Chord progression advice needed

I've been playing for almost 30 years now (3 years longer than Jimi lived, is that possible-YIKES!)

I've played thousands of songs of different genres but I find that I don't really understand chord progressions.
What is the theory behind them and what are the most common types?
basically, what is it about them I'm overlooking.
What rules do they follow or what rules do YOU follow when writing or transcribing a song?

I get the harmonized thing and how it related to the major scale, if that helps.
Thanks!

you speak my mind. i got no idea what the jazz-guys are doing. and i would LOVE to throw one or two of the cool progressions into my picking once in a while.

Well... for jazz the best thing to do is harmonize the major scale.

So in C to keep things simple....

C = Cmaj7
D = Dmin7
E = Emin7
F = Fmaj7
G = G7
A = Amin7
B = Bmin7b5
C = Cmaj7

This formula is the same in any key. So just rememebr:

Chord....

1 = maj7
2 = min7
3 = min7
4 = maj7
5 = dom7
6 = mi7
7 = mi7b5
8 = maj7

Then start looking at jazz progressions like 2-5-1's, and 3-6-2-5's.

Using that harmonized major scale a 2-5-1 in the key of C, would be Dmin7-G7-Cmaj7 at it's simplest.

Hope this helps get you started

Actually, in a major key, the vii chord should be fully diminished, not half-diminished (mi7b5)

Actually, in a major key, the vii chord should be fully diminished, not half-diminished (mi7b5)


Half diminished brother. In the key of C: B D F A is half diminished;
Fully diminished would be: B D F Ab, stacked minor thirds, which does not naturally occur in the major scale.

Wangdangdoodle,
First of all, thanks for the reply but that's where I am, I understand the theory behind the harmonized scale and the circle of fifths.

I am looking for whatever is the next rung on the ladder. How do you use this theoretical knowledge to write and transcribe songs or while in the midst of a jam?

This is a very deep question. The best way to approach this would be to look at existing chord progressions and lots of them. Even better would be to see the same tune but with different progressions. That will help you discover the fundamental progression that lies beneath more elaborate versions. For example:

C C C C G G G G C C C C C

can be played as:

C C C C F F G G C C F F C
or
C C C C Dm F G G C
or
Cmaj7 C maj7 7 C6 C6 Dm11 Dm7 G13 G7+5 Cmaj9

Others hear can make many more variations of this. The fundamental structure is that the tonic chord sounds for 4 beats and the dominant sounds for 4. Then tonic for 4. These variations show how the dominant can be prepared by the sub-dom or its relative minor, the ii chord. The tonic chord can have the 6 and 7 as embellishments, which could also be played as Am or Em chords. This is because:

C major 7 = C E G B
Em = E G B
C 6th = C E G A
Am = A C E

Okay, that's one family of chord progressions, where the idea of embellishment leads to the idea of substitution.

Now, how is it that the tonic sounds for 4 beats and the dominant for 4 beats? Where does that come from? Two places: the melody and the ingrained, culturally accepted patterns of tonic and dominant.

For melody, you learn how to harmonize the notes. If the melody is C C E D C, then playing a C chord for that will support that melody. C and E are members of the C major chord. D is a passing tone on a beat beat between E C. Passing tones do not have to be supported by a chord that contains that note as a member.

Now, we are left with the culturally accepted norms of chord playing. In pop music, we are in 4/4 a lot. The pattern of chord changes corresponds the number of bars based on 2, 4, and 8. When the tonic moves to the dominant, it will often be in bar 2, 4, or 8. Rarely will you get a dominant starting in bar 7. This is because most songs are divided into 2, 4, and 8 bar phrases, and the dominant chord is a very effective way of marking a phrase. The iii or vi chord is much less effective at marking a structural change. That is why those chords occur on the weaker beats or bars.

I'm kind of slopping this info out there, but I think if you look at a large body of songs, you will see these principles underneath. Children's songs will show the most basic arrangement of chord patterns. Moving up to more sophisticated music will show that these basic patterns can be elaborated by using chord substitutions. But rarely will the underlying structure of tonic and dominant deviate widely from the nursery rhyme model. Some artists really explore the ways the metrical structure of harmony can be altered. Zappa does that a lot, as do Rush. Most jazz, however, sticks with the underlying standard formulas and alters and embellishes the progressions.

