Just returned to the Old World - My old apartment has no grouding at all

Just returned to the Old World - My apartment has no grounding. Yeah, this is true, now what to do?

I have notice that original Tweed Deluxe have a .05ufd cap between fuse holder and ground. Is this some kind of safety device?

I will appreciate very much your opinions.

Thanks

Is this a trick question?No !This capacitor was initially put there to reduce hum in the amplifier.If the wire that´s connected to the fuse holder becomes the "hot" wire from your outlet (117 Volt) and the cap shorts out, the amp chassie and everything that´s grounded on your guitar(bridge,the strings..) will be hot.If the outlet isn´t grounded the fuse won´t blow.That capacitor is usually referred to as the death cap and should be removed immediately if you find it in an amplifier.I hope I have explained it clearly enough.Limbe

It sounds like you may already be familiar with this stuff, but just in case:

A two-pronged outlet may often be grounded through whatever conduit is carrying the wiring. This is true even for many older buildings. The 3-prong "cheater" adapters can often solve this problem by creating their ground path through the screw tab, which ultimately connects to the conduit. I ran this way for a couple of years without a problem. Everyone should pick up an outlet tester anyway - just to be sure.

My 1926 house has no grounding either - but is this also a problem with more modern equipment?

Funtion of grounding is to save people from being electrocuted.

In a guitar amplifier it will prevent contact with a dangerous voltages via the strings or chassie if electrical insulation or any other component inside amp fails. It's a must have.

You can ground your house by burying a conductive spike into he earth about 6 feet under the ground and connect a cable from it to your mains outside the fuse or circuit breaker.

Of course this should only be done by a blind, deaf and dumb totally unqualified janitor to save money

Tube.tone,do you have any outlets that are grounded,for example in the kichen?Have you talked to your landlord about this?Could you through him get a licensed electrician to rewire your outlets so they will be grounded for a reduced price or do you have to find one yourself?You are absolutly right.It is a must have.A few well known guitarists and probably a lot more unknown ones have been killed by electricity.

You can also generate a ground in some cases by connecting a ground wire to a cold water pipe. I effectively grounded an outlet in an old apartment this way, i.e. ground testers on the outlet were satisfied that it was correctly wired and grounded.

Obviously if you can get your landlord to fix it that would be best. However I have always found that any landlord who hasn't fixed something on his own will not consider fixing it just because I asked for it.

Home wiring is not very complicated. However, make sure you know what you are doing before you attempt anything on your own. Countless books are available explaining home wiring and how to work on it safely.

I just move to Lisbon, Portugal. I´ll be living in this pre-grounding age apartment for only a few Months... fortunatly. I have looked inside and tested outlets with no luck.

So, I resolved the issue adapting the outlet, connecting the grounding with a thick copper wire to a water pipe. I have tested the grounding and it test fine.

Now, ... I wonder what might happen if my amp goes bad and send a few hundred volts via the pipes when the old lady next door is washing dishes?

:roll:

Now, ... I wonder what might happen if my amp goes bad and send a few hundred volts via the pipes when the old lady next door is washing dishes?

:roll:

Ideally, if it's grounding through the water pipes, the current will go straight to ground rather than back up into old ladies, but I'm not an electrician - and for good reason.

If you're in Portugal, should we be referring to it as "earth?" How is that handled there?

I would consult with a local electrician!

Tim

So, I resolved the issue adapting the outlet, connecting the grounding with a thick copper wire to a water pipe.

I handled this by connecting one end of the ground wire of standard interior house wiring to a cold water pipe with a clamp and the other to the ground prong of a grounded plug. I didn't connect the other two wires; that just didn't seem wise. Then I plugged my grounded plug into a 6-outlet strip which was in turn plugged to a wall outlet using one of the "cheater" adapters Ben mentioned. The other five outlets in the strip were thereby grounded with no need to open up the wall outlet. It worked for me for a couple of years.



Now, ... I wonder what might happen if my amp goes bad and send a few hundred volts via the pipes when the old lady next door is washing dishes?

This could make a great cartoon. :twisted:

I handled this by connecting one end of the ground wire of standard interior house wiring to a cold water pipe with a clamp and the other to the ground prong of a grounded plug.

This is what I have done I have connected the the "third prone" to the water pipe... conection tested perfectly! I mesured 220V from phase and neutral and 220v from phase to ground.

Ideally, if it's grounding through the water pipes, the current will go straight to ground rather than back up into old ladies, but I'm not an electrician - and for good reason.

If you're in Portugal, should we be referring to it as "earth?" How is that handled there?

In Portugal the Electrical circuits are usually connected to ground (earth) with a copper rod driven a few feet into the soil.

There really isn't a true substitute grounding method in old buildings using 2 wire romex. If the electrical was installed using metal conduit then it is probably adequately grounded (and has a 3 prong recepticle).
Grounding the 3rd prong to a water pipe is ok and probably ok as long as it doesn't turn into PVC just before it goes into the slab/dirt, otherwise you are depending on water to make a current carrying connection to earth.

