replacement speak suggestions for fender super champ

hey everybody...i have a mid-80's paul rivera designed fender super champ. i still has the original, fender special design 10" speaker in it. i'm thinking i might want to try something different in it...i play a telecaster, love super clean tones as well as nice break-up blues tones. ultimately i'm looking to gain more bottom end as the fender speaker is a bit too mid range-y for me.

let me hear what you experts have to say!

thanks!
mike

Hey Mike:

You are right, way too much mid range. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about this. I will PM you so we can exchange addresses so I can send you a check and you can send over the amp. This is the only solution to this problem. :wink:

Seriously I think that there might be a problem with the original speaker if it sounds... "not right". I would take it in and have someone that knows how to sweep it tell you if the speaker is okay or not.

Just my .02

Michael

Hey Mike:

You are right, way too much mid range. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about this. I will PM you so we can exchange addresses so I can send you a check and you can send over the amp. This is the only solution to this problem. :wink:

Seriously I think that there might be a problem with the original speaker if it sounds... "not right". I would take it in and have someone that knows how to sweep it tell you if the speaker is okay or not.

Just my .02

Michael

yeah, you're right, i guess i should just get rid of it! :neutral:

seriously, i wouldn't say that speaker sounds "not right", just wondering if a jensen ALnico or weber speaker would drastically change the tonal quality...

Hi Mike:

Naw man, I am just jealous is all... I would love to own a Super Champ!

Whenever you change anything the tone will change, so experiment if you want to.

I would think that the tonal characteristic of the Super Champ is partly due to the speaker that is originally there, so that is why I suggested having an amp dude, sweep for frequency response and check out the speaker. I think the original speaker will most likely be the best for the job. Of course this is just an opinion.

Michael

Mike, I have two SC's. You are correct in thinking that the stock speaker is less than optimal...or at least you and I agree. I run Eminence Alnico's in mine....much better bottom, much smoother distortion, still cut like it they need to. The stock Eminence in there is just flat....no bottom, harsh distortion...to my ear.

Hey Mike, I've got a Champ II, and I'm using a Weber 10a125 30watt in mine and I'm very pleased with it. I've had an emi alnico and it was very good also. I think it broke up a tad sooner than the weber and definitely smoother better distortion also but I wanted a little more clean from mine so I'm using the weber. You should definitely replace the original speaker, it will be an improvement. BTW I've heard one of Wall's SC's and it sounds great.

thanks guys for your thoughts! and experience!

Hi,
The occasional lurker has now signed up. It just happens that I scored an old Fender Super Champ myself the other day - and I'm too thinking of a speaker upgrade. So I'm reading every suggestion with great interest.

My problem right now seems to be that I haven't decided which task I want the Super Champ to perform. I like the idea of a small combo, and I like to see it as a complement to my SF Vibrolux (that I won't drive into break-up until I play stadiums, at least I feel that way) so maybe a speaker that breaks-up a bit earlier would be nice.

Normally I play clean or on the verge of break-up, but the break-up in the Vibrolux has been made by an overdrive pedal (Paul Cochrane Timmy or BJF Honeybee OD).

I have taken notes of what's already been said - but I'm a total newbie when it comes to speaker replacement so I know very little of it all.

Thanks! All input most welcome!

Carl

Welcome, janglesoul. good luck with the little SC...great amps.

Hi again!

After much reading and googling I've decided that all facts considered (including cost and availability) that my choice of replacement speakers for the Super Champ stands between Eminence Ragin Cajun and Eminence Lil' Buddy. I have seen both suggested for the Super Champ in different threads. Both pretty great speakers I'm sure - but for what user and for which amp?

The reason for my indecisiveness is this:
1. I'm worried the Lil Buddy will be too dark and steal the glittery Fender clean.
2. I'm worried the Ragin Cajun will make the Super Champ too trebly and harsh.

Maybe I'm exaggerating this decision? When listening to the clips on the Eminence website I actually think I prefer the Ragin Cajun over the Lil Buddy - but I guess it must depend on the amp driving it too?

So, I'm asking for second opinions - especially from people who know the Super Champ very well. How bright do you find it stock? Can you put in a hemp cone speaker without making it too dark? Does it get to bright with the Ragin Cajun?

I'm looking forward to playing clean/semiclean - classic Fendersound. I play only singlecoil guitars, lately mostly a Telecaster in bridge position with the treble rolled off a bit.

As always I'm grateful for all and any input!

Thanks,

Carl

PS. I posted almost the same question over at TGP as well. I hope nobody takes offence for me doing this. DS.

I have the Ragin Cajun in my SC, you should here these amps with a JBL if you like lottsa bottom end and clean tones. I have a K110 as well; it has a huge bottom end with beautiful clean tones with a Tele.

HI Caper,
Thanks for chiming in! How are you liking your SC/RC-combination?

Cheers,
Carl

You could split the difference and go with the Ramrod -- it's not as bright as the Cajun or as dark as the Buddy. Look at the thread on the Champ II--which is basically the same amp as the Super Champ. The guy e-mailed Eminence and they recommended the Ramrod.

Having owned a Super Champ for many years, I don't think you can really go wrong with any of those three speakers. I would just strongly advise avoiding alnico speakers, which I found sounded very thin with that amplifier.

I don't find the sound of my SC's thin at all with the Alnico Emi's that I have in them.
The amps can do rich, clean surf, jazz or country. They do tweed sonics very convincingly, and they go into high gain very well. The Alnicos provide smooth distortion on the high end, which is one area of the sonics that many people question with these amps. This effect on the high end is exactly why I chose the Alnico. IF it had not done what I thought it would, I would have never repeated the choice for the second amp's speaker.
I wish I had a steady supply of these amps and the Champ II. With the sonics that my amps provide, I could sell two or three a month....every month. With the original speaker, the amps were questionable at best.....definitely not very impressive.
I might concede that something closer to vintage JEnsen C10's would provide a bigger low end, but these Alnicos are sufficient down low, and the amps don't run the risk of being confused with the bass....in other words, they cut. Think BF super REverb with CTS Alnicos....which some feel are the best speakers ever used in SR's.....but in a small package and admittedly less wattage. I have a pro customer who was invited to gig with Bugs HEnderson in the Dallas area. My friend got caught with nothing but his ChampII.. He walked in with a guitar in one hand and the amp in the other. He walked out having worked a great gig and having impressed the band with the little amp. The Alnico speaker cut through. Bugs was using a SR. The band was professional enough to work in a sympathetic manner, but they all reevaluated what they jokingly called..."Bug's amp's baby brother' before the gig started. Sometimes what sounds 'great' in a non-working environment doesn't work with a band. The low end belongs to the bass in most bands, and too much bottom end in a guitar amp can be a waste of time and mush for the overall sound.
As always, ymmv and we all have our own ears. I just know that if I have one of these Super Champs uncovered, everyone is curious . AFter they hear it, they REALLY want to buy it. It soudns like a BF REverb amp, a tweed, and has high gain to boot....with smooth and harmonically-rich distortion. IF I went with a ceramic speaker, it would have to have smooth highs when pushed. IF one only wants clean, I supose that one's choice is simplified. I also think that is missing the point of this amp, but that is a personal thing. Mike, the original poster, did make the point that he used some breakup. Harsh distortion is to be avoided imo.

I think the JBL has an alnico magnet and believe me it sounds anything BUT thin. The only reason why I even bothered to try the RC was to decrease the weight due to knee problems.

Carl as far as the RC goes I'm satisfied with it, we have 3 Teles here; 1 with a Classic Series Bridge/Rio-Grande neck, another with Kinman Broadcasters, and the other with Duncan Designed pickups. This speaker is a good match for all the guitars. I don't use it over 4 or 5 on the volume for the most part and it has plenty of bottom before it starts to break up without sounding too harsh. My son tried it on the Lead setting and it broke up quite nicely; sounded much better than the original and the JBL for a bit of dirt. The price was right too, I think I paid roughly $50 for it here in Canada.

A friend of mine has a Weber 10F150T, it sounded good to me but he felt the Weber was better suited for a bigger box like a Princeton.

Thanks Wally for nice information and a healthy perspective on the need for lowend!

Caper - I think I'm gravitating towards the Ragin Cajun more and more. Thanks/C

If the JBL was heavy, it wasn't alnico. Alnico speakers are lighter than ceramic.

I don't know about the Emi alnicos, but the Jensen P10R was thin and wimpy with zero bass with this amp. Rivera designed it for ceramic, so that's the safest route IMO.

This thread -- and the one on the Champ II -- led me to put the Eminence Ramrod back in the custom pine 1 x 10 cabinet you see pictured in my avatar. I'm always testing speakers and most recently had a Weber alnico in there. Anyway, I'm grateful for these threads because I'm rediscovering what a FANTASTIC speaker the Ramrod is. I have owned the Eminence Cajun, Copperhead, and Ramrod tens, and the Ramrod is clearly my personal favorite. It is not overly mid-focused or dark like many British style speakers -- it is just extremely smooth and balanced, very punchy and present.

It's present?

Hi again!

After much reading and googling I've decided that all facts considered (including cost and availability) that my choice of replacement speakers for the Super Champ stands between Eminence Ragin Cajun and Eminence Lil' Buddy. I have seen both suggested for the Super Champ in different threads. Both pretty great speakers I'm sure - but for what user and for which amp?

The reason for my indecisiveness is this:
1. I'm worried the Lil Buddy will be too dark and steal the glittery Fender clean.
2. I'm worried the Ragin Cajun will make the Super Champ too trebly and harsh.

Maybe I'm exaggerating this decision? When listening to the clips on the Eminence website I actually think I prefer the Ragin Cajun over the Lil Buddy - but I guess it must depend on the amp driving it too?

So, I'm asking for second opinions - especially from people who know the Super Champ very well. How bright do you find it stock? Can you put in a hemp cone speaker without making it too dark? Does it get to bright with the Ragin Cajun?

I'm looking forward to playing clean/semiclean - classic Fendersound. I play only singlecoil guitars, lately mostly a Telecaster in bridge position with the treble rolled off a bit.

As always I'm grateful for all and any input!

Thanks,

Carl

PS. I posted almost the same question over at TGP as well. I hope nobody takes offence for me doing this. DS.

I've owned a Fender Super Champ for as long as I can remember and I've taken it well through it's courses. In terms of what I think about the stock speaker I can say it actually sounds pretty good. It has much of the Fender upper-end clarity and fat warm mids you would expect (I haven't had any experience with treble harshness). But as many folks have already noted, the low-end leaves much to be desired. The speaker always farts out when you dig in on the low notes, especially with humbuckers. Not cool.

I have a buddy who put in an Emi Ragin Cajun, as a matter of fact, and it sounded great to my ears. However, I think it's important to note that I only heard him play a 335 through it and not a Fender so I am not 100% on what to expect.

A final point I want to make with HUGE emphasis is the fact that the super champ is a tube amp and it really does sound twice as good if not three times as good if you run the volume at 7 or above. 7 is really when the harmonicly rich, fat & warm, 3 dimensional sounding tube tone opens up (with clean single coils you will be in sonic bliss). This is how you will really hear what any given speaker has to offer.

I've owned a Fender Super Champ for as long as I can remember and I've taken it well through it's courses. In terms of what I think about the stock speaker I can say it actually sounds pretty good. It has much of the Fender upper-end clarity and fat warm mids you would expect (I haven't had any experience with treble harshness). But as many folks have already noted, the low-end leaves much to be desired. The speaker always farts out when you dig in on the low notes, especially with humbuckers. Not cool.

I have a buddy who put in an Emi Ragin Cajun, as a matter of fact, and it sounded great to my ears. However, I think it's important to note that I only heard him play a 335 through it and not a Fender so I am not 100% on what to expect.

A final point I want to make with HUGE emphasis is the fact that the super champ is a tube amp and it really does sound twice as good if not three times as good if you run the volume at 7 or above. 7 is really when the harmonicly rich, fat & warm, 3 dimensional sounding tube tone opens up (with clean single coils you will be in sonic bliss). This is how you will really hear what any given speaker has to offer.

Welcome, Ross. Old thread here....no problem, though.
I am curious about your stock speaker. I have seen two different speakers as stock in the Super champs. The Eminence ceramic that was in one of mine was useless to my ears...thin, harsh....nothing good about its sonics, imho. Another Super Champ that I have seen and heard has an OEM Pyle ceramic as the stock speaker. IT has good lows and smooth highs. However, it does not match the EMi Alnicos I run in my Super Champs for articulation. IT is muddy compared to the Emi Alnico.

Hoodster wrote a year ago September: "I don't know about the Emi alnicos, but the Jensen P10R was thin and wimpy with zero bass with this amp. Rivera designed it for ceramic, so that's the safest route IMO. "

The modern JEnsen P10R cannot be compared to the Eminence alnico or the WEber Alnico...both of which are top of the class cpeakers when looking for an Alnico, imho. I have no use for that JEnsen, either.

Hey Guys,
I just dug out my early 80's Super Champ and I haven't played through it in years..I mean like 20 years!
Anyway it's missing 2 tubes I think they're the preamp tubes, another words the 2nd and 3rd from the right when your looking at them facing the back.
What were the tubes that are missing and are there other types that you guys might recommend for other types of sound.

I'd forgotten all about this thing I now I'm told it's the holy grail of 1/10 amps.
I bought it new in 83ish at Zaverellas Music in Arlington Va. from Phil or Keith when they were still open.
Older Washington guys will remember the store. Danny Gatton was one of Phil Zavarella's best friends since childhood and would hang out there back in the day.
DG bought a number of his 53 teles from Phil...

Anyway let me know what you guys think about the tubes...any other suggestions would be great.
Thanks
Chip

I have a Super Champ. The tubes, starting on the right facing the rear are: 12AX7, 12AT7 and then 6C10. The 6C10 is a triple triode. Antique Electronics has them in stock now (at least they did a few weeks ago).
As Wally mentioned, the Eminence in mine was less than inspiring. I replaced it with a Celestion Gold and now all is good with the world.
Edited to add: It looks like you need a 12AT7 and a 6C10.

INYO,
Thanks
As I remember I wasn't as nuts about this amp as a lot of people were and are.
The speaker is a 10 Fender Special Design with a blue label, the label looks similar to the original jensens in a 66 blackface Vibrolux I once owned. This is the original speaker that came with the amp, is it an eminence?
I remember the amp sounded great when you ran the amp into a 4/10 sealed cab with celestians.

tele0053, look at the speaker code stamped on the mounting flange. Eminence is 67. The speaker you describe sounds just like the one I had in mine.I just went in to look at my old speaker and my cat Buster is sleeping on the box. He is a grouchy old fart and I didn't want to bother him.
I did a cap job on mine, and it is really tight quarters inside the chassis. You can't wave the soldering iron all over the place. Rivera crammed a lot of amp in a very small package.

Yup..there it is 67 guess it's the eminence.
I never fiddled too much with this amp I remember it being a bit plinky and thin. But pretty powerful for a little guy.
What would you recommend speaker wise that pull a bit more bass, like say a late 50's tweed champ?
I had a 56 or 57 champ with one chicken head volume knob about 25 years ago and it was one of the best studio blues amps I ever through, especially in a natural reverb situation say an unfinished basement.

tele0053, if you are asking my advice on speakers, I'll let someone who is more familiar with what's available today give you an answer.

I don't have a Super Champ but I did just go through quite a speaker comparison including several of the ones the OP was considering. I have an Allen Chihuahua and tried about 9 or 10 different 10" speakers including the Ragin Cajun, Lil Buddy, Copperhead, a Celestion, Eminence 1028 and 1058, Jensen P10Q, a Jensen ceramic, a couple of Warehouse speakers, and several 12" speakers. The one I came away think was the best sounding and got the most out of the amp was a Guitar Warehouse G10C.

tele0053, that OEM Eminence is very midrangey...no lows, harsh highs, to my ears. I put Eminence LEgend alnico 1028's in my two super Champs....good lows, good sparkle and smooth on the top when pushed.
This speaker lets the little amp do the BF REverb clean well, it can yield good tweed tones, and it handles the hi-gain function.
As for the V2 position, this tube handles the reverb drive; and when the Lead function is chosen, the first triode is 'stolen' from the reverb circuit to provide that gain stage. I am going to try a 5751 in this slot in the future, since the 12AT7 may not be the best tone tube for this gain purpose.

I am going to try a 5751 in this slot in the future, since the 12AT7 may not be the best tone tube for this gain purpose.

I was going to try the same thing just the other day. I had just recieved a new 5751 and was itching to try it out. I ended up using it in the V2 position of my Marshall 800. It made the overdrive channel a bit less insane.

I posted this in the super champ owners club but thought I would throw it in here as well.

I like to use a super clean amp setting and allow my pedals to color the sound. With that in mind I had the guy at "Eurotubes" recommend a retube to get as much clean headroom as possible. It really made a difference; I'm able to get the amp up really loud before there is any break up. My question to any out there; is there a replacement speaker you would recommend to raise the clean headroom up even more? My buddy says that i need a british "voiced" speaker as he put it. I can't wait to here the opinions of those a little more knowledgeable.

Bennie, if you want to hear that Super Champ without any speaker coloration and with as much headroom as possible, I say get an EV.
It would be of interest if you could explain what tubes were sold to you. Fwiw, there is no way to increase the power through the tubes, ime. I am going to guess that they sold you some 'cold' 6V6's that restrict the current draw, yield low plate dissipation, and therefore allow you to turn the volume up before you incur distortion. That doesn't mean that the amp is louder than before...just that it is not distorting at the control settings where it once would distort. Regardless, imho, much of this 'tube searching' with gain/volume/distortion in mind can be avoided just by running the amp's controls and the guitar's controls in such a way as to maximize what the whole equation has to offer.
The Super Champ yields such wonderful pure-tube gain tones...when the right speaker is in the amp.....that I would never put a distortion or boost pedal on mine. And....I can set all of my gain/volume controls on 10...and get clean sonics by controlling my guitar's output. YMMV...

NOt long ago, a young fellow wanted to try out a 6G2 Princeton that I have here. This amp is a beautiful tone machine. Put the amps' volume anywhere from 7 to max on the dieal, and you can get clean to scream just by controlling the pick attack and/or the gutiar's volume. The young fellow just couldn't get past having to have a pedal for distortion. HE wanted to run the amp at 2.5 on the volume dial....and the amp is simply anemic down there, imho. "Why turn it on?"
I prefer tube sonics to solid state sonics in the clean mode, but tube harmonics when the power tubes are driven hard are simply things of beauty. Ime, that is where the 'meat' of the signal is. That is one reason why little amps are so popular in recording studios.....it doesn't matter if the amp is 5 watts or 100 watts....the amp needs to be turned up in order for the circuit to really produce up to its full potential. IT is easier to record a small amp because the SPL are not great enough to cause other problems.....bleed over, excess voluem...whatever.
All of that said, each to his own......

Wally you're right about the tubes; that why your a dr.. Anyway, I do use the amps overdrive for a lot of the stuff I write. However, I am doing a Pink Floyd thing with a couple guys. I going into a compressor, large beaver, tube driver, electric mistress and delay. I've got a Leslie sim running to a separate amp; I mix it in real low for a subtle modulation. My wording about increased volume was incorrect.

I saw a guy over in the super champ club who has made his into a head driving a 2-12 cab. That looks interesting. I've tried a couple different amps throughout the years but I have a soft spot for the little champ "my dad got it for me in 84. I have a semi-rare dean markley RM-150-DR with 4-12 cab but it is solid-state with a tube preamp; big muffs are made to drive tubes so it just doesn't work.

Here are the tubes: a pair of JJ 6V6 S, JJ ECC83S and a JJ ECC81.

Wally, which EV?

Thanks,