How Do You Play Over Chords?

Howdy Folks,

I've never been as involved in a forum as this one; and I've only been a member a few days!

I have a question that might sound rather simple (with a brief preface). When I played in rock bands in high school, I learned the minor pentatonic scale. Then I learned the major scale and how to play one scale in several positions.

Now that I'm trying to learn country, I hear a lot about playing over chords, rather than a particular scale; and I hear about playing the major pentatonic with extra notes being accomplished through bend techniques, a kind of "in between."

So, any suggestions for "playing over chords" in several positions on the neck? Example licks?

I have a print out of the guitar neck that I copy and circle the notes in scales and such. Would such a practice be helpful for playing over chords? And what notes would I circle?

Thanks,
Tyler

p.s. I started a thread about Doug Seven's videos, asking if they were helpful. Many posted and said I should get them. Does he help with some of these things?

Well, we don’t play scales here, anymore. We used to. To learn to play Country, your first choice is to be born into a family of Country musicians. You hear Uncle Billy play the b**jo on the front porch while you take your mother’s milk. At age four, you get a tater bug mandolin. At first, you just play an open string or two, and later, learn how to put down a finger here and there. And so on. Failing that, you sit under a tree and watch Town Hall Party videos on YouTube until you live and breath the music, and spring from Joe Maphis’ arms fully loined.

But as aid to finding those melodies you hear in the your head, you are permitted to learn a scale or two. And there really different ways to come at this, but you are on the right track. The major pentatonic sound is a big part of the Country melodies you will hear in your head after your forty years in the wilderness, played over each chord change, ie C major pent over C chord, F major pent over F chord, etc. Either add the b7 to each of those, plus b3s where desired, or, as you see recommended here and there, try the mixolydian scale, aka dominant scale (not mode - don’t ever call it a mode) of the same root as the chord, ie C mixo over C chord, etc., b3s as desired. The mixo/dominant scale is the same as the major scale, but has a b7, ie C mixo has Bb instead of B natural. Most melodies are written in the major scale, so learning the melody and working off of that with whatever blue notes, b7, b3 or whatever sounds good to you is another major practice.

For the major pentatonic sound, listen to Bob Wills playing the fiddle on Stay All Night:

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For major penta plus blue notes, or mixo with blue notes, listen to some versions of the head to Milk Cow Blues, like this one:

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Deep subject. From the organizational and academic standpoint, a good place to start is to to link up your major scales and major pentatonics with corresponding chord shapes of C, A, G, E, and D. Transcribe stuff that you dig, screw around, get curious. After that, it's a bit War and Peace... You can take cues from folks ranging from Bob Wills to Floyd Cramer to Jimi Hendrix to Jimmy Page. Trust me, all this stuff is related. Above all else, become a well listened individual.

When I was younger, I wish someone had told me what I will tell you. Learn your chord spellings, then find a transcription of a solo. Go through every note and circle the ones that are chord tones (a chord tone is a melody note that is also a member of the chord being played). Noticed how the roots, 3rds, 5ths are used and what beats and subdivisions of the beats they fall on.

Well, we don’t play scales here, anymore. We used to. To learn to play Country, your first choice is to be born into a family of Country musicians. You hear Uncle Billy play the b**jo on the front porch while you take your mother’s milk. At age four, you get a tater bug mandolin. At first, you just play an open string or two, and later, learn how to put down a finger here and there. And so on. Failing that, you sit under a tree and watch Town Hall Party videos on YouTube until you live and breath the music, and spring from Joe Maphis’ arms fully loined....


+1.



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Everyone has a different take on this subject and they're all correct.
Simply put, learn a little country riff to play over an A chord. Get it down real well, and then slide it up five frets. Now you're playing the same riff, but over a D chord. Move it up two more frets and you're playing over an E chord.
Next, put together a backing track with that A-D-E (I-IV-V) progression and play that riff over it, changing your position along with the chord changes. That's a very simplified version, but it may help to get you started.

But remember, you don't always have to play over chords to sound good.

