teaching groups: the perfect nightmare for me

hi guys, i give lessons to a group of 6 schoolteachers. what a nightmare! they don´t keep the slightest discipline, make tons of noise and are totally pxxxxed off when you ask them to be quiet and listen. when that is over (5 more sessions), i will go back to one-on-one instructions. i just can´t believe that. now i feel better, thanks....
eddie

now i feel better, thanks...You're most welcome. Glad you feel better. That's what we're here for! :cool:

It takes a certain kind of personality to teach classes. Just as a good performer doesn't always equal a good teacher, a good private teacher doesn't always equal a good class teacher, and vis-versa.

I'm sure most people can remember at least one teacher from school who was cool one-on-one, but get 'em in front of a class, and they became a tyrant. Seems to happen more often with coaches and gym teachers. They keep blowing that whistle... lol

Class dynamics are interesting. Ever notice how, after the first couple of classes, people tend to sit in the same location every time? I do it too, and have no idea why.

On Mondays and Wednesdays, I teach hour-long private composition lessons, followed by an hour and a half class in electronic music composition. Except for one, all of the students are the same. It has taken me a long time to be able to do both. Because I'm a little uncomfortable in front of a group, I cover for that by being Mr. Funny. But being Mr. Funny can take away the focus on the material and on, you guessed it, Mr. Funny. I still haven't balanced everything.

Ever notice how, after the first couple of classes, people tend to sit in the same location every time? I do it too, and have no idea why.

Yes. humans are very trainable. In fact, like your example shows, we will even train ourselves without any instruction or encouragement from others. :lol: Yes indeed .....we're sooooo much more intelligent than other lifeforms.:lol: Oh, and just so you don't get the wrong idea about me, I do exactly the same thing as well. Good human! Sit! Sit! Good boy. :lol:

Set some ground rules.

If they are genuinely interested they will follow them. When you say 'listen', they should listen. If you ask for quiet, they should act accordingly.

ESPECIALLY if they're teachers. They oughtta' know better!

discipline- training that produces orderliness obedience self- control order conduct


bw

a simple stern

"class- order"

can work wonders

You're most welcome. Glad you feel better. That's what we're here for! :cool:

It takes a certain kind of personality to teach classes. Just as a good performer doesn't always equal a good teacher, a good private teacher doesn't always equal a good class teacher, and vis-versa.

I'm sure most people can remember at least one teacher from school who was cool one-on-one, but get 'em in front of a class, and they became a tyrant. Seems to happen more often with coaches and gym teachers. They keep blowing that whistle... lol

Class dynamics are interesting. Ever notice how, after the first couple of classes, people tend to sit in the same location every time? I do it too, and have no idea why.

Ah - herd dynamics at work. The physical orientation of oneself to the pack leader - if you are up for a little confrontation or attention you place yourself up front -if you are trying to hide or you are one of those 'covert saboteurs' you head up the back - and all the in between 'stances' - far away but with direct vision is a weird one - people who try and engage but with plenty of distance.

I absolutely loved teaching classroom during my stint at AIM here in town. The class was comprised of folks that were dead serious about learning, and they'd paid good money to attend. Plus, they knew how to tune their guitars.

Against my better judgement, I got talked into taking on a twelve week summer group class (6-8) for teenagers in 2007. I signed on because it paid well. Summer is notoriously spotty for independent contractor music teachers, and I usually have to spam and hustle gigs to make up the deficit, so the scenario provided a bit of financial cushion. It was Romper Room from jumpstreet. The kids arrived with absolutely horrible instruments that were tuned to several varieties of open R# Demented Hungarian. After about ten minutes of tuning these horrible instruments, it was time to get down to business. Several kids had not purchased the prerequisite book, and most didn't have picks (considerations that were clearly stipulated in advance... I think Soccer Mom was mostly looking to dump junior off for a half hour or so...). Anyway, we made do with a couple of books, and I had some spare picks. The room was too small, so the kids kept bonking headstocks. One kid was absolutely fascinated with the tuning pegs on his guitar, and popped two strings in short order. One testosterone-fueled kid was hopelessly enamored with a young lady in attendance, and he shamelessly hit on her until she was clearly agitated. Over the next several weeks, I determined that there were exactly two courses of action: pace the class toward the brighter kids, or pace the class toward the slower kids. Either way, half of the class loses. Never again, lesson learned.

