Capacitor Questions

How much difference is it going to make if I put in .022uf caps instead of .047uf? I heard that vitamin q's are great, just not sure which ones to buy...
I've just built a tele with 2 humbuckers & I'm using 500k pots. Not sure if the wood makes any difference for this question, but it is made of mahogany with a koa top. The neck is maple, rosewood fingerboard.
Just for fun, this is my guitar. I'm almost ready to install all the electronics, just need to sand and coat 1 more time.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/damike0619/img029.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/damike0619/img032.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/damike0619/img031.jpg

It's going to give the humbucker more treble with .022. the higher the number the less Treble.

Vitamin Q are pretty good from what I read. I use Russian caps myself and the Vitamin T's from Mojotone are very less in price as well.

The more you start turning the tone up less treble is dump to the ground.

The capacitor (within a normal range of capacitance used in guitars) has little effect on how the tone control works until you have turned it down near the counter clockwise (CCW) position. The tone pot is a load resistor that damps out the resonance of the pickup's inductance and the cable/amp capacitance.

Near max CCW, the tone cap tunes the resonance down to a low frequency. The bigger cap, the lower the resonance.

Please don't get consumed with the hype about Vitamin Qs and other "vintage" caps. It's snake oil at its worst. The only parameter that comes into effect in a guitar tone control cap is the CAPACITANCE of the capacitor. Go to Futurlec Electronics and buy some Mylar green or red weennies (http://www.futurlec.com/CapMylar.shtml) for 7 cents each.


If you use the tone controls near their max CCW positions, experiment with the capacitor value
If you use the tone controls near their max CW positions, experiment with pot values and no-load options

OK Terry tell us why these caps are so good?

They aren't. That's the point. The type of cap isn't important, just the value.

A pound of feces weighs the same as a pound of diamonds. A 0.022µF mylar cap is the same as any other 0.022µF cap of any material for a guitar tone application. There is no Rube Goldberg machine inside a capacitor.

There are many applications where the dielectric and construction really matters in capacitors. Power supplies, high voltage applications, coupling in tube amps, and any RF circuit is critical. The parasitics of a capacitor in a guitar are totally negligible.

I gather then Terry you've had good results with these caps then?

Yes I have. Here is a Radio Shack equivalent (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103629)if you want to pay 10x more to get it locally.

Well let me ask you this then what is opinion on the Paper in Oil Caps?

Well let me ask you this then what is opinion on the Paper in Oil Caps?

He already answered that....in fact it ought to be carved in stone somewhere:


"A pound of feces weighs the same as a pound of diamonds. A 0.022µF mylar cap is the same as any other 0.022µF cap of any material for a guitar tone application. There is no Rube Goldberg machine inside a capacitor"

mylar, paper in oil, ceramic....all the same in a guitar tone circuit.

Listen to Dr. Downs. The only difference between Russian military caps and the 25c ones is in the tolerance, meaning how close the value really is compared to what it says it is.

But the thing that matters more than anything else is what it sounds like, so cap type A that says it's a 0.047 uF but is actually 0.060 uF will sound subtly different to cap type B that is actually 0.037 uF, but not because A is PIO and B is orange drop.

That said, in the context of a guitar that costs over $1000 I don't really care if the cap costs $10 more than it should, it looks way cool. So long as it sounds good first.

It's a MOJO thing
Having a Paper in oil cap does make a guitar sound better.
In the sales pitch....

As for it in the actual tone circuit, youll never tell the difference in a double blind test with a chicklet and a PIO.


Terry is right.


cheers,Olaf.

.022 caps are used on a lot of Gibsons and should work well with your humbuckers. You could have some fun experimenting with a different value for each pickup. Maybe a .01 on the bridge and a .033 on the neck. You could take your pick switched to the middle position. I'm with Terry on the snake oil and would not use a NOS cap unless I was building a historic reproduction. I don't hear + or - 10% either. BTW, nice guitar!

