NOS tubes vs todays tubes

Is there any advantage of using NOS tubes compared to say a new set of JJ's? Do they actually sound better? Is the quality better or is it just cork sniffing?

Do NOS tubes sound better than current production tubes?
YES.
Do NOS tubes sound better than current production tubes at 5X the price?
Again YES....but not worth it IMO.
IF....you are a real stickler for "period correctness".....I suppose you would want NOS tubes?
That said....I too have bought and used NOS tubes..... on the mistaken belief that all current production tubes were "crap!"

I was wrong.

I've been amazed how GOOD the current production Tung Sol tubes are!?
I would still buy NOS tubes....but only if it's a steal-of-a-deal.

Steve

Consider that NOS tubes and Used Old Stock tubes were designed and built better in those past days when tube technology was at it's highest and most popular.

I think it's safe to say, in many cases a tested used old stock tube will outlast and out perform many of it's modern day counterparts. However new tubes are getting better...... while many sound great in the beginning, I think that they don't retain their level of performance for as long a period.

It's pretty hard to beat a used or new old RCA power or preamp tube for tone. I've spent hours auditioning modern and old stock tubes of many makes in my little vintage tube amps..... and although I was skeptical when I first started, I'm a believer now.

I was like you..... I balked at paying higher prices for some NOS tubes at first, but a local amp tech (Shane Manning at Tube Sonic Audio in Sacramento) convinced me to bring my amps down to the shop and spend 2-3 hours subbing-in tubes in my SF Princeton Reverb, SF Champ, 46 Princeton Woodie and 48 Gibson BR9.

I tried a boatload of different types and was amazed at the significant tonal differences I came up with. Once I settled on the tube models that gave the tone I was looking for, I could choose between New or Used old stock because there's an obvious price difference. Actually some Used Old Stock stuff is about the same price as New Modern stuff. I would get a tested UOS tube from Shane ANYDAY over a new one. He tests and rates everything on some of the new Vacuum Tube Valley Characterizers, so I know I'm getting a decent tube. I think he does internet orders so Google him....

I've been experimenting a lot these days and have applied a lot of this stuff with friends' modern amps too. My bandmate plays a modern Fender Blues Junior and after an hour of tube subbing, we settled on subbing a NOS RCA 12AY7 instead of the crappy Fender brand 12AX7 that was stock. Wow, that sweetened up his tone incredibly. We also tried some Sylvania, Westinghouse, JAN Phillips and RCA 12AT7's and 12AX7's, but really, the 12AY7 was the beauty.....

Ok.... one last comment.... I recently acquired three 5881 tubes from Shane at Tube Sonic for another substitution experiment. These 6L6WGB variants were:
a new modern issue Tung Sol (now made in Russia), a used old stock real Tung Sol, and a used old stock JAN Phillips.

Although the modern issue Tung Sol was so close to the used Tung Sol, I had to give the nod to the used JAN Phillips not because of clean, but because of the smoother overdriven tone. So I gotta say that in some cases, the new modern reissues are sounding great.

Everytime I purchase NOS tubes from Antique Electronic Supply, about a fourth of them "crap out" after just a few hours. I have to believe that a bottle's vacuum leaks after 20 or 30 years on the shelf. And, if there is a tonal difference, it's probably because the tube is so old it is dying right there in your amp...giving a unique sound that can only be gotten with a dying tube. JMO. YMMV.

i've used NOS for nine years and will continue to pay extra for them as long as i can afford it. for my money, they sound, perform and last better than current production tubes -- although i'll use those in a pinch.

if tubes were like guitar strings and you had to change 'em every week or month, i'd balk. but tubes, to me, are a longer-term investment, years in a lot of cases. of course your source is all-important -- some dealers test 'em to see if they light up, others subject them to rigorous screening. i've always gotten mine from KCA NOS ... no problems from the tubes or advice i've gotten from Mike K. (no affiliation, just a satisfied repeat customer.)

Today's current production tubes are the NOS tubes of tomorrow! :mrgreen:

VERY good point about tested USED old stock tubes.
The main sticking point is.....you have to TRUST that person you are buying UOS from.....know his ass from a hole in the ground?
I've gotten great deals on UOS tubes in the past (i.e. tested UOS at 100%.....matched pair of GE 6V6GT.....$24 including shipping).
I've gotten NOS from Mike at KCA tubes also (no affiliation, just another satisfied repeat customer).
Mike is VERY knowledgeable.....and he sells the Tung Sol RI.....for a reason!

Steve

Yeah I got one of those Phillips 6L6WGBs from KCA. Man, great sound. And I have real Tung Sol 5881s in my other amp. What a sweet tone there.

I wonder if the old tubes used processes that are no longer legal due to toxicity.

Anybody try the GTs made on old USA tooling? I wonder how good they are.

i used to run NOS phillips el84s in my DrZ till they got way too spendy. especially in an amp known to burn through tubes. I went to JJs and they were nice but no match for the Phillips. the phillips are a lot smoother

I then tried NOS preamp tubes to try to tweak things aonically back in the direction they where with the phillips and ended up with NOS RCA ax7s that made up for the phillips with a much longer life expecancy. I never put the phillips back in yet. i'm afraid the results would have me spending too much on power tubes. ignorance is bliss

Today's current production tubes are the NOS tubes of tomorrow! :mrgreen:

that's the problem ... when the "golden age" tubes are gone, there won't be any more! like everyone else, i'm rooting for current-production tube quality to continue improving, but they still got a ways to go. JMO! YMMV!

