So, stay away from Spragues?

I'm getting mixed messages on this topic. I'm reading Spragues aren't what they used to be and for this people are switching to F&Ts and Xicon.

Well, they aren't made in North Adams, Mass anymore, and that's enough for some people to assume they're crap. Anything that isn't done exactly the way it was 50 years ago is obviously inferior. Of course, that factory in North Adams turned into one of the biggest Superfund environmental cleanup sites ever established...

To more directly answer your question - no, Spragues are not what they were. The name has been bought and sold, and they're made elsewhere. If it's filter caps we're talking about, I've used the "cheap" JJ caps on two amps now, and both work great. They're capacitors, and they're not in the signal path. I wouldn't get to worried unless you hear that a specific brand is exploding and burning people's houses down - which is not something I've heard about any of the common brands used for this purpose.

IMO, the not-made-in-USA = lacks-magic-mojo philosophy should be evaluated with a highly critical eye (and ear).

Its just a capacitor

They still look pretty on a handwired board, but they take up a ton of space. Other cap brands are smaller.

As far as sound, they're not bad. I usually prefer cheaper, smaller electrolytics since quality can be similar (depending on brand and price).

No need to stay away from them - but no need to spend extra $$$ for them, either...

For a filter cap, the most important spec is ESR, lower is better, if you are not sure, it can be drived from the Tan spec or measured directly with an ESR meter. Not a bad thing to have, because the most common failure mode of an electrolitic cap is a rise in ESR, Not a change in capactance, that is why PS noise increases with bad caps.

There are other things like ESL that can add "mojo", but if ESR is not low enough to kill PS noise, who cares.

FWIW, I had a few bad 20/450 Spraques a few years ago... the internal connection to the neg lead (tear one open and you'll see the potential for failure) was faulty and caused some arcing. I wasn't the only one who recieved a bad batch, I remember Andy Fuches having the same issues with some. Anymore, I use F&T.

For a filter cap, the most important spec is ESR, lower is better, if you are not sure, it can be drived from the Tan spec or measured directly with an ESR meter. Not a bad thing to have, because the most common failure mode of an electrolitic cap is a rise in ESR, Not a change in capactance, that is why PS noise increases with bad caps.

There are other things like ESL that can add "mojo", but if ESR is not low enough to kill PS noise, who cares.
I know I'm going to kick myself for asking this, but what's ESR and ESL. In my line of work, ESL means English as a Second Language. I suppose ESR can mean Engrish as a Second Ranguage.

There was a pretty good thread over on the gear page with pictures of chopped open PS Caps.

Interestingly, those Spragues are only big on the outside.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=558461&highlight=sprague

http://home.mchsi.com/~my_mcintosh_240/20uf_sprague2.JPG

Their manufacture has been deemed 'obsolete' and when that happened their price went up almost 20%. They exist as an OEM replacement where size matching is required.

Great capacitor, but the inexpensive and smaller Xicons are spec'ed the same. The F&T's are the latest upgrade brand and are also quite good.

Ok, so Spragues are not particularly evil because F&T does the samething of having the case larger than the capacitor inside for whatever reason.

So, as with everything else, it comes down to what I personally want. Use the typical Spragues for "restoration," and use any other brand for functionality and value. Tone being subjective as always.

(The Spragues don't seem to be that much more expensive than the F&Ts though at AES. $1 more, at best.)

Spragues are not evil at all, they're GREAT capacitors. However, compare it with Xicons in price and size...I use the Xicons all the time in vintage restorations, builds, repairs, whatever and they are easily as dependable (knock on wood).

F&T is just about a 'boutique' cap as there is now, and are also great caps, and offer a 500V e-cap where the Xicons don't.

When it comes down to handling electrons, though, it's your choice in the end. as the electrons don't care about the name on the cannister. :smile:

Personally, unless someone really wants it, I don't spend the extra money on these e-caps. They can add up to a significant cost if you're planning several BF-style builds/repairs, for example, and outside of possibly some extra voltage rating, is not necessary.

F&T is just about a 'boutique' cap as there is now, and are also great caps, and offer a 500V e-cap where the Xicons don't.



I use a lot of FT's, boutique? naaah,, not really, they are average priced.
One thing I have encountered with FT's is an occasional bad cap.
Out of 100, 4 failed in the field, 6 bad right out of the box. Bad batch maybe?