Wot Roli and Terry have said.

Btw because hb have a higher impedance than sc they tend to be muddier and so prefer 22nF (that's 0.022µF). You might also try using a linear B500k volume 'cos hb seem to like a bit more load to keep them bright. But are they not Filtertrons? - they tend to be a bit brighter than other hb anyway. Try it and see.

Thanks everyone! I guess if I go the route Terry suggests & pay 7 cents per cap, it really doesn't matter what value I use. I think I'm going to play around a little. Unfortunately, I posted this question after I already ordered .22 Vitamin Q's & was trying to determine if it was a good choice. I was expecting more comments on tha cap value than the type of cap. I should have asked before I ordered...

It's all good. Experiment and have fun. I use clip leads to temporarily test them.

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips6/tool_tips/clip_leads.jpg

Very cool guitar by the way. :wink:

If I had a dollar for every time I've posted this, I could probably buy a nice steak dinner.

Below is the dreaded 503Z ceramic disk capacitor.

http://terrydownsmusic.com/Archive/CeramicDisk503Z.jpg

503 = 0.05µF
Z = tolerance +80/-20%

They all seem to be on the high side. At +80% this means the capacitance could be as high as 0.09µF !!! If you change that out with a 0.05µF that is +/-10%, the tone control will sounds very different. I believe that is why some folks get tricked into thinking the vintage caps are better. The are often closer to their marked value.

Fender went way cheap using these wide tolerance caps. Resistor and component manufacturers yield varing product. The sell the more precise part for higher dollar, and they practically give the ones away that are far off.

Yes I have. Here is a Radio Shack equivalent (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103629)if you want to pay 10x more to get it locally.

Yeah I have Radio Shack near by that sells these.

A pound of feces weighs the same as a pound of diamonds. A 0.022µF mylar cap is the same as any other 0.022µF cap of any material for a guitar tone application. There is no Rube Goldberg machine inside a capacitor.

while I agree with this post and the one below it, I should be pointed out that like caps of different construction...
One of these "pounds" can sold for a "feces" load of cash while the other you can't even give away.

that said. your second post while again I agree I would like to point out that a "Smoother" action of the tone control can be achieved by useing Mylar over say Ceramics. and that I have seen ( O-scope) a similar further "smoothing" when useing say a Auri-cap high resolution but that was also coupled with the addition of a higher value pot resistance.

My personal fav is a 1 meg linear pot with a .1 auri-cap.. very smooth with a bit of upper mid attenuation and the unique ability to get a sortof Mid boost/bite control if you use the tone control backed off to about 7-8 as your normal tone.

just my .02

.........

I would like to point out that a "Smoother" action of the tone control can be achieved by useing Mylar over say Ceramics. and that I have seen ( O-scope) a similar further "smoothing" when useing say a Auri-cap high resolution but that was also coupled with the addition of a higher value pot resistance.

.........

Very respectfully Bruce, it appears you have consumed the snake oil from Auri-cap.

I do agree that using a 1meg pot will give smoother control, but there is nothing about the Auri cap that will make that difference.

Thanks for kind comments on the guitar...
It's my 1st build & I was very ambitious! There is no piece of wood on this guitar that I didn't start from scratch, so it has been a fun adventure! I'll admit that I was afraid to carve the neck after I had already inlayed the fingerboard and glued it to the neck, but it wasn't as hard as I imagined it would be...
BTW, after I get my Vitamin Q's in the mail and try them out with the clip leads & play around with different, cheaper caps, I may have some Vitamin Q's for sale... :wink:

Er, I got a switch in one guitar which I can use to swap over to different caps.
I cannot hear a blind bit of difference between finest polyester and a tested same value ceramic, nor can I see anything when I analyse the spectra in CoolEdit.

I bought a lucky bag of ceramics from Tandy (Radio Shack) years ago and I haven't run out yet, but I will admit to using mylar or better in my guitars because they are more consistent. I always use an audio or log pot for tone because I find them to have a more usable gradual range, whereas the linear type give me nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, mud. But hey, ymmv.

