What, exactly, is chime?

I keep hearing that as an explaination to how an amp sounds and I have to admit, I don't know what the hell it is.

Now I've been playing for 32 years. I'm no dummy.

Could someone give me the scientific description of "Chime?"

(and maybe an audio example I could track down?)

Thanks.

Go to Guitar Center. Plug in a Telecaster into a Vox AC30. That high end sparkle, some find it grating, is chime. Kind of high end distortion vs low end distortion that you get with Fender amps.

Like the middleman said....

play a Vox :wink:

I own Teles, a Casino and an ac30.

It's when an amp has a lot of complex upper mids and treble, without sounding "hard", like a Fender can when you turn up the treble. Some amps (like Voxes) have a gradual transition into distortion, so they'll build up even more of those complex overtones before the amp really starts to sound distorted. :cool:

- Scott

Lots of highs, high mids, with a little bit of high end distortion.

In other words, play a Vox.

The sweetest sound there is.

Sheen............

http://forksdrumcloset.com/zc/images/Tre23_lowres.jpg
?????

Fenders chime as well, if you ask me. Or maybe they just jangle. Hmm.. In any event, Vox chime, to my ears, is glassy and immediate, with a lot of separation between the notes of a chord. Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's how I think of it.

mama sez chime is those little rays of sunshine that make you feel all warm and happy insides

I am no closer to knowing what "Chime" is. LOL.

Maybe I'll just go home and plug the tele into the AC30.

So you won't get chime if you plug a Les Paul into a dimed Marshall????

Aw geez..........

Could someone give me the scientific description of "Chime?"


if you need to ask, you may never know.

... reminds me (obliquely) of an old non-sequiter I learned while working on a road-maintenance crew. The old foreman Zach was relieving himself by the side of the road. I warned him that a lady was approaching. He said "well, if she ain't seen one before, she won't know what it is..."

I would call this chime... but i donno :S
I guess his playing has more to do with the tone than the amp...

@ 0.55 - 1.14

nbLj5fkDTiA

You get chime if you plug a Les Paul pr any other guitar into a cranked up AC30, not a Marshall, not a Fender and not an AC15. Marshalls roar, Fenders have good top end articulation but the AC30 has a bell-like quality of its own - listen to Rory Gallagher, Brian May.

It was the 'top boost' and the 'top cut' circuits that got this sound, the AC30 uses a cathode follower tone stack. Plug in guitar, turn top cut off, turn treble and bass up fairly high, turn volume up, stand well back and play, stop and move much further away, try again.

The modern AC30CC, Laney VC amps and other clones can do this.

Chime is what I hear at 4pm - it's time for tea.
Lemon and Sugar for me please.:cool:
I must say I'm having some serious lust for the AC-30CC2.
It weighs a ton - feels much heavier than my Twin Reverb.

I'd leave the Guitar's volume on 5-8 and listen.
One thing and this might be serious; Is it possible You've lost the "TopEnd" of your hearing?
It may be time to see a specialist.

The most on-the-nose demonstration of chime is a Rickenbacker hollowbody 12 string (360-12 or 330-12) into a Vox AC30 in the top boost channel with the volume at about 50% (and if there's a master volume, that at 100%). Other guitars through AC30s often chime. THe 660-12 solidbody Rick 12 string chimes some, but not as much as the hollow ones. Go figure. Teles through AC30s certainly chime, and many Gibsons too if played properly - listen to early U2 for instance. Some chime can also be had through a Blackface Super Reverb with the same Rickenbacker 12 string. Other guitars and amps may chime, but if you need the classic reference points for it, try the Rick and the Vox. Then just try not to buy both of them on the spot. If you can afford them you will buy them. Unfortunately I'm an expert on this.

I didnt know what chime meant until I tried my strat though a Swart SE.
I know that doesnt help.. sorry.

FALSTAFF
We have heard the chimes at midnight, Master Shallow.
SHALLOW
That we have, that we have, that we have;

Best examples of chime in pop music to my ears:
Rickenbacker chime: 'Turn Turn Turn' or 'My Back Pages' from the Byrds
Tele chime: 'Back on the Chain Gang' from the Pretenders. Perfect tele chime, and a perfectly written pop song.

