Anyone ever try polishing to apply lacquer?

I am nearly finished applying a Target Coatings Emtech EM6000 finish on the SX mini-Tele that I am rebuilding for my daughter. I am using the EM6000 water-based lacquer pigmented with Vivitone colors to a "blue genie" color. I started out trying to brush on the lacquer using a foam brush, but I felt like it was not leveling enough, and I kept finding problematic bubble holes in the finish, so I started trying to apply the stuff with a pad made of old bed sheet over some kind of poly synthetic cotton ball stuff, which evolved to polishing in each coat of lacquer until the pad stopped sliding easily. Several discoveries from this:


Polishing the lacquer on like this smoothes it out very well but as it continues to set up it flattens out even more.

It eliminates runs, drips, and bubbles. The surface is almost dry at the point you quit polishing so there is very limited tackiness to catch dust in the drying lacquer.

I'm not positive, but it seems like the polishing process may level out the preceding coats at part of the burn in from one coat to the next.

From what I have read, I think this approach is very forgiving about temperature and humidity compared to spraying. I suspect that cool temperatures may help because it slows the curing of the lacquer, allowing it to flatten more, which I have read on the Target Coatings forum will continue for several hours after application.

Because I evolved this technique over an attempt at brushing, I'm not sure it would work directly on sealed wood- it may need the underlying coat of lacquer to stick to. At this point I'm not sure whether I should try to even burnish the finish with very fine steel wool or go directly to 3M Finesse-it. Although this may sound like french polishing, I think I was more inspired by the process for wiping on Tru-oil.

Very intriguing, thanks for posting these new approaches.

I'm fairly certain that is the future, as eventually acetone and alcohol based lacquers will be forced out as the planet gets more crowded.

Took me a moment to realize you meant leveling when you chose the term "flattening". I should have known the sheen would remain.

Hello you two :)

930vet, could this technique/these products be used on top of a lightly sanded down polyester finish, so as to go from a natural see-through finish (Thinline 72) to a red see-through one?

It sounds like a lacquer french polish version.
It would probably take longer to build up layers I suspect.

Bill

Thanks, Bill :)
It would probably take longer to build up layers I suspect.
But would it take less time to cure?
I'd rather have to wait 24 hours between layers and have a fast curing time (if that's the case) than 1 month to cure.

Just to make sure I understand the term: "curing" is the time it takes before you can re-assemble the guitar and start playing it, right? :)

Its been called padding lacquer. Water based finishes are known to bubble, foam actually. Its hard to pad colored finishes. Difficult to get even color.
You can pad nitro as well if its thinned and a retarder added. I believe its actually sold prepared as well.
You can pad over most finishes, its a matter of mechanical adhesion. Even poly if it was scuffed up.
I have avoided water based finishes in the past cause I didn't like the look, these days I might consider them for health reasons. No more nitro headaches for me !

could this technique/these products be used on top of a lightly sanded down polyester finish, so as to go from a natural see-through finish (Thinline 72) to a red see-through one?

I think it could be, using tinted lacquer instead of pigmented (more or less opaque). My approach would be sand with 400 grit, put on a couple of layers with a foam pad, sand again with 400, and then start using the pad. But test first on a test panel, because I haven't done it. But this brings up a question that I have: how to put a clear coat over the lacquer and get good adhesion; I feel like the lacquer needs to be polished before I put on clear, to keep the shine, but then the clear may not adhere properly.

It sounds like a lacquer french polish version.
It would probably take longer to build up layers I suspect.

Yeah, I read in a a couple of places that french polish was also a lacquering technique, even though it seems to be mostly associated now with shellac. And I think you are right about how long it takes to build up layers; the flip side is that you can almost go from one side of the body, down the sides, do the other side and then start over, although I usually waited the two hours recommended for EM6000. With no clean up to speak of compared to cleaning a spray rig and waiting on the right weather, I think you might come out ahead with this approach.

But would it take less time to cure?
I'd rather have to wait 24 hours between layers and have a fast curing time (if that's the case) than 1 month to cure.

The Target Coatings forum says wait 100 hours before final polishing.

Its been called padding lacquer. Water based finishes are known to bubble, foam actually. Its hard to pad colored finishes. Difficult to get even color.

Right, this solves the foaming problem because you keep polishing until the lacquer has set past that point. And I didn't really note a problem with even color because the polishing process seemed to even it out. My only color problems came from blemishes where I had scraped some runs before I started padding on the lacquer, and I have for the most part been able to cover them up. This is despite the fact that I may have over-pigmented the lacquer and have to keep stirring it up as I use it.

BTW, I thinned the lacquer about 25% with a combination of water and retarder.

Great alternative to finishing.

