G#m7b5 over Fm7?

Any theory mavens care to tackle this one?

I'm working through a Jim Campilongo tune, "Steeling the Blues," in an old issue of "Guitar Player," and in one measure there's a G#m7b5 arpeggio over an Fm7 chord.

I know that G#m7b5 can also be E9 or Bm6, but I can't figure out how any of these three chords work over Fm7 -- except that G# is the flatted third of Fm7.

Can anyone explain the logic behind this substitution?

Without knowing the song it's a guess, but the context is the determining factor. But here's what I've learned about chord substitutions: Moving a chord form up a minor third usually yields an altered version of that chord, and you can further alter it if the song's harmony allows. So you have an Fm7 at the first position, let' say F-Eb-Ab-C. Move the chord up a minor third and you have a G#m7. Drop the D# on top to D natural and you have the Gm7b5. Pick each note and see how it relates to the Fm7.
G#(Ab) - minor 3rd
F#(Gb) - flat 9
B (Cb) - flat 5
D - 6
So you have a heavily altered Fm7, minus the actual 7th tone. If the original chord was F7 you might instead call the sub an F13b5b9#9 and really get confusing. Again, context is everything, it's not just plug and play.

I'm sure the real musicologists will have more to say. This is just a line of thinking that helps me understand some unusual arrangements.

My first thought is that these notes elaborate the Fm7 by semitone up and down: F replaced by F#; Ab is common; C replaced by B; Eb replaced by D. But I'm sure Ken will have a better insight.

I'm working through a Jim Campilongo tune, "Steeling the Blues," in an old issue of "Guitar Player," and in one measure there's a G#m7b5 arpeggio over an Fm7 chord.

I know that G#m7b5 can also be E9 or Bm6, but I can't figure out how any of these three chords work over Fm7 -- except that G# is the flatted third of Fm7.

Can anyone explain the logic behind this substitution?

Telehawg--More context would help us/or me at least figure out the possibilities. A few questions:
What key is the song in?

What's the next chord after the G#m7b5 (or G# Dim)?
eg, If the next chord is a C7 or variant then the Dim chord is a garden variety connection between the Im and V7 chords.

What's the chord progression in "Steeling"--at least in that segment (bridge, verse,. chorus?)?

Fun, isn't it?

Ed

The tune's in Bb, and the chords go thus: Bb13 / Bb13 / Bb13 / Fm7 - Bb7 / Eb7 / Edim7 / Bb7 /Dm7 - Dm7 /Cm7 /F7 /Bb7 /F7

Where there's two chords per measure, I've separated them with a hyphen.

The G#m7b5 occurs over the Fm7 in measure 4.

And, yes, it is fun!

"Don't worry 'bout it, Hoss. Just stomp your foot and grin."

if it really sounds funky (in a not good way) take a look at the next months issue and see if they made a correction. I had that problem once.. where i was learning something and it didn't sound right.. the next month... there was an oops note saying 'sorry that should have been an F# and not an F or something."

The tune's in Bb, and the chords go thus: Bb13 / Bb13 / Bb13 / Fm7 - Bb7 / Eb7 / Edim7 / Bb7 /Dm7 - Dm7 /Cm7 /F7 /Bb7 /F7

Where there's two chords per measure, I've separated them with a hyphen.

The G#m7b5 occurs over the Fm7 in measure 4.

And, yes, it is fun!

I'm sure Larry and Ken will clear it up the chromatic jazz element for us, but in this context that G#dim (G#m7b5) lick is a pivot to the IV7 (Eb7). Think of it as a semi-tone walkdown:

G#dim Eb7
-------------------
-D----Db----------
-B----Bb----------
-G#--G-----------
------------------
------------------

Clear as mud?

