Boutique hype

i play a kustom 36 coupe. im not trying to sound cocky or anything but ive played along Dr.Z's and BadCat's and plenty other boutique amps onstage and my little 600$ amp seemed to sound just as good as the MAZ 38's or Hot Cat 30's right next to me. are boutique amps somewhat a hype to anyone else?

no- you, like everyone else, thinks their gear sounds really good. And i'm sure to an extent, it does. But if you lined up a peavey valve king next to a victoria anything... and it will sound obvious which is higher quality.

occam's razor would suggest a few things: 1) There is a difference and you can't hear it 2) The folks who you've played with who have them don't set them up very well or don't play very well and a good amp will not make a good player. 3) Cheap amps are just as good as expensive amps and everyone who buys expensive amps is foolish and not smart enough to know what you know... even though they have made enough money to be able to afford the expensive amps (rich guys are almost always kinda dumb!)

Usually these threads uncover little more than economic and class struggle... and thrift vs. extravagance... and who has disposable income and who doesn't. In the end, if a guy is a good player... the amp will make only moderate impacts on the overall sound.

While some cheap amps sound great, some expensive amps can sound not so great. And if you're lucky enough to find an inexpensive amp that sounds great (and they're out there) there's more to the amp equation than just sound quality. Reliability and quality come to mind. A well built, point to point, handwired tube amp will give me better performance, for a longer period of time, with less maintenance and less operating costs than a less expensive, lower quality built PCB tube amp. IMO, when it comes to amps, you get what you pay for. I'm just sayin...

im saying normal amps to boutique, not junk to boutique (Tred7882) played victoria before still prefer my kustom

I've played my Dr Z Carmen Ghia alongside a lot of other amps. Some boutique and some budget. My amp sounded better than all of them including amps that were a lot more expensive. But that is my opinion any way.

I think endzone has a pretty good point that the build quality and reliability of the hand built "boutique" amps are really leaps and bounds better than the mass produced stuff. I've had some nice Fender tube amps and the Z's are just built a lot better, right down to the cab.

You ought to try playing some amps yourself before concluding they are all just hype. I listen to other guys playing nice gear all the time and still will cringe at the tone they are getting. As far as price goes, the Dr Z stuff is really not any more expensive than a lot of Fender, Marshall, and Vox amps. That Bad Cat probably cost twice as much as that Maz 38 you heard.

I feel like alot of it is the player. Ive seen horrible players with boutique gear and it didnt help them. but when good players have high end gear. it all comes together. but i still think with those amps your buying a name.

If you buy a Two Rock that lists for 10K then yes, you are paying a lot of money for the name.

When I bought my Dr. Z which costs less money and sounds better than the comparable amp offered by Marshall, then no, I wasn't buying the name.

As long as it sounds good to you, it's a great amp :)

I like making my own because I can repair em easier, modern amps are mostly PCB and are more of a pain to repair. Otherwise, a good amp is a good amp to each of us...

I still love Peavey Classics, and sometimes wish I never sold my three (or my three Marshalls)... I had to in order to fund the parts for my first few builds though :)

Some boutique amps are worth the price tag, some not. Some mass manufactured amps are great and worth more than their "budget" price tags.

I think the high end amps are just not for you.

If there's no difference, or if you actually prefer your amp over the high end offerings, you would be foolish to buy a high end amp.

Personally, I haven't heard a mass produced amp that sounds as good as good as a similar boutique offering, so I would be foolish to buy a mass produced offering.

I also haven't heard ANYTHING that does for me what my /13 does.

I don't believe the hype. I believe my ears.

im saying normal amps to boutique, not junk to boutique (Tred7882) played victoria before still prefer my kustom


hey, i'm not implying that ANY peavey is junk, i'm just saying that in many cases its pretty obvious to hear which amp is higher quality. I believe that any player can make an amp sound good (doesn't the boss's guitarist play out of a hot rod deville?), but i do believe that boutique amps are often worth the hype and price. do i have one (better yet, could i afford one)? hell no... thats why i'm building a mission tweed deluxe.

Over the past 30 years, I've played a lot of different amps and guitars, in a lot of different price ranges. My conclusion: you don't always get what you pay for. My other conclusion: people like what they like, and I probably won't like what you like, and vice versa.

I recently went on a major shopping outing with my buddy, who was obsessing over various boutique amps. We played stuff from Carr, Victoria, Dr. Z, I don't know what all. I have to say, the Carr and Victoria amps were strikingly UNexciting. SOME of the Dr. Z amps were interesting.

A lot depends on the player, and the specific guitar, and what you want an amp to do. Some folks want a low-wattage amp that you crank, and it gets all creamy-bluesy-overdriven. Other folks need a lot of clean headroom.

I have several amps, because I want different things at different times.

And again, it all depends. I recently bought a Bigsby Tele, and a big part of the reason was that I played it through a Victoria (some new $3,000 model), and it just sang. Two other Teles through that same amp just kinda laid there...

....... In the end, if a guy is a good player... the amp will make only moderate impacts on the overall sound.

+1, Sometimes certain gear will accent a players abilities, and it's not always boutique. I have played a lot of big name boutiques and some I didn't quite get it as to why they are so popular.

Also, some players put so much crap between their guitar and the amp that the cumulative tone suck really kills their tone....but you know what, only the other guitarist in the crowd can tell the difference most of the time.