Sound like I'm picking on kids, but other than chuckling about the Romper Room antics, it would be little different with entry level adults in a similar scenario. I'm sure it's at least a little bit different with the logistics and format of a group piano class. As for entry level group guitar classes, it's a crapshoot at best and an exercise in futility at worst. A teacher can put forth their very best efforts, accomplish very little, and take the money and run if the conscience allows, but ultimately, the students are in an extremely compromised situation, and few take anything of real value away from the experience. The summer class that I taught was designed to promote long term lesson plans after the course. Exactly zero kids signed on. If I'm a diplomat, I can fault myself and ponder what it takes to make it work. If I'm a realist, I can see that the situation is screwed right out of the gate despite the very best of efforts. In my considered opinion, the only approach that's actually effective with entry level guitar students is one-on-one instruction.

This thread makes me feel guilty about banging away on 5th chords hacking Nirvana songs in high school guitar class.

At least I had a nice sounding old acoustic, and it stayed in tune well. :razz:

I signed on because it paid well.

In my considered opinion, the only approach that's actually effective with entry level guitar students is one-on-one instruction.

he tim, one more time you tell it like it is. are we the long lost twin brothers?

thanks, mate. i will survive 5 more weeks and then i am outta there.
eddie

In my considered opinion, the only approach that's actually effective with entry level guitar students is one-on-one instruction.
I'll probably get flamed for saying this here, but I disagree with this part of Tim's post. Class learning is a proven and effective method for disseminating information. It works for math, science, art, history, and yes, it works for guitar too.

Teaching guitar presents some unique challenges in a group environment, but it is most definitely NOT some mystical "special" subject that can only be taught privately.

Classes tend to be less expensive than private lessons, so especially at the beginner level, a group guitar class can be a good way for students to learn the basics, i.e., tuning, posture, fretting, picking, styles and types of guitars, etc. This allows the student to make a more informed decision if/when they decide to take to the next level.

I have been teaching privately for 25 years. Basically I just got lucky and fell into it. Since 2004, I have been teaching beginning guitar classes at a local college too. Average size of my beginning classes is around 20 students, and the age ranges from 13 to 83, with most students in the twenty to thirty-something age demographic. I teach five sections of that class every year.

Typically I'll get 2 or 3 students per class who continue in my intermediate classes or private lessons.

I also helped establish a successful summer arts program for kids 8-12 years old. Along with jewelry making, pottery, drawing, painting, dance, theater, creative writing, and singing, the guitar classes have consistently been one of the most popular parts of the curriculum. Teaching kids is generally more work than teaching adults, but the upside is that kids generally have a lot more potential than adults too.

I hope I'm not tooting my own horn too loudly here, but since very few of you actually know me, I'm hoping to show that I at least have a clue what I'm talking about...

I agree that one-on-one learning is generally more effective than class learning, but the same is true for other subjects. You want to ace that math exam? Hire a private math tutor. However, many people can and will ace that math exam just by taking regular math classes.

Just because you don't like teaching guitar classes does not mean that class learning is ineffective and/or inappropriate for the guitar. It simply means that it is not right for you. :idea:

Hang in there Eddie, hope you can find something in your class that will make it worth more than a little money in your pocket and a waste of time.

Have you tried one of these?










http://www.acasports.co.uk/images/products/full/metal-whistle.jpg




:wink:

Let me give the other side. When I was in college, I took group guitar lessons through the University extension. The instructor was a stunning young blond graduate student. Just as nice, and friendly, and patient as she was beautiful.
Kind of a motley group, including this one guy who wouldn't shut up. But she taught and we learned. Before we were done we could (kinda) play Proud Mary, City of New Orleans, Teach Your Children. I still remember this kind of chord melody piece she wrote and taught us.
Now it wasn't perfect--it took me until years later until I discovered the quick and easy C/G chord change. But I learned something and stuck with the guitar.
And before you ask, I had a girlfriend (who is now my amazing wife) and I'm sure she had a boyfriend. But I still remember her Guild 12-string, and how she admitted she had never used a flatpick (another problem with the lessons, come to think of it) and needed to get one when she was taking part in some Chicago Busk-a-thon.

I'll probably get flamed for saying this here, but I disagree with this part of Tim's post. Class learning is a proven and effective method for disseminating information. It works for math, science, art, history, and yes, it works for guitar too.

Teaching guitar presents some unique challenges in a group environment, but it is most definitely NOT some mystical "special" subject that can only be taught privately.

Well, you certainly won't get flamed by me, and I can't imagine why anyone else would do so. Respectful disagreement makes the world go 'round. That said, I actually agree with you.


Just because you don't like teaching guitar classes does not mean that class learning is ineffective and/or inappropriate for the guitar. It simply means that it is not right for you. :idea:

Right again. I know that the "you" in your statement does not exclusively pertain to 'me', but I'll respond on a personal level. You and are I at about the same point as to teaching - it's 25 years for me as well now. We both know that it takes a lot of patience and creativity over the long haul to teach on any level. In many of my teaching stints, when the question of what teacher should be assigned to work with 5-6 year olds, or kids with ADD, arises, I've often got the call. Part of this is because so many of my associates have refused to do so. The bigger reason is that I have a soft spot in my heart in this regard, and a foundational ethic of any educator should be that all should be welcome in an educational environment, particularly those who are at a disadvantage. Certainly there are unique challenges in any teaching situation.

As to the situation I described in my previous post, regarding the class of unruly teenagers that I attempted to teach: I'm sure that given more experience with such, creative solutions would be formed, and it sounds like you've certainly found some of them. I always watch the movies about challenging teaching situations and often get inspiration from them. As to my decision not to again accept the scenario that I described, it was basically "Life is short... nah." I made the decision to hustle more gigs in the summer as opposed to taking on entry-level group classes. As mentioned in my previous post, I loved teaching classroom with serious students. I continue to teach one-on-one with a variety of folks, including some that my associates can't be bothered with.

Your statement, "It simply means that it is not right for you." couldn't possibly be more dead nuts on the money. As human beings, we all have our shortcomings (and stipulations), and when a work situation really and truly tweaks me the wrong way from the start, my tendency is to learn from it and nip it from future endeavors. It's a corny thing to say, but for educators, it truly is important to make a differerence and a positive impact upon the lives of others. Situations that destroy my nerves or otherwise take my heart and mind out of the equation and negate anything positive from this intended mission statement are obviously not a good fit.

By the way, hearty kudos on the excellent programs that you described in your post. Obviously, you've brought some good things to your community.

great thread !!! i've considered teaching , but i never taught anybody but myself !!!, and i consider myself an excellent student ...

hey tim, one more time you tell it like it is. are we the long lost twin brothers?

All kidding aside, somewhere out there I have some brothers and sisters that I've never met! I was adopted, and among the few things I know for certain about my biological heritage is that my blood is German.

Tim, Thank you for the kind words, and as always, thank you for a thoughtful considered response.

I was just kinda' surprised to see such negativity directed towards guitar classes here.

Especially in today's economy, not everyone can afford the higher cost of private lessons. For most beginners, class lessons are still a lot better than going it alone with DVD's and books. Guitar classes might not work for everyone, but they are an excellent choice for many people, IMHO.

Most of it depends on the students, but a lot depends on the teacher too.

...Situations that destroy my nerves or otherwise take my heart and mind out of the equation and negate anything positive from this intended mission statement are obviously not a good fit.

I totally agree. Reminds me of something else you posted on the forum about playing a Poison song... lol

Personally I have no problem showing a student how to play Poison, or any kind of music that's not that interesting to me personally. However, I won't perform that stuff in public, not even for a thousand bucks. Probably not even for a million. I'm a guitarist, not an entertainer. I gave up on the rock star thing a long time ago.

These days, I'm more interested in getting the college to pay for my health insurance! :oops:

i was thinking bout it over and over and over....
next session i will place the loud guy right next to me. so i don´t have to yell so hard. maybe something simple like that can help.
that whistle might be a good idea too!



Have you tried one of these?










http://www.acasports.co.uk/images/products/full/metal-whistle.jpg




:wink:

Reminds me of something else you posted on the forum about playing a Poison song... lol


I have played SHA once at a gig over the last twenty years or so. After my soundcheck at a huge college bar a couple of summers back, a guy from another act on the bill approached me, explained that their primary guitarist had unexpectedly taken very ill, practically begged me to play their set with them, and slapped a hundred dollar bill in my hand. I said, "Sure, what the heck." During the set, SHA came up. What was I going to do, get a case of the prima donna, spoil everybody's fun, and - beyond all that - forfeit my additional Benjamin? I grinned and played it like it was the last song I'd ever get to play in this life. I also played "Every Rose Has It's Thorn" by Poison during that set. Grinned all the way through that one as well, and even chipped in with some harmony vocals.



