Breaking out of Pentatonic Rut?

Coming from a blues/rock background, I tend to play exclusively in the pentatonic formations, but I find it almost impossible to get that classic country twang sound. Anyone have suggestions on what scales I should look into and how to incorporate them into my playing:?:

Do you know that your E minor pentatonic with the open strings is the same as a G major pentatonic? The first thing to do is shift that pentatonic pattern to use the major ones.

The second thing to do is change patterns with the chord changes instead of sitting in one box the whole time.

That will get you started. Plain old major scales are used all the time. Learn how they lay over your favorite pentatonic patterns.

Then search this forum and youtube to find you a handful of pedal steel licks. That will get you started.

thanks for the advice, RC. Besides major scales though, what else should I be looking into??

Just a small example to get you started: Play a C barre chord, root on A string, 3rd fret. Now play A minor pentatonic scale, but without playing the actual A root on the bass E string...start 4 frets up from that, which is C. So you play 7th fret on the E string, then 5th fret on the A string, then 7th on A, then 5th on D, then 7th on D, then 5th on G, then 7th on G, then 5th on B, then 8th on B, then 5th on high E, then 8th on high E.
Try fretting both the high E and B strings at the 8th fret with the little finger, play upward ie. E string then B string and let ring, now fret the G string at the 5th, bend it up a full tone, release and pull off to the 5th fret(index finger). Try playing around with it, different combinations and bends etc.
As you can see, you're still using the familiar pentatonic shape, but in a different position.
Hope it helps, sorry if it doesn't...no charge either way. :cool:

Transcribe, transcribe, transcribe.

The best way to learn a particular style (like country) is to sit down with a recording (and these days a copy of Amazing X or Transcribe) and learn solos & parts that others have recorded.

The major pentatonic scale and major scale as previously mentioned, are the way to go but in order to learn how to apply them you have to transcribe.

You can also look at chord shapes and target chords tones.

For instance, if you had a typical country progression that went E / / / | G / / / | A / / / | I would immediately go to the A shape barre chord and leave off the root,

So for E major xx999x and use that shape as a place to start my improv.
To then play the G chord you would look at the C shape xx978x and then slide that up a tone for the A chord.

These are simply shapes with which to start and improv- what you do with them is then up to you.

I like what octatonic says about transcribing and getting your ears going.

At most music schools, ear training classes actually consist of singing. The general idea is if you can sing something accurately, that means you can hear it. If you can hear something accurately, then you should be able to play it, even if you have to go slow and figure it out.

A long time ago I remember reading something Johnny Winter said about singing along with your guitar lines as you play them. The goal is to be able to sing something freely as it you feel fits the music, and then be able to play it back on your guitar.

It's a good way to get away from playing patterns with your fingers and start playing music with your ears. Don't play the patterns, play the sounds...

If that's too hard to do right away, start by singing or humming along with your guitar when you're practicing scales and/or patterns. Eventually your ears and fingers will sync up, and you'll find yourself playing music without having to think about what pattern or scale it comes from.

Bend the ii, reverse bend the ii then play the I....pure country twang.

If the music is not already in your head then transcribe. I've done very little transcribing to date but can play convincing blues and country because that is what is in my head. If that music is NTO in yoru head then you have to put it there and transcribing will help (although you run of the risk of becoming mechanical if, again, the music is not in your soul in the first place wanting to come out). In any case transcribing will give you a better understanding and a much wider variety of ideas/licks to work off of.

Scale-wise start with the major pentatonic and incorporate the major scale when you feel more comfortable. The Major Pent. just screams country but remember to NOT play the same licks you would on a minor pent, because it is a totally different beast.

Check out Dorian mode/scale. It kinda lays over the top of the Pentatonic pattern but adds a whole different flavor to the well-trodden D & E string improvisations.

oh...also be conscious of your pick attack. You can be a bit sharper with country stuff and you might nto wanna sustain or vibrato nearly as much as blues conditions you to do.

Just my two cents - and by all means I'm still working away on this myself - but I think the key to the true feel of cool country runs ala great tele pickers is having an ear/knowledge as where to throw down chromatic scale notes - notes which don't conform to anyone scale but really groove in transitioning between shapes, chords, passages, etc.

To me, country and rockabilly share this very closely.

