Lifespan of good power tubes?

I pulled out an old receipt last night and realized I've been playing the same set of Visseaux 6V6's in my SFDR since 1990.
I've played about 30 4+ hour gigs a year plus weekly / bi-weekly rehearsals that whole time.
I'm thinking it might be time for a re-tube, however the amp still sounds strong to me, and I don't want to blow the money if I'm not going to get an improved tone for it.
Any thoughts on how to check this out or what the "standard" time is for replacements?

Thanks!

I replace my power tubes, and get a bias, once a year. Even when I don't think it needs it, I do it anyway, because I am consistently amazed by how much better it sounds when I get it back. Now, it sounds like I play alot more often than you, so your tubes will probably last longer, but I think 14 years is a bit much. I do a little over 200 dates a year, plus some rehearsals and sessions, so my tubes get ALOT of cook-time.

Change them, you'll hear a difference.


Jake

Thanks Jake...I mis-typed when I wrote my question..it's been 4 years on the tubes, not 14...
It sounds like I may be able to benefit from a change.


cheers..

I agree with Jake -- replace tubes regularly. I'm an old Electronic's Technician (one of the last of the "tube" era) - and new tubes with fresh biasing do make a difference.

I have a Blues Jr. and between me and my son, it's cranked about 3 hours every day. Unfortunately, the BJ has fixed bias -- and it's HOT -- so those little tubes are cooking away at themselves every moment the red light is glowing. Someday I'll do the adjustable bias mod on it when I get around to it.

Also, have fun with "retubing" when you do it. You don't have to use the same kind of tubes -- and substituting different kinds of tubes can change your tone in a pleasant way. For instance, I have 7025 in the 12AX7 V1 slot of my BJ -- which gives the amp a more 60ish Fender sound.

I have whole box of unused tubes, cause I just play with them, swapping them in and out of the amp, until I get the sound I like. Fun stuff for an old electronics weenie like me.

Go to the GROOVE TUBES website and check it out -- loads of information on tubes. I buy all my tubes from them too. They've really helped me out alot.

Have you ever tried a 5751 in the V1 position? I have one in my Pro jr. Gives a very nice three dimensional sound...

Sometimes tubes last surprisingly long. Even if you replace them now, don't toss them! Maybe you can have them tested on a proper tube tester. I get a few years out of a set of power tubes, but I don't gig once a week.

Take anything you read on the Groove Tubes site with a grain of salt. Pittman is a well known hypemeister and BS artist. GT is well known for misinformation.

Don't pay double for the same exact tubes you can get elsewhere, it's all hype and BS.

If you need 6V6s, call Bob at Eurotubes and get a pair of the new JJs.

Tremo wrote:

Take anything you read on the Groove Tubes site with a grain of salt. Pittman is a well known hypemeister and BS artist. GT is well known for misinformation.

Very serious allegation and personal attack I'd say. Do you have any specifics to back such an accusation up? I don't even know who "Pittman" is -- I deal with Myles Rose in their Special Applications Group and I trust him. He has given me great advice.

But if you make an accusation in public about someone being a "BS Artist" -- for everyone to read -- you're besmirching the reputation of that individual and I think you ought to offer some proof and specifics about why you're making the allegation. I think that you OWE that to the guy you're trashing don't you?

We've talked about this before in another forum haven't we Tremo?

PS: I have nothing to do with GT (Myles is the only guy I know there and I've never met him face to face). I also like the folks at KCANOSTUBES.COM. Eurotubes, I can't speak for -- but if you say they're good too I'm sure they are.

Again, remember, All You Need Is Love Man.

If you know anything about Groove Tubes...and deal with them directly...I can't fathom not knowing who Aspen Pittman is, since he founded the company and is featured...by name...in much of their marketing literature.

The point is - "Groove Tubes" is a company, not a product. As far as tubes go, they have a process, not a product, and that process has been widely discussed as more "smoke and mirrors" than anything else. You *will* pay more for the same tubes you can get elsewhere - Groove Tubes claims it's their "process" and the supposed fact that they weed out a lot of rejects. Many techs feel the added cost is simply a way of paying for their expensive marketing.

I have to say Tremo and I firmly agree - there's a lot of hype about Groove Tubes, and I've had no better luck with them than with buying cheapo Sovteks from New Sensor. Same stuff.

An opinion can be held about GT and it can be valid -- but when you single out one guy and call him a "BS Artist" (let's face it -- are you condoning name calling Silverface?) then that is a personal attack that I can't agree with unless it's backed up with specifics.

I stand on that opinion and respect yours -- but respectfully disagree with it. There need to be limits placed upon attacks in this kind of forum and I, for one, am willing to stand up for respect for the individual -- no matter who he is. Sorry you don't feel the same way.

Now, as far as what you think about GT, it's YOUR opinion -- and your opinion only -- which means it's no more valid than mine or anyone elses.

Dood, where have you been for the past several years?

All this has been discussed ad nauseum for a very very long time. This is very old news. Everybody who knows WTF they're doing knows very well about GT, Pittman, technical misinformation, marketing hype, BS, secret mystery mojo, relabeled tubes, stratospheric prices, "exclusive" designs that are not exclusive, etc..... on and on.

If you want to get your feathers ruffled, that's your problem, not mine. If you want to patronize and endorse GT, that's also your business, more power to ya. But if you do it on a public forum, expect similar responses from those who know better.

I invite you to the Tubes forum over on the Amp Workshop web page, you'll get a good education over there. Several threads involving GT.

http://pub58.ezboard.com/bampworkshop

All these years? I've been a member just shy of 3 months less than you.

GT -- and others -- screen tubes -- there's no mystery in that or BS. They haven't misrepresented their product. They tell you exactly where the tubes are made and I challenge you to site where they have tried to indicate otherwise.

As far as "screening" tubes goes -- I believe it is a valid service, since in my life I have personally seen A LOT of bad tubes come out of boxes. When someone, GT or anyone else says they get 50% rejects for this batch run of tubes or that one -- my experience tells me that is not such a far-fetched claim.

Now, I'm not demanding that you take my opinion as the gospel here -- my opinion is no more valid than yours. However, when you single out an individual, by name, and call him a "BS Artist" -- that is problematic from my standpoint and think you have crossed the line of acceptable arguement. I have no problem with your opinion of GT, whatsoever. They provide a service that many, including myself are willing and able to pay for. This is obviously not true in your case and you are entitled to that -- you may even be right. But you could be wrong too.

