Jimmy Bruno speaks about learning scales.

This is from an interview with Jimmy Bruno from the 'Holiday 2008' issue of Guitar Player.

I'm not sure when I changed my thoughts on the usefulness of the chord/scale approach but it's been many years now. I don't recall what influenced me to consider playing out of a different concept but I agree with everything that Mr. Bruno has to say below.

Q. "How do your online lessons compare to the lessons you've taught privately or at universities?"

JB. "It's completely different. I don't know how to say this without hurting the schools, but there's really no way. The chord/scale approach that is taught in the universities may have outlived its usefulness. Music is not scales-it's about making melodies. And crafitng melodies is something that happens to a player gradually, to the point where eventually they're not thinking about the process anymore. I think the academics don't realize that theory is the result that comes after the music, not before. When you get to a certain level of proficiency-and it doesn't have to be very high-you find yourself not playing from a concept of scales, but from a melodic one."

I think scales should be taught as sets, not as go up and down by steps. That is the essence of the problem, in my view.

When Jmmy Bruno speaks it is a good idea to listen....he is amazing!

Well, if learning chords and scales has outlived it's usefulness, I'd really like to know what the alternative is.

I think scales should be taught as sets, not as go up and down by steps. That is the essence of the problem, in my view.

You may be right.

Also I think part of the problem with the scale method is the idea of "this chord = this scale" type thinking. It's probably an efficient way to train people to play notes over chords that have a tendancy to sound okay but practicing scales and thinking in terms of scales typically trains people to play scales (surprise!!) instead of playing melodies, motifs and phrases that sound alive and breathe.

So like you suggest Larry I think teaching scales as sets and then practicing motifs and melodies composed of the notes contained in any set is a much more musical way to teach music rather than just running scales up and down mechanically with the only, or main goal simply to get really fast at it.

I think scales should be taught as sets, not as go up and down by steps. That is the essence of the problem, in my view.

That sounds like the keys to the kingdom.

How, with exercises on an instrument, can one come to achieve an understanding of a scale as a set?

This is from an interview with Jimmy Bruno from the 'Holiday 2008' issue of Guitar Player.

I'm not sure when I changed my thoughts on the usefulness of the chord/scale approach but it's been many years now. I don't recall what influenced me to consider playing out of a different concept but I agree with everything that Mr. Bruno has to say below.

Q. "How do your online lessons compare to the lessons you've taught privately or at universities?"

JB. "It's completely different. I don't know how to say this without hurting the schools, but there's really no way. The chord/scale approach that is taught in the universities may have outlived its usefulness. Music is not scales-it's about making melodies. And crafitng melodies is something that happens to a player gradually, to the point where eventually they're not thinking about the process anymore. I think the academics don't realize that theory is the result that comes after the music, not before. When you get to a certain level of proficiency-and it doesn't have to be very high-you find yourself not playing from a concept of scales, but from a melodic one."

How do you get to that level of proficiency without knowing the anatomy of music? He is really proposing a catch-22 here. "You should focus on melody and not theory, you can't learn melody until you know theory."
This is at the heart of creativity and artistry. You can't walk blindly into calculus or differential equations, you need to learn algebra and basic math first.

When Jmmy Bruno speaks it is a good idea to listen....he is amazing!

Yeah it is because he's an astounding player ... though he plays lots of scaler lines and licks :?:. When I read that line in the interview I thought it was really weird. I 'think' though that what he's getting at is what Larry F's talking about. NOT just learning them up and down - this chord = this scale. Whatever. He's a great player. However he does it.

Music is not scales-it's about making melodies. ."

this is actually really funny in an ironic sort of way if you've ever heard jimmy play.

can't knock his talent--the cat can BLOW-- but i wouldn't really put JB on my short list of "melodic players.":mrgreen:

a lot of these guys say one thing, but i don't hear it in their playing. jimmy sounds like he's running changes like an old school bop guitarist to me...

but then again, it's all about how you view the fretboard...i don't think scales either, i view the fretboard from a chord tone perspective--whenever the chord changes, the neck lights up with little possibilities all built off of chord shapes...but y'know what? that ain't nothing special--i'm playing the same notes a cat who thinks scales is--there's only 12 of them!

this is actually really funny in an ironic sort of way if you've ever heard jimmy play.

can't knock his talent--the cat can BLOW-- but i wouldn't really put JB on my short list of "melodic players.":mrgreen:

a lot of these guys say one thing, but i don't hear it in their playing. jimmy sounds like he's running changes like an old school bop guitarist to me...

but then again, it's all about how you view the fretboard...i don't think scales either, i view the fretboard from a chord tone perspective--whenever the chord changes, the neck lights up with little possibilities all built off of chord shapes...but y'know what? that ain't nothing special--i'm playing the same notes a cat who thinks scales is--there's only 12 of them!