As everyone else said, its the sound from a Vox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqsyXdj_p_I&feature=fvw

That is the best example I can think of.

Ricki-12s jangle though most any amp, that's not the AC30 chime, it's the Ricki and the AC30 is running clean, very poppy, very Beatles.

Go and listen to Rory Gallagher's early stuff (he did not always use an AC30), it's the way the amp responds when driven, with bell-like overtones quite unlike a Marshall or a Fender, the amp chimes in with a voice of its own. Brian May is perhaps not such a good example because he uses so much boost but he does make the amps sing.
pkBYvscNKy8
I can't see the amp in this one but it's the right era and it sounds AC30
Fs_lhr4W1o4&feature=related

Some of the best chime i have ever heard comes from Mesa Boogie amps. But I know Vox will do it. Even my 59 Bassman will do it. It's Frequency overtone I believe.

Bruce

This would be chime to me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFAoiMz3pcU

More Vox Chime...

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More Vox Chime...

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That demo effectively refutes claims that an AC15 does not sound like an
AC30. The chime is there.

But no sparkle. Have to go to Fullerton for sparkle. :lol:

Mik

More Vox Chime...

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That is the chime I was referring to in my earlier post. Most definitely the VOX sound. You can hear it a lot on early Beatles songs like the chords in Taxman.

Px2h0K5AU7s

chime.


It is an algebraic term. Some of what some guys gave as examples of chime are not the same as my impression.

to describe (and fail) at describing it... I'd say it is very high articulation of notes without being grating... sweet and maybe a tiny bit sharp...

that would be my definition.

A Vox AC15 or AC30 into Celestion Blue AlNiCo speakers.

There is no harsh trebles. No stiff, ice pick, glass shattering highs. Glassy, jangly, sweet.

In short, the highs are still very much there and articulate, but slightly compressed and softened. Articulate and bright, but not harsh.

Sorry mate, you really have had to have played the original amps, the AC30 chimes, the AC15 does not (Taxman was probably a Fender or an AC15 being thrashed). If you make a 36 watt AC30/6TB chime though a pair or 15W speakers then you will need new ones. You can get those tinkly, jangly noises out of most any clean amp. It is indeed a frequency overtone thing. The Fender Bassman uses a T-bridge whereas the Vox uses a cathode follower, and most importantly the AC30 has/had the top boost circuit which is a tone control within the output stage, after the phase inverter.

Sorry mate, you really have had to have played the original amps, the AC30 chimes, the AC15 does not (Taxman was probably a Fender or an AC15 being thrashed). If you make a 36 watt AC30/6TB chime though a pair or 15W speakers then you will need new ones. You can get those tinkly, jangly noises out of most any clean amp. It is indeed a frequency overtone thing. The Fender Bassman uses a T-bridge whereas the Vox uses a cathode follower, and most importantly the AC30 has/had the top boost circuit which is a tone control within the output stage, after the phase inverter.



You are right, my biggest tonal image of a Vox AC15 is from my own build... which has a 30w OT and 2x12" Blue AlNiCo's. I have heard tons of AC15's - though its been a long while.

That post PI Cut control is interesting and affects the highs in a subtle and different way than the Treble control, but the chime in a Vox comes from the Top Boost preamp circuit, the PI (both of which sound best when turned up a bit and thin when at low volumes), and Celestion Blue AlNiCo's.

I've built AC15 and AC30 type circuits with Cut and without. With proper iron and without (even an early '60s 15 watt OT). With different preamp circuits and with TopBoost.

Taxman was probably a Fender or an AC15 being thrashed

I just checked Recording the Beatles and it was the VOX 7120, first time they used them was in 65. Solid state/tube hybrid.

..., and most importantly the AC30 has/had the top boost circuit which is a tone control within the output stage, after the phase inverter.

The top boost circuit follows the phase inverter, and the top boost circuit is within the output stage?

Vox Pathfinder = discount chime

God forbid that the Beatles got some of the greatest guitar tones in history from the 7120...(gasp) a solid state/tube hybrid amp. IMNSHO, listen to Abbey Road. Those were all Fender amp tones, and they chime with the best. I say phooey on anyone who thinks Fenders can't chime...or I guess we have different definitions of it.