PLEASE do not do the old trick of wiring the neutral side of the plug to the ground screw. This puts the whole potiental of every supposedly grounded surface (your strings) at the same electrical potiental as a grounded current carrying conductor. Terry Downs where are you, help me out here.

There are lots of way to fool those little outlet testers and you can bet that electricians know them all. There is no substitue for having a separate grounding conductor (except maybe conduit, which is really not even legally considered adequate anymore). You might have to break out some sheetrock and replace the wire.

There are no short cuts.

No Rodeo Tex.The only shortcut here is the one leading to the churchyard.

While safety is important, so is music. I have to say there is an (American I think) tendency to feel we should reduce all activities to those that could only be described as 100% safe by the most conservative of people. I don't buy into that. If I did, I would not work in NYC. I would never have owned a motorcycle. I wouldn't walk outdoors after 10pm... you can see where this direction lies.

A cold water pipe in a building that is too old to have grounded wiring was originally well-grounded. It went to earth exactly the way the grounding rods do. There is some remote chance that someone replaced part of that pipe with PVC since it was originally installed. Do you want to stop playing electric guitar just to be safe because of that remote chance?

If you want to be 100% guranteed safe from guitar accident electrocution you need to quit playing electric guitar completely. Otherwise you will have to use your head and evaluate the risk.

While safety is important, so is music. I have to say there is an (American I think) tendency to feel we should reduce all activities to those that could only be described as 100% safe by the most conservative of people. I don't buy into that. If I did, I would not work in NYC. I would never have owned a motorcycle. I wouldn't walk outdoors after 10pm... you can see where this direction lies.

A cold water pipe in a building that is too old to have grounded wiring was originally well-grounded. It went to earth exactly the way the grounding rods do. There is some remote chance that someone replaced part of that pipe with PVC since it was originally installed. Do you want to stop playing electric guitar just to be safe because of that remote chance?

If you want to be 100% guranteed safe from guitar accident electrocution you need to quit playing electric guitar completely. Otherwise you will have to use your head and evaluate the risk.

You are exactly right BlueJim if I understand your post to say that everything is a calculated risk.
I was giving the standard NEC response that I would do every day at work.
Stand on carpet when playing (not cement), turn on your amp and adjust the knobs with a plastic pen or ruler and don't touch a mic that is plugged into a different amp or PA and you'll likely be fine.
I've just had my **** knocked in the dirt so many times that I really don't care for it anymore.
But yes, we let our kids play football and we drive cars on the interstate. Why not play tube amps? All calculated risks.

You are exactly right BlueJim if I understand your post to say that everything is a calculated risk.
I was giving the standard NEC response that I would do every day at work.
Stand on carpet when playing (not cement), turn on your amp and adjust the knobs with a plastic pen or ruler and don't touch a mic that is plugged into a different amp or PA and you'll likely be fine.
I've just had my **** knocked in the dirt so many times that I really don't care for it anymore.
But yes, we let our kids play football and we drive cars on the interstate. Why not play tube amps? All calculated risks.


I like the way you think :wink:

I like the way you think :wink:

Yeah well we all learn, and sometimes the hard way.

I once licked the neutral bar in a live 480 volt panel on a bet, but that was years ago.

I don't do that stuff anymore, but that was only a calculated risk too.

(I encountered my first 'floating' neutral situation recently and have a brand new respect for neutral - it is not the same thing as ground even though it acts like it).

No BlueJim.tube.tones question was (to use an analogy) I´ve bought a motorcycle and the brakes don´t work.What should I do?I assume you wouldn´t tell him that "only the most conservative people" would consider that a problem? It is not a question of guitar playing vs.safety,rather guitar playing with some safety.The voltage in Lisbon being 220 V also means that he would get nearly twice the current through his body compared to if it happened in theU.S. Limbe

No BlueJim.tube.tones question was (to use an analogy) I´ve bought a motorcycle and the brakes don´t work.What should I do?I assume you wouldn´t tell him that "only the most conservative people" would consider that a problem? It is not a question of guitar playing vs.safety,rather guitar playing with some safety.The voltage in Lisbon being 220 V also means that he would get nearly twice the current through his body compared to if it happened in theU.S. Limbe

I offered one safe and effective way to ground an outlet when you don't want to or can't pay an electrician. I believe it's safe and I would guess that most people who know about electrical grounds and plumbing will agree.

So let's say instead he bought a Honda with bad brakes and I told him where he could find a junkyard that had old Hondas. So if he knows what's wrong and can wrench a bit he can probably fix the brakes without going to the local Honda dealer.

Safety is not digital. You aren't either safe or unsafe, you are simply safe to some degree. From my point of view, grounding your outlet this way is at least as safe as assuming the electrician who added grounded wiring to an old building did it correctly.

I once licked the neutral bar in a live 480 volt panel on a bet, but that was years ago.


I respectfully submit that you were a nutcase. :wink: Glad that you are still around to tell the tale.