Why So Many Rics On Ebay Lately?

4000 series basses are my dream bass so for years now I've checked out ebay to see what was selling.

It seems that in the last year or so there's suddenly a lot more 4001 and 4003 basses (many with 'buy it now') than there ever were.

Anyone else notice this?

Ric doubled their prices recently and it has created a bit of a sell-off in the used market. People are getting alot more for their used Rics while those wishing to buy one can get it used for a lot less than new.

Doubled? No. They've increased list prices about 50% over the last 3 or 4 years after not increasing at all for many years. And even with expansion, they've been so far behind that dealers are offering them at or near list instead of the 30-35% discounts you used to be able to get at a lot of places. In turn, that has increased the used prices, which motivates more people to sell.

I think Dave W covered most of the points correctly.

There are a couple of other factors though at work here too.

For one example, there is a dealer named Olivia's Vintage. They buy used RIC stuff on eBay and then immediately turn them around again for sale.
So, in the past, if a RIC was bought on eBay, it was purchased by a player (or collector perhaps) but then it would not appear in circulation again (well, not for a while anyway). Now, roughly, every RIC instrument on the 'bay will appear twice.

There are a couple of other things going on with RICs and eBay which I don't wish to go into here. (One can research and find out.)

There are a couple of other things going on with RICs and eBay which I don't wish to go into here. (One can research and find out.)


Seems the perfect place to me... :roll:

Or is it a case of politics of a sort ??

Okay so it's not just me.

Seems the perfect place to me... :roll:

Or is it a case of politics of a sort ??


Sorry.
I know that seems like a bit of a tease.
But there are possibly potential legal issue type things.
And I'd rather not be the person to comment in public on such matters since I'm not privy to all (or even most) of the facts and issues at hand.



Okay so it's not just me.



Nope, not just you.

I don't think legal issues have anything to do with it. RIC is very zealous about protecting its trademarks, keeping copies off the market and even going after private sellers of older Rick copies. But that's been going on for years, long before the recent increases.

I bought a new 360 last year. Ordered it in April and didn't receive it until October. The average wait time was about 6 to 9 months for many of their models and for some up to 24 months.

While I was waiting for it I looked every where to get one sooner. A lot of the new Rics on E-bay had some line like "why wait for months - get your new Ric here and now" and you paid a premium for not waiting. I saw some models that were BIN listed for $1,000 more than I paid for mine. For that kinda of money I could wait.

So I figured that some stores were ordering the Rics and putting right up on E-bay as soon as they came in.

That was my take on the new stuff. I'm not really sure about vintage Rics on E-bay. I didn't really look at those.

Oh yeah - I do love my new 360.

I bought a new 360 a couple years ago from Zzounds for $1100. The list price is now $2499. Since alot of these are now selling near list price, I'd have to assume you might get one for $2200. That's "double the price in my book."

I bought a new 360 a couple years ago from Zzounds for $1100. The list price is now $2499. Since alot of these are now selling near list price, I'd have to assume you might get one for $2200. That's "double the price in my book."

The market has doubled the price for Rickenbacker guitars. Rickenbacker hasn't, contrary to what you suggested in your first post.

By the way, I'm really disappointed that my Rickenbacker 330 that I bought new in early 2007 is probably only worth 50 percent more than I paid for it. :smile:

Some guys were buying up 12 or more Rics from Musician's Friend at a time, then turning them on eBay for a tidy profit when they finally arrived. I think Ric pressured MF into finally stopping that by limiting the number of instruments you can buy at one time.

If I understand correctly, Ric warrantys are non-transferable, and Ric won't honor the warranty of these guitars even though they're new.

Some guys were buying up 12 or more Rics from Musician's Friend at a time, then turning them on eBay for a tidy profit when they finally arrived. I think Ric pressured MF into finally stopping that by limiting the number of instruments you can buy at one time.

If I understand correctly, Ric warrantys are non-transferable, and Ric won't honor the warranty of these guitars even though they're new.

That's pretty much what I suspected.

If I understand correctly, Ric warrantys are non-transferable, and Ric won't honor the warranty of these guitars even though they're new.

You understand correctly. Same is true of Fender guitars (not amps) and Gibson.