I don't know how you go about playing but I've been working on solid scale work while absorbing the sound and feel of the scale, then the second half of practice trying not to think in scales and feel the music. Play the melody in my head.

Amazing how most of us can hear a rhythm track and immediately hum a lead to it -- in key! I'm working at attaining this through the instrument but having a solid foundation in scales greatly helps me understand why what I play sounds good or not.

Hopefully, when you find a pattern that has a strong country flavour, the music in your head will allow you to take it somewhere...it's quite hard to put this stuff into text, I could have shown you 3 or 4 different ideas to try in the time it's taken to type this.
Just trying to give you a tangible starting point...for some, that's enough to get them up and running, for others it takes more. Listen to as much country as you can, especially the relationship between notes and chords.

Here is some of what I found to work for me as I started learning blues after a long, long layoff.

1. Spend some time in the pentatonic playing with 2-3 note combinations, where any note can be repeated. You will find lots of tasty little zingers in there that you won't find by adding the two other notes needed for a major scale (or dorian).

2. When you find a lick or fragment that really says country to you, play it to death so that it becomes a reflex. You will often find that you can use other notes to get a similar effect.

3. Try this. Let's say that a step is just the next note in the scale, whether major or pentatonic. You will find that your most bland moments come from going up, up, up, or down, down, down by step. Changing direction helps, but there is something else: a gap. Try going step down, step down, gap down, step down. (A gap skips over a step). In C pentatonic, the above would be: C A G D C. The gap is between G and D. You are skipping over the step, the note E. Some people like to change direction after a gap, some don't. In blues, SRV does this to keep him minor pent sound interesting without wankery or adding other notes.

4. Find some youtube live performances that you like and join the band. That helps me break out of my cliches and patterns.

5. Try playing dyads in 6ths, up and down the neck on strings 3 and 1, 2 and 4, 3 and 5. Try playing one note of the dyad at a time, and also slide.

Thanks for the great advice. I'm currently learning the Major Pent. stuff some of you talked about

Go to youtube type chicken pickin or country guitar licks, lessons, etc. chances are you'll find something you can learn and practice in addition to all the other great suggestions here. In no time folks will be calling you, Buck. Now git wif it, Hoss.

I broke out of the rut by learning to play licks over the cowboy open chords...specifically the C A G E and D chords down by the nut. Get a book on the CAGED guitar system. You will be twanging in no time because of all the open strings available.

Be sure to play with more Chord Shapes, and less Scale Shapes.

Triads are easy to grab, and sound very nice. A good place to start with Targeting Chord Tones.

thanks for the great advice. I am confident I'll be Brad Paisley Jr in no time

As so many others have said, it's the major pentatonic that's most popular in country, not the minor. You can add notes from the major scale & mixolydian mode to that, too....I tend to use the major pentatonic as a skeleton & fill in other notes as I see fit.

Someone suggested adding notes from Dorian....but that's a minor tonality that fits better with the minor pentatonic.

As so many others have said, it's the major pentatonic that's most popular in country, not the minor. You can add notes from the major scale & mixolydian mode to that, too....I tend to use the major pentatonic as a skeleton & fill in other notes as I see fit.

Someone suggested adding notes from Dorian....but that's a minor tonality that fits better with the minor pentatonic.

Correct. Interestingly enough if the OP already knows Dorian than Lydian will be a cinch as it is "the Dorian of the major pent"....it occupies the same shape relative to the major pent. as the Dorian to the minor pent.

I like what octatonic says about transcribing and getting your ears going.

At most music schools, ear training classes actually consist of singing. The general idea is if you can sing something accurately, that means you can hear it. If you can hear something accurately, then you should be able to play it, even if you have to go slow and figure it out.

A long time ago I remember reading something Johnny Winter said about singing along with your guitar lines as you play them. The goal is to be able to sing something freely as it you feel fits the music, and then be able to play it back on your guitar.

It's a good way to get away from playing patterns with your fingers and start playing music with your ears. Don't play the patterns, play the sounds...

If that's too hard to do right away, start by singing or humming along with your guitar when you're practicing scales and/or patterns. Eventually your ears and fingers will sync up, and you'll find yourself playing music without having to think about what pattern or scale it comes from.

