no repetitions. The Gibson I mentioned definitely had just 4 coils and 33 sounds....some of them very close but there were far more than 15 unique sounds in that arrangement. Formulas must always consider all variables. Your formula might might yield 15 with 4 coils and your particular variables, but that is not a limit with four coils.

Hey Wally! Nice to hear from you again.

Regarding the pup combos, I'm talking about the 15 switching possibilities shown at the top of my diagram (above), WITHOUT any other circuits like PAR/SER, Phase I/O, Volumes, tones, etc. - just the pups. If you can get more, please tell me how, I really would like to understand.

Thanks for dropping by, talk to you soon, I hope!

Peter

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What Do You Call Santa’s Helpers?
Subordinate Clauses.

Peter, in effect what you are doing is choosing various phase relationships and various series relationships and various parallel relationships...even though you are not using switches to do this, right? . You are doing it via volume pots. Imho, it is easier to switch for these relationships as opposed to turning one-four vol pots to achieve the relationships. I see that you are getting 15 selections. My 'strat' build with a 5-way, two p/p pots and a in-switch has 16 humbucking sounds with a treble cut pot and a bass cut pot. The bass cut pot is very useful in OD when things get muddy with the more powerful combis. Imho, it doesn't matter how one gets the relationships....switching is siply a quick way to bring pups in and out of the circuit in whatever way the switch conducts. Your volume pots are essentially doing the same functions as certain switches.
FWIW, all of this wiring is a bunch of fun....I liek variety and would probably enjoy messing around with a guitar wired as you are proposing.

Hi Peter, here's a site you might be interested in, lots of wiring diagrams, explainations and options. Guitar Wiring Site, http://www.1728.com/guitar.htm They claim a possible 40 options from 2 humbuckers and 73 if you add all the phase options!! I haven't tried for 40, let alone 73, but it's all there if you want it. Seriously, the info about more standard phase, series, parallel etcetera wirings is very helpful.

G'day to y'all.

Wally: Peter, in effect what you are doing is choosing various phase relationships and various series relationships and various parallel relationships...even though you are not using switches to do this, right? . .
Nay laddie! Not at all! What I've got is only the pup selection - no phasing, ser/par'ing or anything - as far as I can tell, everything is currently in phase, in parallel mode. I am thinking of adding some more switches for that, but not yet.

You are doing it via volume pots. Imho, it is easier to switch for these relationships as opposed to turning one-four vol pots to achieve the relationships

The main reason for the pots instead of switches is the infinite variability of tones - I'm not using this one for gigging, maybe recording, we'll see. I did diagram this using SPDTs but I didn't feel like it had enough ... well, variety.

And yeah, this is a lot of fun - I've done a few different diagrams - if you click my avatar (Jimi) I think you can find the threads started by me. You might find it amusing!

LuvN Guitars: Thanks, I have been there before, but kinda forgot about it, so I will definitely head back there for another look, especially for the 5-way superswitch! (I'm really having trouble internalizing the 4 poles) Also I have looked at Seymour Duncan's excellent site under support, and WD Guitars as well.

Thanks again, guys! Keep it comin'!

Peter

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If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

Peter, I may have overlooked a thing or two; so maybe you aren't delving into series and parallel/in phase-out of phase situations. I noticed that you have two selections of two coils in non-humbucking relationships 1 + 3, 2=4. That is what made me think that you were using a phase situation since two coils linked for non-humbucking can only be achieved with in-phase wiring vesus the series of normal humbucking operation. How are you achieveing that non-humbucking relationship...whether it is series/in phase or parallel/in phase, it has to be different from the out-of-phase humbucking arrangement
that you have achieved for 1+2,1+4 and 3+4??? IT seems that to achieve that difference you are having to do something because you have all of the pups wired to the volumes in the same manner, right??? REd to lead and black to ground?? Would that not yield in-phase relationships in all combi's? Still learning, though, and I might be missing something.
Regardless, good luck with it all....and I like variety.

Hi Wally - good to hear from you!

Well, I'm definitely still learning (feels like the 5th grade sometimes), but the only reason that I thought 1 + 3 and 2 + 4 would NOT be humbucking was because coils 2 and 4 are reverse wound/reverse polarity (they are the middle pups from 2 Strat sets), and I figured that with pups 1 + 3 having the normal wrap and polarity and 2 + 4 being RWRP that those two combos would act like a 2 SC Tele - NO HB - lots of hum! That just leaves everything else being HB - no?.

I should mention that this is going into my FIRST BUILD from the tree trunk up, so, naturally, I'm going to be: (choose one)
[ ] thorough
[ ] nit-picky
[ ] meticulous
[ ] manic
[ ] psychotic
[ ] a Tele owner

I have a nice pair of EMG passive HBs that I will probably use in another build, and as you pointed out an HB is just 2 SCs, (1 RWPR) so any wiring schemes I come up with here OUGHT to work for 2 HBs as well, d'ya think? (famous last words)

I most certainly may be completely WRONG about this. If so, HELP!