The top boost circuit follows the phase inverter, and the top boost circuit is within the output stage?



Top Boost is in the preamp. The Cut control is after the phase inverter. I think jefrs just typed too fast.



God forbid that the Beatles got some of the greatest guitar tones in history from the 7120...(gasp) a solid state/tube hybrid amp. IMNSHO, listen to Abbey Road. Those were all Fender amp tones, and they chime with the best. I say phooey on anyone who thinks Fenders can't chime...or I guess we have different definitions of it.



I agree, and I am not disputing that :smile:

Many Fenders have beautiful chime, but the most dramatic example I could instantly think of is the classic TopBoost Vox amps... not trashing the EF86 preamp'ed Vox's, those chime as well (again, I blame the PI and the Celestion Blue AlNiCo's).

A blackface Fender with the right speaker has fantastic chime, albeit in a different flavor.

Abbey Road was the best studio on England and they had all the toys, George Martin and friends had the run of the place and would use anything and everything.

Yes, Top Cut indeed, me typo with the best of them, the Top Boost (TB) was the add-on cathode-follower tone control blob hidden around the back where you got your fingers burnt on hot valves groping for it in the dark (assuming the back was not actually on). I opine that cranked up an AC30 has a kind of singing sustain rarely found in other amps, unless they copy the circuit (which was copied from Mullard, RCA, Gibson and Fender). I'm not knocking the AC15, it's a often the perfect amp for a well driven OD sound, but it does not do what the AC30 does. Both do clean rather nicely. The AC30 is much louder.

Interesting article here http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.com/vintage325/JMI_TB_SCH.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.com/vintage325/topboost.html&usg=__cMTwjoWQ3iKT0NenPsZDg40a3-I=&h=285&w=506&sz=18&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=46qQfJEeBeDmKM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3DVox%2BAC30/6%2BAC30TB%2Bcontrols%2Bpics%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dof f%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1 (gosh, that's a long one).
Here's another one http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.penumbra.co.nz/images/vox_rear_panel_blue.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.penumbra.co.nz/allthegear.html&usg=__ZrGYYpcUdHk0eI76kbjkJoGakwI=&h=175&w=175&sz=22&hl=en&start=12&um=1&tbnid=bau3aWyJMGqHIM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3DVox%2BAC30/6%2BAC30TB%2Bcontrols%2Bpics%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dof f%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1 note the speakers in the AC30 were 'specially toughened' G12 i.e. the birth of the G12M, not the current G12-Blue AC15 speaker... quite important to the sound and longevity of the speakers in an amp of over 36 watts.

When I think of chime, this is the first song that comes to mind.
I think George used a Strat through a Twin Reverb:

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I keep telling you, that Beatles 12-string jangle is not the chime, you can do that with a Fender, and well too.

Go down the store, crank up an AC30CC2 real loud and play a good single note, the sound goes straight through you and keeps on going, it rings. When your hearing returns to normal, fiddle with the controls, move further away and do it again. It's a different sort of overdrive that's almost clean but with an edge to it.

Listen to Brian May doing it OTT.

Ahhh...one of my favorite topics...thought I might chime in!

Just moments ago, after reading this thread, I was comparing the chime using my 360V64 and my 60's Rick 450 through my favorite amp; a custom 5F8-A tweed twin (low power - about 45-50W - with 4x6V6's instead of 5881's) to my AC30 (my 3rd favorite of the stable behind my 6G6-A Bassman), both with early (pre-2007) 30W, light dope Weber Alnico's - 1 BlueDog and 1 SilverBell each. Twin 2x8 ohms parallel (4ohms), AC-30 2x8 ohms series @ 16 ohms.

BTW...the three amps mentioned all have CF tonestacks...is that a hint??

The Twin had an open jangly chime like The Byrds (adjusting the mid against the presence control is the key to selective overtones for me), while the AC30 had a snarly or nasal chime, like many of the Liverpool and Manchester groups of the '60's, with the top-edge from chime to distortion (brilliant channel alone) controlled by the Cut control (top boost) and the snarl controlled by messing with the Bass and Treb controls.