I am using Zinssers shellac as sealer and leveling and rattle cans in NC for my finish, only did one so far.
Since I have limited space I am also looking at the Target Coatings Emtech EM6000 finish for finishes.

Be sure to post pics.

Bill

Thank you all for the comprehensive replies. :)

Another big vote for Target finishes. The EM6000, like USL before it, has 100% burn-in no matter how long the finish has cured. You can repair it invisibly just like nitro. The clarity of the finish matches nitro, and the durability is far superior. Once you've rinsed out a spray gun with soapy water instead of acetone, you never want to go back.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/bobv_photo/12_Finished_1.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/bobv_photo/18_Fraternal_Twins.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/bobv_photo/IMG_2594.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/bobv_photo/04_Sealed.jpg

Vizcaster,
Those are amazing looking teles, wonderful finish as well.
All water based sprayed Nitro on I take it?

Bill

Thanks much.

Water based, yes, but there's no "nitro" involved. The Target coatings are either polyester or acrylic or hybrid alkyd coatings. Their current favorite for guitars is called Emtech (emulsion technology) EM6000, it used to be called Production Spray Lacquer, and it's an upgrade from Oxford Ultima Spray Lacquer. It's no secret that Stewart MacDonald has been selling privately labeled versions of Target's products for several years now.

I've been playing around with water based coatings ever since Minwax came out with Polycrylic. Since then the technology has come a long, long way and the stuff is no longer blue or hazy. I've tried Minwax, Behlen's, Crystalac, and various Target products and I'm hooked on the Target lineup. Go to targetcoatings.com and they have a forum where a lot of guitar makers - weekenders like me and professionals also - share their stuff. Still waiting for somebody to post a butterscotch blonde recipe...

For people who don't know much about woodfinishes I just say it's "lacquer." Or maybe "a special environmentally friendly water-based lacquer." I usually don't get into the acrylic vs. polyester thing. By the way Target was tapped to provide the finish for the Olympic skating arena because their products are free of hazardous air polluting solvents (HAPS). EM6000 can be recoated in half an hour and buffed in 100 hours, which certainly rivals nitrocellulose in terms of production times. It's also capable of 100% burn-in, which means the new coat melts into the old coat (like nitro) so even years down the road you can still do an invisible touch up repair.

So here is a silly question,

Ive heard it somewhere or maybe read it that nitro allows the wood to breathe, would the acrylic do the same thing, or would the polymers block that?

Bill

Can't help you. I chuckle when a salesman tries to tell me the thin skin nitro lets the wood "breathe." It's dead. Granted, there are people who are convinced that thicker finishes sound worse somehow, and I have no intention of arguing with them.

Nitro has resins in it that cure into solids. Acrylic or polyester or polyurethane or shellac or alkyd or phenolic or polycarbonate, all the same deal. If it wasn't solid it wouldn't be a finish, would it? The polymers are supposed to slow the exchange of moisture so the wood expansion and contraction is mitigated. And coat the wood to protect it from abrasion. And maybe even look nice.

I wonder if people really mean that the vibrations from the strings are nullified by a heavy plastic coat on the wood as apposed to a more organic finish such as nitro or shellac. I know I can feel my tele vibrate when I play in a lower register and I suspect the more gunk you put on the wood the more it deadens.

Just my thought.

Bill

I wonder if people really mean that the vibrations from the strings are nullified by a heavy plastic coat on the wood as apposed to a more organic finish such as nitro or shellac. I know I can feel my tele vibrate when I play in a lower register and I suspect the more gunk you put on the wood the more it deadens.

Just my thought.

Bill

There was someone on this forum whose guitar became microphonic after he stripped the poly off of the body, so it seems like that might be some anecdotal evidence for what you're saying. That doesn't mean that EM6000 is a thick finish like poly, though; I don't think it is, but I guess anything will build up if you put on enough of it. I think my pseudo-french polishing approach puts it on pretty thin- I had some trouble covering a couple of sand-through spots, although I did eventually get them. On their forum there is mention in a couple of places about the need for total grain filling to keep the lacquer from shrinking into the grain as it cures, which seems like it might have potential for creating an aged-looking finish.

930vet, would you mind posting a couple of photos of the finish result?

930vet, would you mind posting a couple of photos of the finish result?

I'll see; my only camera now is my blackberry and I took some photos, but they were too grainy to tell anything at all about the quality of the finish. I'm going to try again.

I still have some work to do. I'm not sure about polishing and clearcoat- do I polish and then clear coat, and will clear adhere to a polished finish? Or, does it need 600 sanding before clear coating, which seems like it will dull the finish underneath the clear? I'm hoping to get some answers on the Target forum.

I suspect the more gunk you put on the wood the more it deadens.

No argument at all. I just don't buy into any hysteria about the word "plastic." After all, "organic," by definition, means hydrocarbons even though there's some crunchy connotation.