Yeah I think folks do just like what they like. I have played just about every boutique and non boutique amp out there and the only amps that have really excited me are Bogners, Divided by 13's and Top hats. That said what has excited me the most are certain vintage Fenders that are actually less expensive than the boutiques.

The second thing thats exciting is that they (the Fenders) are easy to repair and modify and normally appreciate in value. Now none of those things alone excite me if they didn't also sound great to my ears.

But one man's poison is another man's nectar. The Dr. Z's I have played have all been good amps, but none have excited me for the money. One friend I play with just spent his whole bonus check on a Dr.Z and he comes to play two weeks in a row with it, then I haven't seen him play anything but a Blues Jr. Lately - go figure. Nothing wrong with the Blues Jr. at all, I like it. But to think I could have bought 3 Silverface Fenders for the price of that one Dr. Z is unsettling, especially since he ain't playing it much. I do most wholeheartedly agree that you mostly get what you pay for to a point but disagree that you can always hear the difference. Sometimes it's not in the hearing, it's in the serviceability and quality of components that sometimes translate sonically, but the benefits can't always be heard in every instance. But they may be seen by an amp tech, or by your wallet and repair headaches - or maybe not. Usually it makes a difference, but not always.
Expensive doesn't always equal better - just usually. NOw that China builds just about everything under the sun, cheaper seems to be getting better and better, unfortunately. Yes, its unforunate and I'm not going to go into why, just think beyond your ability for ownership briefly and you will see the many ways it will drive American made goods to extinction among other things.

At the risk of throwing fuel on a fire, could someone clarify a term for me? What exactly is "boutique"?

At the risk of throwing fuel on a fire, could someone clarify a term for me? What exactly is "boutique"?

it is a term when spelled correctly that describes a small company that makes amps in small quantities, using premium components and tailoriing their business to a customer who has specific ideas and needs for their sounds that the manufacturer is willing to listen to and service. These amps typically cost more because they are made in first world countries and bear those addtional costs.

When misspelled it is used as a term of derision to attempt to make foolish and wasteful anyone who would entertain owning/buying these types of goods and services. Sometimes it is because the person cannot hear the difference or does not share those tastes... but, more often it is guys who are broke and stuck with gear that they feel bad about... so, since they can't upgrade their lot, they attempt to downgrade someone elses.

Most real fights on these issues have to do with economics and not sound.

...When misspelled it is used as a term of derision to attempt to make foolish and wasteful anyone who would entertain owning/buying these types of goods and services......


I disagree, I am a bow-teek builder myself, and it does not bother me. Some people type with an accent, and some read with an attitude (I have been guilty of this myself).

Boutique is another way to say Cottage Industry, which implies that is built and sold by one individual (usually), in a home shop or garage (I do my assembly and wiring in the living room).

Just because something is boutique does not mean that the highest priced parts were used...a good builder spends time on R & D deciding on what parts to splurge on. Most boutique amps are based on the great sounding vintage ionic circuits and these circuits don't have to be built with the higher degree of consistancy as high gain channel switching amps (this is where pcb construction comes in handy). A good builder has taken the time to seperate snake oil from fact (I fell for some of it in the beginning, but soon learned better by trial and error).

Boutique does not always guarantee a perfect item. I have done repairs on some high dollar very popular amps that were rushed to the consumer and never properly tested before being shipped (the guy is so busy, he just doesn't have the time).

As a consumer, do your research. Buy what you need and what works for you. A good builder will turn down a sale if it is beneficial for that individual and reccomend a more suitable alternative.

A lot of so called bargain amps can benefit from a good speaker and good tubes. I never put down anyones timbre based on what they payed for as long as it sounds good and does the job. Here's an example; I used to have an original Bad Cat Cub and a Blues Jr, the the Cub smoked the BJ, but when I ran the BJ through the Cub cabinet...things were a little more equal.


It is pointless to diss someone for how much they spend on gear, and at the same time it is pointless to diss the fact that some inexpensive gear can sound as good as something that cost much more.


For a skilled guitarist you can never totally predict what will "give up the goods" for him and in some instances a good builder is fortunate enough to hear magic come out of something he has made when it does (one of my customers who falls into this catagory tells me I have the "x" factor, and I reply back to him "no, you've got the touch".

occam's razor would suggest a few things: 1) There is a difference and you can't hear it 2) The folks who you've played with who have them don't set them up very well or don't play very well and a good amp will not make a good player. 3) Cheap amps are just as good as expensive amps and everyone who buys expensive amps is foolish and not smart enough to know what you know... even though they have made enough money to be able to afford the expensive amps (rich guys are almost always kinda dumb!)

Usually these threads uncover little more than economic and class struggle... and thrift vs. extravagance... and who has disposable income and who doesn't. In the end, if a guy is a good player... the amp will make only moderate impacts on the overall sound.

Getbent speaks with golden tongue.

Thanks for the clarification on the definition. Just wondering. Is Rivera considered boutique? I have a Chubster 40 in British Green.

Just buy what you like.

Class struggles? Snob cork sniffing? Maybe sometimes, but definitely not all the time. Let's not get Freudian or Marxist on this... they're just amps.

Play your music - through whatever amp YOUR sound comes from. Don't worry about snobs or the opposite end, disgruntled poor folks (of which I actually am, ignore my new Celestion Blues *a gift*).

