Church musicians must be exclusive?

A guitar player in my band wants to play in a church worship band. Because this church regards everyone serving as worship leaders they require completion of their ten week course of study. For me so far so good. But… now he tells us to play in their band he must sign a contract that he will not play in any other bands.???

I thought part of being a Christian is going out into the world to let your light shine, not get in here and lock the doors. My friend is a very active musician having played over 40 years. Now he will give all of that up to serve just one church. On the other side of the coin we played another members church picnic this summer where they paid us gas money and cases of good wine.

Anybody else experience similar situation?

Bummer. I can't imagine why they would do that unless they record to resell their music and don't want their players in competing bands. But I agree with you, I think it would be cool to gig in a club on Saturday night and in church on Sunday, provided the Sat. night gig doesn't cause you to sin.

I don't have an issue with a church having rules such as that. You know the rules going in. A church worship leader should have two requirements:
Be skillful on their chosen instrument
Have an active walk with God.

I play in a church worship band at an Assembly of God church. I play in a Bob Dylan/The Band group, and I play in an acoustic duo.

The pay better be pretty good for an exclusive contract like that. Something doesn't sound right there. I love praying with my music as much as anybody, but unless I took vocational vows, I wouldn't expect to be cloistered.

Are the worship leaders in the other ministries (non-music) required to sign exclusive contracts as well? Are they not permitted to have day jobs?

Sounds like a bit of whacky doctrine. I don't know how they can justify that kind of thinking other than a kind of 'holier than thou' attitude. I could see other guidelines to limit behavior, but not this.

The question that comes to my mind with this contract is it regarding other worship groups/artists or 'secular' bands?

I've played with several people lately and my regular worship leader has encouraged me to do that. I had a chance to do a week long conference with a pastor basically as an audition to be full time with him. My pastor and worship leader were excited for me and were equally disappointed as I was when everything fell through.

Personally I was afraid to approach these two long time friends but what I finally had to realize was that I was trying to serve God, not my friends.

Thats the problem I have with such contracts. A certain youth group had its leaders do a contract that they wouldn't listen to secular music and watch anything PG or worse etc etc. What happens is that when a person fails to live up to this contract/pact/promise they don't know who they've let down, their friends or God

Sorry if this has crossed the guidelines on this

I think it might be a matter of them wanting you to be dedicated in your music to just the worship team. So all your focus in playing should be working towards that, instead of potentially spending more time working on material for other bands and giving the Sunday service your "second best".

Not saying I agree with that philosophy, but I think that's where it's coming from.

To me, everyone playing in a worship service should have the commitment to it to give it their best. So I don't care what else you do with your playing as well, just as long as you don't treat the worship team as an afterthought. That means making every practice (of course), at least thinking about the material outside of practice a bit, and showing up ready to go and in good frame of mind for the service.

Are the worship leaders in the other ministries (non-music) required to sign exclusive contracts as well? Are they not permitted to have day jobs?

The question that comes to my mind with this contract is it regarding other worship groups/artists or 'secular' bands?

These are the kind of things I need to talk with him about. He told us he would need to quit our 'secular' band.

I have a few mixed feelings. I'm selfishly bummed about losing him, we play every week and gig 1-2 times a month. I'm glad he is deepening his service to God. I'm concerned about church contracts that prohibit participation in the world.

That's cracked. Sorry, but it is. Way too many control issues there.

Sounds crazy, I would like to hear why such a contract exists

If it was me I wouldn't agree to such a thing.

Sounds to me that the guy was potty trained at gun point

no way I'd do it

does seem a bit strange, I'd like a few more details before I form an opinion...

I wouldn't do it.

Count me in as somebody that wouldn't do it. I don't have problem playing outside church as long as I'm promoting a positive message.

As a worship team member of long duration, I too, have done the "backslide" into secular music. Wouldn't have done it any different...

My take? There is Christianity. Then there's "Church-ianity." I have enough trouble trying to keep the two basic commandments to love God wholly, and my neighbor as myself.

Seen plenty of rules...and the broken people left behind, as well. Like Abraham Lincoln, (and Phillip Yancey), I prefer a church that will first emphasize the "basics of love."

Ever hear of Sister Rosetta Tharpe? What an inspiration to so many greats! Capable of burning up a white Gibson SG (and the first 10-rows at her concerts); played gospel all her life. She was buried in an unmarked grave in Philadelphia until some "sinners" thought better of it.

I dunno...I'm just a poor sinner. God have mercy on us all...

does seem a bit strange, I'd like a few more details before I form an opinion...


+1

It just sounds like there's more to this story we're not hearing. So, what's the motivation here? If he agrees, can your friend play nothing outside of this church?

Two reasons I can think of-

1- If you play in another band with less than Christian ideals, that could reflect poorly on your Church.

2- Merceneries. I know more than a few people who only go to Church in order to be able to play. They don't become involved in the Church in any way other than the band. They often belong to several churches at the same time. To my mind, this is to give the perception of glorifying God, but in reality feeding an ego.

Our requirement is that team members attend our church, and ideally become members. They can't just come to play and leave, etc. No restrictions on what they do outside, that is between them and God. If we were getting reports that someone was spending their own time doing things that directly conflicted with the church or our values(and this includes more than music), etc, we'd probably ask them to take a step back for a bit and re-evaluate themselves and their position on the team. Like it or not, we are leaders, we are noticeable, so sure there is a little more pressure on us, but if you are living your life for God, the rest of the stuff usually falls into place.