What a blessing it is to have tin ears -- my amps sound just as lovely (to me) with JJ's as they do with the old American stuff I have in my collection. I personally think that with a good circuit, you're most of the way there. :cool:

- Scott

Personally, in my own particular amps with their particular speakers, I have had the best luck with RCA tubes. Both the preamp and power tubes have been great.

These days, most of my amps are using 6V6's, and the RCA 6V6GT's are the best to my ear. I even tried some spendy NOS Brimars 6V6GT's awhile back... when I had just got my 69 Princeton Reverb recapped and serviced. I found that they didn't seem to have the great bottom end response that my used RCA's did. After some other "taste tests" while on the bench at Tube Sonic Audio http://www.tubesonicamps.com

I found a matched set of NOS Sylvania's that sounded close to my RCA's. I bought those for spares.

I have found that a current production JJ 12AX7 is a cool powerful tube for the Phase Inverter position, however!

that's the problem ... when the "golden age" tubes are gone, there won't be any more! like everyone else, i'm rooting for current-production tube quality to continue improving, but they still got a ways to go. JMO! YMMV!

That really it, isn't it?

When they're gone, they're gone. For now, I'd rather use production tubes and try to tweak the best tones that I can by using them. There are some nice current production tubes available. IMO, the tung-sol's are nice and I like the sovteks LPS for use in the phase inverter. The sovtek 5751 can sound nice too in certain situations. On the other hand, I was less than impressed with the new mullards and found the JJ's to be a little on the grainy side. I haven't even begun looking at different power tubes yet. :mrgreen:

What are good tubes for a Blues Jr. ?

+++ on RCA Tubes. Yes, there ia a huge difference in every way unfortunately.

What are good tubes for a Blues Jr. ? - JJs I wouldn't bother with NOS or UOS in those amps. The vintage tubes would be worth more than the amp.

I think the NOS tubes do sound better...no doubt. I just can't afford them. I saw recently an online retailer selling matched pairs of NOS RCA blackplate 6L6s for $400 - $500. They sound killer but my properly biased set of matched JJs at $25 sound pretty good too. Plus, I can afford 20 sets for the cost of one set of "holy grail" tubes. If I burn up one set every 6 months, that's still 10 years worth of tubes.

What are good tubes for a Blues Jr. ?

I'm currently running NOS RCA 12Y7's in V1 and V3, and a matched pair of JJ EL84's. As the others here have noted, the RCA's are great.

I use nos on all my amps except my bogner ecstacy----that amp is made for newer style tubes

I’ve heard the tests (there were a few good A/B’s online a couple of years ago). I’ve also heard comparisons first hand. I’ll probably get flamed for this but I have to say, the difference between a good tube and a great tube (regardless of pedigree) is a lot less than the tonal impact of changing picks, strings, pickups, pedals and almost any other part of the signal chain.

Don’t get me wrong. There is a difference in a good tube and a great NOS tube but, very few people could tell the difference without a controlled A/B test and even then, they would probably be guessing.

If the listener can’t tell the difference and experienced players have a hard time hearing the difference….. well, it’s almost as crazy as players who swear they can tell the difference in battery brands in their pedals – inside joke to EJ fans. It is possible to over think (and over spend) the signal chain.

I promise you, the girl spilling her drink while dancing to our groove at 1AM on a Friday night can’t tell the difference between a Mullard and a EH in my Deluxe Reverb. Neither can her guitar playing boyfriend.

Ih their heyday, US/Brit/German/etc. manufactured tubes were built to tighter specs than today's tubes. Tubes that pass and get sold today would have been rejected as out of spec back then. So they were built better, in cleaner facilities and had better chemistry and metallurgy. end result is longer life, better sound.

I have a blackface Pro Reverb. I re-tubed that thing once, diagnostically, and I was cringing, thinking I was going to lose the tone I loved.

Interesting experiment, because in that particular amp -- tubes just didn't matter. Funky old tubes (including an Amperex and I don't know what all); brand new cheap Chinese tubes; NO DIFFERENCE. Sounded great, no matter what.

In my home, I have brand new amps with brand new tubes. Also old amps that have the tubes they came with (not NOS, technically, but pretty close). Also some NOS tubes that are only NOS because I bought them years ago, and they still sit in the drawer (bought as spares for "emergencies" that didn't occur...).

99% of the time, I'm playing the brand new amps, because they sound the best to me, and they get the tones I want to get. That's why I bought them.

I'm one of those guys who played the "vintage" stuff when it was new. My friends and I didn't like most of it back in the day, and it's the same stuff it ever was.

YMMV...

IMO With power tubes you can hear a very signifigant difference. With the pre-amp tubes after v1 (to my ears) its harder to hear the difference. Sometimes its just a light shading of your tone but alot of the time its more how smooth or how much headroom the amp has that changes.