Everyone has a different take on this subject and they're all correct.
Simply put, learn a little country riff to play over an A chord. Get it down real well, and then slide it up five frets. Now you're playing the same riff, but over a D chord. Move it up two more frets and you're playing over an E chord.
Next, put together a backing track with that A-D-E (I-IV-V) progression and play that riff over it, changing your position along with the chord changes. That's a very simplified version, but it may help to get you started.

But remember, you don't always have to play over chords to sound good.

Yup, that's how I started. One lick at a time, over some nice and slow George Jones tunes.

Listen to the other instruments too. Fiddles, banjos, harmonica, pedal steel -even accordion. A big part of country picking is swiping licks from other instruments! :wink:

When I played in rock bands in high school, I learned the minor pentatonic scale.

When you play the minor pent scale, you actually ARE playing over a chord. For example, playing the A minor pent scale is playing over the A minor chord at the 5th fret. Playing the A major pent (3 frets down from A minor pent) is playing over the A major chord at the second fret.

Just learn the other chord inversion positions of A...be able to transpose to other keys...and you are good to go. May I suggest a book on the CAGED guitar system.

There are many ways to approach this. Here's one that may help you get going:


Skeleton Melody

1. Write out some Chord Changes.

I'll use a 4 Measure (Bar) Example; G D Em C

Make a recording of 3 to 5 Minutes of just this progression. Use a simple Strumming Rhythm Pattern. Nothing too radical, as this is all about the beginning Improvisations. Maybe a simple 1/4 Note or 1/8 Note Strum. (See the Link I added below for another option.)

2. Let's build the Skeleton.

Take the Notes from the Chords you're playing over, and write them out.

G = G B D
D = D F# A
Em = E G B
C = C E G

Take the Root of each Chord, and write it in as a 1/4 Note on Beat 1 of each Measure.

3. Add more Notes to "Flesh Out" the Skeleton.

On each Beat 3, add the 5th. of the corresponding Chord.


Now you have a good Skeleton to use as a "Guide" to build some Lines around.

Just fill in between the Skeleton Notes with Notes from the Scales and your Vocabulary of Licks and Phrases.

4. Repeat with the other Chord Tones as your Skeleton Notes. Also, with random Notes from the G Major Scale. You will probably find that different Notes will yield different feels and differnt pathways.


-|-|-------|------|------|------|-|-------------------------------------------
-|-|-------|------|------|------|-|-------------------------------------------
-|-|-------|------|------|------|-|-------------------------------------------
-|-|-------|-0----|-2----|------|-|-------------------------------------------
-|-|-------|------|------|-3----|-|-------------------------------------------
-|-|-3-----|------|------|------|-|-------------------------------------------
G.......D.......Em....C

-|-|----------|---------|---------|---------|-|-------------------------------
-|-|----------|---------|---------|---------|-|-------------------------------
-|-|----------|---------|---------|-----0---|-|-------------------------------
-|-|-----0----|-0-------|-2-------|---------|-|-------------------------------
-|-|----------|-----0---|-----2---|-3-------|-|-------------------------------
-|-|-3--------|---------|---------|---------|-|-------------------------------
G............D.......Em.........C

-|-|---------|---------|-0-------|-----3---|-|--------------------------------
-|-|-----3---|---------|-----0---|-1-------|-|--------------------------------
-|-|-0-------|-----2---|---------|---------|-|--------------------------------
-|-|---------|-0-------|---------|---------|-|--------------------------------
-|-|---------|---------|---------|---------|-|--------------------------------
-|-|---------|---------|---------|---------|-|--------------------------------
G..........D.........Em........C

Like above.

First Line = Roots on Beat 1.

Second Line = Roots on Beat 1, and 5ths. on Beat 3.

Third Line = Same as Line 2, but in a higher register (Octave).

*Of course, these are only to help get you started. But, you can (and should!) easily change things around;

Try other Chord Tones in place of the Roots and 5ths.

Try filling in larger spaces with your Phrases, Licks and Lines.

Hope this helps you to get going.