But we'd never say you can't play in bands, or with other people. That's silly. We don't pay or get paid to do this, we feel very fortunate when someone donates their time and talent.

I grew up with my Dad being a preacher and I've never heard of anything like that. It seems a little suspicious to me.

As a worship team member of long duration, I too, have done the "backslide" into secular music. Wouldn't have done it any different...

My take? There is Christianity. Then there's "Church-ianity." I have enough trouble trying to keep the two basic commandments to love God wholly, and my neighbor as myself.

Seen plenty of rules...and the broken people left behind, as well. Like Abraham Lincoln, (and Phillip Yancey), I prefer a church that will first emphasize the "basics of love."

Ever hear of Sister Rosetta Tharpe? What an inspiration to so many greats! Capable of burning up a white Gibson SG (and the first 10-rows at her concerts); played gospel all her life. She was buried in an unmarked grave in Philadelphia until some "sinners" thought better of it.

I dunno...I'm just a poor sinner. God have mercy on us all...


As well put as I have ever heard.

That's cracked. Sorry, but it is. Way too many control issues there.

Sounds crazy, I would like to hear why such a contract exists

If it was me I wouldn't agree to such a thing.

does seem a bit strange, I'd like a few more details before I form an opinion...

I wouldn't do it.

Count me in as somebody that wouldn't do it. I don't have problem playing outside church as long as I'm promoting a positive message.
All of the Above!!!

I have been the primary worship leader/music director for two churches over the last 10 years and served as a team member for about 5 years before that. I have never heard of any rules regarding exclusivity. In fact many of my musicians, including myself, will play at neighboring churches from time to time. The only thing I ask of my musicians, and I am usually asked of the same when working for someone else, is that regardless of what I/they do outside of church - music or otherwise - remember you are now in a public position and your words and actions will affect your credibility - so use common sense. The only way I would sign an exclusivity contract is if I was guaranteed a substantial amount of money and I do not know of any churches that pay THAT well:)

Think about this in reverse. Under this policy, a professional musican, for example, a studio player or the principal cellist of the local symphony, is not allowed to play in church and worship with their instrument. Does that sound, for lack of a better term, "kosher"?

he knows going in what the expectations are.

I have been involved with church music/musicians for a long time and can see why a church might want this type of arrangement. I wouldn't ask for such a thing but do understand that this COULD be a good thing for some musicians and churches.

How much is he being paid? How often will he be expected to be there, multiple sunday services, multiple midweek services, travelling with the church and or pastor?

There are different ways of doing things that are neither right or wrong. This is the rule there. He doesn't have to except it. Doesn't make him more or less of a Christian just not a fit for this particular situation.

Love covers a multitude of sins/shortcomings/failings. A 10 week training course to be a church lmusician seems pretty intensive. They must be expecting quite a "performance" on stage and off.

Let us know how this turns out. It should be interesting. How long is this contract?

Only read the first post but just had to say this before I go back and read the rest of the thread:

That is just plain stupid. He should tell them no thank you and take his talent somewhere it will be allowed to speak to people both within the church walls AND without.

EDIT: ok, read the comments and thought I would add that I too had to sign a contract when I joined by church worship band and I also would have been required to become a church member had I not already been one. The contract states that I will attend church regularly on off Sundays as well as weeks when I'm playing. I suppose that would prevent me from playing in another church's Sunday morning worship but I have no doubt that both my senior and worship pastors would have no qualms about club gigs and certainly no problem with my playing at another church's midweek or Saturday night service so long as that church understood that my current church would remain my home. In fact several members of our band play at other churches and one is actually a touring musician in a secular band.

Well, there's no rule saying I cannot worship wherever and however I like...and I do worship wherever and however I like. I wouldn't sign a contract like that as no one has a right to expect me to agree to it. (In my opinion of course.) I would agree to showing up for practices and performances, not to to any form of exclusivity.

If it sounds judgemental, I'm sorry, but it is a crazy demand.

Mike Bruce

So, Sax4blues, any more information on WHY this is required?

So, Sax4blues, any more information on WHY this is required?

We don't get together again until this coming Wednesday. I will definitely talk in depth with him. He took me by surprise when he told us this last week and I didn't really get into it right then. It just seems wrong on just about every level. Thanks for the feedback everyone, it helps me get my head together before we talk.

I think the reason might be that they don't want you playing in a bar on Saturday night and then in church on Sunday. While you might be a great Christian witness in the bar, many people will just see that a leader in the church was at the bar.

Ironically the reason I logged in today was to ask if any of you guys also play secular music in bands outside church. Forming a new group. We want to play a mix of Christian and secular stuff. I'll post more in a new thread.

I think the reason might be that they don't want you playing in a bar on Saturday night and then in church on Sunday. While you might be a great Christian witness in the bar, many people will just see that a leader in the church was at the bar.

Oh noes... I guess the Wesley brothers weren't Christians then!

Oh noes... I guess the Wesley brothers weren't Christians then!

I don't think wahwax said that you couldn't be a Christian and in a bar.

I see his point. It might be awkward if you invite a buddy to church and have him lean over and say that the guitar player on stage was playing at the bar the night before. Of course, it could lead to some good discussion too, just depends on the situation. Nobody told him he couldn't play anywhere he wanted to, they just said that he can't do it if he wants to play with them

I don't think wahwax said that you couldn't be a Christian and in a bar.

I know, it was more of a remark in general to those people who would think otherwise...

But… now he tells us to play in their band he must sign a contract that he will not play in any other bands.

From re-reading your original post, it appears the possibility may exist that your friend may be looking for a way out of your band without creating any hard feelings. Just another angle.......