I agree with you about singing, if you can't say it, don't play it. Country guitar is special, though. A complex and difficult as Jazz lines can be, bebop riffs for example, they almost always lend themselves to being sung. I'll grant that some Jazz lines are very dissonant or just too darned fast, but most are lyrical.
Country licks, especially hot, fast chickin pickin stuff, or repetitive form "tricks" where you play a shape over and over in a chromatic movement, are very hard to sing up to tempo and it tune.
Transcribing is really vital. We all can hear a player who makes up their playing out of stock licks, and if those phrases don't reflect a real understanding of the genre acquired through learning the riffs and solos of the great Country pickers we all love, the playing sounds beginnerish.
You Tube is a big help to beginning Country pickers because it shows you the hand positions, the fret positions, of the soloist, most of the time.
If you're not learning licks and solos from recordings note for note, you'll never break out of the prison of sounding like a beginner. Technical skill won't save you, you have to understand and memorize the great playing of the cats that gave country guitar it's voice.

Bend the ii, reverse bend the ii then play the I....pure country twang.

If the music is not already in your head then transcribe. I've done very little transcribing to date but can play convincing blues and country because that is what is in my head. If that music is NTO in yoru head then you have to put it there and transcribing will help (although you run of the risk of becoming mechanical if, again, the music is not in your soul in the first place wanting to come out). In any case transcribing will give you a better understanding and a much wider variety of ideas/licks to work off of.

Scale-wise start with the major pentatonic and incorporate the major scale when you feel more comfortable. The Major Pent. just screams country but remember to NOT play the same licks you would on a minor pent, because it is a totally different beast.

What differences in licks should be seen in Major Pentatonic?

Are there any types of rules to follow for this?

I'm not above stealing licks. Listen to some recordings and transcribe the licks you like. Are there any good books of country music licks and solos?

What differences in licks should be seen in Major Pentatonic?

Are there any types of rules to follow for this?

They are different scales so NO licks fom the minor really translate well to the major. In addition to the lick I talked abotu earlier (have you tried it?) you might try barring the first and second strings (lets pretend we're in G). hammer on the second string then immediately after play the root on the first string. So, you're hammering from the 5th (D) to the 6th (E) then hitting the root (G). Feel free to hammer on and pull off if you want to make the lick faster or you could repeat the hammer on > root little three-note thing several tiems for a cool sort of rolling sound. When in doubt...play A LOT and listen hard. Experiment! It's OK to experiement!

Does that help?

EDIT: This is at the third fret, mind

Oh...can't believe iIhavn't told you this CLASSIC:

We're still in G (remember this is E minor pent shape so there's loads of cool open-string fun up top). This time we're at the 8th fret. Bend the 10th fret then while that is still bent sneak your pinky in on the first string 10th fret (D) and play that D....then hit the still-bent note (I usually bend it a half-step)...reverse-bend...then play the root ono the 8th fret. More country-fried magic!

Thanks, JJ.

Those are some good licks for me to start on. Thanks for the info. I can already hear my sound moving from SRV-ish to Paisley-esque.

Find some Johnny Cash tabs from early in his carreer.

You gotta work the first and second fret scales (major/minor) with the open strings. Don't forget to bend like a mutha.

What differences in licks should be seen in Major Pentatonic?

Are there any types of rules to follow for this?

Kind of...

They are different scales so NO licks fom the minor really translate well to the major.

So...well I tend to disagree with this...there are similarities and "licks" you can transfer over IMHO...

...

One thing to keep in mind if you are used to a lot of blues stuff, it that country is less "elastic" with time..it tends to be far more on the beat and subdivisions than blues might typically be, usually more so than rock...so something to keep in mind.

Also...intonation is far more important in country, particularly things like bending, the style tends to ask for a lot of control, bending up to actual pitches, releasing bends from actual pitches, pre-bending actual pitches, for instance.

...

A lot depends on what you know and how broad your vocab in the minor pentatonic...maybe you might get some new blues moves and major moves at the same time.

It's not really getting you out of a pentatonic rut really to just step into the Major pentatonic, and these examples are simple using the "minor three frets back approach" so it is easy to see but doesn't help if playing out of "boxes" is getting to you either...but what the hey!

...

So, the kind of things that come to mind is say...lets talk key of A and compare a couple of "licks"...