I like cheap "garbage" and I like handmade "boutiques." I like cheap beer and I like expensive Scotch - why can't we just like both?

Thanks for the clarification on the definition. Just wondering. Is Rivera considered boutique? I have a Chubster 40 in British Green.

It depends on how technical you want to get. Rivera's are great amps, but I would classify them as well-built mass produced.

I guess the criteria I would use is (IMHO): Does the owner of the company spend most of his time building amps, or does he have people or machines for that.

Getbent speaks with golden tongue.

It came across as a little jaded IMHO, but we all have a right to our own opinions and should be open to both sides.

jaded? I have no dog in the boutique/large production amp continuous struggle. I own both and find value in both. I think as you watch this discussion (and the many that we've had in the past) I am with JohnnyCrash (as usual) that they are just amps... but, it has been my experience, that guys bring other issues to this one and dress them up as amps.

in my initial post, I was attempting to get the OP to clarify. Is he happy because his amp sounds good? or is it schadenfreude that other guys have spent more than he has and he sounds better? One inference that could be made from his initial post is that he thinks boutique amps are hype... But, before making that inference, I responded with what I've learned by reading these discussions... and provided some possible answers to his stated question.

Some guys can hear differences, some can't.
Some guys are not good at getting a good sound... I have a friend who always asks me to 'set him up' when he plays with us.
some inexpensive amps sound great.

some guys hear what they want to hear.

jaded? I have no dog in the boutique/large production amp continuous struggle. I own both and find value in both. I think as you watch this discussion (and the many that we've had in the past) I am with JohnnyCrash (as usual) that they are just amps... but, it has been my experience, that guys bring other issues to this one and dress them up as amps.

in my initial post, I was attempting to get the OP to clarify. Is he happy because his amp sounds good? or is it schadenfreude that other guys have spent more than he has and he sounds better? One inference that could be made from his initial post is that he thinks boutique amps are hype... But, before making that inference, I responded with what I've learned by reading these discussions... and provided some possible answers to his stated question.

Some guys can hear differences, some can't.
Some guys are not good at getting a good sound... I have a friend who always asks me to 'set him up' when he plays with us.
some inexpensive amps sound great.

some guys hear what they want to hear.

That was how I interpreted that reply (#16).

Other than that, I agree with you totally..its all good. (IF you read my post, #17, you'll see that were on the same page) http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i115/teleamp/beer.gif

Also, my reply # 13 was agreeing and supporting your reply #12.

im saying normal amps to boutique, not junk to boutique (Tred7882) played victoria before still prefer my kustom

The Victoria was probably a tweed style amp, though they do make some others, the Kustom is something different. You prefer what the Kustom sounds like. That's totally cool, but besides comparing two amps of different cost and manufacturing methods, you are also playing two amps of different design, that do different things. It doesn't surprise me at all that you and probably a lot of other people prefer the Kustom, and would even if they cost the same.

The Fender tweed reissue amps, the 57 low power twin and the 57 tweed deluxe, don't cost much less than the equivalent Victorias.

My "boutique" amp is an Allen Accomplice. It's based on a Deluxe Reverb, but it has some features that the DRRI doesn't. I won't detail them here, but to me the Accomplice is a much more useful amp, and it cost about $400 or $500 more than a DRRI. Someone might prefer the DRRI, I prefer the Accomplice, the price difference is worth it to me, and really it's the only amp I need, though I do play a Champ a lot at home. To me that extra money represents real value. This isn't a knock on the DRRI though.

I built my 5E3 using good quality parts for about $400 but the Victoria version is $2000. Are they that much better than mine or are they paying employees $100 an hour? And 16 hours is taking your time. I would think it's part hype and part reputation washed down with a healthy dose of cork sniffing. But it would have to be a vintage nos cork. :smile:

Do I like my DRRI? I love it. But I have a lot of fun when I plug my modded Champ RI in a 1x12" speaker.
If I had some boutique amp it probably give me a great sound too but I'm happy with what I have.
"It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got."

Originally Posted by getbent
occam's razor would suggest a few things: 1) There is a difference and you can't hear it 2) The folks who you've played with who have them don't set them up very well or don't play very well and a good amp will not make a good player. 3) Cheap amps are just as good as expensive amps and everyone who buys expensive amps is foolish and not smart enough to know what you know... even though they have made enough money to be able to afford the expensive amps (rich guys are almost always kinda dumb!)

Usually these threads uncover little more than economic and class struggle... and thrift vs. extravagance... and who has disposable income and who doesn't. In the end, if a guy is a good player... the amp will make only moderate impacts on the overall sound.

Getbent speaks with golden tongue.

Agreed. That is one hell of a post and sums up the situation very succinctly.

boutique amps are for working musicians and rich guys who like to show off gear. more power to you if you can afford to spend $1k or more on an amp, but what kills me is when I see that $70 distortion pedal on the front end!

I notice that a few guys here said they've compared their boutique amps to other amps. That's a whole hobby in itself. Personally I've always found it hard to judge an amp in one sitting, especially in an isolated environment without a band.

The jump from crappy under powered amp to good gigging amp is a big one, most of us made that giant leap in our youth, I did. The jump from good amp to boutique amp is a small hop comparitively, and a boutique amp ain't gonna make me a better player.

if your $600 amp sounds better to you, go with it.I salute you.