I bought a new 360 a couple years ago from Zzounds for $1100. The list price is now $2499. Since alot of these are now selling near list price, I'd have to assume you might get one for $2200. That's "double the price in my book."

yea...i guess if you actually do the math :mrgreen:

a lot of things are more expensive when you actually do the math instead of believing all the salespitches/spinning

reality bites, .......when you care to acknowledge it.

They're nicely made guitars. Some are actually beautiful.

They're nicely made guitars. Some are actually beautiful.

They sure are! One of a kind.

I like mine better though! You should try a 360 that has been ergonomically corrected. T'is a beautiful thing! I was offered a lot of money for one of my "Rickenrockers" but turned it down. It's too much fun to play not to mention, I never sell the guitars I build.

yea...i guess if you actually do the math :mrgreen:

a lot of things are more expensive when you actually do the math instead of believing all the salespitches/spinning

reality bites, .......when you care to acknowledge it.

:rolleyes:

All right, then, lets' do the math, since Bob (Telenator) said "Ric doubled their prices recently..":

Rick 4003: $1529 list (Jan 1 1998 price list)
Rick 4003: $2159 list (Dec 13 2007 price list)

Now, my calculator says that's a 41% price increase over 10 years. Does that sound doubled recently to you?

And if you're willing to wait and you know the right authorized dealer, you can still get 30% off list. Even more if it's a store you've bought from before.

You're right. From what I've seen people are "paying" twice as much now but that is not the policy handed down from Ric. All in all, a 360 was a real deal at $1100 when you consider the craftsmanship that goes into them. At $2200, I'm not so sure. There are a lot more options available in that price range that in my opinion are better guitars.

Nothing beats Rickenbacker - a real Rickenbacker. I don't care about ergonomics. The only concession to ergonomics my '61 Harmony Rocket has is a cuttaway so I can play up the neck! :mrgreen:

I've heard the same complaint about old Gretsches (how the bridges don't line up, the binding is rough, whatever...). My dream Gretsch isn't Fender or Japanese made, it's an old Brooklyn booze and smoke soaked songmaker. I'll know it when I see it!

Rickenbacker's designs predate fretboard pyrotechnics and generally don't appeal to the precision players out there anyway. They have the vibe and I don't think they're overpriced at all. Out of my range personally but maybe one day.

...Not from ebay though.

There are some ergonomic issues with Rics that the factory won't address. First of all, the bridges are not mounted in the right spot, you'll see a lot of Rics with all the adjustable bridge saddles screwed as far back as they'll go. The whole assembly needs to be moved farther away from the nut, they got the math wrong. There are some luthiers who are Ric specialists who know how to fix this though.

Secondly the string spacing on the 12-string models is wack. All the strings are too close together, and the pairs are spaced too widely. It makes the neck feel like a solid wall of strings. Some of them feel more like a cheese slicer than a guitar. This is also something that some Ric specialists know how to fix.

You're right. From what I've seen people are "paying" twice as much now but that is not the policy handed down from Ric. All in all, a 360 was a real deal at $1100 when you consider the craftsmanship that goes into them. At $2200, I'm not so sure. There are a lot more options available in that price range that in my opinion are better guitars.

Agreed (not that I have $2200 to spend).

They have a certain sound and a certain style that appeals. But that only goes so far.

There are some ergonomic issues with Rics that the factory won't address. First of all, the bridges are not mounted in the right spot, you'll see a lot of Rics with all the adjustable bridge saddles screwed as far back as they'll go. The whole assembly needs to be moved farther away from the nut, they got the math wrong. There are some luthiers who are Ric specialists who know how to fix this though.

Secondly the string spacing on the 12-string models is wack. All the strings are too close together, and the pairs are spaced too widely. It makes the neck feel like a solid wall of strings. Some of them feel more like a cheese slicer than a guitar. This is also something that some Ric specialists know how to fix.

Not trying to be argumentative but why would the factory address these issues? When did they come to light and who complained about them? Roger McGuinn? Chris Squire? Paul McCartney?

I was in the market for a new bass a few years back and my trusted local shop did their best to dissuade me from even liking Rickenbacker basses on account of the bridge not being straight (different problem from the one you mention). I didn't really listen to him. Price - then as now - was the only issue keeping me from getting a Ric.