Also, here's some good stuff to work with:

http://www.jamstudio.com/Studio/index.htm

Grizzard, that's one of the best lessons I think I've ever had.

I mean, I've had about four lessons total, but that's still one of the best.

Party on.

Budda, you have it just right. I wish I knew about this when I started out.

When I was younger, I wish someone had told me what I will tell you. Learn your chord spellings, then find a transcription of a solo. Go through every note and circle the ones that are chord tones (a chord tone is a melody note that is also a member of the chord being played). Noticed how the roots, 3rds, Th's are used and what beats and subdivisions of the beats they fall on.

Wow. I don't think I've ever heard anyone put it so succinctly.
.....in a nutshell, as it were.

It's a BIG subject, but the above tips are all great...

You will often hear the term Target notes and often these will be chord tones...

To be effective you need to be "thinking" both in terms of scale (some times referred to as thinking linearly, or along a scale) and in terms of the harmony or chords (horizontally, or tones stacked upon one another as in a chord) at the same time.

Take A major...

A B C# D E F# G# A

I've tried to illustrate the triads of the chords A (A,C#,E) D (D,F#,A) and E (E,G#,B)...so say in a three chord song you would at least want to be aware when you are playing a note that it is both a part of a scale and a chord at any given time...

You may wish to "target" the tones of a given chord playing at the time, especially in country music...play them on the stronger beats or primarily those tones for instance. Out line the chords and play lines that suggest not only a good melody (linear) but imply the harmony also (horizontal).

...

Skipping ahead...if you have a feel for the minor pentatonic blues sounds, you can fill in the "gaps" for a more sophisticated note choice by combining the two...major and minor (there are various way you can approach this of course)...

A B . C# D E . F# .. G# A
A B C ... D E F ... G .... A

So, you are really only adding the notes C, F and G.

If you use the "harmony thing" you will see that these are...

C = blue min3rd on an A chord, the dom7th on a D chord.
F = min3rd of D chord (less commonly used)
G = min3rd of E chord, dom7th of A chord, sus4 of D chord
D = dom7 of E chord (already in the scale)

If you listen enough and play these things, you might get a feel for what I call 'melodic pull'...a tendency for some of these notes to pull towards the "key. So...C in particular will feel a pull towards C# on an A chord, on a D7 chord if feels more at home, certainly more so than C# which would clash with both C and D in a D7 chord.

...

You can even go further of course...if you played "blues'n'rock" things you may have got a feel for other blue notes like the b5, Eb in this key...equally usable in major or minor. If you play the old, "minor pentatonic 3 frets back" approach (so F# min-P in the key of A) you might notice that the "pattern" with the b5 in minor, the b5 is the blue note C in F#, or A's min3rd.

...

Skipping way ahead, using a more extended chord theory, even if it isn't played in the song...you can see these notes, and in fact any note, as extensions of chords.

So, if you are on the D chord, the note E may be heard as a 9th, as the note B is to A chord, or the note F# to the E chord. All of which could be 'target tones' with a more sophisticated vocabulary if you are aware of them and their resolutions (melodic pull) and their relation to the harmony.

Eventually, you may swing the other way to the jazzier side of things (though not necessarily a jazz concept) where many see notes as being derived largely from the extended harmony and arpeggios of the chord at a given time and an overarching scale or key may be of secondary importance.

...

But to start with, target the chord tones. One way to get a good feel for good melody is to look at the actual melodies of songs and see how they relate scale tones to chord tones...most great melodies are going to be strong both "linearly" and "horizontally" and give you a fairly clear indication of the kind of tones to target through a chord progression...

...

BIG subject though of course, one step at a time :wink:

tsa, there is a simple answer to your question. In any style of music, you play well over chords by deciding which notes sound right over the duration of the chord, and to a lesser extent, leading up to the chord. It's that elementary.
How do you decide what sounds good? If you listen to a LOT of music in the style you wish to pursue, you get a mental catalog of acceptable notes ... notes that you get used to hearing in a similar context over and over. Also, there's a benefit of hearing signature licks of the genre ... blues and country are genres that lean heavily on recognizable riffs. As you listen to your favorite tunes and figure out what notes sound right over the chords, you're absorbing those licks and training your ear.
That's how the good players you hear on records got good.