I find the point of the thread a bit stale no offense, we all know there are exceptions to every rule like boteek=good massproduced=bad and like Jonny I have much love for the Peavey classics.
Live and let live, I may diss some of these boteek amps as bad value for money, but value is different depending who you speak to and what their finances look like.

edit:
plus, with any pursuit be it golf, motorcycles, guitars etc you always pay double for that "10% more" and that is just the way it is. Many can justify the need to do that.
I am happy though that you are enjoying your amp, its a nice feeling to like your gear.

see i agree with many of you. i miss stated earlir. Peavey makes okay stuff but i think Valve Kings not so great. Just to clarify

There are no absolutes in a subjective world. Too many variables that cannot be measured in an "objective" manner. This, I believe, is what getbent's observations are illustrating.

And as the wise sage JohnnyCrash said, it's what sounds good to you that matters, boutique or otherwise.

There are no absolutes in a subjective world. Too many variables that cannot be measured in an "objective" manner. This, I believe, is what getbent's observations are illustrating.

And as the wise sage JohnnyCrash said, it's what sounds good to you that matters, boutique or otherwise.

Absolutely! :mrgreen:

Cheers, Tim

Boutique hype? I don't go for it.

I like the regular old run-of-the-mill mass-produced hype.

ANY amplifier consists of a circuit design, a layout design, and a collection of parts from the imput jack through to the output transformer, and then to a speaker or speakers in a speaker cab.

The design can be bone simple or extremely complex. The parts can be cheaply mass-produced or painstakingly handmade. The acoustic properties of the speakers and cabinet designs can greatly affect the resulting tone.

MOST amplifiers will produce usable sounds (because, let's face it, few people will buy an amp that won't!). But remember, there are as many DIFFERENT usable or pleasing tones as there are guitar players! I once owned a 70s 50-watt Marshall JMP head that I was absolutely unable to make good music with, and so I sold it to a friend who made it sit up and bark in a most pleasing manner. One man's meat, etc...

If the original poster's Kustom amp pleases him, that's absolutely wonderful. That doesn't make any other amp better or worse for any other guitarist, though...

A hand-made amp can be a wonderful thing (I've played some that were just plain amazing), a factory-made amp can be a wonderful thing (see above), vintage gear can be awesome, new stuff can just kill, and your favorite amp may sound utterly crapulous when I play through it.

Ain't it a wonderful world?

Cheers, Tim

I almost bought a kustom 72 those are sweet...The way I see it one can buy a Gomez amp that will probably last 40 years or one can buy a 40 year old amp that may last another 40...Kind of like buyng a brand new blackface amp except there's less gamble as to if your getting a great sounding amp or a lemon...I sold my 68 showman and kept my 65RI Twin which some may say is blasphemy but I liked the twin better even though its PCB.

All things in their place.....and a place for everything.

The best amp for the job is the one that's going to give you the sound you want. IMO, there are NO bad amps.....(well maybe a few :lol: ) but more appropriately, I like to think of them as being colors a painter might use. Some colors you may use more than others, but each one is usefull depending on the picture that you want to paint.

...I had my Fender's,Orange's,Hiwatt's,but then I heard a Matchless DC-30...ding!!!...sold the other's (this was about '93),bought the thing,Yummm!!!...around '97 I heard a Budda Twinmaster 10 (single 12",18 watts),bought the thing,and it became my #1...been using a Victoria Regal (single ended design,with a 15" speaker),and it's got a brilliant,and full sound(I've combined the Victoria with the Budda,using the "slave out" from the Budda,and MAAAN!!!,that has a voice with my Tele's)...now mind you,these amps ain't cheap,and you wonder if they'll hold their value like an old Fender,Hiwatt,Orange,Marshall,Valco,Magnatone,etc. ,but we'll see...some of the less expensive amps sound good as well,with the benefit of being easily replaceable...isn't it really a matter of taste???...ain't no self esteem issue,affordability vs. Bo-teeque,issit???...whatever floats 'yer boat...it's funny though,will ANY of the re-issue BF Fender's give one the same feeling as playing through an original BF,once you've played through one???(the re-issues will never hold their value)...first amp I ever had was a brown Vibroverb 2x10,'ya think I wish I still had that???...but I digress...you pay a premium for a product that's built to last,and most boutiques ARE built that way (I said MOST,but not all),and for some they come closest to playing through an old world,back-in-the-day style of construction,without worrying about bringing out one's valuable originals...

Many boutique amps are copies of yesteryears normal production amps. So a normal amp certainly can sound as good as a boutique one.

there are as many DIFFERENT usable or pleasing tones as there are guitar players! ...One man's meat, etc...

That's really what it comes down to. There are certain qualities about the sound that I look for in an amp, and they're not the same qualities as a lot of other players seem to like. Many coveted vintage Fender amps I've tried didnt get me the sound I like, but I like the sound of the Hot Rod series a lot.

The boutique amps I've seen seem to by more oriented towards overdriven sounds, so they probably woudnt be my thing...but if the only way I could get a sound I loved was by paying a lot for an amp, I'd have no problem saving up my money and buying it.

In my opinion, the amp is more important than the guitar in getting the right sound. I've never played any kind of electric guitar that I couldnt get a good sound out of when it's plugged into an amp I like.