If you could learn roman numeral analysis, where the chords are represented by I ii iii IV V vi vii, you can start to see the underlying patterns of chords more clearly.

In short, chord progressions are based on elaborations and substitutions of the tonic and dominant chords. Maybe you could think of the pre-dominant (ii and IV) chords as a class their own. These chords are used to support the melody, so that the melody note on strong beats is a member of the chord that is sounding. The pattern of chord change is based on the number of beats and bars that are powers of 2.

When I was young, my guitar teacher would give me the chords to All of Me, using a lot of substitutions and embellishments, Freddie Green-style. Then a few weeks later, he would give me the same song, but in a different key and using different types of substitutions. My education came from trying to find out how the two version were similar. Or, put another way, structurally identical.

Wangdangdoodle,
First of all, thanks for the reply but that's where I am, I understand the theory behind the harmonized scale and the circle of fifths.

I am looking for whatever is the next rung on the ladder. How do you use this theoretical knowledge to write and transcribe songs or while in the midst of a jam?


well, as larry's getting at, this is a deep question.

i think the best thing is to get used to how different movements sound. play Dm7-G7-Cmaj7. that's a ii V I...you'll hear those ALL the time.

play Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7. that's a I vi ii V. also very common.

try Cmaj7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7. that's a I iii IV V. think doo-wop on that one.

chances are you've heard all of these before...that's one place to start. get them ingrained in your brain. that'll help you with transcribing. keep in mind, tunes don't always just contain chords that are in the key...keep an ear out for those "oddball chords" that don't seem to belong.

as for writing, personally, i've never written a good song where i start with the chords--melody has to come first for me. once i have a strong melody, i can figure out what scale it comes from or put a bassline to it and figure out the chords from there.

as for "jamming," what do you mean? coming up with "off the cuff" progressions? or how to use inversions of chords (i.e., playing the same chord in different places on the neck of the guitar with the notes in different order) to keep the rhythm playing interesting?

Thanks, lots to look at and think about here.

What you're basically asking is; 'how do I write a song?'

Deep indeed.

All those thousands of songs you've played? Break them down. How many of them use the same progression with a different melody? How many substitute just one chord that seems to make an otherwise really standard progression sound all of a sudden "brand new"?
*you'll find that there really aren't that many truly different chord progressions - a couple of handfuls really. They just get dressed up in different ways*
Find the already existing chord progressions that you like and maybe change one or two of the chords around.
There are "suggestions" but really no rules when you're writing your own things.
Just start 'going for it'.

Well, one way to look at it is that any note can be in a wide variety of chords: A "C" can be the root of a C chord, the third of an A minor chord, the fifth of an F chord or the seventh of a D7 or Dm7 chord.

It could also be the root of a C minor chord, the third of an A flat chord, the fifth of an F minor chord, or the seventh of a D# half-diminished chord or an Edim7 chord.

This is not the full listing, but I hope you see where I'm going.

Half diminished brother. In the key of C: B D F A is half diminished;
Fully diminished would be: B D F Ab, stacked minor thirds, which does not naturally occur in the major scale.

I know, but it's the correct chord nonetheless.

No, it's NOT the correct chord!
Voiced with 4 notes, (as in 7th chords - B D F A) it's a m7b5 or 1/2 diminished (ø) and is diatonic to the the key of "C" - end of story.

B D F and Ab is a fully diminished 7th chord suitable 'now' for nice modulations to 4 other keys (at least).

B D and F, a diminished TRIAD is diatonic to the key of "C" if, and only if, your spelling TRIADS.

I don't know squat about theory so understand that as you read on...

I take part of my practice time and just try different chord forms at different places around the neck. Lately I have been intrigued by the maj7 shape (Fmaj7):




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I found that sliding this shape chromatically up or down a fret or two sounds good with it but so does a m7 barre shape (Cm7):




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Anyway, once I find a few chords that sound good together I try to figure out what key it is then the progression numbers. I guess you can call this "reverse theory" where you start with a result and trace it backwards.

I don't know squat about theory so understand that as you read on...

I take part of my practice time and just try different chord forms at different places around the neck. Lately I have been intrigued by the maj7 shape (Fmaj7):




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I found that sliding this shape chromatically up or down a fret or two sounds good with it but so does a m7 barre shape (Cm7):




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Anyway, once I find a few chords that sound good together I try to figure out what key it is then the progression numbers. I guess you can call this "reverse theory" where you start with a result and trace it backwards.
that is a pretty cool one. thanks!