There is some difference in frequency response in cap types but only when you get into r.f. at vhf and uhf, I'm reliably informed that ceramics become useless then, but to 20kHz audio... ?

Er, I got a switch in one guitar which I can use to swap over to different caps.
I cannot hear a blind bit of difference between finest polyester and a tested same value ceramic, nor can I see anything when I analyse the spectra in CoolEdit.

I bought a lucky bag of ceramics from Tandy (Radio Shack) years ago and I haven't run out yet, but I will admit to using mylar or better in my guitars because they are more consistent. I always use an audio or log pot for tone because I find them to have a more usable gradual range, whereas the linear type give me nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, mud. But hey, ymmv.

There is some difference in frequency response in cap types but only when you get into r.f. at vhf and uhf, I'm reliably informed that ceramics become useless then, but to 20kHz audio... ?


Big +1

I have been using the cheapo chicklets from radio shack on my builds and they r working just fine !! I have squandered my money on the vitamin Q's and so on but have learned a thing or 2 since !!

After reading this post I was curious about the caps that I had for my upcoming Tele project. I tested two orange drop .047 and one Mylar/Film .047cap. One of the OD caps tested .046 the other OD cap and the Mylar/Film cap tested .045 respectively. I guess It would be good to measure them so that you know exactly what the cap measure so if you like what your are hearing you can reproduce it with the exact same value of cap theoretically (I know there are other variables).

Probably good idea it sounds like tone caps and Pots don't read what they are supposed to be. I've had pots that have read 450K to 480K. Probably won't hurt for me to invest in Multimeter that read Capacitors.

It is funny that you mention pots. Out of about 10 500k alpha pots only one measured 500k. The rest were somewhere at or below 490. Thanks a lot guys now I am putting the multimeter on everything.:eek: :wink:

P.S. If you are going to get a multimeter tazzboy get a quality digital auto-ranging one. They are worth the money.

Dont really know anything about capacitors but that is a nice guitar!
I like the inlay! :P

P.S. If you are going to get a multimeter tazzboy get a quality digital auto-ranging one. They are worth the money.

I plan to do just that.

If you get a multimeter that measures capacitance, you will need to know about the capacitance offset and subtract it from the measurement. The capacitance meter function will read the capacitance of the leads and the internal parasitic capacitance with nothing connected. Get the leads in the same position as you will when probing the cap and write down the reading. That is referred to as the capacitance offset. Probe the cap, and subtract the offset value.

I don't suppose you have article written up on how do to it correctly Terry?

I figured the post above would be self explanatory.

One of the coolest things about Telecasters is that you can change out the pots and caps without lifting the pickguard or loosening the strings. Absolutely no excuse not to buy a dozen different caps and try them. If you keep the soldering iron hot, you might get six caps per hour tested. I always rub the screws over a bit of bar soap to lube them a bit so I don't grind out the screw hole. I always put something under the flipped over tone controls when soldering to prevent "aging" marks on the finish.

Personally, I like a tone pot and cap that makes a wah sound when rotated. The pot value will make a bit of difference, the cap value will make a different amount of rotation of the pot. Unless you play mostly CCW, the cap value isn't that critical. Matching the tone change per turn to another guitar might be comforting though.

Darned Teles don't have numbers on the knobs. You've got to use your ears.

Darned Teles don't have numbers on the knobs. You've got to use your ears.

Yes - exactly :wink:

No but Les Paul's do.

If you get a multimeter that measures capacitance, you will need to know about the capacitance offset and subtract it from the measurement. The capacitance meter function will read the capacitance of the leads and the internal parasitic capacitance with nothing connected. Get the leads in the same position as you will when probing the cap and write down the reading. That is referred to as the capacitance offset. Probe the cap, and subtract the offset value.


So terry what tolerance % would you recommend for caps?