I bought my Z Rx unheard on a suggestion from Fatsound Guitar. I really didn't like it when it arrived. Thin, bright, no sustain. I kinda didn't like it for the first couple of years because the articulation and dynamics were something that revealed what a crappy player i was but on a good night it sounded great so i kept it. A decade later my playing is way better and my style somewhat molded by my Z. Thanks to the Z I am able to realize/utilize the nuance of the higher dollar amps but at the same time i no longer care what i play through. Give me a cord and we'll make it work.

the point; somethimes you have to work to find the value in the boutique amps and they may ultimately benifit your playing whereas with the more one dimensional amps you get what you get and there ain't no more.

The Rx is a tone monster i'll never part with. A Vicky Regal is on the short list and if i hit the lotto one of the /13 KT88 based amps is a must have...the /13 amps are the most fun critters i've ever played with. no hype there.

I feel like alot of it is the player. Ive seen horrible players with boutique gear and it didnt help them. but when good players have high end gear. it all comes together. but i still think with those amps your buying a name.

I"ve been guilty of buying soley on the name in the past. Mainly Fender. Buying alot of Fender amps produced lots of disappointment in recent years. Not like some of the older amps I owned in he early 80s.
A couple years ago I decided to throw away buying based on name. Not being familiar with any boutique names such as Victoria or Dr Z I had no idea what they were. After posting on a couple of these forums describing what I wanted suggestions were made on several amps including Mesa Boogie (which I did end up buying a Mesa boogie but ended up selling) Victoria, Dr Z, Vox etc. After trying several amps at gigs the Dr Z was the definite amp for me. I didn't feel I was buying a name at the time as I had never heard of them. I didn't know that Brad or Joe or Steve used these amps till after I bought one. I went strictly by my ears. These amps are twice what the mass produced ones are (Fender, Marshall, etc). but the quality of these amps, I feel are also twice the cheaper mass produced ones. As well how many of those big companies like Fender and Marshall can you call up and have the guy that built them on the phone talking to you.
I've called there and I've emailed when I have wanted to know something and I get an answer pronto. You can tell these guys care about their product alot. The big companies care only about the bottom line. And to me, that is well worth the price I paid.
Chances are if you couldn't tell the difference between your $600 amp and the more expensive one that you probably didn't know what you were listening for. It took me about 2 years of playing (14 years full time) to find an amp that satisfies me this much night after night. I'm not saying they are for everyone but then I couldn't give a hoot about everyone. When it comes to my sound I only care what I like. I'm the one that has to play it.

i guess i just don't get why people buy boutique clones when the real thing is available for the same price more often than not.

i guess i just don't get why people buy boutique clones when the real thing is available for the same price more often than not.

provide some examples.

i guess i just don't get why people buy boutique clones when the real thing is available for the same price more often than not.

An amplifier doesn't know what brand it is. It's a circuit made out of commonly available components, you run a tiny signal into it and it makes it into a very strong signal coming out the other end, into a speaker.

They're ALL the real thing!

Cheers, Tim

"I heard a Matchless DC-30...ding!!!...sold the other's (this was about '93),bought the thing,Yummm!!!...around '97 I heard a Budda Twinmaster 10 (single 12",18 watts),bought the thing,and it became my #1...been using a Victoria Regal "

So you've had 3 boutique amps in 15 years, which to me indicates that each time you bought a new amp you were looking for a slightly different flavor of the same thing? Or are they all completely different?
And do you use pedals for gain?

I'll give you this:

Mass produced amps do usually skimp on some parts. The actual circuit may be the same as a clone or a boutique or a hand wired, but there's more than just the circuit. Crappy wired to PCB pots are a pain to replace. Wired to PCB jacks eventually wear away from their PCB connections (you physically plug in and out, move around on stage with cables, etc).

Sure the circuit is the same - but parts (often hardware) are not the same. Even that doesn't matter, us guitar players often buy and sell gear like it's wll street stock - so longevity is rarely an issue for most of us... our taste/opinions/whims change like the wind :)

In any case, don't turn your nose up at ANY amp. Mass produced or handwired - try them and buy what you like. Life is too short to make shortsided judgments in either direction. Buy, play, enjoy as many amps as you can - ignore everything... except your own ears.

Have fun and play guitar - who cares about the price, brand, or otherwise. Relax and have fun :)

i guess i just don't get why people buy boutique clones when the real thing is available for the same price more often than not.

Well, sometimes the real thing may not actually be available. A lot of those clone amps are recreations of vintage amps. Those amps may be currently produced as a reissue but they are not built the same as the originals (they may use PCB, different wiring, etc). If you want the amp as it was originally built you either go vintage or get a clone, both of which can be expensive.

I like the Dr. Z stuff because its NOT a clone. They are original amps with their own distinct sound. I have owned a couple different Z's and they all have this certain characteristic in their tone that makes them sound like a Z and not a Vox, Fender, Marshall, etc.