Posssible?

Last time I posted here the thread got closed so I'll try to be as PC as possible.

Our church is very outreach minded. Our pastor actually encourages us to play secular tunes and play out in clubs. His theory is people who don't come to church or "would never go in a church building" might see us and think, hey if those guys are welcome, I would be too. That's not to say we're out getting wasted and falling down, but if we're on a break and someone comes up to say how much they enjoy the music, we say "thanks, we play every sunday morning too." It's a fine line to walk. And a lot of people who have been in church for a long time think it's hypocritical. However, I've seen more faces saturday night and sunday morning than I can count. People who have turned their backs on a church for this reason or that feel welcome and like they have some common ground with someone before they ever walk in. Becoming like the ______ to reach the ______. I think that's in the book somewhere. :smile:

I play in a CHristian Blues band called "Matt & The Testifiers". We willplay anywhere...and we have....I write & choose all our tunes. The message goes from "in-your-face evangelistic" all the way to secular love songs. They all have to be true. God is the Author of truth.

All our stuff has a positive message, is truth-based, has screaming guitar, & a heavy backbeat. I've played bars on Saturday & church on Sunday. We view it as a mission & a way to get the truth out. Plant a seed here, a seed there. We even play "Black Magic Woman"...because it is a true story about a Christian girl.

I see no problem doing this...but when I was much younger in my walk I certainly did so I will not cast stones here.

But to the OP, I thik the requirements put on your friend AS YOU HAVE STATED THEM THUS FAR, are controlling & smack of legalism....but...there may be a reason for it. Past history, getting burned, who knows. It just calls for some investigation.
As someone else said, he knows the score going in...if he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to play with that church.

JMO.

Mark

As someone stated in my defense, I never said that someone in a bar could not be a Christian. The question is this, does your presence in a bar impact your witness?

Romans 14:21 NIV It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

A strong Christian can handle being in a bar and even having a drink or two without stumbling, but will he make others stumble? And being on stage in church is a leadership role. Hanging out in a bar 8 hours before you are in church is an easy way for the rumors to start flying.

I, myself would have no big issue playing at a bar if they were non-smoking. I can't handle the smoke.

I would have no problem with an FBI background check for the sake of working around youth or others (nothing to hide, here), but the exclusive contract or similar arrangement would not fly with me.

We even play "Black Magic Woman"...because it is a true story about a Christian girl
???

A strong Christian can handle being in a bar and even having a drink or two without stumbling, but will he make others stumble?
+ 1; Christian musicians (especially) must remember our faith is not about us, but about the people around us. This responsibility always makes for an interesting balancing act between Amazing Grace and Honky Tonk Women.

I would have no problem with an FBI background check for the sake of working around youth
Me, too. Around here you just about have to agree to be checked out!

I wouldn't do it.............unless THEY agreed to cover all the financial loss I would be facing.
And then I still wouldn't do it.

I'm a minister as well as a musician. I love to play occasionally in worship, and go to the local progressive pub venue where i am welcome to play anything I like. We never ask our church musicians for exclusive contracts except an exclusive commitment to worship and weekly rehearsal times - anything beyond that spells CULT to me. The God I worship advocates freedom and trust.

The only "contract" should be the one that the musician makes with his Savior.

Sounds pretty scary to me. I serve on my church worship team and I also perform in a very active rock band, Tripleshift (http://www.tripleshift.com). My drummer and I started the group in order to get the Word outside the church walls and into places where people may not be down with opening a Bible or hearing a preacher. The music is what we call, "stealth" in that His message is in the lyrics, allowing people to get it on their own. Many have compared us to Creed. However I've probably got a good 50 pounds on Scott Stapp! :grin:

Bottom line is that the contract sounds way to similar to "doctrine" and doctrine equates to "religion".

IMHO, religion is defined as what I can do for God. I follow Christ because of what He has already done for me.

God bless.

Joe Faraldi

All spiritual aspects aside... From a purly business standpoint, an employer has the right to set the job requirements, terms and conditions of employment and the compensation for the job, the individual has the right to make the decision of whether or not those requirements, terms and compensation are acceptable.

With that in mind, this church is not doing anything different from lots of major companies that have exclusivity contracts. Some companies even stipulate that you cannot work for a competitor even after you leave for "x" amount of time.

That being said, personally, I would probably not accept the terms as they are listed here, but would be interested in finding out the reasons for the restrictions. It might make a difference.

Not criticism, but clarification:

doctrine equates to "religion". IMHO, religion is defined as what I can do for God.

Doctrine (Lat) = "that which is taught". You are filled with doctrine, and your church inDOCTRINates you every week (or it should). If you have no doctrine, you don't know what you're about.

Titus 2:1
I Timothy 4:16

+1 Faraldi's comments! See post and the link in # 42, above.

Wow .... scary.

I thought churchs promoted an individuals freedoms with respect to God.
I thought a person donated his time and talent to perform in a church band?
Are you being paid? Maybe a contract would be in order then but for for free
... I'd consider another church.

I agree, ravindave_3600. Just as in the Jewish faith, the rabbi (literal translation - "teacher") our pastors, priests, deacons, etc. should also serve in that role in order to provide a basis of teaching that is only from Scripture and nothing from the world. Fully agree.

I see the "church" as the body of Believers and the person or persons standing at the pulpit is simply a member of that body.

My concern is that if that person, or really ANY person within the Body starts to misuse doctrine in order to place worldly requirements on one another, we then begin to start caring more about the created and not about the Creator.