I STILL need help for wiring the 5-way SuperSwitch as a tone control.

Thanks Wally, your input is appreciated and thought-provoking!

Peter

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission.
Eleanor Roosevelt

The last build I did with 4 single coils was a while ago, and I wish I had pictures! The SC's were arranged the same as yours, with #2 and#4 being RWRP. I wired an on/off rocker switch for each pup, and then just a standard volume pot and tone pot. I didn't go so far as series/parallel, but with the simple wiring I could achieve an incredible amount of tone variation just by pickup selection and tone pot position. It worked really well, but in hindsight, I would like to try it with a separate volume for each pup for blending volume levels and with the on/off switching for selection. wooooo Now I have to build another darn guitar! Whatever shall I do?

Howdy folks!

originalmatthew: Welcome to my particular corner of wiring heaven. I'm thinking of just skipping the on/off switches and using the separate volumes for pup selection - I know it may end up a little more fiddley to control, but I'm not gigging with this axe (at least for now) so I don't care. ANY advice from your experiences is greatly appreciated.

Do you, perchance, understand the switch wiring for a 5T4P superswitch? I want to use it for a tone control (see pic above, in 1st post).

And I guess you'll just have to give in and build another guitar! (paint it white after Peter the White Rabbit here, with hardware as black as the night sky!)

CC: If you see this, let me know, OK?

Thanks guys, the more ideas the better!!!

Peter

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I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

I do need HELP wiring the superswitch to act as a 5-way tone control. - I don't understand superswitch wiring yet.


There it is.
As you can see, a superswitch is overkill for that application : only one pole is needed.
With the resistor value you chose, it will act like a tone control always on full (i.e. brightest), so you might not feel a lot of difference between the settings. Be prepared to tweak this resistor value, from 500k downto zero.

Hey there, everybody!

jlerhun: With that diagram, you have just saved my sanity - thank you, thank you, thank you! You make it look so simple!

Two more questions, though:
1- which switch would you recommend? (the price difference between a 2 wafer switch and a single wafer one is about a buck, do you know of another that would work better? And, please, not a rotary switch - I'm REALLY not up on that wiring!)
2- and which cap values? I received from Borge (thanks again!) a formula for determining the relationship between the pot's value and the cap's:
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/Peter-Rabbit/formulaforcapvaluespermegaOhm04.jpg
but as you can see, I dont know what the symbols c, C, & R stand for, if you know, or can figure it out, please let me know - this is a bit beyond me right now. His recommendation is to first solve for Frequency (Hz) using existing values, then solve the right side of the equation using the previous calculation (Hz) plus the new pot value.

Isn't this fun?

Thanks again,

Peter

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For every action, there is an equal and opposite government program.

jlerhun: With that diagram, you have just saved my sanity - thank you, thank you, thank you! You make it look so simple!

You're welcome !
1- which switch would you recommend? (the price difference between a 2 wafer switch and a single wafer one is about a buck, do you know of another that would work better? And, please, not a rotary switch - I'm REALLY not up on that wiring!)

A SuperSwitch IS a 5-way, 4-pole rotary switch. Lying on its side. :rolleyes:

For your application, i would go for a 1P6T or 1P12T rotary switch. A round hole is easier to drill than a slot ! As i said before, you could use a standard strat switch if you don't mind the settings being in a "wrong" order by adding capacitances in positions 2 and 4.
That one is another superswitch : http://www.thomann.de/fr/goeldo_eyb_schalter.htm
and this one too : http://forum.ibanez.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=73848
There are also variable capacitors (yes, continuous variation !) but i doubt a suitable value range will fit in a solidbody guitar : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Variable_Capacitor.jpg
I dont know what the symbols c, C, & R stand for, if you know, or can figure it out, please let me know - this is a bit beyond me right now.

fc is a single symbol, the c is small and low : it means "cutoff frequency", the frequency in Hertz at which the filter cuts half of the signal amplitude (i.e. -3dB)
C is the value of the capacitor, in Farad
R is the value of the resistor, in Ohm

There's no comma between R and C, it's a multiplication. Let's take an example :
In my SG, i've got a tone pot of 500k, with a tone cap of 22nF. The cutoff frequency when the tone pot is rolled off will be 1/(2 x 3.1416 x 500,000 Ohm x 0.000,000,022 Farad) = 14.5 Hz, not taking into account the rest of the circuit (resonnance frequency of the pickup, volume pot, cable capacitance, amplifier input).