My point earlier (didn't really state it as such re Gretsch, Harmony) was that most guitars - make that all guitars - have some sort of problem or another depending on who's playing.

Secondly the string spacing on the 12-string models is wack. All the strings are too close together, and the pairs are spaced too widely. It makes the neck feel like a solid wall of strings. Some of them feel more like a cheese slicer than a guitar. This is also something that some Ric specialists know how to fix.

The string spacing on the 360-12 IS a pain, but I played a 620-12 (like the one on the cover of Tom Petty's "Damn the Torpedoes") and it was perfectly playable. Never could understand why they can't put that spacing on a 360!

Cheers, Tim

Rics are beautiful to look at but atrocious to play. Their ergonomics are totally archaic and have not kept pace with the times.

"Well gee wizz Telenator, they sell every single one they make."

Yeah, they sell them to people who, for the most part covet them and never take them out of the house. I suppose that's alright on one hand but it sure would be nice to see them getting played and making a contribution to music every so often. Ric sightings are very rare on the music stages of this world.

They have some cool, dated looking shapes. It would be nice if they were up to the task of being played effectively by people who actually contribute to the world of music. That will only happen if they learn to make instruments that people want to play. Until then, (IMO) Rics will just be poser guitars.

The string spacing on the 360-12 IS a pain, but I played a 620-12 (like the one on the cover of Tom Petty's "Damn the Torpedoes") and it was perfectly playable. Never could understand why they can't put that spacing on a 360!




Are you sure it wasn't a 660-12? That model has a wider fingerboard, but is otherwise mostly the same as a 620.

There's also an age element. Sometime in the late '80s or early '90s Grover Jackson did some work for Ric and it was his influence that caused the present 12-string spacing debacle. Earlier guitars are less crazy.

As for Telenator's comments, they seem odd considering this is a message board dedicated to a guitar designed in the late 1940s.

Rickenbacker is a frustrating guitar company, owned by a man who is extremely arrogant about his business practices, making interesting but flawed instruments. Fortunately some of the worst flaws can be fixed, but at a price, after you've already paid for the guitar too.

Yeah, they sell them to people who, for the most part covet them and never take them out of the house. I suppose that's alright on one hand but it sure would be nice to see them getting played and making a contribution to music every so often. Ric sightings are very rare on the music stages of this world.


Oh come on! :lol:

The basses have never gone out of style. The guitars are a little out of place in today's guitar world but they'll come back. I'd help that if I could but I've got my collection already and have bills to pay! Besides, everyone I know who owns a Ric has played Live and records all the time with them. That's a mental count of at least 10 people firsthand.

Kudos to Ric for not bending with the times. The times - musically speaking - aren't right anyway.

Are you sure it wasn't a 660-12? That model has a wider fingerboard, but is otherwise mostly the same as a 620.

Could have been, I was broke so I tried not to pay too much attention!

:oops:

Cheers, Tim

As for Telenator's comments, they seem odd considering this is a message board dedicated to a guitar designed in the late 1940s.

Rickenbacker is a frustrating guitar company, owned by a man who is extremely arrogant about his business practices, making interesting but flawed instruments. Fortunately some of the worst flaws can be fixed, but at a price, after you've already paid for the guitar too.

Again, most popular guitars designed long ago have 'flaws':

*Three-Saddled teles don't intonate and their non-contoured bodies hurt one's ribcage
*SG necks break when you breathe on them.
*Bigsby tailpieces are horribly unreliable and a complete b*tch to string.

We all know the majority vote on how Tele players feel about the improved six-saddle tele bridge. What Gibson player would welcome a big fat neck on their SG and what Rockabilly player would use a much more efficient Floyd Rose?

Posers?

I don't doubt that Rickenbackers too are flawed instruments but they aren't flawed in a way that would personally impeded my playing them.

Ric guitars made in the 1960s have excellent playability by the standards of any time. I think the problem is not that they have failed to keep up with the times, but that they have forgotten what made their guitars good. Seems like their major flaws have popped up when they tried to contemporize.

For example, changing from 21-fret to 24-fret necks and from 7 1/4" radius to a much flatter fingerboard would be seen as modernizing the design of their guitars, no? As well as modifying their pickup design for higher output? Only thing is, the kind of shredders who need flat 24-fret necks don't buy Rics. I think Ric, in their attempt to not be relics of the past, have turned their backs on their core user group. Here's a quote from Chairman John Hall that sums it up: "Vintage is just so, vintage". The fanboys and brown nosers on the Ric message boards eat this stuff up, as they collect their Color Of The Year Rics.