Romans 1:25

I guess that's what I was getting at in my post.

(Man, I LOVE this forum!!!)

Great to meet you, brother!! I appreciate the discussion.

Joe Faraldi

Not criticism, but clarification:



Doctrine (Lat) = "that which is taught". You are filled with doctrine, and your church inDOCTRINates you every week (or it should). If you have no doctrine, you don't know what you're about.

Titus 2:1
I Timothy 4:16

Just to keep things from going too far here. I do not have any detail beyond the simple statement my friend made, I haven't seen him in the week since OP. I will see him tonight and I will talk with him more about what he said. I have never heard of this from any church and that is why I asked this group.

He may have misunderstood what they are requiring and I'm sure I don't know enough details yet.

Hey sax4blues,

I hear ya. Folks can get real passionate on this subject.

...and believe me, I HAVE seen this (and similar stuff) happen with some churches. Some pretty interesting stuff out there.

Good original post to wake me up at work on a rainy day in Kansas.

Peace,
Joe

Just to keep things from going too far here. I do not have any detail beyond the simple statement my friend made, I haven't seen him in the week since OP. I will see him tonight and I will talk with him more about what he said. I have never heard of this from any church and that is why I asked this group.

He may have misunderstood what they are requiring and I'm sure I don't know enough details yet.

Don't post often, but this one hits close to home.

My wife and I have faith. It is a part of who we are that is carried where we go. You can't put labels, or limitations on that. I don't sit in at a blues jam and forsake that- faith is built on the insights that both mistakes and successes bring forth.

My wife and I do take invitations to lead worship at different churches- and I mean different. Inner city and mixed racial backgrounds all the way to bleached white suburban extragavanzas. We do this because we perform where we want, and do what we want. We're big boys and girls, and we travel in faith.

This attitude of church stipulations can get ugly, as many of you have already testified to. I've been guilty of the Merc thing on a rare occaision, and I don't like it. Sometimes I've taken gigs when the church knew I couldn't stay through the service. It's not a habit.

One church, however, went far beyond the call. A previous poster mentioned "getting reports about conflicting behaviors"... Two weeks after Christianity Today gave our album, a blue-rock all originals affair, 4 out of 5 stars, the church we rented our house from said that they got reports that we played in blues bars, and other places, and were no longer welcome to play in their church. Christianity Today, one of the world's best-selling Christian magazines, wrote a glowing review and praised the heart of what we were doing- "light in dark place"- while the church completely ignored it's sole purpose in existance.

Needless to say, my faith remains intact, and that church has crumbled under it's leadership. I've seen it time and again.

My $.02. Much love and peace to all the fellow TDPRI-er's for this great board.

BTW- Whiskeyneck is the name of a Sixty Watt Shaman song, not a social endeavor, so keep that in respect when posting about the faithfullness of someone who posts about church matters under such a name. The song is about witchhunts, if I remember correctly... :wink:

Yep, we've lost invitations to play at some church functions because we also play in bars and such.

Peace,
Joe

Don't post often, but this one hits close to home.

My wife and I have faith. It is a part of who we are that is carried where we go. You can't put labels, or limitations on that. I don't sit in at a blues jam and forsake that- faith is built on the insights that both mistakes and successes bring forth.

My wife and I do take invitations to lead worship at different churches- and I mean different. Inner city and mixed racial backgrounds all the way to bleached white suburban extragavanzas. We do this because we perform where we want, and do what we want. We're big boys and girls, and we travel in faith.

This attitude of church stipulations can get ugly, as many of you have already testified to. I've been guilty of the Merc thing on a rare occaision, and I don't like it. Sometimes I've taken gigs when the church knew I couldn't stay through the service. It's not a habit.

One church, however, went far beyond the call. A previous poster mentioned "getting reports about conflicting behaviors"... Two weeks after Christianity Today gave our album, a blue-rock all originals affair, 4 out of 5 stars, the church we rented our house from said that they got reports that we played in blues bars, and other places, and were no longer welcome to play in their church. Christianity Today, one of the world's best-selling Christian magazines, wrote a glowing review and praised the heart of what we were doing- "light in dark place"- while the church completely ignored it's sole purpose in existance.

Needless to say, my faith remains intact, and that church has crumbled under it's leadership. I've seen it time and again.

My $.02. Much love and peace to all the fellow TDPRI-er's for this great board.

BTW- Whiskeyneck is the name of a Sixty Watt Shaman song, not a social endeavor, so keep that in respect when posting about the faithfullness of someone who posts about church matters under such a name. The song is about witchhunts, if I remember correctly... :wink:

Hey, it's their praise band, and even if I don't get the requirement (which I personally don't) if he decides to play with them, it is what he will have to do. Probably, I would not. But then my church doesn't look at things that way.

Talked with my friend tonight and this is what I learned.

This church views playing in the band as a leadership position and don't want the worship leaders singing Highway to Hell Saturday night and leading worship on Sunday morning.

I personally believe an all or nothing contract is extreme, there is plenty of secular music with lyrics that are not detrimental to christian faith. I would not engage in this form of legalism and I worry what else is forbidden.

But this is his choice, he does not need to play in this church band and they don't make him stop his other music to be a church member and worship there.

S4B, thanks for getting back to us on this, telling "the rest of the story". I can understand their point and agree with you, too. Did he tell you what he's decided to do?

Nope .... just walk away .... remindes me of the episode of WKRP on censorship.

Jesus walked with thieves and the sick ... come to think of it the "church" censored him too....

Funny, 45 years of singing in the church choir and this subject has never come up.