I still use them, and really I see them as no better than some of the other Ecaps.

A cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap

... honest.

What on earth do you need a 600V cap for in a guitar producing millivolts?

Can you measure the difference between them? Yes, you can, you can do a frequency analysis in CoolEdit, I did and I couldn't.

I got a 5-way rotary in one guitar so I can use different values, or types. The value makes a difference, the type does not.

Why not use ceramic? The wire legs are too short and they're brittle, bits fall off if you bash them, so use mylar or poly-anything. You can get a selection of caps for a few shillings.

A cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap is a cap

... honest.

What on earth do you need a 600V cap for in a guitar producing millivolts?

Can you measure the difference between them? Yes, you can, you can do a frequency analysis in CoolEdit, I did and I couldn't.

I got a 5-way rotary in one guitar so I can use different values, or types. The value makes a difference, the type does not.

Why not use ceramic? The wire legs are too short and they're brittle, bits fall off if you bash them, so use mylar or poly-anything. You can get a selection of caps for a few shillings.



Why 600 volts? Because this thread is about elecrolytic caps in an amps' AC to DC filteration circuit... NOT about a guitar Tone control's capacitor.

Its cool, I've been needing my coffee today too. I'm in a fog :smile:

I know I'm going to kick myself for asking this, but what's ESR and ESL. In my line of work, ESL means English as a Second Language. I suppose ESR can mean Engrish as a Second Ranguage.

ESR is equivlent series resistance
ESL is equivlent series inductance

L is the usual notation for inductance as I was taken by current.

I do like your suggestion for ESR. Many aisian students?

ESR is equivlent series resistance
ESL is equivlent series inductance

L is the usual notation for inductance as I was taken by current.

I do like your suggestion for ESR. Many aisian students?



Here in Cali its a lot of Spanish speakers. ESL classes are in nearly every Junior High and High School from San Diego to way up north. If efnikbug is an ESL teacher, I've got nothing but sympathy for him - nearly my entire family is in education and ESL is rarely "succesful" (the DMV has multilingual drivers' tests). My girlfriend has her degree in English, my best friend is a High School teacher... I'd rather take 450 volts from an amp than teach kids in California schools.

I don't teach ESL but I teach an English class that has students who just exited from an ESL program and are in my "Sheltered" class before being main-streamed into a "Regular" class. I've got all kinds: Latinos of all kinds, Asians of all kinds, Israelis, Persians, etc.

I've been zapped once by my Tweed Champ homebrew. I dunno, man. You really can't compare the two kinds of sufferings. But yeah, with the same pay, SURE, I'd rather get zapped once a day than do what I have to do in the classroom everyday.

I haven't bought Spragues in about 5 years now. They're currently owned by Vishay, and they don't seem to understand the need for them any longer (tube amp manufacture/resto is a drop in the bucket for them, if that!).

I got a little nervous about it while recapping an old Fender, but that was because it wasn't my amp. In the end, I went with a mix of Nichicon and Xicon, and the amp has been used for gigs fairly regularly - no issues.

As far as cap cans for Marshall and the like, the JJ/F&T caps are working out fine.

I had some issues with Illinois caps a few years back, but believe it was due to operator error. :shock:

Another option are the "reissue" Mallory caps, which are canister types built in the U.S.A., by CE:

http://www.tubedepot.com/can.html

...but I have no experience with them, and it could just be domestic assembly. And if you need something other than cans, they won't work (unless you're scratchbuilding a chassis around them).

I haven't bought a single Sprague electro for cathode bypass caps in forever now, either. I'll open up recently serviced amps and see that the old timers are still putting them in there, but it's probably because old habits are hard to break.

If guys like Allen are using F&T, Nichicon, etc., Hammond suggests Illinois in place of overpriced Spragues, and Ceriatone kits use their own custom rebranded caps (and they've shipped a zillion of them), that says a lot.

If it's an issue of signal caps, there are so many options that it's ridiculous. And IME, I've tried Mal 150's vs. other types, and just cannot hear a difference, as long as the capacitance is pretty much the same on both caps. just MO, since lots of folks love SoZo's and all sorts of other stuff, but I've been using mainly the Mal's for most builds, and repair of older amps.

Edited to add: I see that Mission Amps is using Mal 150's and "high quality" filter caps as well, and their 5E3 kit is probably at the top of the list.