...these amps are used for different applications...when I bought the DC-30,I was playing on much larger stages,and the amp sounded beautiful with any instrument plugged straight in,or using pedals...it's a workhorse in the studio too!!!...I bought it when the company was still in North Hollywood...I visited the factory,and was instantly overwhelmed by the energy of the individuals that worked there,plus,I was able to talk directly to Mark Sampson,whom I still talk to,and respect...the Budda works,and has worked in many situations that required less power,and again,works perfectly going straight in,or with pedals,plus Scott and Jeff are very helpful when I call,or e-mail...I love the sound of EL-84's,and 12" speakers with my guitars...for a long time Mark Baier was trying to interest me in one of his well made amps,and he got me when he made a tweed Tremolux style amp with a 15",and later he allowed me to use a Victoria Regal (again with a 15"),and I use it with either a single 6L6 or 6V6,depending on the amount of "give",or "saturation" I want from the amp when I plug directly in,or with pedals...I like different sounds,and along with these amps I also have a collection of smaller single 8",or single 10" Valco's,Fender's,Magnatone's,Danelectro's,Gibson's ,as well as a newer Vox Dr-15,which is a very cool amp with an 8"...these days,if I choose one amp to bring to a gig,it's either the Budda,or the Regal,or,as I said earlier,both together...the combination of the 12" with EL-84's and a 15" with a 6L6,plus the reverb and tremelo from the Victoria at a low volume(yes low volume,as I try to balance the amps to just the point of saturation,and then I use my pick pressure and hands to make the sounds),then judicious use of pedals,with mic placement on the amps,or not,and I'm good to go...I love the Regal with my Strat,as well as my Teles...the Budda changed my life,as did the DC-30 when I got it (the Matchless REALLY challenged me to clean up some things,and when I experimented with the gain structure,it was a revelation)...for a long time I used different Fender's (a Vibrolux Reverb,which I still have,and a brown Concert,and a Super Reverb,which I sold when I saw everyone with one,and I decided to make a change)...my hands and ears have determined the way I want to play and sound like,and I like the colors that different amps provide...for a long time,it's been the Budda though,and really,if push came to shove,that's the amp that leaves the house...

i guess i just don't get why people buy boutique clones when the real thing is available for the same price more often than not.


I wanted a vintage amp but in the end I bought a Ceriatone Vibro Champ. Vintage circuit, new components, no maintenance headaches, $346.00 shipped.

.. :cool:

I wanted a vintage amp but in the end I bought a Ceriatone Vibro Champ. Vintage circuit, new components, no maintenance headaches, $346.00 shipped.

.. :cool:

you may be right after all. my 66 blackface vibro champ that "looks" brand new is going back to the shop today for a new cap can. i guess i was just referring to all the blackface era fender clones that cost about the same as silverface counterparts.

i'm just a sucker for vintage mojo i guess. perhaps that's just it though, i may be a sucker (who likes to pay maintenance fees:confused: )

Sometimes the boutique amp, in the case of some Carrs and Riveras combines the sounds of two iconic amps, like BF Fender and Marshall Plexi for instance, and would cost less and be easier to manage than one of each. Sometimes, the amp being made today by the original maker is a pale reflection for one reason or another.

Mass produced modern manufacture amps with MDF cabinets, surface-mount wave soldered components and ribbon connectors have a higher degree of designed-in obsolescence. They are designed to sell at a moderate price, provide reasonable performance and reasonable life.

They are more likely to end up as landfill eventually, as like a modern car or PC, repair may simply be uneconomic in comparsion to going out and simply pulling another one out of a box. Increasingly Fender is doing this for low-end warranty work, and so are other makers.

The boutique amp, if a replica of a classic, or a modern take like a Bad Cat or similar, will likely remain worthy of repair long into the future. A lot of Mark Sampson's early Matchless amps were extremely expensive, and now they are worth even more, because he isn't making them anymore.

And it's pointless saying 'boutique' amps are overpriced or someone's being paid $100 an hour to make them, because the cost to run a business while making a commodity is far higher than screwing together amps in your study for personal use. More cottage amp makers seem to be eating beans from a can than caviar. If you want to make a small fortune making amps, start off with a large one.

golfnut-
I experienced that early on with the Fenders I bought. Then I started trying Older Fenders from 1979 on back with totally different results. Now I'm a Silverface Fender nutcase. AT least until their price gets out of control.
I think they are the best value on the American market today. As stated earlier, these older Fenders are really what some of the Boutique guys are trying to emulate anyway.

SO I guess it depends on which Fenders you were playing with golfnut.

I just spent $20 on an old mono PA tube amp.
So does that make my $99 EV Jr. head......a buttocks/boutique amp?

Steve

Many boutique amps are copies of yesteryears normal production amps. So a normal amp certainly can sound as good as a boutique one.

Bingo!!!!! Spot on my friend.

And also, at least for me, I can plug into just about any amp and I will sound like myself. I've owned a bunch and they are all just slightly different ways of interpreting what's coming off of my fingers.

I went through 40+ amps in about a 3 1/2 year span.... All were mass produced amps ranging from (several models from all); Line 6, Mesa Boogie, Peavey, Fender, Rivera and Vox just to name a few.. then I got my first Botique amp, a Dr. Z. I have had that amp now for a good 2 years and still feel like I'm in the honey moon stage with it. Everything about it is just "more" and the quality is the best I've ever seen. Plus, usually the tech support is sooooo much better with a botique amp builder. I had an issue with my Z a while back and posted a question on a different forum..... and Dr. Z personally contacted me and worked with me until I got it back up to 100%. Now that's customer service!!!