Does you no good, I'm sure, but my Brit friends such as jefrs might remember some of the chimiest leads ever from '64 - '65 (I know I do!)- Tony Hicks did it mostly with a 345 or a Vox Phantom...

The Hollies (Tony Hicks - lead solo ES 345 overdubbed...) in "I'm Alive", at 1:19 into the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSqZC7G3_9I

The Hollies (Tony Hicks - opening and lead solo ES 345 - live through Selmer Thunderbird) in "I Can't Let Go", - and before chorus/flangers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9JekRPVj2A&feature=related

or a bit more obscure rare bird indeed, and unheard of here in the USA, The Kubas' version of "Magic Potion"
http://www.merseybeatnostalgia.co.uk/html/the_kubas.html
...scroll down to the playlist

And a bit more modern....listen to the overtones from John Jorgenson's Custom 3-pickup Rick 450-12 on Mary Chapin Carpenter's "Passionate Kisses"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7l8lz4Urn4&feature=fvw
or...
The Rembrandts "I'll be there for you" OMG..there's another Rick 450!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KZkklo9LBs

That's all I have to chime about...

Oh, and BTW, if you could use words to describe exactly how we hear music, we wouldn't need the instruments...go with your soul and your ears.

If "chime" doesn't (no pun intended, OK maybe a little) ring a bell, it probably doesn't matter to you. Not a slam, just different words to describe that which only you can experience. When you do, you'll know it.

Another thing, IMHO, you won't discern "chime" through any speakers attached to a PC, no matter how good they may be. Why?:

1. Any digital source delivers only a fraction of what you are capable of hearing, and
2. Chime can only be fully appreciated when heard live, through an amp's speakers in front of you.

Just my $0.02 worth (or 1.6p worth in the UK)

Howdy,

The closest this Fender amp guy has come is with my new Dr. Z Carmen Ghia. It has a matching 1-12 cab loaded with a Weber AlNiCo Silver Bell speaker. At low volume with my Rickenbacker 360, it indeed chimes. I tend to associate "Chime" with British and/or EL84 based amps and my Carmen Ghia qualifies.

Eggman
PS: "Chime" isn't to be confused with the beautiful "Sparkle" one gets from a big 6L6 Fender amp. It's not easy to explain.

1. Any digital source delivers only a fraction of what you are capable of hearing



It aint the "digital source," its the crappy PC/computer speakers. A digital master properly done will have all of the frequencies our ears are humanly capable of hearing... the ones dogs can hear are too high to be considered "chime" and would likely enter the "harsh" ice pick realm if we could even hear them.

PS
Those tweed Twins are awesome in their own chimey way. BF Fenders have chime, but I miss some of the thick, creamy, upper midrange every now and then. BF Fenders are beautiful in to be sure though...

Good call, Eggman. The Blue and Silver AlNiCo's (whether Weber, or Celestion) seem to have that je ne sais crois that makes the chime while P12N's in a tweed twin will sparkle.

I didn't mention that, when I was a kid, I had a '65 Vox AC30/6 Super Reverb Twin piggyback with the silvers (the ultra rare JMI with slant sides). The trem was weird (think "I Get Lonely" by the Hollies), the piezo reverb was the absolute worst, but I was the bee's knees with that amp and my Gretsch 6120! That amp had chime out the yin-yang!! No pedals allowed!

I agree, Johnny Crash, and I'm discerning, but not what one would consider dog-eared. As a player, there are so many nuances about "tone" that are from feel and touch, rather than the audible alone. And, I might add, the amps I mentioned before had been on for over 1/2 hour warming up before I picked up the guitars...IMHO, there ain't much chime (and definitely less sparkle) in a cold amp!

Also, I have several different stereos around the house, and, I should clarify that the "delivery system", rather than the digital source, greatly affects our perception of the tones...OK, back to topic...

I will admit that they are close, but "sparkle" may have something to do with the Fender negative feedback circuit (especially the presence control types) from the days of Leo searching for more headroom. "Chime" definitely involves midrange and (audible) high-end harmonics and the way in which they blend; it's the guitar, the front end, the PI, the output, and the speaker(s).