"I guess you can call this "reverse theory" where you start with a result and trace it backwards".

Lol! Actually not really. ALL theory is reverse theory. Theory (or 'formalization') follows practice. Don't worry about the method - if you like it, it works and it sounds good ... it is good and it's right.

"I guess you can call this "reverse theory" where you start with a result and trace it backwards".

Lol! Actually not really. ALL theory is reverse theory. Theory (or 'formalization') follows practice. Don't worry about the method - if you like it, it works and it sounds good ... it is good and it's right.

I guess what I was getting at was that you could learn the theory and make the chord progressions based on your knowledge OR you can find a nice sounding chord progression and then figure out how it works. I have been trying the second method.

ALL theory is reverse theory. Theory (or 'formalization') follows practice.

Far out, certainly you already know that if you look at how the vii dim chord has been used over the last 300 years, in common practice, you'll see that it's usually fully diminished in major keys when it functions as a dominant or dominant substitute. You'll also find that most compositions will have accidentals whether they change keys temporarily, for long periods, or even when they don't change keys at all. You'll also find a host of chromatically altered chords in regular common and predictable use, especially when they lead to a cadence.

Of course.
But, in a major key - spelling 7th chords (four notes) - you still can't "call" B, D, F and A natural - a diminished chord. Because it isn't one anymore and it isn't functioning as one. That Bm7b5 chord is more than likely - via common practice - now going to function as a ii chord modulating to the key of the Am or A major ( Bm7b5 - E7 - A). Or, if you choose to stay in 'C', it's really just a G9 chord - diatonic V chord (sans root).

And, conversely, Ab will always be considered non-diatonic to the key of C Major. That certainly doesn't mean you can't use it, or that it doesn't sound good. It works great. Just like an E7 chord works great in 'C' - but E7 is still, and always will be, non-diatonic to 'C'.
As soon as a good portion of the western world includes Ab in a C major scale, I for one will be more than happy to add it in there and call it diatonic. I'm not holding my breath though.

It is in the 'C' Harmonic Major scale though ... C D E F G Ab B
http://www.tonalcentre.org/Harmonicma.html

I never said Ab was diatonic in C. What I said was that a Bdim7 was the correct chord to use.

I thought I understood the harmonized thing but I was stuck in arpeggios, never really relating chord tones to a melody. but then I tried the Leon Grizzard method. Basically take any standard progression (I IV V, C F G) and then futz around over each chord with its named pentatonic scale (C maj pent, F maj pent, G maj pent). If the progression has minor chords (ii V I), then use a minor pentatonic when you come to it.

Pentatonics introduce two passing tones for every (triad) arpeggio. What that does in terms of your question, it makes you start to relate a pool of notes to a particular chord, a pool of notes that is more than just the arpeggio, but less than the whole damn major scale or a whole mode, those have too many "avoid" notes and I can't keep track and don't get anywhere and get frustrated. Pentatonic is perfect. When you play a pentatonic scale, you hear the chord. And vice versa begins to happen also, when you play a chord, you hear melodic possibilities that are beyond the chord tones.

So relating a chord to a pentatonic scale really links melody to harmony in a way that's a step more precise than just hunting and pecking chord tones and hoping for the best. I'm really starting to hear implied changes even when just playing a melody, because even when a melody never leaves a key, the pools of notes are shifting in ways I didn't recognize before, but now i do.

Not sure that helped, hard to talk about this stuff, and everybody learns differently anyway. The Leon Grizzard method is working for me right now.

By the way, Larry, that was a mind-blowing post, really really appreciate it. I would really love to learn about harmony.

I never said Ab was diatonic in C. What I said was that a Bdim7 was the correct chord to use.

I think it's your use of the word 'correct' that's problematic. If by 'correct' you mean typical or common then ok. But there's certainly no 'correct' when it comes to composing chord progressions. If your talking about copying an existing chord progression of a song then yes, there is the element of 'correctness'.

So.. to say that Bdim7 is the 'correct' vii chord in the key of Cmaj is ludicrous and just plain wrong as several others have pointed out. It may be the most common choice but that doesn't make it 'correct'.