I will say that build quality wise (cabinets) Mesa Boogie is right up there with any Botique amp builder, and maybe better than some.... Plus Randall Smith still runs his company like a botique builder does, if you have a problem one of the techs takes care of it.... and they are very knowledgable.

But there are some VERY good offereing out there that aren't mass produced as well..... So don't knock 'em until you try 'em. Let your ears be the judge, not the higher price tag or the "fad amp" of the year persuade you.

In the end, weither you play through a $200 Line 6 amp or a $2500 Botique amp, you're still going to sound like you.

Mass produced modern manufacture amps with MDF cabinets, surface-mount wave soldered components and ribbon connectors have a higher degree of designed-in obsolescence. They are designed to sell at a moderate price, provide reasonable performance and reasonable life.

They are more likely to end up as landfill eventually, as like a modern car or PC, repair may simply be uneconomic in comparsion to going out and simply pulling another one out of a box. Increasingly Fender is doing this for low-end warranty work, and so are other makers.



This is where most of modern American fabrication is. It is the state of the world economy.

Most mass-manufactured amps built today are made to live just beyond their warranties.



And it's pointless saying 'boutique' amps are overpriced or someone's being paid $100 an hour to make them, because the cost to run a business while making a commodity is far higher than screwing together amps in your study for personal use. More cottage amp makers seem to be eating beans from a can than caviar. If you want to make a small fortune making amps, start off with a large one.



Just ask some of the current boutique builders... most are not able to pay their bills on time.

The few boutique builders I speak to today do it for a few reasons - chief among them: love of music. That's plenty good for me to invest in em.

They may cost working musicians a lot of dough, but that doesn't mean they're making these boutique builders golden mansions.

Buy an amp for specific reasons - if longevity is one of them, then buy vintage HANDWIRED pieces or boutiques. Otherwise, most guitar players are ships passing in the night - a new amp will be on the floor in a year and they'll (we'll) be there.

The classic are classics for a reason - some boutiques (or clones) will be too.

Otherwise, get the flavor of the month... then invest in pedal boards, then change you mind on going with no effects, then swap pickups, then change favorite speakers, then change pickups again, then... in 15 years you will have been the consumer handbook's best agent - and 2 generations of kids will have changed the face of music in the meantime.

GET WHAT YOU LIKE AND MAKE MUSIC. Who cares if it's boutique or mass made. Enjoy all there is in amps and guitars... life is short.

I was responding to this:

i guess i just don't get why people buy boutique clones when the real thing is available for the same price more often than not.

...when I wrote this:

An amplifier doesn't know what brand it is. It's a circuit made out of commonly available components, you run a tiny signal into it and it makes it into a very strong signal coming out the other end, into a speaker.

They're ALL the real thing!

Cheers, Tim

My response may have seemed to imply that I think ALL amps are created equal, but my intent was to say that any handmade, handwired amp is as much "the real thing" as one just like it, no matter what name badge is on the grill cloth. Guess I could have been clearer!

I prefer a good handwired tube amp, myself, owning a 1969 Princeton Reverb and a mid-70s Traynor YGM-3 Guitar Mate. I'd note that there are still a lot of amps made back in the 60s and 70s out there for reasonable prices, that, with even just a little TLC are every bit as functional as the day they were built. I'd also note that there are quite a few boutique amps that are priced considerably less than a new Fender was in, say, 1965, once you account for inflation. New gear wasn't cheap back in the glory years!

Heck, used gear wasn't, either. In 1978, I had a chance to buy an SF Vibrolux Reverb from a guy for $200. I just ran that price through the trusty CPI Inflation Calculator (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl), and it came to $665 in today's dollars.

Anyway, carry on, just wanted to clarify where I was coming from!

Cheers, Tim

golfnut-
I experienced that early on with the Fenders I bought. Then I started trying Older Fenders from 1979 on back with totally different results. Now I'm a Silverface Fender nutcase. AT least until their price gets out of control.
I think they are the best value on the American market today. As stated earlier, these older Fenders are really what some of the Boutique guys are trying to emulate anyway.

SO I guess it depends on which Fenders you were playing with golfnut.

I am mainly referring to recent Fender amps I've owned and played. I let a few Fender beauties get away from me in the early 80s that I wish I had now.

At the risk of throwing fuel on a fire, could someone clarify a term for me? What exactly is "boutique"?


Never mind that...what the heck is occam's razor???

...I'd also note that there are quite a few boutique amps that are priced considerably less than a new Fender was in, say, 1965, once you account for inflation. New gear wasn't cheap back in the glory years!

Heck, used gear wasn't, either. In 1978, I had a chance to buy an SF Vibrolux Reverb from a guy for $200. I just ran that price through the trusty CPI Inflation Calculator (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl), and it came to $665 in today's dollars.


I think people forget Fender Electric Company was "boutique" based on prices and quality back in the 50's and 60's.

Pick any amp price of your choice from this link (http://www.xprt.net/~benboom/ampprices.htm) and plug it into Tim's calculator to see examples of Fender's "boutique" pricing.

Never mind that...what the heck is occam's razor???


Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".

This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as an heuristic maxim (rule of thumb) that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity, often or especially in scientific theories.

Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".

This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as an heuristic maxim (rule of thumb) that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity, often or especially in scientific theories.

Oh.:oops: Now I feel stupit.:cry:

Here's a slightly different slant on the whole controversy and I hope it's relevant.I don't spend the extra money for boutique amps becuase of the following.

