Is it possible to have a chorus w/o verses?

This is more of a rant than a question...but if anyone can give me some help that'd be great.

Recent events in my life have lit the fire of songwriting for me. Writing songs has been pretty quick and easy the last few weeks.

Recently, I was messing around fingerpicking over the Am-C-F-G progression and quickly came up with several lines that would make a great chorus. Took me two minutes to write, but was very personal and sounded really good (for me, that is). This 32-bar segment is better than anything I've written so far, which doesn't mean its good, but good enough to make me happy.

Now I've been spending forever trying to write verses. I've tried rearranging the order of chords, adding minor chords, and everything else under the sun. I like the sound of some of them, but no words, none at all, can come to my mind.

However, with the same 4 chord progression I could write at least one or two other "choruses" easily, for some reason the words just flow with the rhythm/progression. The only problem is that I'm afraid of being too repetitive and it would dilute the words in the original section I wrote.

Since I'm pretty new to this songwriting thing, I'm out of ideas and anxiously waiting for a bit of inspiration.

I'd say sure, if it's workin' for ya(?)
Though the melody evolves and certainly the dynamics definitely evolve (to great effect), Radioheads 'Creep' is pretty much just a chorus - or at least the same 4 chords all the time.

The old chestnut, "Autumn Leaves" (at least the way you generally hear it) is 'technically' just the chorus - or what they used to call the refrain. There are verses but rarely are they played or sung. Many, many 'standards' have a couple of verses up front that nobody really does anymore.
'It Had to be You', 'Embraceable You', etc.

*There have also been a lot of great songs that started with the chorus. The Beatles, 'She Loves you' is a classic example.

I personally dig the tried and true verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus, out scheme ... but I'm a traditionalist (that's code for getting older).

This is more of a rant than a question...but if anyone can give me some help that'd be great.

Recent events in my life have lit the fire of songwriting for me. Writing songs has been pretty quick and easy the last few weeks.

Recently, I was messing around fingerpicking over the Am-C-F-G progression and quickly came up with several lines that would make a great chorus. Took me two minutes to write, but was very personal and sounded really good (for me, that is). This 32-bar segment is better than anything I've written so far, which doesn't mean its good, but good enough to make me happy.

Now I've been spending forever trying to write verses. I've tried rearranging the order of chords, adding minor chords, and everything else under the sun. I like the sound of some of them, but no words, none at all, can come to my mind.

However, with the same 4 chord progression I could write at least one or two other "choruses" easily, for some reason the words just flow with the rhythm/progression. The only problem is that I'm afraid of being too repetitive and it would dilute the words in the original section I wrote.

Since I'm pretty new to this songwriting thing, I'm out of ideas and anxiously waiting for a bit of inspiration.


Listen to Del Shannon's "Runaway".

verse
(Am G F E)x2

chorus
(A F#m)x4
(D E A D A)


It may be nothing like your song but it may give you some ideas.

I once had a chorus that I wrote that was great! I it took five minutes to write. I could never come up with verses. The harder I tried the harder the ideas came. I wrote this in the early 70's. I just let it go and would come back to it evey now and again...still nothing came!

Finally in '06 I pulled it out and played it for a songwriters workshop to see if I could get some feedback. I didn't get much except every one liked it. After it was over the person who ran the workshop asked me if she could help me finish the song. She is a great writer and has a cataloge being pitched in Nashville, so I was honered that she wanted to help.

We got together and finished the song in about two hours. It is one of the best tunes I have ever (co) written!!! It is also in her cataloge so tere's a chance someone will pick it up....

I guess my point is don't press to hard. Do keep coming back to it and soon enough somthing will come to you. I have found that it has to flow or it will sound forced. Put you're chorus in a file with other good ideas you have that don't seem to fit elsewhere and every so often go look in the file and see what ya got...somthing else you wrote may suddenly go with the chorus! Don't give up but let it happen on it's own....

Have fun!

Put you're chorus in a file with other good ideas you have that don't seem to fit elsewhere and every so often go look in the file and see what ya got...somthing else you wrote may suddenly go with the chorus! Don't give up but let it happen on it's own....


Great advice.
I'm not much of a writer but I have a ton of "idea" notebooks. There's always something useful in them that I re-discover.
(My version of the 'morning pages' from Julia Cameron's Artists Way book)

Song form and construction are good things to study and understand, but I really wouldn't get too hung up about it. I use it more as a quick tool for memorization than for anything else. If it flows nicely and sounds good to you, then it's good.