Again, no problem with your opinion on GT -- say whatever you want about them. The problem I have is with the personal attack and name calling. I don't think they should be tolerated here. I really could care less who disagrees with me on that point.

Tremo wrote:

I invite you to the Tubes forum over on the Amp Workshop web page, you'll get a good education over there. Several threads involving GT.

http://pub58.ezboard.com/bampworkshop

Actually I did visit that board and found the following post from "Tremo" (this was just posted -- cut and pasted from that board) ...

Jeez, there's a n00b over on TDPRI who is cheerleading for GT. I thought by now everyone was wise to GT, I guess I was wrong.

Tremo - Traditional Blues in the California Gold Country

I assume that I'm the "n00b" that you're referring to. Tremo, can you make an articulate point anywhere without resorting to name calling?

My point is made, and there is nothing else to be said from my end. I'm sorry I reacted strongly to what I perceived as a personal attack against someone else but I think a standard of conduct ought to be set on this board. I highly recommend that everyone check out the board that Tremo references above -- it's an anarchist board and personal attacks are thrown about with impunity there. That is why we should keep such attacks out of the TDPRI. Again, my humble opinion only -- everyone can make up their own minds. If it sounds as if I'm pontificating here or demanding that everyone adopt an ethical standard -- mine -- then I apologize. That is not my intention.

I highly recommend that everyone check out the board that Tremo references above -- it's an anarchist board and personal attacks are thrown about with impunity there.

Anarchist? Hardly anarchy there. Actually it's rather calm, you make it sound like a huge flame war, which couldn't be further from reality. If you want anarchy, go to AGA on the usenet, now that's anarchy. OTOH, the Amp Workshop is perhaps the most open and uncensored board on the net for this stuff, with some of the most knowledgable and experienced techs for amp related issues. You can call a spade a spade, and that's why those guys hang there. You have a problem with free speech? Lots of good info there. Lots of myth and hype debunking. If something is good, it's so stated. If something is a POS, it's also plainly stated. Also, those in this industry who market their products with outlandish hype and BS, or bogus claims, are similarly identified. Guys who hack/butcher mod amps are identified, as are the guys who do great work. No beating around the bush. If you want STRAIGHT and direct technical info, that's the place to get it. If you ask a question there, you get an informed to-the-point answer, none of the guessing that goes on at some other boards. But maybe that level of directness isn't for everybody. I guess some people like certain subjects and opinions to be banned or soft-pedaled. For those, there's the FDP.

Maybe you like to be a cheerleader for GT, that's certainly your right to do so. However, it's also you who seem to be raising the most stink over criticism of Pittman. I find it very puzzling how you can be so gung-ho on GT and yet not know who Pittman is. He's Mr. GT. It's his company. Regardless, if you're going to cheerlead for GT, you can expect to also see criticism of his pricing and advertising claims, and methods.

Now I will give credit where credit is due. GT usually does a good job of screening out the duds. Pittman himself is one helluva marketer, he has been very effective and successful in promoting his products to the uninformed masses. But IMO, and also in the opinions of most informed techs, he does it with a LOT of hype and questionable claims. There's nothing special about his stuff that warrants the high prices. You can get the identical tubes from others for much less money, and GT is not the only remarketer out there who does a good job screening their tubes. Ruby Tubes also does a very good job, sells the same tubes as GT, for less money. Ditto for suppliers like Lord Valve, Ned Carlson, Uncle Spot, and Eurotubes, to name a few.

I also encourage folks here to check out the AW, they might just like what they see. Whatever floats your boat.

Posting quotes from other boards...that have different policies...is really bad form IMO. A personal attack about a personal attack. Huh?

Tremo says "BS"...I say "marketing hype". Same statement in a different package.

GT *is* widely discussed...and after years of reading (and using/screening tubes) it looks to me as if serious guitar amp techs don't take them real seriously.

Tremo may get a bit fired up about the GT subject, but he's certainly not alone in his opinions.

I hope I'm not fanning the flames here, but I don't think this point was really addressed, and it seems to be what started it all...

Groove Tubes buys tubes, screens them, rates them, relabels them, and sells them to you at a huge markup. To many people, that's a pretty shady business practice.

Any reputable seller of tubes will screen them to make sure that they're not selling bad merchandise, and TheTubeStore.com even rates the power tubes so you can buy a new set with the same rating and not have to re-bias. Many, many good tube sellers will give you lots of advice about tubes and all of the technical info you can devour soyou can get the tubes you need for the sound you want. Not only do they offer free education, but good prices on their tubes. Bob at Eurotubes is one example. Groove Tubes overcharges and charges for their knowledge, because that's what they put into their process.

cg73cmc, I think that Tremo and Silverface started off, at least, trying to be helpful. The whole thing got off track pretty quickly, but I'm sure that it wasn't their original intent.

Frankly Tremo can make statements about Mr Pittman due to the fact the said person uses his name on everything. GT has always been over-hyped and over priced. relabeling Chinese(inferior) tubes etc.
Tubes fail and GT tubes failure rate is no better than KCA ,New Sensor, The Tube Store. The big difference is you pay a lot for GT putting their silkscreening on the tubes.

Silverface and Tremo know their stuff. As far as membership to this board. Those guys have been members long before the board change last year. That's what accounts for everyones "recent" membership.

Thanks Stan, but I don't claim to be an "expert" - even though Tremo and I don't always agree, he has miles more experience in this area than I do.

But it's fact that GT is a successful marketing machine. Just look at their new "6L6GE" "American" tubes...which have some parts made here, but the tube itself is constructed in China. They don't tell you that in their marketing stuff...

I don't often buy new tubes, having inherited a nice stash that will keep me for some time...but I have been satisfied with JJ's from Eurotubes and would have no qualms about dealing with Lord Valve, Uncle Ned, Mike at KCA, Uncle Spot and a few of the other respected suppliers. I'm not going to wander down to GC and buy a sleeve of GT's off the nice-looking counter display, though....