A minor "lick"..............................A major "lick"
--------------------------15~--|------------------------12-
---------8~--or---15b(17)~~---|-------5~--or---12b(14)~~--
---7b(9)~~---------------------|-4b(6)~~-------------------
--------------------------------|----------------------------
--------------------------------|----------------------------
--------------------------------|----------------------------

Two moves characteristic of "blues" and country that are identical...two versions on different strings and octaves for your pleasure!

The minor version bends the D to the 5th (E) with the 7th under it...so makes a good dom7 kind of effect
The major version (3 frets back) bends the B (2nd degree) to the major third with the 5th under it...so make a good major triad effect

So...both "moves" are extremely common respectively in blues and country styles...however you may need to play them in mind with the tips of timing and intonation between the two styles.

Ok...something a bit more out there...something with a b5 blues sound...

A min blues..................A major....
--5-5-5-5-5-----------|--2-2-2-2-2--------------------
-----------------------|--------------------------------
--8-7-5-7-5-----------|--5-4-2-4-2-----2~~~~-------
-------------7-5-7~~--|------------4-2----------------
-----------------------|--------------------------------
-----------------------|--------------------------------

This is an "organ like" riff, good for learning a bit of simple hybrid picking as well. In the minor it is working down b5,4,b3,1,7,1 with the root over the top.

Transfer it down to "major"...you get b3,2,1,6,5...and I made an alteration so it ends also on 1.

However, you may look at the major in relation to a IV chord, in this case D...so you are getting a b7,6,5 over the 3rd of that chord, a mixo kind of sound or D7 effect from the same riff.

Notice also that that "blue" b5 in minor makes a "blue" b3 in major...food for thought perhaps?

...

So, I think there are a lot of similarities and transference of "licks" between major and minor, it may take some thought as to how to apply them and to play them "in style".

Some "rules"...well, I don't know if any are written down, I kind of have them in my head I suppose...one that immediately comes to mind is that if thinking in this box way, remember in this pattern the minor 3rd in blues is the root in major (three frets back). It is common in "blues" to curl that b3 up a little between major and minor, or even up to a major third...you do not want to curl up the root of the major in the same way (the root to a b9!!!)...eeek!

Similarly, you may have to tone down your "blues" vibrato in major keys...pulling a b3 or other notes in blues a bit or a lot sharp can sound cool, pulling major chord tones a bit sharp may sound out of tune or at least a bit sea-sick...just an observation.

...

As for teaching stuff...there are any number of people offering licks and tricks and tips these days...it seems a bit to me that people are not really listening to themselves as much as they used to, isolating problems and coming up with solutions of their own...not sure what I think about that, but sometimes you do need to get "specific" and seek out a remedy.

For instance...back in the late 70's...hmmm...anyway...I remember that I really wanted to learn bending and have control, coming out of the blues tradition I guess, I was influenced by those steely dan records and guys like Larry Carlton, et al.

So...bending in tune. I devised a way. I would play a note and do a unison bend to it so that they were in tune, work my way up the neck. Then, I would bend a note to where I thought the note would be, then "test it" against the unison on another string. In a short while I could get the feel of what a bend feels like on my guitar on any fret so that I could and still can bend to pitch and reverse bend and such.

It didn't take long really, I don't have to think about it now (unless I get a hold of some super slinky set up guitar that I am not familiar with) and it doesn't mean I can't play bluesy bends, if anything it gave me conscious control over the technique.

I did similar things with Vibrato, I developed a pretty decent personal vibrato influenced by english blues players like clapton. I practiced it similarly to above and variations like the BB king shake kind of thing. Along came the 80's and all these metal guys were doing these ultra wide vibrato things...so, again, practice every fret, every string. I even thought, well if I am doing this for an afternoon in front of the TV, may as well try and imitate all different kinds of vibrato styles...what is the difference between Kossoffs amazing vibrato and another player.

Isolating a problem and working on it in this kind of way, along with learning licks and such really only takes a little bit of effort, but some of these fundamental skills will make you appear a lot better regardless of the number of licks you know, and make learning licks and stuff so much faster.

Part of the power of this approach may well be that you can identify your own problems and come up with workable solutions...some can be told over and again something, but still not get it till you take responsibility in working things out...just a thought. Still, a little help along the way, never goes astray! :wink:

WHY? With the Pentatonic Minor and Major scales and the Major scale you can play music all night long.