I have set there and swapped caps with my LP using aligator clips. Ceramic, Hovland, Jensen, old Spragues, Orange Drops, Sozo's and there was an audible diffence with each brand. Of course the value is more important as is tolerances, but I wanted to find out for myself what all these caps were about and so I did.

I've read that Caps, like pots, need to be at least +/- 10% tolerance?

So terry what tolerance % would you recommend for caps?

It doesn't matter what tolerance is as long as it's the value that suits you.

I've read that Caps, like pots, need to be at least +/- 10% tolerance?

They don't need to have any particular tolerance except for it's nice know the actual value is within +/-10 of what's marked on the part if you can't measure it.

Like that 0.05µF ceramic disk I posted earlier that had the +80% tolerance. It would work fine if it was 0.09µF and 0.09µF was what you liked to hear.

OK that's what I wanted to know.

I have set there and swapped caps with my LP using aligator clips. Ceramic, Hovland, Jensen, old Spragues, Orange Drops, Sozo's and there was an audible diffence with each brand. Of course the value is more important as is tolerances, but I wanted to find out for myself what all these caps were about and so I did.

I very much suspect you were hearing a difference in capacitance, in as much as you were using clips which would have a greater effect than the variance in value between the caps. You really do need to solder caps in as I did in the post above. Example with a capacitance meter, whether or not you use the leads or plug the cap into the socket; the meter has to be zeroed if leads are used - the lead connections alter the capacitance by a significant amount.

My 5-way switch was a homebrew varitone on my homebrew jagstang. Currently it allows me to switch between a TBX, no-tone-control, and a conventional A250k with a choice of caps (currently 22,47,100). For my cap type experiments I used 22nF in ceramic, orange, mylar, finest audiophile polyester, and anything else I could find. All caps tested within 22+/-1nF. The tone pot was turned down to 1 (I locked the pot by packing washers under the knob) just off mud (the position at which you can hear a difference between different value caps) and recorded the same short riff straight into the computer. CoolEdit has a spectral analyser, allowing for the fact that I cannot play the same piece twice, they all looked and sounded pretty much the same.

...... the lead connections alter the capacitance by a significant amount.

.


The leads on my capacitance meter (~2ft) increase the reading by 25pF when plugged in. When I stretch out both leads together so they touch each other, I get a 75pF increase. Next to a 0.05µF or 0.022µF, thats quite insignificant. As long as the clip leads are not twisted together, I can't see it making any difference.

I believe the difference would be in the capacitance variation of each capacitor.

That's a pretty cool test you did jefrs. It would be interesting to inject broadband noise into a test-injector pickup that was sufficiently damped as to not resonate with the noise source impedance. It could somehow be mounted over the pickup on the guitar.

Hey Terry let ask you this question. Does Matching Capacitors is important as matching Pots or is that all smoke and mirrors?

Hey Terry let ask you this question. Does Matching Capacitors is important as matching Pots or is that all smoke and mirrors?

I don't understand your question? Do you mean matching volume pot with the tone pot? Matching one capacitor with another????

I don't understand your question? Do you mean matching volume pot with the tone pot? Matching one capacitor with another????

Yes sir.

There is nothing to matching volume pot and tone pot. It's the overall load to the pickup that makes a difference. A tone pot turned max CW is nothing more than a capacitively coupled load resistor. The volume pot is a load resistor. It's the parallel equivalent of the volume pot, tone pot, and the amp input resistance that damps the resonance between the pickup and the cable/amp.

With both controls turned up, (2) 500k pots in parallel with the amp impedance of lets say 500k, would be 500k/3 or 166k.

A 250k volume and a 1 meg tone and a 500k amp would be 142k.

OK and what about matching capacitors any difference there or smoke and mirrors?

Match which two capacitors?

.022/400v to another .022/400v Cap

You mean in two separate guitars?