I am certainly not an advocate of paying double for the same tubes, which is often what you do when you buy GT, but in all fairness, when I service an amp with GT power tubes they are usually matched tighter than the less expensive varieties. Is it worth it? Not to me. But, if at the counter of Ray's Music Emporium, the GT labeled version of the Reflektor 6L6 is the same price as Ruby or EH version, I'm going to take the GT. FWIW, they do have exclusive US marketting rights on the Reflektor KT66s.

Let's get back to the original question, shall we? A gent with a DR is looking for new tubes. So what shall we recommend, that sounds good, is reliable (don't have to worry about them blowing up at a gig and wiping out parts in the amp), and don't cost an arm and a leg.

For the 6V6 requirement, he could spring the bucks for NOS, they're pretty much all well made, reliable and sound good, but they're pricey these days. Current production alternatives are the Sovtek/EH, the Chinese and the JJ. I am of the opinion that the JJ is the obvious choice because it is built much more solidly than either the Sovtek or Chinese, Bob is selling them at a good price, and they sound good. The EH has screen grid reliability issues, you pay your money and takes your chances. The older design Chinese tubes (the Chinese 6V6 has been around a long time) are somewhat notorious for having short lifespan and other issues.

I just received a pair of JJ's from Bob at Eurotubes....he was real nice on the phone and gave me some advice about biasing.
I'm anxious to get them installed..

Thanks for all the advice...

fwiw - I've heard stories about GT over the years too, so I've stayed away and have dealt with Willie (LValve) in the past and now wanted to try the JJ's so I called Bob. The tech's in my area (formerly Wichita and now KC) seem to like GT for some reason though. It's all most of them carry.

FWIW, Fender and Ampeg amps (among others) come with Groove Tubes. Have they been duped? I think there is a lot of rhetoric spewing on this thread and I've seen no hard core evidence to back up some of the libel that's been thrown around.

I have no affiliation with GT and I personally get my tubes from Bob@Eurotubes because he treats me well and helps me get the tones I'm after. However, I don't think it's fair to name call and categorize just because someone doesn't agree with your assesment of things. If you don't like the way someone does business don't do business with them. If you have a personal experience you'd like to share by all means share it so we can understand your aversion to a certain company. If you don't have a personal example, you're just parroting what others have said.

...I'm not sure how accurate it is, but if I correctly recall, something in the literature that I received with the Dr.Z Route 66 I used to have (fabulous amp, wish I could have afforded to keep it) stated the total hrs for the GT KT66's were around 11,000 hrs. I'm not even sure if that info. was from Mike Zaite (Dr.Z) or Mr. Pittman. I don't know Mr. Pittman, but I do know Mike and if that figure was an estimate from him you can likely take it to the bank. Hope this helps. 8)

FWIW, Fender and Ampeg amps (among others) come with Groove Tubes. Have they been duped?

With larger amp manufacturers much of the actual parts content is dependent on finding suppliers with sufficient liability insurance coverage. It's a sad fact, but a large-scale outfit can't take a chance on using high-quality stuff from "boutique" suppliers, who have minimal...if any...liability insurance. the way things are nowdays, if there was a fire that could be related to an amp, lawyers would go after the makers of every *part* of that amp - tubes, speakers, transformers etc.

It's likely one reason you don't see WeberVST speakers in Fender amps - it's not a quality issue, it's simply a liability one. Same with tube suppliers - if something goes dangerously wrong, the smaller guys don't have the insurance resources. You're not going to find a small manufacturer who carries a million or two of product liability insurance.

:roll:

Fair what?? Name calling? Who's name calling?
Guess you should go back and read the thread.

Relabeling tubes IS what GT does.
Yes, most of us were aware of that.

Why pay for BS when you can buy the same thing cheaper? You PC folks should really get a thicker skin and know when an attack is an attack. I and others are stating fact.
Well, this is a first for me. I've never been called PC before. I'm still waiting for an example of "the fact".

Like I said before, if you have a specific example that happened to you then post it so we all can learn. Otherwise you are just buying into someone else's hype and regurgitating that.

Better yet, if you can run a similar company better, get crackin' and let me see you're smoke. Otherwise you're no better than those you are running down. I've recently become fond of the saying "Put up or shut up." That is if your skin is thck enough.

eom

I just received a pair of JJ's from Bob at Eurotubes....he was real nice on the phone and gave me some advice about biasing.
I'm anxious to get them installed..

Thanks for all the advice...

fwiw - I've heard stories about GT over the years too, so I've stayed away and have dealt with Willie (LValve) in the past and now wanted to try the JJ's so I called Bob. The tech's in my area (formerly Wichita and now KC) seem to like GT for some reason though. It's all most of them carry.

Let us know how you like them. Please keep us posted, and preferably over on the Amp Workshop board, it's a good place, good guys hang there. Those JJs are still pretty new, and we still need to keep an eye on them for expected lifespan, or anything unusual that will only manifest itself over time.

You're welcome.

FWIW, Fender and Ampeg amps (among others) come with Groove Tubes. Have they been duped? I think there is a lot of rhetoric spewing on this thread and I've seen no hard core evidence to back up some of the libel that's been thrown around.

I have no affiliation with GT and I personally get my tubes from Bob@Eurotubes because he treats me well and helps me get the tones I'm after. However, I don't think it's fair to name call and categorize just because someone doesn't agree with your assesment of things. If you don't like the way someone does business don't do business with them. If you have a personal experience you'd like to share by all means share it so we can understand your aversion to a certain company. If you don't have a personal example, you're just parroting what others have said.

Well you're entitled to your opinions, as are the rest of us. If you want to prevent any name calling or criticism of your hero GT, I might suggest you to start your own board, then you can censor it as you see fit. You might even try to out-censor CG on the FDP. Don't expect to see anyone knowledgable participating in your censored forums.

Fender and Ampeg use GT for a couple reasons. They, being large volume OEMs, have to use current production tubes from all the usual suspect manufacturers. That means they have to buy them in bulk, and screen them to reject the duds, and match up the power tubes, and be responsible for warranty issues that are tube related. Now this is just a distraction for them in their business model, more hassle that takes away focus from their core business. Alternately, it makes more sense for them to buy tubes from a reseller who will handle the screening and matching for them. It relieves Fender and Ampeg of a headache. Enter GT, since that is precisely their business. I believe the way it works is Fender buys the tubes in bulk from the importer and has them drop shipped to GT. GT tests and matches the tubes, throws out the duds, silkscreens on their logo, and ships the good ones on to Fender. An added bonus is the hype factor, in that Fender now gets to advertise that they use Boob Toobz. BFD. No, they are not "duped", it's a good business decision from a manufacturing standpoint, but there is nothing special about GT, other than the advertising hype. Get a clue.