Thanks so much for the help everyone!

Simply put, learn a little country riff to play over an A chord. Get it down real well, and then slide it up five frets. Now you're playing the same riff, but over a D chord. Move it up two more frets and you're playing over an E chord.
Next, put together a backing track with that A-D-E (I-IV-V) progression and play that riff over it, changing your position along with the chord changes. That's a very simplified version, but it may help to get you started.

I think your 'linear' approach is the best first step.

The next logical step is to find all the chord tones (through scales, arps, etc.) in one basic area of the fretboard - the opposite of the linear approach. I'd say start by getting comfortable with I to IV chord moves. Obviously for country, major and dominant chords are probably the way to start, but it's a good idea to work minor i-iv cadences as well.

Record (or loop) a I-IV chord cadence. Try it with two measures per chord and also with one measure per chord. Locate the scales (including pentatonics) and arpeggios that fit the two chords in one basic area of the fingerboard (no shifts up the neck). Relentlessly drill the two chords with straight eighths or sixteenths in military, metronome-like fashion*, making sure to be very aware of the downbeat of the new chord when it arrives. Ascend the I, descend the IV, and vice-versa. The key to the success of this exercise is that when the new chord arrives, the nearest available note (either a half step or whole step away from the previous note, for scales; larger interval leaps for arpeggios) - that fits the chord - should be chosen. Human tendency is to start playing over each new chord from the nearest available root note, but that totally defeats the purpose of the exercise. You can expound on the exercise in any way you'd like, such as trying to land on the 3rd for the downbeat of each new chord.

Relentlessly drill the two chords with straight eighths or sixteenths in military, metronome-like fashion*

Obviously, this does not begin to address the slippery nuances and chicken grease of country music (bends, hammers, pulls, phrasing, signature licks, etc.) - but what it does quite effectively accomplish over time is to make the player vastly more aware of target tones, as well as augment the linear approach.

But remember, you don't always have to play over chords to sound good.

Quite true.

I normally stay away from these discussions...but what the heck, I'm feeling ornery this morning.
The idea of "playing over the chords" first makes me ask "Playing WHAT over the chords"?
I approach it personally with the idea of the song in mind. The melody. Not just a bunch of scales and riffs that fit generically over chord positions. That stuff is way secondary.
You say you know major scales in a few positions, then

step one: Pick a song. For starters pick something with a strong melody. Can you whistle it? If so you can play it on the guitar, just stick to it, use your major scale, maybe major pentatonic (I tend think of both as one scale, or what some call "The Country Composite Scale").
Step two: (really, probably before step one, or at the same time) Learn the chord progression for that song. Find chord inversions.Find the chords in diff positions, try 'em with the song in mind.
step three: Play the chords, throw in some melody notes around the chords. Can you hear the melody? Is what you are playing recognizable a little as the song you picked? Good! Keep at it.
step four: Throw in partial chords, maybe slide into the melody, use a a little bend here and there, a hammer on, maybe a little chromatic run between melody notes. Keep the idea of the chord progression learned in step two. Is what you are playing still recognizable? Can you still find the melody? Good!

that's it. You are playing over the chords...or here's a new way to look at it: "playing a Song"...
What follows is my opinion read at your own risk:
Wayyyyyy to many "country" players just know riffs...not songs. (Same goes for a lot of "blues" players). They come at it trying to "solo" over a chord progression, or "backing track" that really is just generic. (Like a twelve bar blues progression) and throw riffs at it. Sometimes quite well, and with skill.
But, can they play a song?
I was always taught that if you can't hear the melody, then you aren't playing it right. Does that mean there's no room for improv or an off the cuff solo break with feeling? NO! Just keep in mind the melody, even at those times when you are improving and getting way out there, or believe me the non-musicians in the audience will get bored quick no matter what kind of fretboard pyrotechnics you can pull off. If you can do both, play with fretboard acrobatics AND keep it melodically interesting (Like Redd V. for example! Who is a master at it!) Then you are approaching greatness and that is a goal to pursue.
But for now:
Go back and listen to a lot of country, a lot of classic stuff, stuff that stood the test of time, from the 40's up through the 70's. Hear a lot of flashy chicken' pickin? Yeah some. occasionally..but..not a lot.
Hear a lot of melodic phrases? ummm, yep....A lot of fills that mirror or answer the melody? Oh, yeah.