Thank you JT :mrgreen:

weird huh...we even posted at exactly the same minute...:grin:

I've been working on this a lot lately because whatever shapes or scales I learn, my fingers seem to fall into the same boring patterns. This is ironic since I can hum interesting melodies to myself all day long and never repeat an idea. So I've been making a concerted effort to sing out melodies as I improvise and make my fingers follow my brain, instead of the other way around. This sounds like a simple thing, but it makes a huge difference.

Ive been subscribing to jimmys online site and his method does work.Its not that he doesnt play and understand scales and arppeggios is just that he emphasises developing the ear so that youre listening to what you play rather than analysing it to death.



For example rather than playing Ab melodic minor over G7 to give the altered tones his lessons revolve around you working each altered tone into II V I lines.You then improvise lines using this approach in every key. if you work your way through all the alterations you start to hear them rather than plugging them in via a formula, but get to the same endpoint, as a more theoretical approach

Similarly you approach chord progressions by looking to see what changes eg
C Maj7 A7 Dmin 7 G7 draws from the notes of C major, with the C changing to C# over A7


I have no affiliation with the site .While I have a reasonable knowledge of theory , I have found it to be a useful way of playing rather than thinking over changes.Its not a shortcut but it works

YMMV

I've been working on this a lot lately because whatever shapes or scales I learn, my fingers seem to fall into the same boring patterns. This is ironic since I can hum interesting melodies to myself all day long and never repeat an idea. So I've been making a concerted effort to sing out melodies as I improvise and make my fingers follow my brain, instead of the other way around. This sounds like a simple thing, but it makes a huge difference.

Man, I know way too well what you are talking about! One thing I have found is this: If I play something that is very far from what I otherwise do, it's so much easier to break out of the worn ruts. Well, maybe that's because it's a fresh start, so there are no ruts.

For instance, we decided to play Tom Waits' "Temptation". A minor progression with a latin feel and a jazzy approach. Three factors that differs from my my usual stuff. I had no problem playing melodic ideas all the time. Sure, I used scale(s) (mostly melodic minor) to serve me some notes, but it was much more like jazztele describes it. The chord tones were so clear to me, and by getting to them from a semi below, the right skew-ness fell in place.

Now I want to find more fresh starting points!

I've been working on this a lot lately because whatever shapes or scales I learn, my fingers seem to fall into the same boring patterns.

I think we all fall prey to this. I have made a concerted effort to address this in my playing. I've come up with a little informal theory of reflexes. Let's say you are playing a blues with a pentatonic scale. Sometimes you will find yourself in a certain point in the blues progression, in a certain area of the fingerboard, and doing a certain kind of gesture. The next thing that happens might be a reflex that is one of the same old boring finger patterns that one falls into. My solution is to develop new reflexes. I play these over and over, in all kinds of situations. Once I have absorbed that reflex, then I have something fresh and new to play. So that's my theory: come up with new reflexes. Make them rhythmic, above all. Even note rhythms can really bog one down.

I think we all fall prey to this. I have made a concerted effort to address this in my playing. I've come up with a little informal theory of reflexes. Let's say you are playing a blues with a pentatonic scale. Sometimes you will find yourself in a certain point in the blues progression, in a certain area of the fingerboard, and doing a certain kind of gesture. The next thing that happens might be a reflex that is one of the same old boring finger patterns that one falls into. My solution is to develop new reflexes. I play these over and over, in all kinds of situations. Once I have absorbed that reflex, then I have something fresh and new to play. So that's my theory: come up with new reflexes. Make them rhythmic, above all. Even note rhythms can really bog one down.

That's a great idea, Larry. Something I do is transcribe sax and trumpet solos on a regular basis. Since they are not written for guitar it forces me to learn new fingerings and phrasing.

When I think of Jimmy Bruno, I think of the tapes where he taught the six different major scale patterns... don't remember anything about melodies in that one... Maybe it's just my bad memory, but I only remember the 6H2, 5V2 (etc) concept (that I never really put into use anyway, nor do I really remember it)...

Never thought of him as a player, as I don't have any of his actual music. But that's me and my dislike for modern jazz guitar.