...I'm not sure how accurate it is, but if I correctly recall, something in the literature that I received with the Dr.Z Route 66 I used to have (fabulous amp, wish I could have afforded to keep it) stated the total hrs for the GT KT66's were around 11,000 hrs. I'm not even sure if that info. was from Mike Zaite (Dr.Z) or Mr. Pittman. I don't know Mr. Pittman, but I do know Mike and if that figure was an estimate from him you can likely take it to the bank. Hope this helps. 8)

That's about a year and 3 months. If the tubes have a good vacuum, no internal contamination, and good cathode chemistry, they should be able to go that long. Another factor is their operating environment. How much vibration and mechanical shock they have to endure, and well as what power levels they're run at.

Now, has Mike actually run a pair that long and verified that they didn't degrade beyond minimum spec? Or is he just guessing?

If you want to use current production real KT66s, you have 2 choices. The Chinese "Valve Art" model, or the Russian/GT model. Both sound good. Neither one has reliability issues.

OK, Tremo, now you're calling me names. You are not ruffling my feathers, but your colors are showing plainly. If you read my first post (if you can really read) you'll see that I buy my tubes from Eurotubes. So, who's the simpleton?

My argument is not that you can't have an opinion. It is that calling names and making accusations without backing them up is silly. It's saying "this is what I'm saying so it must be right." Pretzel logic. You have so much invested in this emotionally that you can't take criticizim of your opinions. Or offer informed ones.

And obviously, you can't state your opinion without running someone else down. You must have a sad life if the only way you can make yourself look good is by calliing other people names. Why don't you bring some logic to your argument along with your passion?

As far as whether his stuff is too expensive, you can vote with your pocketbook and buy somewhere else. How much do you know about his operation? I know absloutely nothing so I'm not qualified to price his stuff for him. I bet you aren't either. Nor do I buy his stuff because I can get what works for me for less money.

You pricing GT stuff is like me coming to your job and telling you what you can make without knowing what you do. That's silly, too!

So, if you want to call me names and whine and cry like a little school girl when someone disagrees with you, go ahead. It only makes you look petty. However, if you come to the table with some solid arguments like a man, I'll be happy to hear what you have to say.

Yes, GT does match and restap tubes. So do a lot of places. Thye often charge a bitmore for it as well. But, they are not awful or anything like that as I see it.

Also some tubes, 6L6GE for example, are owned and made by them. So they are not all bought off others.

Well at one point, I bought some genuine 'real deal' RCA 7025s for $20 ea. - the same price GT was charging at the time for Chinese 12AX7As. GT used to have(and probably still does) a private stash of NOS tubes sold thru a special group - I'd hazard a guess Aspen has NOS RCA or Sylvania 6V6GTAs in his personal DR, not the stuff they sell at Guitar Center. ;)

But since price doesn't seem to matter, how about GT's 'rating' system???? Try comparing identical sets of power tubes with #4 & #7 ratings in the same class AB fixed bias amp. BUT rebias them to the same current ratings and you'll be hard-pressed to tell a significant difference in headroom or tone. Other vendors also rate tubes and it can be handy for people who don't want to rebias, but GT hasn't always been real clear about this. I wonder how many people go out and replace a good set of GTs with a different rating, when a turn of a screw could do the same thing...

I do remember way back when GT was selling mostly new U.S., NOS, & military stuff and the tubes were really good compared to some other surplus vendors at that time. The U.S. tube plants shut down in the 80s and by the early 90s, things were getting really tight. Meeting demand meant that large vendors and OEMs like Fender had to go overseas. I don't think Aspen and others would have considered buying and re-opening U.S. tube plants if they were really happy with the imports. Their plans got kind of messed up in the late 90s by all the military base-closings and ship decommissionings that put container loads of U.S. JAN tubes on the market at very reasonable prices.

Contrary to urban myth, tube-making is not totally dead or prohibited in the U.S., it's just very expensive given the volume. There's a company called Richardson Electronics that makes industrial tubes right here in Illinois. They re-ran some WE 300Bs a few years back - you don't want to know the price.....

I have a 1960 Gretsch 6150T amp that I received for Christmas that year. It still has the original tubes, and they are RCA. I have never replaced them, and the amp gets played at least 5 hours a week to this day.

Jeff

Yes, there are still tubes being made here in the USA. Witness the microwave tube industry. Teledyne, Litton and CPI. They make TWTs, klystrons, magnetrons, switch tubes, etc.... Yeah, they're way different than a 6L6, but they still are vacuum tubes with heater, cathode, etc... And of all places, all 3 of those companies are located in California, where the pollution rules are the most strict. Those old megawatt DEW line klystrons are about 14" in diameter, and 10' long. They run at about 100kV, and the output waveguide is the size of air conditioning duct (500 MHz).
However, the 12AX7, 6L6 stuff is no longer made here, even GT.

Yes, GT does match and restap tubes. So do a lot of places. Thye often charge a bitmore for it as well. But, they are not awful or anything like that as I see it.

Also some tubes, 6L6GE for example, are owned and made by them. So they are not all bought off others.

Well, not quite, Doc. Go read about this on Amp Workshop. Seems like Pittman bought the machines to make them, and resold the machines to China. Pittman bought the explosively clad plate material (what's left of it), and the micas. That's all the USA content in the GT6L6GE. The rest of the tube's guts, as well as it's assembly, apparently is Chinese. Seems like some other tube dealer got a shipment of tubes from China, and they were the 6L6GEs, by mistake.

More hype and misinformation from GT?

Yes, GT does match and restap tubes. So do a lot of places. Thye often charge a bitmore for it as well. But, they are not awful or anything like that as I see it.

Also some tubes, 6L6GE for example, are owned and made by them. So they are not all bought off others.