Mike Bruce

They have their positions we have ours. Its all good. I don't think they are wrong in what they want and I don't think we would be wrong to reject that. There is a good amount of Liberty in Christ. Each local body is free to reflect this in different ways. I am often reminded of the story that Dr. J Vernon McGee told of his move to California from Texas.

The Californians were scandalized by the fact that he smoked cigarettes. But to him it was normal everyone in TX where he was from smoked. He in turn was scandalized by the fact the men and women went to the beach together. That was taboo in TX.

Neither had anything to do with salvation but each was something the local bodies had adopted as reflective of their walk with Christ.

This church has its standards, I won't knock them but won't imitate them either.

I would not engage in this form of legalism and I worry what else is forbidden.

This is not legalism, it is just the rules that this assembly has defined for those who choose to join the worship team. Legalism would be requiring some form of external behaviour to be essential for salvation, certainly not what this church sounds like it is doing. If you don't like it, then that's fine and go find somewhere else to worship. Be free in Christ, not entangled with unimportant issues. (Good to see you Peter!)

I think the reason might be that they don't want you playing in a bar on Saturday night and then in church on Sunday. While you might be a great Christian witness in the bar, many people will just see that a leader in the church was at the bar.



Of course.

Just like the Pharisees only saw that Jesus broke all sorts of their rules about propriety, like being around prostitutes and known collaborators (tax collectors), and doing various things they considered work on the Sabbath.

In other words, Jesus Himself would not have been welcome as a leader in that church.

Sad when substance is trumped by formality.

This is not legalism, it is just the rules that this assembly has defined for those who choose to join the worship team. Legalism would be requiring some form of external behaviour to be essential for salvation, certainly not what this church sounds like it is doing. If you don't like it, then that's fine and go find somewhere else to worship. Be free in Christ, not entangled with unimportant issues. (Good to see you Peter!)

Of course.

Just like the Pharisees only saw that Jesus broke all sorts of their rules about propriety, like being around prostitutes and known collaborators (tax collectors), and doing various things they considered work on the Sabbath.

In other words, Jesus Himself would not have been welcome as a leader in that church.

Sad when substance is trumped by formality.

We really can't get into this (and the issues raised in these two posts, as well as a couple of others) without knowing the exegesis behind their theology. That would be a theological discussion. Theological discussions are not allowed here, therefore the obvious syllogistic outcome is that we cannot actually discuss this part of the issue here. I think it unwise to describe unknown folks actions as "...substance (being) trumped by formality..." without their ability to defend their actions based on their theological underpinnings and understandings. We may not agree, but, this is not the forum to discuss that specific issue (per the rules).

Again, it is their church, their P&W team and they get to set the rules. As I stated in an earlier post, I would probably not sign the contract, but that is a personal decision by the friend of the OP, hopefully aided by prayer.

All spiritual aspects aside... From a purely business standpoint, an employer has the right to set the job requirements, terms and conditions of employment and the compensation for the job, the individual has the right to make the decision of whether or not those requirements, terms and compensation are acceptable.

With that in mind, this church is not doing anything different from lots of major companies that have exclusivity contracts. Some companies even stipulate that you cannot work for a competitor even after you leave for "x" amount of time.

This is all absolutely correct from a legal point of view. But a couple further points.

First, the basis for exclusivity contracts in business is economic. Typically, the restriction is to not work for a competitor. Here, there is no competition between the secular band and the church. While this restriction would no doubt pass legal muster (and yes, I'm an attorney), so long as it is during the term of employment only, at some point such clauses, when they cross the line into being repressive and not serving any valid economic interest of the employer, are not even valid from a legal standpoint, as they are in restraint of trade.

Second, there are all sorts of things churches can legally do that are nevertheless objectionable on all sorts of other grounds. This one, it seems to me, puts appearances and prejudices into a place of pre-eminence over understanding and compassion. To me it says that the church is more concerned with what other people's preconceived notions are, than whether their employee's actions are in some way immoral or deleterious to the church's teachings. Again, a morals clause could handle this vaild concern of the church adequately without pre-emptively interfering with the employee's economic and artistic freedoms.

Third, the music "business," particularly on the local level, is significantly different from other "businesses." It is frequently more an avocation than a profession, and is more (from my vantage anyhow) a calling than mere employment. Conversely, very typically, playing in more than one band is an absolute necessity for economic survival, if the player is instead attempting to make a living only as a musician. And we all know that a musician who plays in a variety of settings, more often than not, will grow as a musician and become better as a result, compared to cutting oneself off from other musicians. It seems to me that the church is cutting off its own nose to spite its foot here.

Black Magic Woman was written by peter Green of Fleetwood Mac after his girlfriend became a Chrisitian and changed her conduct...no more sex...yet he remained in love with her at least for a while (she had him under her 'spell').

So when I play BMW in a Christian setting, I explain the woman he's singing about has been changed by the grace of God and it is driving him crazy.....

I used to attend a Church in Hendersonville, TN from time to time. Many of you know Hendersonville is a bedroom community for the Nashville music industry. There was always a full band and choir made up of GREAT musicians - studio players, just in off the road with a major star, etc etc. IMHO, the spirit did indeed inhabit that Church.

Exclusivity is certainly much more about control that it is about music.

There are MANY churches that don't allow their ministers/priests/pastors to work outside the church. Its becoming less common but at one time it was extremly common. The expectation was that the pastor's wife would not work either. To see it applied to a musician seems unusual but if this church's philosophy is that the musicians are also called to ministry then this is not at all unheard of. It is applied in an unusual instance but it passes the test of historical practice. Remember that in the original post they required a 10 week course in church leadership also. It is a total life committment they are requiring. It's his to accept or reject like all calls whether spiritual or temporal.