Ed

if it really sounds funky (in a not good way) take a look at the next months issue and see if they made a correction. I had that problem once.. where i was learning something and it didn't sound right.. the next month... there was an oops note saying 'sorry that should have been an F# and not an F or something."
Without knowing the tune or seeing the issue of GP I couldn't really tell you ...
Getbent may be on to something. I catch theory typos in those mags all the time. Some are corrected, some aren't.
You sort of answered it yourself though.
G#m7b5 is a sub (re-voice) for E9 which is a perfectly common passing chord to play over before going to Eb7, especially in a jazzy Bb blues. It's usually referred to as a "1/2 step approach" chord.

The only not that is strange is the F#... otherwise it could be seen as a Fmin7(13) with the B being a blues coloration. I'd like to see the exact voicing including the voicing of the chords before and after to check out the voice leading.

But as Ken says, it could be a typo!

My take is that Fm7 is is a sub for Bb7.Abm7b5 is almost the same as Bdim which again can be thought of as B7b9 , which is another common sub for Bb7


Im probably making this sound more complicated than it needs to be

Bb7 Bdim Eb is a pretty common swing and be bop move.I assume Jim was using an inversion of this rather than the long winded explanation above

I would call it an altered Bb7 leading to Eb. A secondary dominant (V of IV). G#/Ab = b7 of Bb7
Gb/F# = #5 of Bb7
B = b9 of Bb7
Ebb/D = 3 of Bb7

All standard alterations of the V chord.

First time i've ever been truly confused by a music theory post all day :lol:

I think once people start talking about and / or in music , it's a cue for Larry to do a post explaining key signatures :wink:

And maybe one of these ?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn258/flat357/CircleofFifths.png

I would call it an altered Bb7 leading to Eb. A secondary dominant (V of IV). G#/Ab = b7 of Bb7
Gb/F# = #5 of Bb7
B = b9 of Bb7
Ebb/D = 3 of Bb7

All standard alterations of the V chord.

but that doesn't account for the Eb, which would be sus4 on Bb, and the C from the Fmin7, which would be incompatible with B as b9.

I have the issue of GP it was in-July 97. In the introduction to the tune it says: Ready for some redneck-jazz steel-guitar lines? Hearing Speedy West on "This Ain't the Blues" and Leon McAuliffe on "Take It Away, Leon" inspired me to translate these sweeps to the fretboard. Pay attention to the picking indications. This is a hot-rod blues: Note the Gm7b5 against Fm7 in bar 4 and bar 12's tritone substitution (B9 over F7). Bar 10 has a raised 5 to keep things interesting.

This is the line played over the changes in measure 4.
The D-F#-A# is an 1/8 note triplet the rest of it is 1/8 notes.


--------------6--9---6--------
-----------7-------------7--8-
--------7----------------------
--6--9-------------------------
--------------------------------
--------------------------------

If I remember correctly, that particular passage was renamed to Gm7b5 (by the editor) and I can't remember why.

This is the line played over the changes in measure 4. The D-F#-A# is an 1/8 note triplet the rest of it is 1/8 notes.

GREAT line! - thanks.

I've got the July '97 GP open in front of me, and it says G#m7b5. And certainly the first note of the line in question is G#, not G.

At this point, I'm just going to forget about it and be content that the line sounds good.

Thanks for all the great responses!

but that doesn't account for the Eb, which would be sus4 on Bb, and the C from the Fmin7, which would be incompatible with B as b9.

The Eb would just be the 11th and C the 9th. It's very common to disregard the ii chord and just play V over the whole bar, which is what it sounds like is going on in this example. As far as the 9 and the b9 together, that's just a matter of listening to each other but it's probably going by fast enough that it wouldn't matter much anyway.

I've got the July '97 GP open in front of me, and it says G#m7b5. And certainly the first note of the line in question is G#, not G.

At this point, I'm just going to forget about it and be content that the line sounds good.

Thanks for all the great responses!

You know GP, they live for typos. I too played this piece and it is definitely a G#. This would fit with the Fm. I play it with a G#.