Ric guitars made in the 1960s have excellent playability by the standards of any time. I think the problem is not that they have failed to keep up with the times, but that they have forgotten what made their guitars good. Seems like their major flaws have popped up when they tried to contemporize.

For example, changing from 21-fret to 24-fret necks and from 7 1/4" radius to a much flatter fingerboard would be seen as modernizing the design of their guitars, no? As well as modifying their pickup design for higher output? Only thing is, the kind of shredders who need flat 24-fret necks don't buy Rics. I think Ric, in their attempt to not be relics of the past, have turned their backs on their core user group. Here's a quote from Chairman John Hall that sums it up: "Vintage is just so, vintage". The fanboys and brown nosers on the Ric message boards eat this stuff up, as they collect their Color Of The Year Rics.

Okay, that's interesting. For the record, I would've prefered a vintage Ric anyway but this is even more of a push in that direction.

It's their basses I've always liked the best. Chris Squire and all that but also - later on in my tastes - Bruce Foxton and The Jam.

There's the price of them that intimidates but also - with the vintage ones - the potential for fakery. Odd that such an expensive frontrunner guitar would serialize its instruments with a stamped metal plate. Not hard to fake those! :roll: Wait a minute...Fender did that too. Well at least they had other markers.

Rics no doubt have snob appeal but in my own small corner of the world, I've seen plenty of them in action.

There are a couple of issues with the basses. First of all, the 4001 models' necks aren't strong enough for modern bass strings. Apparently the old flatwounds had less tension? Also, rounds will chew up the frets. The 4003 was made to address this problem. So make sure you put Pyramid or TI flatwound strings on your 4001 if you ever get one.

Secondly, the bridge/tailpiece has a tendency to pull up from the body with age, something about the metallurgy and the force vectors. Apparently there are some mods that will fix this, if it hasn't already happened, which involve tapping some extra screws through the bridge/tailpiece into the body. I don't know exactly where, but they are concealed in use. Or you can use the Hipshot replacement bridge for Ric basses, which John Hall has tried to put a stop to. He claims the form factor of the Hipshot bridge violates Ric's trade dress. Hall claims that Ric have a new bass bridge that solves the bridge lift problem, which may make it into production by 2011 or so.

Ric guitars made in the 1960s have excellent playability by the standards of any time. I think the problem is not that they have failed to keep up with the times, but that they have forgotten what made their guitars good. Seems like their major flaws have popped up when they tried to contemporize.

For example, changing from 21-fret to 24-fret necks and from 7 1/4" radius to a much flatter fingerboard would be seen as modernizing the design of their guitars, no? As well as modifying their pickup design for higher output? Only thing is, the kind of shredders who need flat 24-fret necks don't buy Rics. I think Ric, in their attempt to not be relics of the past, have turned their backs on their core user group. Here's a quote from Chairman John Hall that sums it up: "Vintage is just so, vintage". The fanboys and brown nosers on the Ric message boards eat this stuff up, as they collect their Color Of The Year Rics.

Absolutely correct!

I will concede the point on their basses. The 4001's do sound great, especially after you fix the wiring to let all the highs through, and replace the truss rod that will inevitably snap. I have a couple friends who play them and they sound fine.

Ric guitars on the other hand are simply archaic instruments lost in time that happen to be attractive enough that people will still buy them, hence this thread and subsequent ebay sightings. Whatever the reason, I suppose it's good that people are passionate about something. I just get put off by the smug attitudes and Ric players, uh, I mean, collectors who treat a guy like he's mentally defective for wanting a wider neck on a 12 string guitar.

I'll bet you see more Rics on ebay than anywhere else. They sure don't get out in public very often. That's a little strange.

Actually, I see a nice Rickenbacker 360 guitar several times a month, as our local Italian restaurant has a guy who does a Sinatra/standards thing twice a week, playing a well-worn early 70s Ric along with backing tracks. Sweet guitar, and he's worn the finish right off of the neck in a few places...

Cheers, Tim

4000 series basses are my dream bass so for years now I've checked out ebay to see what was selling.