More like this

http://cgi.ebay.com/Les-Paul-SG-Pre-Wired-CTS-Matched-Pot-Harness-Kit-L-K_W0QQitemZ120458873867QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar_A ccessories?hash=item1c0be88c0b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Ludicrous. Snake oil. Perhaps you may want a different tone cap for the different pickup just like painting another bedroom a different color.

I don't know how the seller of that sleeps at night. There is nothing magic about a 500.+k pot. That is total hype and BS.

Every different amp and cable you plug into will change all this.

The NOS silver plated copper wire is BS too. The guitar is a high impedance circuit. You could connect those pots together with 1 ohm resistors. The copper is the conductor and the plating is worthless. It will tarnish eventually (silver sulfate). It won't hurt anything, but it serves no value either.

Thanks Terry for the info. You are a fountain of knowledge.

Ludicrous. Snake oil. Perhaps you may want a different tone cap for the different pickup just like painting another bedroom a different color.

I don't know how the seller of that sleeps at night. There is nothing magic about a 500.+k pot. That is total hype and BS.

Every different amp and cable you plug into will change all this.

The NOS silver plated copper wire is BS too. The guitar is a high impedance circuit. You could connect those pots together with 1 ohm resistors. The copper is the conductor and the plating is worthless. It will tarnish eventually (silver sulfate). It won't hurt anything, but it serves no value either.

The Copper wire I have seen in a 1970 Gibson Les Paul Custom this before Gibson went to metal plate for Ground the pots.

Very respectfully Bruce, it appears you have consumed the snake oil from Auri-cap.

I do agree that using a 1meg pot will give smoother control, but there is nothing about the Auri cap that will make that difference.

I respect that your entitled to your opinion as am I.

My only rebutte is that I could not "repeat" those O-scope results with any OTHER cap reguardless of type or manufacture, and I assure you that I DID try hard. So in this case, the snake oil was palatable... was the miniscule gain economically viable.. probably not.. but I like knowing that my guitars have the very best that is available and that meets with MY standards...

it's only an extra 5 bucks. so where does that figure in the scheme of a 3k guitar?

The leads on my capacitance meter (~2ft) increase the reading by 25pF when plugged in. When I stretch out both leads together so they touch each other, I get a 75pF increase. Next to a 0.05µF or 0.022µF, thats quite insignificant. As long as the clip leads are not twisted together, I can't see it making any difference.

I believe the difference would be in the capacitance variation of each capacitor.

That's a pretty cool test you did jefrs. It would be interesting to inject broadband noise into a test-injector pickup that was sufficiently damped as to not resonate with the noise source impedance. It could somehow be mounted over the pickup on the guitar.

I have observed that the leads and clip contact do have an effect and so is probably not an ideal method of attachment for comparing capacitors.

I was just curious about the hoopla over 'special' caps, and as I had a ready test bed... it was some time ago, unfortunately I deleted the rather large files in a clear out. It might be interesting to repeat with a more objective test. Perhaps mock up the controls on the bench and inject pink noise or something and analyse that. I don't know that a pickup and volume is necessary to demonstrate the effect of the capacitor in the tone control. CoolEdit can be used as a tone generator as well as an analyser (fttdk CoolEdit is/was a waveform recorder and editor).

I respect that your entitled to your opinion as am I.

Thanks very much for the response was well as the respect. I'd like to state my postings are not opinions. They come from 3 decades of electronics engineering experience.



..................... but I like knowing that my guitars have the very best that is available and that meets with MY standards...
it's only an extra 5 bucks. so where does that figure in the scheme of a 3k guitar?

Absolutely!! :smile: I can't argue with that.

so im going to hijack this thread alittle.
i was wondering, someone mentioned earlier that if you mostly use it at max CW, you should change pot values. I was just wondering how exactly the pot values effect tone.
and has anyone tried fenders "grease bucket" tone circuit? what does it actually do?

Thanks very much for the response was well as the respect. I'd like to state my postings are not opinions. They come from 3 decades of electronics engineering experience.