Well, not quite, Doc. Go read about this on Amp Workshop. Seems like Pittman bought the machines to make them, and resold the machines to China. Pittman bought the explosively clad plate material (what's left of it), and the micas. That's all the USA content in the GT6L6GE. The rest of the tube's guts, as well as it's assembly, apparently is Chinese. Seems like some other tube dealer got a shipment of tubes from China, and they were the 6L6GEs, by mistake.

More hype and misinformation from GT?

If this is true then someone should file charges against GT. They still list MADE IN USA on those tubes and say on their literature and website that they are 95% USA components.

From GT website:

USA/GT reissue which is 95% USA components made on the original General Electric machines, the original tools, dies, materials and processing formulas as acquired from the liquidation for the last American tube factory in Owensbororough Kentucky.
The most expensive (because of the the high US content)

It is illegal to advertise or sell a product tht says " Made In USA" if a certaian percentage is not made here.
Someone out in San Fernando needs to stop by the GT factory and snoop around to see if they are making anything.


As for the rest of Aspen's hype,bs, or misinformation. If you ever get a chance to talk to the guy, he really believes everything he says. He does seem like a very smart guy, a little lost in himself, but smart.


Back to the life of power tubes,
I have a set of old mid '60s Sylvania bigbottle 6L6 tubes in a '66 Pro that have been in there for over 15 years and they still sound great.
Then I've had some tubes that don't last at all.
It's almost like trying to guess when your front porch light is going to burn out. There is just to many variables to pinpoint how long they will last.
When they sound bad or stop working- change 'em.

First of all "Amp Workshop" is not a definitive authority on tubes. Most of the folks who post there, like Tremo, have an anonymous profile -- check out Tremo's -- his profile is "John". So you don't know who is posting what over there or if they are even authoritative. And anyone who uses personal attacks and name calling whenever someone disagrees with them -- then you have to suspect their motivation anyway.

Second, I -- and a lot of others -- buy "screened" tubes. I could care less where they are manufactured -- or who's doing the screening, as long as when they arrive at my house they work when I plug them in. My background is military electronics and I worked on A LOT of tube equipment. I can tell you, that when tube electronics were prevalent in the military, we had HUGE issues with quality. No 2 tubes are created equally -- right off the assembly line.

If they were -- you'd never have to "match" PA tubes -- they would always be matched.

If they were, you'd never have to "rebias" -- every tube you dropped in the circuit would have the same characteristics as the broken one you pulled out of it had when it was functioning.

If they were -- then I would have never had to realign the entire front end of every radar receiver that I replaced a tube in back in the old tube days. Tubes were a headache, because replacing one tube often changed the way the equipment operated and you had to go back and realign the whole equipment to account for the way that new tube was performing in the circuit.

If they were -- there never would have been so many "tube testers" back in the day when vacuum tubes were plentiful. The fact is -- the first rule of vacuum tubes back then was "before installing new tube in equipment -- TEST IT IN A GOOD TUBE TESTER". The reason this was -- is because new tubes were often bad.

I used to order 6 tubes every time I had to replace one tube -- that was so I could guarantee that I could get at least a couple out of stock that WORKED -- and so that I could then pick the best performing one. Sometimes a "good tube" was only a marginally good tube.

BURN IN on a tube is good service in my opinion. New tube "mortality" in a ciruit is very high. This is because the tubes characteristics "change" after they have been under "heat" and operating for awhile. If you have a supplyer that burns in the tubes -- then tests them after burn-in before they send them to you -- then you are more likely to experience FEWER headaches with tubes.

My tube background? Here is a list of equipments ...

AN/URC-21
AN/SPS-10
AN/BPS-15
R-1051 (A rotating TUBE magazine front end!)
AN/SPS-53 (THE KING OF TUBE NIGHTMARES)
AN/SPA-25 (Back when it was tubes)

And many others that I've since (thankfully) forgotten!

The tubes I got out of stock -- are the same JAN NOS tubes that you buy for your guitar amps today. Yes, I did a lot of work with "specialty" tubes -- magnatrons and reflext klystrons -- stuff you'd never see in a guitar amp. However, my headaches with these tubes were few. Most of my problems were caused by 12AX7's; 6V6's; EL-84's; you name it.

So, if anyone out there wants to call those of us who buy "screened" tubes idiots -- fine. But you're not speaking from a position of knowledge.

And if anyone out there wants to buy "unscreened" and "unburned" tubes -- I wish you well -- seriously. I respect your opinion -- I hope you'll respect my opinion, and the others of us who buy screened tubes -- whether it's from GT, KCANOSTUBES, or any of the other many tube "screeners". I find it offensive when someone like Tremo uses terms like "get a clue" to make his point.

Mark, almost everyone buys screened and/or burned-in tubes.

But the point I think that was being made is that GT charges a lot more for them than others, when they are often common, inexpensive tubes - when purchased from other suppliers without the "GT" logo...and it's thought GT also overhypes their products (in some people's opinions).

The notes about Amp Workshop - many of the guys over there are professional amp techs. not radar techs, guitar amp techs who deal with this stuff daily. Some of them can be a little abrasiove at times, but I've found them to be well-versed in guitar amp/tube technology.

Cowboytwang - the GT 6L6GE's I have do not say "made in USA" anywhere on them, and I haven't seen that phrase used - GT may have the old equipment, but that doesn't mean it's all being used in the USA.

Everyone has his right to his own personal opinion on his tube supplier - without being called an idiot for his personal preference. I will also concede to you that GT does charge more. I use GT only because of the one guy in their SAG shop that I trust and correspond with on a regular basis. I happen to LIKE the guys that I've met (online) that work there (but I also have to admit -- until this thread, I never knew who Aspen Pittman was!). Hype in GT marketing? Perhaps -- I never read much of their marketing. When I approached them many years ago -- I was just looking for a good tube supplier of SCREENED tubes because I have no desire to relive my early days as an Electronics Tech in the Navy. Most of my hair is gone now -- not because of old age -- but because I pulled it out back in the heyday of "tubes"!! I'm telling you -- tubes are the way to go in an amp (IMO) - but they can be a hassle!

You are also right I think when you say that most folks buy screened and/or burned in tubes. That was a peripheral point I was trying to make in pointing out the part about "matched" PA's. Who doesn't put a matched set in their amps? And who's doing the matching? Certainly not (for the most part) the individual owners of those amps. They are buying these tubes from someone that "screened" and matched them.