It seems that in the last year or so there's suddenly a lot more 4001 and 4003 basses (many with 'buy it now') than there ever were.

Anyone else notice this?

Could be the economy. Lots of people are struggling right now and are unloading gear they don't want or can't afford to keep anymore. It's a buyer's market so if you want one now's the time to wheel and deal.

I love mine.

Actually, I see a nice Rickenbacker 360 guitar several times a month, as our local Italian restaurant has a guy who does a Sinatra/standards thing twice a week, playing a well-worn early 70s Ric along with backing tracks. Sweet guitar, and he's worn the finish right off of the neck in a few places...

Cheers, Tim

Well Tim, you certainly are in the minority. They are beautiful looking guitars, I'll give them that.

Well Tim, you certainly are in the minority.



This is one of the "urban myths" of the IRHC (Internet Rickenbacker Haters Club) ... that all Rickenbacker instruments are purchased by middle-aged Beatle-wanna-bes and never leave the closet.

I have not done a scientific poll but there are a lot more RICs out there being played than IRHC members think.
Maybe not at the clubs you go to but that doesn't mean they're not out there.


BTW, a couple of posters got very close to what I was referring to earlier.

My take on Rics is this:
There are plenty out there, and they get played, even though over here, the prices are probably near double the US prices, list.

Having worked on a few 4000 series basses, I have to say that I don't consider them in any way better built than any Fender, and therefore not worth their asking price. Good looking basses, though! As for 6-stringers...no. Not my cup of tea at all.

[COLOR="Navy"] IRHC (Internet Rickenbacker Haters Club)

LOL! IRHC! That's a beauty! :lol:

It probably stems in part from Ric owners general smugness.

It probably stems in part from Ric owners geberal smugness.

Geberal smugness is the worst kind of smugness there is!!!!!

:mrgreen:

Cheers, Tim

I see Rick guitars and basses frequently in indie rock bands. The basses are more common than the guitars, but still, the guitars are certainly not rare. OTOH, I never see them in blues-oriented rock bands or in country.

Fanboys? They're everywhere. Not just at Rick forums.

I see Rick guitars and basses frequently in indie rock bands. The basses are more common than the guitars, but still, the guitars are certainly not rare. OTOH, I never see them in blues-oriented rock bands or in country.

I see the basses occasionally in all sorts of bands. The guitars do seem limited to Indie Rock and '60s tributes though.

Fanboys? They're everywhere. Not just at Rick forums.

Ric fanboys are a special breed, though, not just because of geberal smugness, but because they "get" to hang out online with the CEO of the company. John Hall deigns to make his presence known on his own company's forum, and at Voxtalks and Ric Resource, where dissenting voices are quickly silenced by mods who are eager to brownnose him.

ive always loved to get a dakota or black650 (the smaller 3 pick up that lenon was commonly seen playing)

friend mark has a dakota with the gold hardware. such a nice guitar.

I like mine better though! You should try a 360 that has been ergonomically corrected. T'is a beautiful thing! I was offered a lot of money for one of my "Rickenrockers" but turned it down. It's too much fun to play not to mention, I never sell the guitars I build.

If I promise to give them a good home, will you give them to me? That walnut one is just stunning.

:mrgreen:

ive always loved to get a dakota or black650 (the smaller 3 pick up that lenon was commonly seen playing)



Lennon's was a 325.

Ric fanboys are a special breed, though, not just because of geberal smugness, but because they "get" to hang out online with the CEO of the company. John Hall deigns to make his presence known on his own company's forum, and at Voxtalks and Ric Resource, where dissenting voices are quickly silenced by mods who are eager to brownnose him.

I posted regularly at RickResource circa 2002-04; just got "forum fatigue", too much of the same thing over and over. There are some fanatics there, maybe more than on other brand forums. But I didn't find anybody smug (geberal or otherwise :grin: ) or any more defensive than fans of any brand would be if someone comes in for no other reason than to attack their favorite brand. I disagreed publicly with John Hall a couple of times, he was certainly cool about it, and he was very nice and helpful to me when I emailed him a couple of times. Problem is, some of his policies are controversial and some people just don't know how to politely disagree. I saw some attacks on him that were outright libelous and others that were just plain nasty. I can see where he wouldn't want to participate under those circumstances and I can also understand why a forum owner would rather have him around than to allow that kind of posting.