To some, it might be cool if you could show a frequency response chart (like you see for speakers) that says "CFR" (Chime Frequency Resonance) for this rig is A1760Hz*2 (second order harmonic@1760 - I think that's A if you do the math - it's early). Unfortunately, then everyone would be buying amps based on a written spec rather than what an amp sounds like!

Good call, Eggman. The Blue and Silver AlNiCo's (whether Weber, or Celestion) seem to have that je ne sais crois that makes the chime while P12N's in a tweed twin will sparkle.

"je ne sais quoi"...."I don't know what"

"je ne sais crois"....doesn't really mean anything although literally you are saying "I don't know [I] believe" (the second "I" is implied by the form of the verb).

Sorry for the derail...French lesson over :wink:

EDIT: interesting note..."quoi" and "crois" can sound remarkably similar in spoken French but obviously have almost no similarity once written. It's a funny language where SO many words (to me) sound very similar. It took me a long time to be able to understand what French people are saying and I'm still not totally "there" :sad:

the byrds, turn turn and mister tambourine man,
the solo in nowhere man
the clean guitar all over revolver
the rhythm guitar in september gurls

no?

I'd say chime is an echoic expression for the quality of complex treble, bright but not piercing, comfortable for the ear. has a lot to do with how you play and where you pick. A 12 string normally has lots of chime, like harrisons that have been mentioned from time to time and as already mentioned a vox or any of the derivates like matchless can help. you can get a lot of chime from a tele, too, but how to distinguish chime from sparkle (isn't that a finish?), don't know.
:?:

50 different definitions of chime means there is no definition of chime. It's like "What does a blue sky mean to you?" To the OP, just make up your own definition because there is no consensus here.

What I learned from this post...

Every amp has chime. It's that sound found on (fill in your song here).

well im not sure i agree that different attempts at examples means theres no such thing as a definition

this is like theres no defintion of vanilla-its just impossible to describe-you can taste vanilla sometimes in wine, beer, biscuits, etc-it doesnt mean theres no definition

you need examples with sound too

i too think chime is
vox
celestions
el-84s
once you hear it youll know it -its distinctive
its like once you know what is a 'signature' strat sound

even the dave clark five was a good example of chime

i get some chime from my fender amps using celestions-not as much as a vox-but i can recognize the brit/vox association-more so with an el 84 amp i have with mixed celestions in the cab

I'm a chime-chaser, so I'll share some of my observations...

The frequency range that constitutes the chime zone seems to be in the upper-mids, with overtone support in the treble zone. It helps to have a clean sound that is on the verge of overdrive. Too much overdrive will kill the chime (attack envelope changes). The overtones are an essential element, and this explains why a 12-string guitar can chime easily. Teles seem to project bright overtones better than most guitars, and that design helps me into the chime zone better than any other 6-string I've played. Overdrive in cathode-biased amps that have no or little negative feedback contains a lot of harmonic content that one wouldn't get from a fixed-bias powered amp, and so the amp's power section also helps.

Tubes matter, too - some have better tonal and harmonic character than others, and therefore are part of the formula. EL84s aren't necessary, as I've gotten excellent chime from 6V6G-powered Carr Slant 6V (cathode-bias mode) and a 6L6G-powered Richter 5E7+ (tweed Bandmaster-ish head that is cathode-biased). I've also heard stunningly-inspirational chime from a Tele played through a black-face Super Reverb (Daniel Castro) - presumably with 6L6GC.

Speakers also matter, and I do find that the Celestion Blue, and Gold, help foster chime, when all other components are also providing. Weber Blue Dog and Blue Pup also are chime-ish, but not as much as Celestions, in my experience.

And, of course, one's playing style can coax or kill chime.

- Thom

Px2h0K5AU7s

chime.


It is an algebraic term. Some of what some guys gave as examples of chime are not the same as my impression.

to describe (and fail) at describing it... I'd say it is very high articulation of notes without being grating... sweet and maybe a tiny bit sharp...

that would be my definition.

Now that's chime!....and thanks for the memories! What a great song that I haven't heard in ages!