When I read through this thread though -- I saw a lot of stuff about how GT testing was redundant -- because "any manufacturer" worth his salt would test his tubes before they left the factory. That may be a reasonable expectation for any manufacturer -- I'll agree to that. But I won't agree that it's a reality. There is value added in a "QC POINT" beyond the Chinese and Russian factories that most of these tubes are being manufactured in -- because their QC -- imho -- is fairly poor.

Now, as far as a guitar amp techs experience being more valid than mine (which is more radar and comms). I agree to a point. I think an amp tech is more qualified to speak about how certain tubes sound in an amp. They are more qualified to talk about what tubes can be substituted here and there in an amp. However, they actually have LESS experience with tubes under severe stress than anyone who worked with them in military equipment. Military tubes were used 24/7 in critical equipment that had to ALWAYS operate. Common guitar amp tubes were used in frequency circuits all the way up to the UHF range. So although a guitar amp tech is probably more qualified to talk about guitar amps -- he is not necessarily more qualified to talk about tube performace when it comes to shooting and moving electrons from point a to point b. In my opinion, someone who has seen tubes under a variety of conditions and applications -- is more qualified to talk about that. Don't take that as a demand from me that you place more stock in my opinion here than someone elses -- I'm not asking that at all. However, I think you can understand why I personally value my own opinion more than someone else who's (a) Anonymous; (B) Using name calling and derrogatory words to derride those with a different opinion.

By the way -- the best guitar amp tech I personally know has a background in both Military and Guitar applications -- and he works for a popular tube screener.

My main beef here was some guy (Tremo) coming into a thread he didn't start to throw accusations around and belittle people who use GT's. I AM an Electronics Tech -- that is how I have made my living. I have worked in the business for 22 plus years (and before that in my uncle's Motorola TV shop in High School) -- and I can tell you -- Tremo is not qualified to call us idiots. And it really ticked me off -- and a few others it appears in this thread -- when he did.

In all fairness to Mr. Pittman, I don't think too many people much cared about matched tubes in guitar amps before he came along 25 years ago or so, heck, I'd just go down to Rat Shack and return the lifetime guarantee tube when it died and get another. He actually probably plays a role in the tube amp renaisence (SP) that has taken place over the last 15 years or so. The Tube Amp Books have been hugely popular, and yes, there certainly is a lot blatant GT marketting going on in the book, but, Mr. Pittman is first and foremost a marketting guy, and appears to be quite good at it. How can someone positioning there products over-hype it?

You know Mark, I could care less if you're ticked. I don't recall having called anyone an "idiot". If I did use that word, please quote the specific post, or shut yer yap. All you seem to want to do is piss and moan about anyone criticizing GT and who will stand up to and debunk your GT cheerleading. You like a guy there at GT, great. Regardless, they charge more than anyone else, for the SAME tubes. And GT isn't the only tube dealer that screens his tubes. Lard Valve has probably the most rigorous screening of the dealers, with his full power hammer tests. Ruby does a good job screening their tubes. I'm sure KCA does as well. In short, there's several other guys providing screened tubes other than GT.

You seem to get yer panties in a wadd over my profile on AW, what a useless and silly and totally irrelavant thing to get upset over. Again, if you don't like it, that's your problem, I don't give a rat's rear end. The level of technical competence over there is far greater than you'll get on a censored board. Guys there call a spade a spade. If you're thin skinned, you may get yer feelings hurt. Go cry to mommy if that's the case. If you have a legit question, you'll get a no-nonsense answer there. It may not be what you want to hear, but it's valid info.

It's good to know that you do have an electronics background and served our country honorably. Well, I also have an electronics background, I'm a degreed electronics engineer, and have over 26 years of professional experience, and I was even in school when tubes and tube circuits were still being taught. I also have extensive experience in *designing* (as opposed to field troubleshooting someone else's design) electronics equipment for military airborne and naval applications, so I know what I'm doing "under the hood", and designing for severe environments and reliability concerns. I have also worked for 2 companies that made military tubes. Yeah, they were linear beam microwave tubes, but still "tubes" none the less. In comparison, these guitar amp tubes which work up to maybe a couple hundred Megahertz, are simple. Try making a tube that works to 18 GHz. Regardless of all this crap, GT's tubes are the same tubes as everyone else is selling, their orange logo on the side doesn't mean squat about them being superior to the same tube you would buy from LV.

If you want to cheerlead for GT, again, more power to ya. If I want to say that Pittman overcharges and overhypes, that's my business, and again, if you don't like it, take a hike. And as far as me not starting this thread, so what? I didn't see the guy who did start it ask that I not participate. Indeed, he was soliciting information, so I have as much right to post my opinions as do you.

If you're ticked off, too bad. Get over it.

I misunderstood about the 6L6GE then, sorry.

China is not a bad name at my house though, at least with tubes. The 12AX7C (9th generation) tubes I put in my Pro Tube Pro Reverb are the best preamp tubes I have tried in that amp. Better than JJ or others to my ears. Musical, linear and sweet when distorting. The 6L6GE's are also a great sounding tube as well and one I would recommend to anyone. The ratings for the China tubes (these versions) are some of the best rating I can find for tubes. In both cases I think the tubes are GT only for the purchase. These tubes combined with a Cannibus Rex speaker have made this amp go from the ok-good range to great.

I am sure I paid extra for the GT name. I did for my Fender amps, Fender guitars and my Seymour Duncan pickups as well. In all cases I am glad I did as it is the best sounding rig I have had ... ever. I have tried a few rigs over 20 years.