Here is a quick R-C filter calculator, implementing that formula : http://www.muzique.com/schem/filter.htm

Ahh, jlerhun, tu parle Francais, n'est pas? I lived in Montreal par juste 2 ans, mais I learned enough to get by, 'ou son la salle de bain', 'combien pour une kilo' etc... I think Paris and Toronto (Canada) are my two favorite cities.

About your response - around these parts we say "Holy Crap" about information that good!! Clearly you've been attacking this wiring stuff a LOT more than I have.

First, Thanks again and again for this help. The explanation of the symbols in the formula is a HUGE help. As you suspected, since I'm using 1meg no-load pots, the capacitance will have to vary from the usual suspects: .047, .022, etc.

You have mentioned that "With the resistor value you chose, it will act like a tone control always on full (i.e. brightest), so you might not feel a lot of difference between the settings. Be prepared to tweak this resistor value, from 500k downto zero." What do you think about the idea of combining this cap/switch with a variable resistor rather than a fixed one? And then, of course, what value combinations will sound good?

That variable capacitor from Wikimedia does look a little large, but since this is a custom build - cutting and routing my own body - I can have any depth or thickness I want. So, maybe a variable resistor and a variable capacitor instead of the superswitch? Sheesh - too many variables (bad pun intended)

BTW, I did know that 3-way, 5-way, etc. switches and rotaries were brothers under the skin, I don't understand the wiring logic of either.

Now that thats nearly sorted, I'm gonna try to add some Ser/Par DPDTs - using the Rothstein Diagram on the left:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/Peter-Rabbit/4SCsDONENEWNov130903.jpg

What do you think? And if I wanted to add a third DPDT for Ser/Par, where might I put it - between coils 2 & 3, or after the first two switches as a Master? Or both with 2 DPDTs???

Here's one idea for the look of the thing:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/Peter-Rabbit/VG268.jpg

4 SCs, 4 SC vol knobs, Master tone and vol knobs, 2 Ser/Par toggles (could be 3), 5-way switch (one with a Strat Tip, one with a Tele Tip, take your choice!)

Peter

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Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don’t have film.

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~baschwar/humor/EngineersView.jpg

Ahh, jlerhun, tu parle Francais, n'est pas?
Bien sûr, je suis français !
I never went to Canada (i'd like to), and i currently live near Paris.

What do you think about the idea of combining this cap/switch with a variable resistor rather than a fixed one? And then, of course, what value combinations will sound good?

I suggest you wire a temporary variable resistor, to find the the value that sounds best to you. That will act just like a classic tone control. If the value is different for each position, no problem ! You can use a different resistor for each cap, just wire it in series with the cap. You will then have five preset treble cut settings (one of them being bypass/no load/full twang).
That variable capacitor from Wikimedia does look a little large, but since this is a custom build - cutting and routing my own body - I can have any depth or thickness I want. So, maybe a variable resistor and a variable capacitor instead of the superswitch? Sheesh - too many variables (bad pun intended)

Yes indeed, too many variables. As you can see in the formula, R and C appear at the same place, and could be swapped (multiplication allows that). It means that if you want to change the cutoff frequency of the filter, you only need to change one of them. Guitar makers chose a long time ago to vary the R (using a pot) and keep C fixed, because it's less bulky and probably cheaper than using a variable capacitor and a fixed resistor. Varying both at the same time is not very useful.
BTW, I did know that 3-way, 5-way, etc. switches and rotaries were brothers under the skin, I don't understand the wiring logic of either.
Just look at them closely. Do you see that small crescent-shaped metal tab that moves when you rotate that shaft or lever ? It's always in contact with one lug (hence named "common"), and makes contact with one of the other nearby lugs, one at a time. All these switches do the same thing, with one or several metal tabs (aka poles), and a variable number of switched lugs (aka throws).
A standard Telecaster switch is a 2-poles, 3-throws switch, 2P3T for short. A Superswitch or a PRS rotary switch are 4P5T. A push-pull pot is 2P2T, or DPDT. The only subtlety is the Strat switch : it has 5 positions, but only 3 throws ! The in-between positions actually connect two adjacent lugs to the common lug, which easily makes parallel connections.

What do you think? And if I wanted to add a third DPDT for Ser/Par, where might I put it - between coils 2 & 3, or after the first two switches as a Master? Or both with 2 DPDTs???

You'll have to lift the ground of one coil of each pair to get series wiring : look closely at the Rothstein Diagram, the upper pickup has its black wire to ground, whereas the lower pickup has its black wire to the switch. It goes to ground in parallel mode, but it goes to the red wire of the other pickup in series mode. All the black wires are tied to gound in you latest diagram, defeating the purpose of the switches.
I would use a volume for each pickup, then connect each pair either in series or parallel with a switch, then connect both pairs with a third ser/par switch. After that, master volume and master tone (5-way).