Geberally speaking, I have had some interesting times with RIC the company, their product, and their forums.

Having a background in design and manufacturing, it wigs me out a little when a beautiful design doesn't function properly. One could say, "that's just your opinion" and they'd be right, but they would also need to consider the mutitudes of people who agree that there are some nagging issues with Ric guitars in particular.

Anyway, not to get too far off track, my experiences with "everything Ric" have been interesting to say the least.

Problem is, some of his policies are controversial and some people just don't know how to politely disagree. I saw some attacks on him that were outright libelous and others that were just plain nasty. I can see where he wouldn't want to participate under those circumstances


JH has, in fact, (except on very rare occasions) stopped posting to the RR Forum.

I have a 4001 bass and several Ric guitars. I got the bass used, in about '79 or '80 (around when the 4003 was introduced). I've never had structural issues with it, like a bridge lifting, but the buzz when I got it was that roundwounds would eat your frets -- so during my "term of stewardship," it has ALWAYS had ground-roundwounds. Low tension? I dunno...

Rics are what they are. For a few years, the ONLY guitar I brought to a gig was a 330 (later I added a 360-12). In my experience, every instrument presents specific challenges and opportunities: Strats don't sound like Les Pauls, and vice versa. What you do with those challenges and opportunities helps define you as a player (and/or as a writer/arranger).

My big challenge was, how to make a jangly Ric sound bigger and thicker. That led me to unusual chord shapes, open-string voicings, double-stops and octaves; lots of little things.

The necks don't bother me. Yeah, for some kinds of noodling, I prefer my Fenders. But that's why I have Rics AND Fenders.

JH has, in fact, (except on very rare occasions) stopped posting to the RR Forum.

And Voxtalks is pretty much defunct, due to its former owner/admin being revealed as a scammer.

due to its former owner/admin being revealed as a scammer.



Yeah, that was sad.

could never bond with the ricks. tried for many years, but i just got to have that fender maple neck. always thought the jazz and p-basses sounded better anyway. when i first started playing bass in bands. (about the time of rush's caress of steel & fly by night) i tried to get into them because of getty. now he seems to mostly be using a jazz bass now anyway. a lot of people like them, but just not for me...:neutral:

My neighbors kid was looking for a new bass when he was 18. He's a very talented player. He was looking at all sorts of "kid" basses and some pretty cool, lesser known brands. When he asked my advice I said, "dude, I've been playing for a long time and have seen a lot of guys play a lot of basses over the years. Custom made basses, modified basses, off brand basses and everything you can think of basses, but after several years and loads of experience, they now all play either Fender Jazz Basses, or Precisions. So why don't you just save yourself the expense and effort and buy one of those now and get it all out of the way."

He bought a Jazz Bass 3 years ago and swears by it. Occasionally he goes shopping for a new bass but just keeps going back to his Jazz Bass instead of buying a new one. Smart kid! Great player!

Yeah, that was sad.

It was funny. The sad part was that they had years of warnings, there were plenty of people who knew what NT was up to, but JH, ER and others chose to ignore those warnings. NT had influential people who were enabling his scam, who wouldn't listen until the **** finally hit the fan. There were a lot of "I told you so"s going around last summer when it all went down. BeatGearCavern was the one board where the truth about NT had been known. Getting banned from Voxtalks was like a badge of honor, and those people ended up at BGC.

I had this pretty looking bass for awhile.

http://members.cox.net/claudevl/4005front01.jpg


I never really bonded with it either.

It was huge.

It was neck heavy.

It was purple.

I named it "Barney"

"Barney" was a case queen.

It was easy enough to play, except for being huge and neck-heavy.

It had a nice woody sound.

I don't really miss it.

The person that bought it from me seemed to be ecstatic to get it.

Sure is pretty, though.

I've only once actually PLAYED a Rickenbacker bass, and to be perfectly honest, I had problems with it. It was about fifteen years ago, so I don't remember a lot of details, not even if it was a 4001 or a 4003 (or something else), but the one thing I remember is that I had a difficult time with the neck profile. For some reason, I had a hell of a time fretting on the E string. Perhaps the shape of the back was messing with me? I don't know, can't remember anything about how it actually felt, just that my fingetips kept missing that string!