Personally I have no problem showing a student how to play Poison, or any kind of music that's not that interesting to me personally. However, I won't perform that stuff in public, not even for a thousand bucks. Probably not even for a million. I'm a guitarist, not an entertainer. I gave up on the rock star thing a long time ago.

Heh, touche'! Well... if I knew that this tune was to be on a regular set list, I'd be looking for another project immediately! Those guys were in a hurtin' way when they asked me do their set with them, and it was tough to say no. I had no clue what tunes were on their set list, I just agreed to try to help them out. I'd previously heard some of the songs that they did (as we were doing them, of course!), but was equally clueless as to plenty of them. I just hung out beside the bass player and watched his hands to get through it. So the whole show was on the fly for me. When they launched into the Poison song, the cartoon caption bubble floating above my head read "oh... my... gawd... say it ain't so...". Fortunately, most folks aren't very successful at mind reading; what the audience and my impromptu stage mates saw was me playing the song and smiling, and as mentioned, even singing harmonies. Whatever circumstances one finds oneself within on the bandstand, sour grapes is never a good call. The guys in that band "hired" me on the spot, and I accepted. Meaning that my gig was to play whatever came my way with as much conviction as possible, and smile and be pleasant from start to finish. In my book, "entertaining" is atop the list of requirements for the job description of "working player". I'm not really comfortable thinking of myself as a guitarist anyway. I prefer musician.

In any event, my own bandmates wasted no time in showering me with loudly yelled, sarcastic "whoohoo's" during the set, and they ragged on me mercilessly afterwards. One mate even jokingly called me a slut. It was all in good fun. I had the last laugh: "You guys are just jealous because I played twice as many sets as you, got twice as many cheers, and have a hundred bucks more than you in my back pocket. So... nyahhh!"


I too try to keep my personal tastes in check in the teaching environment. That said, from time to time, I feel that it's my civic duty to impose my impeccable taste upon students when the time is right. :mrgreen: For instance, when a kid comes in hell-bent to learn some absolutely horrible NuMetal tune, I'll say, "Sure, we can do that, but let me play you snippets of a few other tracks, and then you tell me which you'd rather learn, fair enough?" So I'll play for them bits from Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, AC/DC, etc., and nine times out of ten, they'll light up and get fired up on the old school heavies. So there's education there, in and of itself. For the rare guy that still insists upon learning the godawful tune, there are disclaimers: "I don't have a seven string guitar, and neither do you. I've no interest in owning a seven string guitar, and I can't speak for your mom and dad as to whether they're willing to buy you one. We can't get that low B. The best we can do here is to get you in the ballpark. If you're still interested, we can pursue it."

I can't say I own any Taylor Swift records or that I can call myself a fan per se, although at this point I know the majority of her songs. I have several teenaged students who are absolutely enamored of Ms. Swift, which is totally cool by me. I respect Taylor because she writes much of her material, and because those are basically some pretty well crafted pop tunes. It's not Dylan, Lennon/McCartney, or John/Taupin, but what else is. The young students learn about song form, learn some interesting rhythms, learn about arrangement and alternate instrumentation such as banjo and mandolin, learn about capo usage, learn about dynamics, and learn what the terms fermata and ritardando mean. Because the young ladies that I teach are such huge Taylor Swift fans, they've become aspiring singer/song writers. As such, we also work on melody, harmony, ear training, and transposition. So it's all good.

I'd love to say to them: "Well if you dig this, what you should really listen to is some Gillian Welch or Aimee Mann." I'll save that for later. They're fourteen years old or thereabout, and I have to allow them the same freedom to discover their own path that my better teachers did on my behalf when I was fourteen years old.

It's interesting to hear of peoples experiences...I've personally done little guitar teaching over the years, but I did learn originally in a "group class"...and had some other experiences that might give some "strategy".

Generally more than three is tricky to control with a music lesson.

i give lessons to a group of 6 schoolteachers. what a nightmare! they don´t keep the slightest discipline, make tons of noise and are totally pxxxxed off when you ask them to be quiet and listen. when that is over (5 more sessions)

It's hard to gather why they were doing it at all, how long the classes are, or what they expected to learn in 6 sessions or so.