A guitar player in my band wants to play in a church worship band. Because this church regards everyone serving as worship leaders they require completion of their ten week course of study. For me so far so good. But… now he tells us to play in their band he must sign a contract that he will not play in any other bands.???

I thought part of being a Christian is going out into the world to let your light shine, not get in here and lock the doors. My friend is a very active musician having played over 40 years. Now he will give all of that up to serve just one church. On the other side of the coin we played another members church picnic this summer where they paid us gas money and cases of good wine.

Anybody else experience similar situation?

If it's true,that IS just about the wackiest "doctrine" I've ever heard! The church I belong to has volunteer musicians. Yes, they have to be somewhat proficient on their musical instrument, and they have to be trained in "safe environment" classes every year, but it doesn't involve a "ten-week course of study"...sounds like their church is trying to indoctrinate your friend about their beliefs.
And to have to sign a contract about playing in other bands?

I would've run away as fast as I could!

Hey Jakeboy,
Where did you run across the story of Black Magic Woman? I had never heard that?
Regarding the topic at hand there is a fine line at times between freedom in Christ and causing a brother (or sister) to stumble by the lives we lead and the way we conduct ourselves. The whole contract idea sure seems like a good way to kill the freedom aspect and suck all of the love of Christ out of the room. Our lives have to be lived as we learn the Word together in love and are led by the Spirit who produces love and freedom in us. If by superficial outward regulations, we might as well just be pharisees.
Or not....

..."ten-week course of study"...sounds like their church is trying to indoctrinate your friend about their beliefs.

I would've run away as fast as I could!

I might be inclined to "run away as fast as I could!" from a church that does not have the priority of having people know what they believe. Come join my "church", don't worry about what we believe in, just start playing that guitar.

I ran across the story in some music mag several years ago....

As a worship team member of long duration, I too, have done the "backslide" into secular music. Wouldn't have done it any different...

My take? There is Christianity. Then there's "Church-ianity." I have enough trouble trying to keep the two basic commandments to love God wholly, and my neighbor as myself.

Seen plenty of rules...and the broken people left behind, as well. Like Abraham Lincoln, (and Phillip Yancey), I prefer a church that will first emphasize the "basics of love."

+1

Bravo. Extremely well said.

I'm with the rest of the naysayers of this thread. Don't do it.

I haven't ever heard of anything like this from anyone I know, a few years ago we had a drummer who played with us, another church, and in two garage type bands and he never caught any greif. It just isn't right.

A guitar player in my band wants to play in a church worship band. Because this church regards everyone serving as worship leaders they require completion of their ten week course of study. For me so far so good. But… now he tells us to play in their band he must sign a contract that he will not play in any other bands.???

I thought part of being a Christian is going out into the world to let your light shine, not get in here and lock the doors. My friend is a very active musician having played over 40 years. Now he will give all of that up to serve just one church. On the other side of the coin we played another members church picnic this summer where they paid us gas money and cases of good wine.

Anybody else experience similar situation?

I have never had any such experience or known anyone who has.

A ten week course? What for? If it has to do with church teachings or doctrine, your friend really needs another church. If it were me, not only would I not sign such a contract, I'd leave the church.

Are they offering financial compensation? If they are then I don't see the problem.

I don't see the problem with a 10 week course of study either. Not for a leader! If it was a 10 week course of study to become a member that would be a problem.

Leaders in our church, ministers, deacons, sunday school teachers, heads of organizations (choir director, men's/women's group presidents, usher president, etc.) are required to take our full new members course, 10 lessons, and a course in classroom/meeting management. They are all responsible for teaching and leading others so it is incumbent upon the church to train them in how to do it. You cannot be a leader without it. We don't extend this requirement to musicians or ushers or MEMBERS of any ministry but LEADERS have requirements for leadership that need to be met prior to being allowed to lead. It has reduced conflict and led to growth for our church overall.

BTW, most people don't realize that in many cases the sermons that are written by a minister/rabbi/imam, may not belong to he or she individually but are the property of the church that employs them. This may hold true for worship songs written by musicians who are financially compensated by a church for their work.

A ten week course? What for? If it has to do with church teachings or doctrine, your friend really needs another church.

Because this church requires him to be in a Bible study group with other leaders? Because this church wants to make sure he understands basic Christian doctrine? Because this church wants to make sure he knows what this particular church (be it Anglican, Baptist, Charismatic, Disciples of Christ, Evangelical Free, or any other initial) practices?

Please explain.

Because this church requires him to be in a Bible study group with other leaders? Because this church wants to make sure he understands basic Christian doctrine? Because this church wants to make sure he knows what this particular church (be it Anglican, Baptist, Charismatic, Disciples of Christ, Evangelical Free, or any other initial) practices?

Please explain.

Because he should already know this by regular attendance sitting in a pew listening to the preacher & following along in his Bible. This stuff is supposed to be spoken to all from the pulpit. Makes me wonder what's coming out of the pulpit if any of this has to taught in a special ten week leadership course. What you list is fundamental, ABC stuff any new baptized member is supposed to know. If a man hasn't shown any fruit of understanding fundamentals, he shouldn't be ordained as a deacon or any other leadership position. That's why.

My original position stands. I'm stickin' to my guns. My advice is the man in question not only refuse to sign said contract, but reconsider his church as well. Too many red flags.