Personally, I wouldn't cry if an amp I bought had JJ's in it or TungSol RI's but my Encore has JAN Phillips 6l6's, JAN GE 12ax7 in v1, GE grey long plate in V2 and a couple other mix and match ones and it seems to be a good working combo.

Course every few weeks I get bored and try something new LOL

the folks who designed these classic tubes, the ones who knew the
critical details about construction and the specific formula for the
metals, for example.. well, those people are all dead & buried and
few of 'em got the opportunity to pass along their knowledge to the
next generation because most "tube" folks were shoved aside when
transistors came into the market..

except in the former Soviet Union, where they used tube technology
long after the west had dumped it as being an anachronism.

the Russians and the Chinese have made GREAT strides in the overall
quality of their production as compared to back in the day, when it
was a 50/50 chance one's Chinese tube would blow up the minute
it was installed!

to over-simplify the modern production vs NOS argument:

NOS tubes - sound great while functioning for years and years and years

modern tubes - sound great for a year or two then need replacement
due to loss of gain/tone or going microphonic/too noisy

obviously, there are going to be exceptions to the rule on both sides.

I think anybody should try for NOS tubes but never spend more than
one can justify for 'em - at today's NOS prices there's nothing wrong
with modern production and a place such as Eurotubes can provide
a great set of JJs for any amp!

All I require in a vacuum tube is reasonalbly low noise and no microphonic noise and no feedback, current production tubes meet that criteria. NOS and UOS tubes are fun but generally it's cork sniffing.

I can not justify spending $300 to $600 on NOS. Sorry, but I can't I can use that money other things I could use it for so I will stick the current tubes out there.

I bought this Peavey ValveKing that used to be a floor demo. Well, one of the 12AX7's started to make a crackling noise a week or so after I got it.

This "Kid" I know is into vintage amps and tubes, so I asked him if I could borrow a tube. He gave me a NOS tube. I don't remember the brand, but I put it in, and I'll be darned that even I could hear an improvement in tone, even with swapping just one tube.

I asked him if I could buy two more from him... He never answered me...

$300 to $600

good lord, who are you buying from and what are you buying? no offense, just slightly flabbergasted ... you can still find good options in NOS without going all RCA black-plate.

I bought three NOS United 12AT7's for my '94 Twin this past fall. Made in India in the mid-80s. One of them blew in the PI, so I bought up a bunch of JAN Phillips 12AT7s to replace them all. The JAN's worked fine in two spots, but the reverb return sounded far better and more articulate with the Indian tube left in there.

Now that's certainly a newer amp, and those are newer NOS tubes, but it goes to show you that a "crappier" tube can actually sound better in certain positions in some amps.

Besides, for me it's questionable logic to put $500-1000 worth of tubes into an amp that I paid $400 for, and you can find a lot of old SF Twins for $400-800. Kind of like putting $1000 worth of parts and maintenance into an old car that's only worth about a hundred bucks.

Too good a deal to pass up?
Canadian e-bay seller (98.8% feedback rating selling tubes) had 8 RCA 6V6GT tubes for sale.
"All tested very good and in excellent condition".......I hope?

$39.

Steve :shock: :mrgreen:

Virtually all of my amps have NOS preamps tubes and current production power tubes.

I really really like the current production JJ 6V6 and JJ 7591. I think they sound fabulous in my Vibro-Champ and Reverberocket 2 repectively.

Not sure what I'm going to do when it comes time to retube my 6L6 and 6550 amps. So far I've used the gold Fender labled Sovtek's they sound good but not great

well it's definitely NOT an all or none situation!

nobody's saying that everybody HAS to outfit EVERY amp with a fine NOS
set of vintage tubes - but some amps are well-suited for 'em and in other
amps a nice NOS preamp tube in V1 can go a long way, along with a set
of newer production power, preamp, or rectifier tube(s).

keep in mind as well that "NOS" in itself means NOTHING if the supplier
fails to properly screen out weak ones, same thing goes as far as new
production tubes.

Too good a deal to pass up?
Canadian e-bay seller (98.8% feedback rating selling tubes) had 8 RCA 6V6GT tubes for sale.
"All tested very good and in excellent condition".......I hope?

$39.

Steve :shock: :mrgreen:

yeah I saw those as well.

figure if worst-case scenario was that only two of 'em were good
you'd STILL have got a good price. I'll bet all eight of those bad boys
will be good-to-go and you could probably sell off a pair and recoup
your total investment.

good lord, who are you buying from and what are you buying? no offense, just slightly flabbergasted ... you can still find good options in NOS without going all RCA black-plate.


I'm referring to the amount it would re tube a basic amplifier. I spend what Bob at Eurotubes charges.

I like a mix of Nos and current tubes for different applications. With my 6L6 amps I use winged =c='s. 6V6's I like NOS. Preamp tubes same thing some Rca 12ax7's, JJecc803, Tung sol RI 12ax7's. In general I like to experiment with V1 in tweed types and V2 in vibrato channel black face amps. And Nos 12at7's in reverb and PI positions.