Treem -- the totality of your comments amounts to nothing more than you suggesting that anyone who uses GT's are idiots. Go back and read your posts. Everytime someone jumps up to oppose your opinion (and it IS an opinion -- not FACT as you keep stating) -- then you haul in and call 'em a "cheerleader" or derride them in some other manner. (By the way, my panties belong to ME -- keep your eyes off 'em! :D)

You keep "questioning" the fact that I claim to know nothing about Aspin Pittman. Message there is -- "Look out folks, Mark is a GT plant!". Well boss, why don't you just take what I claim at face value since there is no way you could know otherwise? Since there is no real reason for you to suspect otherwise? Why would you insinuate that I'm lying about my affiliations? Fact is, I DO KNOW a lot about Aspin Pittman now -- since you brought his name up and decided to slander him (which by the way is against TDPRI policy). Since you've brought his name up I have read LOADS about him. But I didn't know anything about him before then. Unlike you, the service I get from a company is more important to me than the personality at the top of it. So there ya go -- I've been using GT's all these years and didn't even know who their CEO was! Unbelievable. Then again, I drive a Saturn and don't know who the CEO of that company is either. By the way, who's in charge of Fender these days? Cause I don't know that either! Your fixation on Aspen Pittman appears to me to be irrational and perhaps centered in envy and resentment. But I'll leave that to you and your analyst to sort out.

As far as me being being "ticked" -- it appears I'm not nearly as redlined as you are right now because, read your last post -- still using "name calling" but now you're resorting to borderline language as well. Well, I guess this is to be expected from you.

As far as my military affiliation, I don't seek or desire any special consideration for that. As far as you being an "engineer" -- well I'm sure you're familiar with the "engineer vs tech" arguement that always goes on between engineers and techs about who has more practical knowledge -- no need to bore the folks on TDPRI with that one. In any case, it wouldn't mean anything anyway -- since a sharp engineer is always better than a weak tech and vice versa.

As far as your profile -- I was talking about your profile HERE -- on TDPRI. I have no idea what your profile says over on the "We Hate GT and don't have a life" amp discussion board -- I never looked at it.

As far as me "shuttin" my "yap" -- Let me think about that for a moment ....

uh....

No.

All I know is Groove Tubes are overhyped. And John has helped me out more than a few times with amp related stuff. He's an incredibly valuable resource, and despite his sometimes gruff demeanor, I trust his advice. So far, he's never been wrong. :D

All I know is Groove Tubes are overhyped. And XXXX has helped me out more than a few times with amp related stuff. He's an incredibly valuable resource, and despite his sometimes gruff demeanor, I trust his advice. So far, he's never been wrong. :D

I can agree they are overhyped. As are Fender and a lot of other products. The person in question may also be a great deal of help in many ways. In this case the over exaggeration of the response seemed to need to ba balanced. If it had been "they are over hyped and you can get the same product elsewhere" it would have been great information. However, the way it was presented makes me question the senders reputation. Gruff is one thing, but some of the information presented went well past gruff. I would not otherwise have responded at all. I do not care any more for GT than any other complay. A lot of folks do need soild information. The exaggeration is not solid information it is misleading.

I just put new preamp and power tubes in a Pignose GV40. I use it about 8 hours a week. I believe but am not sure because I'm an idiot that the tubes are 3 12ax7s and 2 6L6s. On a rough order of magnitude how long can I expect them to last?

That was the original question! It is interesting to hear you two guys "discuss" your points of view and who's rude and who's entitled but its gotten way over the top. Let's call a truce, go back to talking about guitars, amps, tone and the thing that got us here to begin with TELE'S.

Love,

Peter

I just put new preamp and power tubes in a Pignose GV40. I use it about 8 hours a week. I believe but am not sure because I'm an idiot that the tubes are 3 12ax7s and 2 6L6s. On a rough order of magnitude how long can I expect them to last?

That was the original question! It is interesting to hear you two guys "discuss" your points of view and who's rude and who's entitled but its gotten way over the top. Let's call a truce, go back to talking about guitars, amps, tone and the thing that got us here to begin with TELE'S.

Love,

Peter

A long time. Several years probably. Will they sound better if replaced sooner ... probably.

Here is a link to a very interesting post. Its wrather long so it'll take awhile to read. I dont claim to be an expert on this subject but in my opinion GT is very shady in their business practises. Leading folks on about the origion of their products or omitting certain info and letting others conect the dots in a different manner than the actual truth is downright imoral.

Notice in this post HE still did not say exactly whats in the 6L6's but you can pretty much figure it out. He finally did come clean about the new 12AX7's but look at their website dont mention anything about where these are made. They arent making anything and they seem to be creating a firestorm frenzy without spelling it all out and selling some product in the process.

I cancelled my order and will not buy another product from them ever. Knowingly allowing customers to be mislead about products they are spending their hard earned money on is not right. I have a right to know where items I puchase are manufactured. Or I at least have a right not to buy products from a company that wants to let its products origions be over in the corner in the shady area of the room. Where you cant quite make it out.

JJ tubes I have found are great modern day Tubes. Very good quality and very good sounding tubes. I have yet to get a bad JJ tube. I have gotten bad tubes from a number of other sources including GT.

The Link http://65.54.184.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=2e31541ec11932c66341bc193c1eaa92&lat=1082555983&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2f63%2e151%2e115%2e106%2fbo ard%2fshowthread%2ephp%3fthreadid%3d24249%26goto%3 dnewpost

The link dosnt seem to work let me try it again.

http://65.54.184.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=86ce300fc2125866583eb82fbb6c9c6e&lat=1082557970&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2f63%2e151%2e115%2e106%2fbo ard%2fshowthread%2ephp%3fthreadid%3d24249%26goto%3 dnewpost

I cant get the link to come up. Dont know why but the moral to the story is you decide whose products you buy not me or anyone else.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but the origin of a product is far less important to me than whether it works as described. I really do not care a great deal. In the case of my 6L6GE and the 12AX7C both work great and as described. So I do not feel mislead. At elast no more than I do from any other company.

Remember the Fender verneer guitars? This was way more misleading to me.

I dont disagree with you. I dont care where something is made. I do want to know where a product I buy is made. That includes everything in it around it and assembly.

What I was upset about is the way they went about it. To me if you come out and say " We have this new tube out that is really good and is made in China " that is one thing but to just let everyone draw their own conclusions which happen to be the wrong conclusion is wrong. Misleading is an understatement on how they went about this and that leads me to believe there is a reason for being misleading. What that reason is I dont know but I'm not willing to spend my hard earned money just find out.

When I was checking into this I drew the conclusion that these tubes were 100 percent made in USA and ordered a buch of em. When I found out they werent I felt misled. Then I started looking around to figure out what the deal was. At the time looking on their website they used statements like they bought the tooling to make it look like they were making these there. Which couldnt be further from the truth. Whatever you think about the deal they were missleading about these things. There is no doubt in my mind about that. There must be a reason for this tactic and it may not be in my interest for me to be mislead.