Because he should already know this by regular attendance sitting in a pew listening to the preacher & following along in his Bible. This stuff is supposed to be spoken to all from the pulpit.

Good point. BTW, would the man need to attend a certain number of sermons to be ready to lead?

What you list is fundamental, ABC stuff any new baptized member is supposed to know.

"Supposed to know"? Ahhh, if only it were that simple.

I'm an orthodox, trinitarian Christian and in my area people come out of many, many backgrounds, including twisted scriptures, non-Christian religions, and no religion at all. They "know" what they hear for 40 minutes from the pastor on Sunday, but they also bring with them all sorts of other things they "know". A New Members' class (sometimes called Pastor's Class or even Christianity 101) gives them the opportunity to sort through those issues (including, Is there reincarnation? What should women wear to church? Why do we do communion this way? and, Do dogs go to heaven?) in a small-group setting. I've been in churches with 6 or even 12-week intro classes, and find it's much better to have educated members than confused sheep and little unity in the flock.

Now, before we get into theology and this thread gets shut down, let me turn things back to music: Any band is helped when new members (old ones, too!) are told how we do things, why we do them that way, and what's expected. Knowing the culture helps everyone work together more smoothly. What's more, those in "leadership" positions also need to know what's expected of "leaders". So, between what we believe, how we behave, and what leaders do I can see a 10-week course being worthwhile.

Suggested topics, each of which could be, in a theologically-permissive forum, supported by a 40-minute Bible study and some playing and prayer:
1. Why we do what we do / history and fundamental beliefs
2. Why we avoid and promote certain things both in the building and out in the world
3. Why we don't rag on the sound guy / Why we don't rag on the people who complain about volume / Who is authorized to do the aforementioned ragging
4. How we make sure "the crowd" gets the most out of their experience with us
5. What our clothing says about us
6. Why organs are the highest form of musical instrument
7. Hymns vs "choruses"
8. Alcohol at worship-team parties: Yea or Nay?
9. How we support each other on stage and off
10. Why the telecaster is God's anointed guitar

I could see being in that class and we'd all have interesting discussions and a great time for 10 weeks. :mrgreen:














OK, I think that's all I've got.

Good point. BTW, would the man need to attend a certain number of sermons to be ready to lead?

I would have no idea about a specific number. Ideally, a man should be in regular attendance for a period of time. It is in this time he demonstrates, growth in knowledge & understanding, and eventually a capacity to perform in some type of leadership role. The time in question depends on his showing the appropriate fruit. One man learns quickly & another fella... well he takes a little longer.

My apologies to one and all if I've rambled on too long & for the direction of the thread. I did not intend for any "theological" bend in the thread. I certainly do not want it locked on my account.

A practical question, if someone joins an organization, attends meetings/services for a period of time how do you know that he learned anything or has the skills and previous training/experience to teach/lead others? I don't ask this to be offensive but to understand how you measure the progress. This is an issue in churches, lodges, clubs, bands, just about any organization of people. Just sitting in the room and listening doesn't mean absorbtion and understanding take place in my limited experience.

We used to let regular members lead bible discussions, some of whom had been around for many years. Woo, did it get strange. Because of this we instituted the class to make sure that people got a basic understanding.

If there is another way to make sure that people are qualified, please, let me know since this method is cumbersome. I haven't found a better way but would LOVE to.

Thanks

"While you might be a great Christian witness in the bar, many people will just see that a leader in the church was at the bar."

Right where Jesus spent a lot of his time, with prostitutes, crooks and charlatans. Man, we have a lot of growing up to do in the church.


Wow! I am blessed to be playing guitar in an incredibly gracious, generous and life-flowing, life-giving church under a very talented and fun to work with worship pastor, with extremely talented, humble and loving musicians. I understand we are worship leaders, all, but contracts and training classes...hmmm.

"While you might be a great Christian witness in the bar, many people will just see that a leader in the church was at the bar."

Right where Jesus spent a lot of his time, with prostitutes, crooks and charlatans. Man, we have a lot of growing up to do in the church.



True, but Jesus wasn't there to entertain them...
I have no problem with people playing in bars, etc, but I think we all have a responsibility to let our "lights so shine before men".
Matthew 5:13-16

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

+1 on Sister Rosetta!!
Or for that matter Jerry Lee or Elvis, all of whom played both "secular" and "sacred" music.

Maybe they've been burned before and are maybe over-reaching just a bit as a result. I think we can all agree that being sober and playing in a music-based venue is one end of the spectrum and wouldn't cause a problem for most folks. The other end being the stereotypical knife & gun clubs with the band drinking as much as the patrons, naked folks dancing onstage, drug deals happening in the parking lot, and the police being called in on a nightly basis. Sad thing is, I've played both types of venues over the years, sometimes back-to-back. If you're not the one doing the booking whaddayado? Also, if you're in a smaller town, news travels fast and maybe the church is trying to prevent a repeat problem? Just my two cents.

I would think that very rarely do no compete clauses hold up. Especially if it is for a part time church gig. The player has a right to go out and ply his trade, as long as they are not somehow infringing on the rights of the Church by using their copyrighted music. On the other hand , if it is a commitment they are looking for so this guitarist is "On-Call", and playing in other bands would preclude him from playing with the Church at short notice then that is another issue. That I would think would fall into a category of being a contracted player. But the idea of the Church saying that you can not play in other bands? Sounds odd.

I would think that very rarely do no compete clauses hold up. Especially if it is for a part time church gig. The player has a right to go out and ply his trade, as long as they are not somehow infringing on the rights of the Church by using their copyrighted music.