What I'm saying is in a nutshell: Start with asking how to solo/fill/play a PARTICULAR country song. Not how to solo over a "progression".

-
rant off.

step one[/B]: Pick a song. For starters pick something with a strong melody. Can you whistle it? If so you can play it on the guitar, just stick to it, use your major scale, maybe major pentatonic (I tend think of both as one scale, or what some call "The Country Composite Scale").



I'd sing the parts ... if you put in enough time to learn several songs, you're liable to wear out your whistler.

play a lot of records (I think they call 'em CDs or MP3s these days) and try to play along.

Learn the basic cowboy chords and how you are able to play them at different positions along the neck. (I think this might be part of the CAGED concept?)

when you have an idea about how to play the chords up and down and around the neck, try playing the notes from the chords individually, and looking for the notes that fit nice between the notes in the chord.

try using a slow-down program (do a search here, we have discussed these many times); they are truly useful, especially for guys like me who are slow learners.

Learn theory, note-reading, etc. if you can, and if you are interested in it and curious. If it isn't attractive to you, forget it and just play as much as you can.

One more thing: if you have trouble learning how to play exactly what's on the record - play something else! Play something that you can play and that sounds good right there.

What I'm saying is in a nutshell: Start with asking how to solo/fill/play a PARTICULAR country song. Not how to solo over a "progression".

that's pretty good advice; you will see that the various progressions come back time and again. Certainly in country, blues, and rock'n'roll the same progressions come up over and over again - that's partly why these styles are popular. Every trick you learn while working on ONE song you will be able to use again and again.

I normally stay away from these discussions...but what the heck, I'm feeling ornery this morning.

rant off.

Hahaha...you make some very good points that I tend to agree with. There is of course the idea of a solo or fills as being an "song within a song"...it is after all often reffered to as a "lead break"...or in answer to the lyrical and melodic feel of a song or tune.

I agree also that a lot of people just throw "licks" at things in any genre, in part though some licks are idiomatic...that's part of the "style", but that doesn't mean those licks can't explore a melody while still being flash...or at least have some relevance to the song. Got a song about a train, sure throw in a "train whistle lick"...hahaha

So, in addition to your "steps" which I entirely agree with, I'd also encourage people to be able to make up their own melodies that suit a progression and use the same processes of developing it that you describe.

When listening to great solos...or solos that really suit a song, pay close attention to how they are working, perhaps look for the underlying melody behind the flash licks.

Listen to the music you love.
Use your ears.
Its all about "Rhythm and Risk".

Budda, you have it just right. I wish I knew about this when I started out.

Thanks!

Coming from someone like you who has shared so much excellent advice, I take that as a high compliment.

:cool:

Picking up from Budda's idea of creating a skeletal melody, think about elaborating. For example:

1. Play with common tones. If your chords are C F, then hold the note C over both bars. better yet, make it rhythmic. Play a skeletal tone on the C chord, then on beat 4 play the note C. On beat 1 of the F chord, keep holding down C. Then on beat 2, play another target note or chord tone. This way your melody isn't boxed in by the chord changes as much.

2. Play with passing tones. In a chord progression of C to Em, play the note G on beat 4 of the C chord. On the & of beat 4 play the note A. On beat 1 of the Em chord, play the note B. The notes G and B are chord tones relative to the chords that are being played. The note A is a passing tone between the notes G and B. When you hit the B, you have resolved the dissonance created by the passing tone, A.

3. About playing melodically, an important consideration is to recognize how often a singer will repeat a note in a melody. They do that a lot. Therefore, if you want to play melodically, learn how to repeat notes. It can be very hard to do.