Lots of old time and country tunes have nebulous and murky relationships between verse and chorus, and many either start with or primarily feature a chorus, with the same set of changes for each section. Buck Owens and Hank Williams Sr. come to mind. Jerry Lee Lewis's "What Made Milwaukee Famous" is an odd egg for sure; the "chorus" is a quick little phrase tacked on to the end of the verse, and it almost behaves more like a pre-chorus - except that it doesn't go to an obvious full length chorus. To further confound, the tune does contain a bridge. Utah Phillips' "Rock Salt and Nails" is a series of verses that only references the hook lyric at the very end of the song.

Elton John's "Curtains" from 1975 is also a series of verses, in which the title word is never mentioned. The tune is built to highlight the extended crescendo outro, which is a counterpoint of vocal phrases with non-words.

Apart from blues-pop stylings of artists such as Robert Cray, most blues tunes establish a hook that is neither verse nor chorus. Then of course, there's King Crimson, Yes, and Rush...

Even in the Romantic age of the late 19th century when listeners, scholars, and critics liked to think of themselves as having moved past the established forms of the Classical age, many were bumfuddled by Johannes Brahms' concerted design to not include the prerequisite scherzo in his symphonies, opting instead for a separate and distinct third movement that was more of the allegro variety.

I've never thought of myself as a great self-sufficient song writer, although I've written a few. I think I'm stronger and more useful as a co-writer. Oddly, many song writers that I've worked with have struggled with bridges, which happens to be a forte of mine. So some of the co-writes that I've been involved with were based on the strength of supplying an effective bridge.

The commonly misused terms verse and chorus grate on me because the correct use of verse is an intro segue from another part of a musical, (or a similar intro in a piece not necessarily part of a musical or operetta). A chorus (in Jazz) is the body of a piece of music, often including the refrain. If everyone you ever deal with all agree on the misused terms and their new unofficial meanings, you're OK, but the terms are misleading. You might want to at least explore the traditional terms for parts of written music and lyrics, in case your song writing brings you into contact with legit publishers and arrangers.
To address your question ... why not? If there is an attractive melodic hook and the lyrics are timely and meaningful, a unique form may be a catchy change from the typical structure of Pop material.

Dancing in the Streets

Chain of Fools

Ain't it High Time We Went

Great to hear people studying songwriting...there is so much more to music than guitar techniques (or indeed gear :oops:)...even if you don't want to be a "writer", having a go will help with song structures and give a greater appreciation of the material you do play.

I found a great book in the local library called "writing music for hit songs" by Jai Josefs...contains examples of the ideas from over 100 hit songs.

Often these kinds of books (and there are a lot of them) explain theory ideas with a lot more clarity than theory books tend to, and a lot of stuff that is often not really looked into.

A book I always liked was the Jimmy Webb (by the time I get to pheonix, MacArthur Park, etc) Bio/songwriting book "Tunesmith"

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Lots of songs, especially if you have a longish 32 bar progression as yours would seem to have, only have one repeating sequence often with a lyrical tag...look at folk songs or things from Bob Dylan and Co...or the blues!

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If you feel it needs something...you could consider a musical interlude between "choruses". With an Am-C-F-G sequence, you could try something like F-G, F-G between them...this kind of thing is used effectively in lots of songs and can be interesting (I am reminded in this suggestion of the musical transition of "time after time").

However...very hard to make suggestions without knowing the kind of song and lyrical content...it may be fine just as it is!

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Others suggestions here are all good..."Runaway" modulates to a major key Am to Amaj, so creating a nice "lift".

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Don't be afraid to experiment with new song forms though, we all like to hear different things and some of the most interesting songs are "unusual"...look at things like "strawberry fields" and other that were created by pushing different songs into one....even abandoned songs can come to life later.

Also, it is amazing how that sequence continues to be used in various forms, just look at practically all the early dire straits material :wink:

Songwriting can be deceptively simple...few songs rely on being "tricky"...there are trends of course, a lot relies on lyrical content these days...but there is so much to be gained and we all need new songs (and, that's where the "money is")...so I certainly wish you well!

Thanks guys, lots of great help.

I got out of my rut, and the rest of the song is taking shape. Like I said, the Am-C-F-G progression gives me tons of lyrical ideas. Therefore I am adding a second "verse" with the same hook on the end of it as the other.

I now have ideas for two different bridges. Gonna work on them tonight. Might use one, might use both, not sure yet.

The good new is that I'm hearing plenty of music in my head, sometimes I can't write them down in time before another idea comes.

Again, thanks for the fresh ideas! :grin:

OK but, what key are you in? :lol: