What happened to the "FREE GIVEAWAY" thread?

I was just checking back through the "Free giveaway" thread from a couple of days back (where skydawg was very generously giving away his copy of The Telecaster Book).

Congrats to the winner, SoulPedro - you'll really enjoy the book!

However, I notice that the donor, skydawg, now has the word "Removed" underneath his name....:confused:

Did I miss something, or has he just decided to quit the forum? I thought that was a cool gesture - maybe he's giving away his guitars too!...:lol:

Skydawg neglected to ask for permission to run his giveaway, and didn't like being told by Paul (privately) that, while the giveaway would be allowed as it was already happening, such things aren't actually allowed without prior permission. He responded with a couple of very angry threads that were also deleted, and he quit the TDPRI.

Cheers, Tim

Oh. OK.

Thanks, Tim...:cool:

His loss! I couldnt imagine my ego making me give up this site.

seems a shame though as he was making a nice gesture. Any chance of a reconciliation? Tele-lovers should stick together.

I didn't even get a chance to read those angry threads before they were deleted. I guess the moderators are doing a good job protecting the rest of us from the darker sides of the TDPRI.

Crap. I was, like, number 39.

How is one supposed to know that they need permission to give something away? I would never have guessed that. Giving away a tele book to a TDPRI brother seem rather in the spirit of this board. I can understand that he possibly responded poorly, but i am confused as to why one would need permission to float a tele book to a fellow TDPRIer? Unless it should have been posted in the classifieds? I am not trying to be a nudge, but i would really like to know what the initial infraction was as i, looking around the room, once contemplated giving a few things away on here too and it never occurred to me that it would be against the rules to, say, flip some saddles to someone on here.

-kp8--

Fellers... try, if you can, to not oversimplify this. Accept that 'something' went on and that the result is that a member chose to leave the site. It was not one incident or one thing... some stuff we should just let go.

Fellers... try, if you can, to not oversimplify this. Accept that 'something' went on and that the result is that a member chose to leave the site. It was not one incident or one thing... some stuff we should just let go.

Alrighty then.

moving on...

Then, it seems that I'm still unlucky as always ! ;)

It all seems a little childish really. Overreaction by both parties. To be honest I can't see the problem with giving stuff away, if I had some tele stuff I wanted to give away I would have posted it here without any thought that it may be 'against the rules'!
The guy who was giving the book away should be supported not put in a position where he feels that he has to leave the forum.

The top of the forum page says 'treat everyone with respect, no matter how difficult that may be' I wonder just how respected skydawg feels.

This could have been handled so much better than it was.

It all seems ....

This could have been handled so much better than it was.

We don't know how it was handled. We don't know what transpired. So we can't really judge can we? This is a job for the mods. I say, since we don't have the full story, we just butt out.

all imo

I say, since we don't have the full story, we just butt out.

Agreed! Paul's place - Paul's rules. If skydawg had asked in advance he might have been given an OK, but he didn't. As Tim says, he got mad when the rules were explained to him.

One thing puzzels me though: If skydawg himself decided to quit, why does it say 'removed' under his name? Ole Fuzzy is still 'Doctor of teleocity', and Heather Ann Peel is still a 'Friend of Leo's'.

Agreed! Paul's place - Paul's rules. If skydawg had asked in advance he might have been given an OK, but he didn't. As Tim says, he got mad when the rules were explained to him.

One thing puzzels me though: If skydawg himself decided to quit, why does it say 'removed' under his name? Ole Fuzzy is still 'Doctor of teleocity', and Heather Ann Peel is still a 'Friend of Leo's'.

what happened to Ole Fuzzy?

We need that "popcorn eatin" smilie like I've seen at other sites....:mrgreen:


http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/munch.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/munch.gif)

...

We need that "popcorn eatin" smilie like I've seen at other sites...
http://www.ronaldreagan.com/forums/images/smilies/old_ubb_smilies/popcorn.gif

A little disconcerting...a good thing turning bad...Im sure there was a negative reaction to it..I almost did the same myself...Had my songs removed from twangers central, because it was a myspace link..and I see many myspace links there...still....but I decided to just let it go...I just realized, that this is Pauls place..with his rules...and they are subject to his interpretation, and his choice of enforcement..I could have reacted in a more negative manner, and left as well... This "rule" about no giveaways is new to me as well...but Im not going to jump to any conclusions as to what is or was right or wrong. What goes around comes around, so I hope he is rewarded somehow somewhere for his good intentions.

...

i was just thinking the same thing.
:mrgreen:

I'll jump in here and try to fill the vacuum that all these questions are leaving.

First, anyone that wants to start a FREE GIVEAWAY and make up the rules and decide how to pick an winner and such would have to check with me first. The simple truth is it's not your website, so you can't suddenly decided to do something with the TDPRI (such as this) and not think that you need to ask first.

The TDPRI stages "Giveaways" not every member that has a spare pickguard in his workshop. Can you go down to the public radio station grab a mic and stage a giveaway for all the other public radio members? No, you can't.

This keeps commercial, quasi-commercial and other interests from using and abusing the TDPRI. It keeps members on the up and up. Did "Skydawg" ship the book? I don't think he had anything more to do with it when he was told he should have asked first.

By the way "Skydawg" had been in many fights, lots of trouble and had been suspended once before. He had been warned by numerous mods on numerous occasions. You guys just never see this and just don't know this is going on.

When I asked him "please don't ever do that again without checking with me first" He emailed me back "Take your self serving forum and shove it up your pompous ass" and this got him banned. I changed the rank under his avatar from "banned" to "removed" thinking that this better represented what happened to him.

If you want to use the TDPRI for ANY purpose other than it's intended purpose you must check with me before doing so. I think that should be pretty clear even without my saying it but for some people it's not.

The other two TDPers mentioned are not banned. They are on self-imposed exiles and could return if they wished.

CatfishStudios... I made a mistake deleting your MySpace links. I'm sorry. Originally we didn't allow anything there but direct links. So, when I saw yours I removed it and we emailed each other about it. I even went so far as to post a notice in TC asking that folks not do that anymore. But then I looked around and found there were so many instances of it, I thought about it and and decided I was wrong. So, I removed my notice. I should have emailed you back and informed you of all of that. Sorry that I forgot to do that.

I hope this helps clear up some of these questions that you might have.

It all seems a little childish really. Overreaction by both parties. To be honest I can't see the problem with giving stuff away, if I had some tele stuff I wanted to give away I would have posted it here without any thought that it may be 'against the rules'!
The guy who was giving the book away should be supported not put in a position where he feels that he has to leave the forum.

The top of the forum page says 'treat everyone with respect, no matter how difficult that may be' I wonder just how respected skydawg feels.

This could have been handled so much better than it was.

As already mentioned in passing, this wasn't the "whole story". Skydawg has been walking a thin line for some time now, and has received multiple warnings in the past two weeks.

Threads like Skydawg's aren't allowed to be posted by ANYONE without prior permission from Paul. Skydawg was informed of this in the same manner anyone else would be and chose to leave over it.

On a woodworking forum I go to, there is an "auction" section. Whoever has something to give away auctions it, the money goes to the forum. Thats an option.

The TDPRI stages "Giveaways" not every member that has a spare pickguard in his workshop. Can you go down to the public radio station grab a mic and stage a giveaway for all the other public radio members? No, you can't.

...

If you want to use the TDPRI for ANY purpose other than it's intended purpose you must check with me before doing so. I think that should be pretty clear even without my saying it but for some people it's not.


Without your saying so, it was, to this forumite, very far from obvious.

I wouldn't think to compare it to a radio station. The more obvious comparison to my mind would be other internet experiences and i have seen tons of give away / pay it forward type threads on pretty much every other forum i have been on (including the wonderful one on the gear page a year or so back), which is why it wasn't so obvious to me that this was an infraction.

Well... it is clear now...

Thanks for the clarification.

best,

kevin

Without your saying so, it was, to this forumite, very far from obvious. I wouldn't think to compare it to a radio station.

Websites like the TDPRI have become more and more of a publishing media. As popularity and costs have gone up and up they've become corporations. You mentioned "the Gear Page." They've incorporated, hired attorneys on a regular basis, and now ask for voluntary subscriptions among other ways that they earn income for the site.

They have huge monthly costs -- they spend in a month what the internet forums doing "pay it forward" giveaways paid in 5 to 10 years of costs.

You wouldn't go to McDonalds, stand on a table and call everyone around to have a giveaway. Of course, not. But how is that different than here? You can't use McDonalds for some purpose of your own other than what McDonalds is in business for. It belongs to the corporation. They decide what is allowed and what is not. You understand this because that's how you see it.

I know for many people this concept is nebulous. To some, maybe to a lot of folks the TDPRI just "exists" for all of us. But it takes huge effort, massive amounts of manpower and costs more than a compact car to keep running every single year.

On a woodworking forum I go to, there is an "auction" section. Whoever has something to give away auctions it, the money goes to the forum. Thats an option.

Someone offering some extra item they've got for free to a good home is not prohibited and has gone one without any interruption. But Post a FREE GIVEAWAY looking for 200 entires and the poster will choose the winner at random is not the same thing at all.

And that is what this was.

Plus, there used to be a Free to a Good Home section of the Classifieds but it was removed because it was never used.

Websites like the TDPRI have become more and more of a publishing media. As popularity and costs have gone up and up they've become corporations. You mentioned "the Gear Page." They've incorporated, hired attorneys on a regular basis, and now ask for voluntary subscriptions among other ways that they earn income for the site.

They have huge monthly costs -- they spend in a month what the internet forums doing "pay it forward" giveaways paid in 5 to 10 years of costs.

You wouldn't go to McDonalds, stand on a table and call everyone around to have a giveaway. Of course, not. But how is that different than here? You can't use McDonalds for some purpose of your own other than what McDonalds is in business for. It belongs to the corporation. They decide what is allowed and what is not. You understand this because that's how you see it.

I know for many people this concept is nebulous. To some, maybe to a lot of folks the TDPRI just "exists" for all of us. But it takes huge effort, massive amounts of manpower and costs more than a compact car to keep running every single year.

You put me in a hard spot. You have your reasons and i guess we will just leave at that, but i can see several ways in which the TDPRI is not McDonalds and how the above is a bit inconsistent. But talking about it makes it look like i am questioning you leading to me automatically come off like the bad guy and then follows the 80000, "it's Paul's house you are jerk, if you don't like it" (really it is about understanding it, not whether or not i like it, but that is too nuanced for an internet forum) ... I simply can't discuss this on the points and endure the gigantoid anti-kp8 pile just so that i could understand better.

You have your reasons. I don't quite understand what the issue is, but i don't need to. I'll live.

I know the TDPRI takes a huge amount effort and cost to keep it running. I am grateful for your efforts.

best,

kevin

Hey Kevin, not trying to box you in.

For a lot of folks the idea that someone "owns" the TDPRI and that is is the same as any other business is a foreign concept. I understand that. My point with McDonalds is to say... like any other business no one but the owner can decide to take matters into their own hands and start operating on their own without at least inquiring with the owner if that activity is OK.

That is the part that seems obvious to me. And, I hear you that it didn't seem obvious to you.

No problem.

Okay. I think I understand now. Your last two posts certainly make it a lot clearer. Thanks again~

rock on,

kevin

No problems on my part Paul...I'm very new here..and just learning my place. I can understand that moderation of a forum of this magnitude would be difficult at best. Thats why I mentioned my song links issue, to show that even if I see some inconstancy, I'm not going to become childish about it..its your cost and burden to bare..and I'm sure its not cheap to host a forum this size. I believe that you all do a great job keeping the peace, and filtering out the trolls and spammers. Keep up the good work, and don't let unfortunate circumstances get ya down. The wealth of knowledge that you have made accessible in one place, is astounding..and I for one, have an immense appreciation for this place where left wing, right wing, young and old, atheist or christian...can converse without it getting ugly, on a subject that unites us all...our common love of music and the Telecaster. Keep up the good works

Okay, then. Let's say someone wanted to give something away via the TDPRI, like a book, or a handmade strap, or a pickguard or whatever, purely to be generous and thank Paul and the members for the good times we get from belonging here. Could this be forwarded to Paul, for the annual fundraising giveaway?

We need that "popcorn eatin" smilie like I've seen at other sites....:mrgreen:


http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/munch.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/munch.gif)

I've become a big fan of this one.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/Guitar_Ninja_2099/facepalm.gif

Not for the Fundraiser.

The Fundraiser is very specific... must be items donated from a company, not a member. I don't want members to give up their stuff. Businesses have something to gain. So let them bare this burden.

And, with experience I've learned that too many little items is a hassle to handle. It takes exactly the same amount of work to giveaway a $2000 guitar as to give away a $5 used fake book (not that that is what you are saying). Plus, people only want to win the big stuff. They're disappointed when they win the little stuff. I won't even accept little (inexpensive) items from companies. We want big expensive items and we want a LOT of them.

So, no, we wouldn't take things from members to giveaway in the Fundraiser. We'd sure appreciate the thought and the offer, but I've learned via experience to be extremely specific about these items.

In the past we've had a few that offered items for sale on Ebay or in the Classifieds, and with some discussion with me they've offered the proceeds to support the TDPRI. That has worked just fine. We've even had "auctions" via PM that was announced on the page. But that too was agreed at between me and the kind donor.

I'm still trying to get my head around this one.....:confused:

Someone offering to kindly donate a small, inexpensive but useful gift seemed like a really generous thing to do - and there were close on 200 members who must have appreciated it 'cos they were only too pleased to sign up to it.

It didn't seem to me like the donor was seeking any personal gain, and I suspect that he was trying to avoid the situation where if he had said "Anyone who would like it, just shoot me a PM" - clearly, his mailbox would have been jammed (we're only allowed 150 messages in total), and the last 50 folks may have called "foul" when their PMs could not have been accepted.

I saw that the donor opened the thread by saying that he had PMd our moderator Tim Armstrong to tell him what was going on and to give him the winning number in advance - presumably to avoid anyone suspecting any funny business. In hindsight, it might have been better if Tim had enforced the forum rules regarding "Give Aways" straight away, by posting a simple explanation and locking the thread. I have to be honest - like kp8, until Paul specifically advised that Give Aways are against the rules, I would never have dreamed that there was anything wrong in trying to give something to another member in this way. Blimey - if I recall, the donor even offered to pay the postage!

I guess I'm now another member who has learned a little more about the nuances of the forum rules. I suppose the best advice for anyone in the future is "If in doubt, ask the owner's permission first", but it would take a hard man not to have some sympathy for the guy who set out to be a benefactor yet ended up getting kicked off the forum....

The Fundraiser is very specific... must be items donated from a company, not a member. I don't want members to give up their stuff. Businesses have something to gain.

So, no, we wouldn't take things from members to giveaway in the Fundraiser.
Just so I'm absolutely clear here - are we saying that companies are not allowed to be members of the forum, as that would preclude them from donating to the Fundraiser?

Glad I'm not running a forum - seems like it's a bit of a minefield!...:shock:

I'd note that Skydawg didn't ask me in advance, he just put up his giveaway and PMed me with the winning number, something I didn't actually read until things were well underway (I have a hard time checking in on the TDPRI while driving the bus!).

I'd also note that Paul didn't quash the giveaway, and all communications with Skydawg were done privately. He was going to be allowed to go through with the giveaway, and he didn't have to get upset. But he did, and in a fairly spectacular manner! Most of y'all didn't catch that, because we quickly deleted his very unpleasant ranting...

Skydawg didn't get kicked off the TDPRI for trying to give away a book. He got tossed for going absolutely ballistic AND posting that he was quitting. We won't mention the PMs and emails...

Cheers, Tim

Glad I'm not running a forum - seems like it's a bit of a minefield!...:shock:

The longer I help as a moderator, the more I see that it is indeed a minefield!

Cheers, Tim

IM not Paul but I have known him for along time here is what I think the prob was.

Someone posts a message on the main Telecasster forum and says free giveaway to the first 200 people. Thats all it said I thought the highest posters were the only ones allowed so highest poster1 me to 200 would be allowed to win. Then Skydawg said it was the thread message number. The rules were confiusing from the start it wasnt done right and it creates un-necessary attention towards 1 member kinda like saying oh look at how cool I am Im giving away something for free.

Thats why I think it was wrong but Im sure Paul has his own ideas.

http://our.pix.free.fr/dfb/suzukisakural03.jpg

Glad I'm not running a forum - seems like it's a bit of a minefield!...:shock:

Right. This thread is a classic case of just that. There are several elements that we choose not to share because we try look out for EVERYONE (even the folks who have problems with us) and I delicately asked if we could leave it alone and trust that we'd considered the issue and made a decision... But, that wasn't enough... the thread continued to grind on one element.

Can you give things to people on this forum? Sure, I've given many things to members here. If I have something that would help someone and I want them to have it. I send it. I NEVER publicize that nor have I ever asked anyone to mention it.... it is done as a friend, a good thing to do and it makes me happy... it isn't for any other purpose.

Can you run your own contests on this site? NO.

Can you have a fun game or funny thread or something and send something to someone who cracks you up? Sure, why not.

Can you run contests here? NO.

Was SkyDawg's contest the sole reason or the main reason he is no longer here? NO.

So, what is left 'to get our heads around'. If a guy is nasty and argumentative and unwilling to see the mods position (even if they disagree) and how it could be a problem and if a person can't be respectful and if folks are foul in their response... life is too short to have those kinds of folks around....

Hey FMSM,

Yes, portrayed the way you did it, it is a mine field. But it's actually much simpler than all that.

A member decides totally on his own to devise a contest for the members of the TDPRI. He decides what is appropriate. He decides what the rules are. And he proudly announces HIS creation where? Not on HIS website, but on someone else's website. Not only that. He shoots a PM to the newest moderator saying "Hey I'm doing this just so you know." And, then goes ahead without waiting for a response.

By the time I saw it a number of people had responded to his "Announcement". I would have removed the thread and contacted him. Instead I said nothing to him. Waited until it was over and told him to "please never presume that he had the authority to do such a thing again without asking me first."

To which he called me a pompous ass.

If you start a website, let me assure you that you will not appreciate it when certain users of that site decide that they are in charge and are free to do anything that pops into their heads in your website. And, asking you if it's OK to do so is not only too much to ask but it makes you a pompous ass.

(Your other part about "commercial" members and giveaway items is just missing the point entirely. The difference is between you giving me your guitar and Rich Rice's company donating a guitar in exchange for the publicity involved. I'm pretty sure that this is a clear distinction.)

IM not Paul but I have known him for along time here is what I think the prob was

...

Thats why I think it was wrong but Im sure Paul has his own ideas.

No need to bust out the ol' crystal ball:

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/1345845-post40.html
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/1345606-post33.html
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/1345458-post28.html
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/1345433-post26.html
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/1345420-post25.html
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/1345329-post21.html

Since this is really a "Forum Problems and Issues" issue, I've moved the thread out of the main forum.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/21/article-0-02035F6900000578-20_224x519_popup.jpg

I must be missing something here, I can not fine anything in the guidelines and rules about give-a-way's what's so every.

Where would I fine them?

Thanks, Jeff

P.S. I understand where you are coming from, I just can't fine anything in the guidelines or rules.

I don't think its a written rule just more of a "don't set up a lemonade stand on your neighbors front yard without asking them first" common sense kinda thing.

However I could be wrong and I often am... :grin:

Can you give things to people on this forum? Sure, I've given many things to members here. If I have something that would help someone and I want them to have it. I send it. I NEVER publicize that nor have I ever asked anyone to mention it.... it is done as a friend, a good thing to do and it makes me happy... it isn't for any other purpose.

I've done this many times myself, and I can assure everyone that it was NOT a problem :wink: ...

I'm unable to see that Paul's rules - written or unwritten - should cause problems for anyone. To me it would just FEEL wrong to start something like this Give Away on Paul's site.

If anyone doesn't realize this, I guess it's because they don't WANT to realize it :oops: .

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/21/article-0-02035F6900000578-20_224x519_popup.jpg

Hey Kev, good to see you two crazy kids have patched things up.... Get her some nice dichondra... she'll love it!

I must be missing something here, I can not fine anything in the guidelines and rules about give-a-way's what's so every.

It is not "in the rules" that because you do not own the TDPRI you can't presume to create your own contests to suit your particular whim.

Just as it doesn't need to be a rule that since you are not the owner of someone else's house that you can't, on your own initiative, decide to plan a party at your neighbors house without first checking with him.

If I made a rule for every possible thing that anyone could possibly think up that isn't appropriate here the rules would be 12 pages long.

This isn't a problem of rules, this is simply a problem of presumption. While many here say "it's Paul's house" there are some that see no reason to check in with the owner before going off on some scheme that they have cooked up.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/21/article-0-02035F6900000578-20_224x519_popup.jpg

Ahem...

Excuse me, but that is FAMILY that you're messin' with there!

I can see where some of you guys are sympathizing with a fellow forum member who seemed to be a nice guy doing a nice thing.

But frankly, given the previous behavior of the individual in question on other threads, it seemed like a train wreck coming (the "drummer jokes" thread comes to mind). I just don't think he had the temperment for this forum and might be happier in a no-holds-barred-free-for-all forum like maybe the HC.

The issue isn't as much the giveaway as much as how he reacted to being told to simply check first before leaping the next time. To me, common sense dictates that you should ask first before trying something like a giveaway, a fundraiser (no matter how good your intentions, or any other thing like that without checking with the people that run the forum.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/21/article-0-02035F6900000578-20_224x519_popup.jpg

Are u one of our Kiwi friends ?

But frankly, given the previous behavior of the individual in question on other threads, it seemed like a train wreck coming (the "drummer jokes" thread comes to mind). I just don't think he had the temperment for this forum and might be happier in a no-holds-barred-free-for-all forum like maybe the HC.

Yeah, I have a friend who moderates for a fairly large forum. He's said that generally 99% of the people on the forums never really cause much of a disturbance and certainly never come up against a mod in any serious way. If they do it's for leeching images or something trivial like that.

Then there's the other 1%. They end up constantly running up against the mods and warring with other posters. For whatever reason many of them also end up believing that the mods "have it in for them" and that it's some kind of personal vendetta when they get in hot water for the umpteenth time. They'll write "I know you have it in for me, but..." and he generally has no recollection of who this poster is until he checks the long rap sheet of prior offenses. Then it all starts to make sense.

When these posters get banned or choose to leave, and eventually they always do, it's never through any fault of their own, but due to some grand conspiracy on the part of the "powers that be" to get them booted. Unfair rules, power trip, and all that.

I would assume it was something along those lines as again, I've been told by someone in the know that it almost always is.

A LOT of truth in what GN has said. That mirrors our experiences here to a "T". And many times it is the more memorable members that do this and get in this situation. And, you're right it is always someone else's fault.

Even well-behaved folks get in a bind sometimes but when you email those guys they always give you a reasonable, polite and contrite response and usually apologize for making the mod have to do more work.

But some guys just grind you into the ground and wear it like a badge. And warning them and even suspending them for a few days or a week doesn't change one thing.

It always makes you wonder about what kind of anger they're portraying in their every day lives -- to their coworkers, their wives and the kids.

cEL2sr4ZcOs

we all need the 5th beatle sometimes... this song sums it all up....

and Burt Sugarman still got paid. dig it.

I've never posted anything here that I thought would cause problems and when
something does blow up in my face it's a big WTF moment for me... :shock:


Anytime one of my threads starts getting a lot of replies now I start getting nervous.

.. :grin:

http://blogues.cyberpresse.ca/lagace/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/duty-calls.gif