A.)I have a few amps. Some mass produced Fenders,some older Fenders,some Fender clones I built, some other novelty amps I built and some other brand mass produced amps. It's a quantitiy more than quality thing. If I owned 1 or 2 amps I'd probably spring for something considered boutique or high end.

B.) Although guitar playing and buying/modding/buiding gear is my main hobby I'm not a working musician.

C.) A 5% increase in my playing technique/ability would mean much more in terms of overall sound than a 50% increase in amp quality. Point is I can't justify the expense even if I can afford it.

So in summary ,IMHO to each his own. We all have different needs,tastes,styles and most importantly finances. I think gross generalizations don't work well when used in these types of disscussions.

Just my .02 cents.

Gene

In any case, don't turn your nose up at ANY amp. Mass produced or handwired - try them and buy what you like. Life is too short to make shortsided judgments in either direction. Buy, play, enjoy as many amps as you can - ignore everything... except your own ears.

Being unemployed and having about a dozen amps across the entire spectrum from mass produced to meticulously hand built (by me), I really find myself gravitating towards what my ears are telling me...

To compound matters, I've completely gone off the deep end with extension cabinets. I can make a collector's piece sound like a transistor radio, and I can make a Vox Valvetronix sound like amps that cost ten times as much!

Currently, I'm torn between my '71 Vibrolux Reverb, my rebuilt 2204'ish combo, my Fischer-inspired 15 watt freak build, and now my Blackheart Little Giant!

The funny thing is that the Little Giant is receiving A TON of playing time. Go figure. I let my ears be the judge...

Hey - if it floats your boat at whatever price point, that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if you're a cork sniffer, anti-cork sniffer, intellectual, caveperson, if you drool over specs or appearance, or even if your amp of choice just smells better! If you want it and have the bones for it, enjoy, and forget everything else.

Name appeal, perceived value, booteek vs. mass produced snobbery ... all this stuff is completely besides the point when it comes to plugging into different amps. None of it matters, though it is great fun to discuss these things. How it sounds and feels is the thing. Followed closely by how long it might last and how reliable it would be. I have played so many amps lately ... the best ones for me certainly did not conform to price point,company size/mission or even word of mouth on music forums

It's like talking genres in music. Interesting, but not as important as music itself.

i play a kustom 36 coupe. im not trying to sound cocky or anything but ive played along Dr.Z's and BadCat's and plenty other boutique amps onstage and my little 600$ amp seemed to sound just as good as the MAZ 38's or Hot Cat 30's right next to me. are boutique amps somewhat a hype to anyone else?

Define "boutique."

i guess i just don't get why people buy boutique clones when the real thing is available for the same price more often than not.

Last year I built a 5F4 Super clone. So I suppose you could call it "boutique" (though I would not). A '59 Super is about $3-5K, IF you can find one. I have $700 into my amp. Best amp I ever heard. For me anyway.

Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".

This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as an heuristic maxim (rule of thumb) that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity, often or especially in scientific theories.

tiktok is the man. I need a cigarette! beautifully stated!

i had the chance to look inside an old twin reverb lately, when it was being taken apart by an expert for service. i put on my glasses and looked around in the cables and cabs and all the other stuff. everything looked like rock ´n roll to me. you will not find that special vibe coming from a regular amp these days. if you don´t care for that: no problem. but if you like that, you have to find it.......

I've played a Matchless (I think a "Spitfire"), and I thought it sounded great. I just couldn't see myself paying that much money.

On the other hand, there are more than a few musicians (both famous and not so famous) who have the ability (and the money) to buy that "be all, end all" amp. Yet they play Fender tube amps! Go figure!?

I certainly won't criticize anyone for having an expensive amp; if you've got the dough and it's got the sound you're looking for then go for it. But for me, I can always find what I consider a sweet amp for $500 or less. Between my AC15 and 212 Blues Deville, I've got everything I could want for home, studio, jamming, or gigs. I've got volume and just enough breakup with no pedals. With a Tele in front of the AC15 or a Les Paul in front of the Deville, I'd put the tone up against just about anything else. And if it wasn't either of those two, I could find something else for $500 or less. If I was a wealthy man, I'd probably just have a bunch of cool mass production Marshalls, Fenders, Voxes, Gibsons, and Oranges. YMMV.

All I care about is that I like the tone and feel from the amp. If it then costs $20 or $1000 is less important. I had a Mesa Boogie in the 90s that I paid a lot for. Tried to like it but eventually I traded it in for a cheap little combo. Was much happier.

I played through run of the mill massed produced amps for 20 some years. Never was completely happy. Then a few years ago I finally saw the light and started buying some vintage Fender amps. I'm very happy with them but a couple of months ago I made my first venture into the boutique amp world and bought a Reinhardt MI-6. Sorry, but it's hands down the nicest sounding amp I've own in 25 years of playing. My 6G2 Fender Princeton being the runner up. I still have a Classic 30 Peavey and all I hear out of that amp now is problems. Hissing on the gain channel, tube rattle even though I have new tubes AND a tube tamer, and lack luster tone. Sorry but cheaper parts is cheaper parts. I don't have any issues with my Reinhardt. Dead silent and a very nice warm clear tone. I hear the amp, not the amps cons....

So for me it's vintage or boutique.