Confronted with this situation (easy to say since I'm not) and if the "class is an hour say (that would be similar to 10 minute individual lessons with a group of 6) I'd be splitting them up in short order.

If there is room, have one lot of 3 practice elsewhere for a bit and spend half the class with the others, then reverse the groups (who gets to practice) the next class.

Then I would apply "peer pressure"...providing room, arrange them so they face you, perhaps in a semi circle...then make them sit in your chair in front of everyone and play what ever it might be. This tends to put people off and pay attention because now they aren't in the "audience" as a heckler and a bit of nerves might "fix" em!

It can be good if they feel they can actually make music...

You might select a song like "pipeline"...teach them the E,B,G,B riff thing...you play the melody over it. Next time, have them play the melody...what ever gets their fingers moving.

Kids can be a different problem...if it really is an after school "child minding" situation...and if they are not excessively interested, it might be worth considering tuning to open G perhaps...if later they want to really play, they can learn standard tuning.

I did this for a neighbour when I moved a few months back....an adult who came around and was interested in my guitars and wished he could play. I had to get rid of some cheap guitars and so gave him one and a cheapo book that was lying around. I could see with zero experience and me leaving town there was a limit to what he was going to be able to learn...so tuned to open tuning, showed him some basic barres and strums and he was happily faking "knocking on heavens door" within half an hour.

...

When I was learning, very early teens, a group of us (usually 3 or 4) shared the cost and it was extremely productive. We'd learn from each other and play together outside of class...all three of us went on with music, one in a very successful band, another into classical music and now an oud master, and...well...I did my own thing over the years and was able to get into higher education and uni on the basis of audition despite leaving school early and joining a pub rock band in my teens for 7 years.

So...it can work...but some people...well, I don't know if times have changed...I'm a little jaundiced these days!

...next session i will place the loud guy right next to me. so i don´t have to yell so hard. maybe something simple like that can help...
Yup, there's usually at least one disruptive student in every class, but some are worse than others...

The worst are the ones who know a few chords, think that they can tune a guitar, and then are constantly challenging the direction of the class with comments like, "Stevie Ray Vaughn didn't know any notes!" :razz:

Having them sit closer to you can work, but it can also make it worse. Typically the obnoxious students find themselves isolated from other students pretty quickly, without me having to do anything. Then I get to be the "good guy" when I'm the only one still willing to talk to them... :wink:

Generally in group classes, the students will automatically form into smaller groups, or cliques, on their own. I try and assist this process by suggesting that students of similar interests and/or skill levels sit together.

In a class with 6 students, I might suggest 1 or 2 people work together as a team, and usually by the 3rd class, I'll end up with 2 groups of 3 students each, or 3 groups of 2 students each.

In a class of 20 people, I typically only have to suggest seating changes for 2 or maybe 3 people, and the rest just do it on their own. I try to end up with between 5 and 7 smaller groups.

The smaller groups help a lot with larger classes because then the people will talk amongst themselves in their respective groups, instead of trying to shout over the whole class, so it brings the ambient noise level down.

Encouraging the class to work in groups also makes it easier for me in other ways too. After the main lecture/demonstration part of the class, I can go around the room and check each group's progress one at a time, so it's more like teaching 6 or 7 individuals, instead of 20... :idea:

I also encourage students to exchange phone numbers or emails with other people in their group, so if someone has to miss a class, they have someone they can call for the assignment/homework.

From the students perspective, the smaller groups make it easier to make friends, as it's easier to make friends with 2 or 3 new people than having to make friends with 19 new people. Even though it's a class of 20, the students feel more like they're in a class of 3 or 4.

LBNL, When all else fails, sometimes you just need to use your "command voice". Usually I can get the class to a hush with an abrupt, "Listen UP!", or "Attention PLEASE!", then allow for a brief pause, and wait for the noise to dissipate. It's not really a shout, but it's louder than a natural spoken voice.

Anyway, I hope this gives you some ideas. I enjoy teaching classes, but it does tire me out faster than teaching private lessons.

In any event, my own bandmates wasted no time in showering me with loudly yelled, sarcastic "whoohoo's" during the set, and they ragged on me mercilessly afterwards.I hear you. I'm not much of a performer anymore. Physical issues make it hard to stand for more than and hour or two. Sometimes I can't stand for more than 30 mintues... While I could say "no" to a million bucks, there's not much I wouldn't do for love, or for my bandmates.