If you look at their website (the last time I looked at it) all other tubes origions are listed. Some say made in Russia some say made in China but these (12ax7-M) say nothing of it. Why? Then if you look at Myles posts on The Gear Page he finally even eludes that the 6L6's are not 100 perecent USA and dosent want to elaborate in this much. Which tells me there is something they are hiding about these Made in the USA Tubes also.What I dont know but like I said I dont spend my money on suspect Marketting Ploys.

For you guys that are defending their Marketing Practises I have some real estate I'd like to sell you. You know Beacfront Property in Arizona. Its just like the real thing only not as much water and waves. :lol:

To me it looks like they are wanting to get a Premium Price for a Chinese made Tube. Premium as far as Chinese is concerned not other makes. Which then in turn helps to drive the market price for everything better up more. That is not in my best interest.

I'm not certain of their motives and dont mean to act like I am, only they know that. I'm just suspect and everything thing I have written is just my Opinion so if you disagree it is a free Country last time I checked.

I wish all nothing but the best tone, tubes, guitars, and fun in playing. Its your money spend it how you choose.

I think the motives/reasons are very obvious - Caveat emptor.

For me, there is no substitute for NOS power tubes (and the price is typically not too far off the booteek toobz) ... and for preamp tubes, used/tested RCA, GE, Tungsol, Mullard, Telefunken, Brimar, Tungsram and others are typically far better sounding than any of the current crop of sonically compromised garbage.

I agree with Tim re preamp tubes. Guys, there is NOTHING wrong with using good, used pulls of American, Brit or German made tubes. First off, they do need to be tested to make sure they still test comfortably above minimum spec and there are no other problems (noise, gas, etc...), but once they get past that, you have a tube that you know will sound good, it will remain quiet, and will probably outlast anything in current production. I run several used pulls in my amps and they just keep on plugging and chugging. In fact, in my 64 DR, all the preamp tubes are used pulls of Mullards, Telefunkens, RCAs and GE 5-Stars. They've been in there for years, they still all test well above minimum, and they sound great. No need to change out a tube that still tests strong and sounds good!

Also, why spend the bux on an overhyped (misleading marketing BS) and overpriced Chinese made tube from Boob Toobz (6L6GE, very little real American content) when you can get NOS for close to the same price. Or, if you want to use Chinese, the guys from TAD have a copy of the RCA blackplate that is pulling in some very favorable reviews.

I suspect that BoobToobz 12AX7M is probably also made in China. Will it's actual sound and lifespan justify the price and hype????

I hear that JJ is working on a long plate 12AX7, I'm curious how that will sound. The Sovtek 12AX7LPS sounded good, and so does the Ei 12AX7 which is a Telefunken knockoff.

I run several used pulls in my amps and they just keep on plugging and chugging.

Same here - I keep boxes of them around, a couple calibrated tube testers, and haven't bought "new" tubes of any kind in ages.

To each their own. I like what I am doing, and see no reason to fault GT any more than I would see the need to fault Fender. Did you go on about Fender's practices when they were very similar?

For anyone who wants to know. After much digging I found out where the GT 12AX7-M is made. It is 100 percent made in China. It is made at the Shaguang Factory (I'm not sure on the spelling) in China and if you look on their website last I checked there is no mention of its origion. They leave it up to you to connect the dots.

Thanks for the detective work, RP. Your info comes as no surprise.

Now how many people do you think have successfully been suckered by Pitt into thinking the 12AX7M and the 6L6 GE are made at the GT facility in LaLa land? LOL.

I really want to see an Uncle Spot shootout with those tubes included, we'll see how they really stack up against the competition. No hype and BS there, just the straight skinny.

Still, there will be some who continue to beat the drum and sing the praises of GT......oh well......


:lol:

And some that even if they stack up still will not like GT.

I havent said a word about the tubes. I have just expressed my disapointment about thier marketing practises and am not interested in sending my money to someone who is deceptive. Those tubes may be the best on the planet although because of the shadowy info concerning them I'm not willing to find out and would guess they arent.

What's there to like about a BS artist, hypemeister and price gouger?

Clearly, the GT12AX7-M is nothing more than a Chinese copy of a Mullard. It's not a real Mullard. It's not NOS. It should be judged on an even playing field with all of it's current production peers, like the Ei, EH, JJ, Sovtek and other Chinese. A current production Chinese tube does not merit NOS pricing, regardless of any hype that it's coated with. Ditto for their 6L6GE.

What's there to like about a BS artist, hypemeister and price gouger?

Clearly, the GT12AX7-M is nothing more than a Chinese copy of a Mullard. It's not a real Mullard. It's not NOS. It should be judged on an even playing field with all of it's current production peers, like the Ei, EH, JJ, Sovtek and other Chinese. A current production Chinese tube does not merit NOS pricing, regardless of any hype that it's coated with. Ditto for their 6L6GE.

Then do not buy these tubes. No one has asked you to do so. I might even agree shady is appropriate in some cases here, but I am not sure much past that is appropriate. I also suggest that shadey advertising and price gouging is the business model used today in many major companies. I assume you were as angry, and were calling names; and wished to boycott Fender for similar issues when they partook in such as practices as unpublished veneers on strats, teles and other production gutiars? Clearly these were advertised as "solid" so at best this is shadey. It can be argued that price gouging also occurs with Gibson in many cases.

My issue here is not that you folks do not like them, I think that is fair. It is the degree do anger that seems conveyed in the messages about them I find disconcerting. This is an issue for each of us to make a subjective decision about - what is or is not something we will buy. Depending on one's frame of reference one can make the claims leveled here about a fair number of other companies than those we discussed. I can support folks right to make such decisions and and say why. The thing that seems to need here is to deal with the intensity so that for some rookie there is a degree of balance. The degree of name calling and the disproportionate degree of hostility towards GT expressed here just seems over the top for me.

In any case, I am out of this at this point as it is obvioulsy no longer an issue for which a discussion can take place. It is an issue of passion that is in play.

Take care,

Dale

Well I myself have never been good at getting my point across Tactfully. I mean no one any hard feelings including GT. It just comes out sounding harsh. I do stand behind my opinion. I wish the best to all.