Awesome! I too am a 30 year vet of the EE profession. though I used it more for my own business instead of working for someone else.

But i'll take this as proof positive that even EEs don't always see Eye to Eye.

you may even have seen some of my guitars, effects and amps out there.

so im going to hijack this thread alittle.
i was wondering, someone mentioned earlier that if you mostly use it at max CW, you should change pot values. I was just wondering how exactly the pot values effect tone.
and has anyone tried fenders "grease bucket" tone circuit? what does it actually do?

I have tried the grease-bucket and imo its not much better than standard. I was trying to find a tone control that would work well for both sc and hb and imo the TBX does that. The grease-bucket has an A250k and two caps of 100nF and 22nF effectively in series (which reduces the capacitance to 18nF) and also a 3.9k fixed resistor which keeps the bottom setting just off the mud. I think it is intended to give a more useful range without the muddy end, I was not impressed.

Good gosh Gerty what a gash,it has come to my attention,that too much has come to my attention after reading all the posts concerning caps,I always thought CW meant Country Western and CCW meant Cool Country Western,boy was I ever wrong.
Seriously though I never realized that caps played such a big part in a guitar's tone,I have a guitar(Ibanez Artcore) that sounds like crap no matter what the knob settings are or what amp it is plugged into,seems the bridge HB has a 47 cap and the neck HB has a 223 cap.all pots are 500K,now in a hollow body it is no easy task to test various caps,is there some rule of thumb one can use to make a very sick guitar sound good using the right caps?

I removed the tone control on my Tele. There's a cap to ground switch in there for a darker tone if for some reason I wanted it, but I never do.

For me, parts are mostly just parts, though. As long as you're not using the cheapest of the cheap, I don't think it really makes much difference one way or the other.

[QUOTE=Uma Floresta;1996765]I removed the tone control on my Tele. There's a cap to ground switch in there for a darker tone if for some reason I wanted it, but I never do.
May I ask what a cap to ground switch is?

[QUOTE=Uma Floresta;1996765]I removed the tone control on my Tele. There's a cap to ground switch in there for a darker tone if for some reason I wanted it, but I never do.
May I ask what a cap to ground switch is?

It's exactly what it sounds like - a capacitor that connects the signal from the pickups to ground. The larger the cap value, the more high end will be cut off. It's kind of like a tone control that just has one preset setting.

[QUOTE=Sniper1;1996781]

It's exactly what it sounds like - a capacitor that connects the signal from the pickups to ground. The larger the cap value, the more high end will be cut off. It's kind of like a tone control that just has one preset setting.

Your tone control is totally disconnected,if so how do you control your tone?

[QUOTE=Uma Floresta;1996812]

Your tone control is totally disconnected,if so how do you control your tone?

when the switch is on, the cap is connected to the circuit, when its off, it isnt.

[QUOTE=Sniper1;1996907]

when the switch is on, the cap is connected to the circuit, when its off, it isnt.

Yes. Though as I said, I don't really use it. My pickup blend knob works well as a tone control, though.

Having built a few tube amps before I learned to play guitar, I always knew a cap (especially a coupling cap) can make a significant difference it overall sound character- ditto for HiFi speaker crossovers, power supplies, and such. On a whim years ago, I tried putting in some nice Jensen 0.22uF coupling caps in my guitar (the caps were once reserved for a tube amp project), and I could not tell any difference in sound over the el cheapo cap (of exact same value). One was PIO, and the other was a metalized poly. Then I tried to compare those with a basic ceramic and still no notable changes occurred. This puzzled me back then, but the reason is obvious. The tone caps in a guitar do NOT play the same role as the other, more critical applications.

My advice is that if you must experiment with caps- try different values of the same brand, because that is about the only character change your gonna get. Save money and soldering time, and pick a cheap reliable cap. Heck, play with the amp components more- that will keep you busy! When all else fails, learn to play better. As a newbie, I learned this real quick: A great guitarist can make just about ANY guitar/amp sound good with his fingers.