Tubes matter, too - some have better tonal and harmonic character than others, and therefore are part of the formula

I'm going to elaborate my thoughts on tubes, because I don't want to give the impression I was only talking about power tube type (EL84 vs. 6V6 vs. 6L6, etc.) differences. Preamp tube choices also strongly influence one into or out of the chime zone.

Let's talk 12AX7s...
RCA short-plate 7025 - pretty chimey: more upper-mid emphasis, great clarity
RCA short-plate 12AX7A - not so chimey: less upper-mid, more treble, very little harmonic content (mostly fundamental notes, when set clean)
"Philips Miniwatt" or "Amperex" (Heerlen factory, I65 type) short-plate ECC83 - very chimey: upper-mid emphasis, and much more harmonically-rich than short-plate RCA (that has similar-looking plate structure)
Mullard (Blackburn factory, I63 type) short-plate ECC83 - less chimey than the similar-looking Philips style short-plate Heerlen I65 type, due to more lower-mid emphasis. But harmonic-rich character of the Mullard gives it more chime-ability than the short-plate RCA 12AX7A
Ken-Rad (early-'50s GE) long black-plate 12AX7 - very chimey, due to strong upper-mids and treble, and tendency to break up more easily (thus providing harmonic content from overdrive distortion)
GE long gray-plate 12AX7 (mid-late '50s/early-'60s) - not chimey, due to rounded off upper-mids and treble, and later-breakup
Raytheon long black-plate 12AX7 - very chimey, due to upper-mid and treble emphasis, and early-breakup to enhance upper harmonics
RCA long black-plate 12AX7 (mid-late '50s small square-getter) - not so chimey, even though it has great clarity and breaks up early, due to more subdued upper-mid frequencies.
RFT ECC83 - never chimes; total mushball tube if attempting to use it this way, due to restricted frequency range, early breakup. But the RFT makes for an excellent lead player's V1 tube, especially if their amp is overly-bright, and they don't ever play "clean"

I could go on, but I think anyone who has read this far would get the idea about the chime formula: strong upper-mids + harmonic complexity (a kind of distortion), plus treble that is not piercing, but which supports conveyance of those pleasant harmonic overtones.

Power tubes also influence chime. Sylvania black-plate 6BQ5 are darker sounding, and don't chime as much as '50s D-getter Sittard "Amperex" or "Miniwatt" EL84. RCA black-plate/gray-glass 6V6GT don't chime much, but Ken-Rad 6V6GT are very chimey (upper-mids, plus crisp treble frequency extension, and faster-attack help).

- Thom

Just moments ago, after reading this thread, I was comparing the chime using my 360V64 and my 60's Rick 450 through my favorite amp; a custom 5F8-A tweed twin (low power - about 45-50W - with 4x6V6's instead of 5881's) to my AC30 (my 3rd favorite of the stable behind my 6G6-A Bassman), both with early (pre-2007) 30W, light dope Weber Alnico's - 1 BlueDog and 1 SilverBell each. Twin 2x8 ohms parallel (4ohms), AC-30 2x8 ohms series @ 16 ohms.

BTW...the three amps mentioned all have CF tonestacks...is that a hint??

good thing the OP didn't ask for details! What does "CF tonestack" mean?

good thing the OP didn't ask for details! What does "CF tonestack" mean?


"CF tonestack"=cathode follower tonestack.

Mik

the byrds, turn turn and mister tambourine man,
the solo in nowhere man
the clean guitar all over revolver
the rhythm guitar in september gurls

no?

I was going to ask if September Girls was chime or jangle lol

Yes, can someone please differentiate chime from jangle. I don't want to be inadvertently chiming when I mean to be jangling. Maybe I should changle, just to be safe.

So a Washburn elect, Hondo or Ibanez will chime as a Ricky or Tele if it runs through an AC-30?

Is there anything inherent in an unamplified sixstring that would indicate more chime than another guitar?

I've got to think that hollowbodies would have more natural overtones/or presence that leads to chime? All the metal around the bridge of a tele leads to chime, or harmonic overtones

Is there anything inherent in an unamplified sixstring that would indicate more chime than another guitar?
You can certainly hear the lively harmonic-rich character when you play a well-suited electric guitar unplugged. If you don't hear it unplugged, there's no magic that's going to make it happen when it is amplified.

- T