No.

Its legality or enforceability would be a matter of the individual state's employment and antitrust laws. As a general rule it is well within an employer's legal rights to require that an employee not take other employment while he or she is employed by that employer.

I can say without hesitation that a non-compete like the one described in the OP would definitely be enforceable where I'm at, in Florida. Probably most other states as well. Of course, a prospective employee can refuse to work under those conditions, and if he or she does, the church will have to find someone else or cave.

Exclusivity comes with a price tag. Sounds like an opportunity for a steady job if the pay is right.

Too many loose canons runnin around from one church to another ....at least that's how I see it. That spawns a lot of envy,competition, and pride among musicians and churches. Find a church where you're sure there's true worship and let it rip. I personally wouldn't sign any contracts but I'd be loyal to my church,pastor,and worship leader if they asked me to be exclusive.


Taking a stand and being exclusive to Christ and His Church (and a particular local church body) in music worship seems like a true and solid thing to do. There will be other workers/harvesters in other fields....stick to your own field. Be true to your church,just like you would to your girl.;-)

Two reasons I can think of-

1- If you play in another band with less than Christian ideals, that could reflect poorly on your Church.

2- Merceneries. I know more than a few people who only go to Church in order to be able to play. They don't become involved in the Church in any way other than the band. They often belong to several churches at the same time. To my mind, this is to give the perception of glorifying God, but in reality feeding an ego.

I agree 100%

A church can be the weirdest club...

I don't think it's a problem if ANYBODY plays in the worship band, as long as they don't lead. I had an atheist friend play keys (the most spiritfilled of all instruments:mrgreen:) in one of our teams and everybody enjoyed it (including him (and Jesus))

I had an atheist friend play keys... and everybody enjoyed it (including... Jesus))

Didn't somebody say without faith it's impossible to please God? I thought I read that somewhere, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

A church can be the weirdest club...

I don't think it's a problem if ANYBODY plays in the worship band, as long as they don't lead. I had an atheist friend play keys (the most spiritfilled of all instruments:mrgreen:) in one of our teams and everybody enjoyed it (including him (and Jesus))

Some churches, mine included, consider anyone, ushers, greeters, music team,... to be a visible leadership position. We announce at the beginning of every service that visitors can talk with any of those people to learn more about our church.

Didn't somebody say without faith it's impossible to please God? I thought I read that somewhere, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Some churches, mine included, consider anyone, ushers, greeters, music team,... to be a visible leadership position. We announce at the beginning of every service that visitors can talk with any of those people to learn more about our church.

I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. My opinion is, that playing an instrument in a worship band is not spiritual at all (except when hendrix does it:lol:), so anybody can do it. And as I understand god, he looks on faith as a journey. When Jesus appointed his 12 they didn't believe he was the son of god, but still he wanted them to be with him and serve together.
just my opinion

I agree with the poster who called it cultish, it's a control issue

what's next ??? you can't read this, listen to that, watch this, you can't associate with "them"?

the issue is playing in that particular band comes with a big string (at least)...does your friend want to accept that string?

wow, it sounds as though they want your buddy to serve THEM.

I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. My opinion is, that playing an instrument in a worship band is not spiritual at all (except when hendrix does it:lol:), so anybody can do it. And as I understand god, he looks on faith as a journey. When Jesus appointed his 12 they didn't believe he was the son of god, but still he wanted them to be with him and serve together.
just my opinion

Except that the 12 had a 3 year course before being given that responsibility.

Playing an instrument in a worship band certainly is spiritual. Or should be!

When I firt came to a saving knowledge of Jeus, "I" decided that I no longer wanted to be in a bar band. No one told me I HAD to quit. Many offered their opinions which are always welcome.

It's been 19 years. In the last 7 I have gone to many Open Jam settings to play. They were usually all musicians that had to get up in the morning. Not much drinking and many of those jams stopped because the venue wasn't making enough to pay the house band.

I have been seeking a band situation for some time now. Trying to stay away from the typical Classic Rock Bar Band out till 3AM. Hoping for more of the Corporate, Private party type of band where people do drink but that the success of the band doesn't depend on the consumption of alcohol.

Most people know that I'm looking for a band and I constantly get encouraged to do so because people seem to think I have some talent and know that I enjoy it. I would never sign such a contract. Any good 10 week course is probably a good thing and should be "encouraged". Being told ANYTHING is a MUST smells of controlling cultish behavior to me.

There is also no mention of exactly what this 10 week course is. Would love more details.

The term "Secular" music scares me. It sounds like a word terrorists use. I can't believe this is in my hometown. As soon as the subject came up I would have found a new Church.

Wouldn't you be giving up your Free Will by being bound by contract not to play outside the Church? There are so many things wrong with a contract like this it is frightening.

How about a promise and a handshake?

A guitar player in my band wants to play in a church worship band. Because this church regards everyone serving as worship leaders they require completion of their ten week course of study. For me so far so good. But… now he tells us to play in their band he must sign a contract that he will not play in any other bands.???

I thought part of being a Christian is going out into the world to let your light shine, not get in here and lock the doors. My friend is a very active musician having played over 40 years. Now he will give all of that up to serve just one church. On the other side of the coin we played another members church picnic this summer where they paid us gas money and cases of good wine.

Anybody else experience similar situation?

That's pretty messed up. The church I'm in has musicians from all walks of life, including some professional opera singers in the choir. It doesn't really make sense that in order for a person to share their gifts with others in the church, that that should in any way restrict them from doing so in rest of their lives.

How would that be the right thing to do?