Anyway, there have certainly been a fair number of folks playing them, so I reckon it was just me...

Cheers, Tim

Not just you, Tim. After years of me admiring the look of the 4001s & '3s I finally got to try a Ric bass when a friend got one. I picked it up & instantly hated actually playing it. Never tried again. Gimme an F!

It was funny. The sad part was


The sad part was that a lot of people lost money.


(A lot of people here probably have no idea what we're talking about.)

First off, thanks David Barnett for the info on the bridge lift problems. I had wondered why I'd seen mangled Rics with Badass bridges over the years. Also the neck. Something else to be careful about pre-purchase, for sure.

When I was a kid back in the early '80s, I used to buy the classifieds paper (it was called 'Buy & Sell' here). There was two things I routinely searched for and I remember the prices well: MXR Distortion + ($30.00) and Rickenbacker 4001 Bass ($400.00).

I presently play a Jazz Bass which - as far as bass goes - is my 'signature' sound (w/ flats and Carvin stacked HB pickups). Maple neck with black binding and block markers. It's not like I don't know or appreciate Fender basses!

One thing that Fender instruments in general lack is character. This may be the cause of oversaturation or even due to 'character' being the domain of 'inferior' design - who knows? All I know is that I can pick out a Ric bass from 10 miles away. If you like that sound - that's the bass that makes that sound. Simple enough, no argument I should think.

I borrowed a 4001 a few years back and really enjoyed it. I've also been in the store a few times with one in my lap thinking of how I could justify the purchase. Some used Rics I've seen have been overpriced substandard instruments, no question. I'm picky about everything. I'm not dazzled by names.

The closest I came to owning a 4003 was a few years back. I placed my order, waited many months, had an important recording date coming up and wanted to use it or something equally special so I called the store and they confirmed that Rickenbacker hadn't even started the order yet! So I cancelled my order in good conscience and bought a brand new American Series Precision Bass in Inca Silver. That was a beautiful, flawless instrument...but it wasn't a Rickenbacker.

Despite this, that's one thing I really admire Rickenbacker for - keeping their shop a U.S. shop. Say what you will, they're the only original company that has.

I had this pretty looking bass for awhile.

http://members.cox.net/claudevl/4005front01.jpg


I never really bonded with it either.

It was huge.

It was neck heavy.

It was purple.

I named it "Barney"

"Barney" was a case queen.

It was easy enough to play, except for being huge and neck-heavy.

It had a nice woody sound.

I don't really miss it.

The person that bought it from me seemed to be ecstatic to get it.

In December 1974 I went to The Rock Shop with several hundred dollars in my pocket, determined to walk out of there with a guitar. The three instruments there that day that caught my eye were a ~'69 Telecaster, a ~66 Epiphone Riviera, and a Ric 4005 bass. The 4005 was Burgandyglo like yours, but was the rare "WB" version with the bound top.

Playing that 4005 reminded me of a Gretsch bass, everything felt shifted to the left. It would work well for someone with long arms, but I have short limbs and it just wasn't a good fit. I took the Epiphone home.

Notice in the picture of your 4005 that all the bridge saddles are screwed all the way to the back of the bridge? That's what I was talking about before, the bridges are placed wrong and some of the instruments won't intonate, they're sharp even with the saddles back as far as they'll go.

The sad part was that a lot of people lost money.


(A lot of people here probably have no idea what we're talking about.)

I registered at VoxTalks years ago but never posted. Heard rumors about NT for years. Got wind of the whole fiasco after NT was arrested but never followed it after that. Registered at Beat Gear Cavern but I've never posted there either.

Notice in the picture of your 4005 that all the bridge saddles are screwed all the way to the back of the bridge? That's what I was talking about before, the bridges are placed wrong and some of the instruments won't intonate, they're sharp even with the saddles back as far as they'll go.

I'm 6'1" with reasonably long arms and prefer a fat "C" shaped "P" neck, but I had to stretch to reach the lower frets on the 4005.

It definitely wasn't easy to reach or comfortable, especially with the neck dive.

With the saddles cranked all the way down like that the intonation wasn't audibly off, but it showed on a strobe.

I probably would have had it fixed if I had liked playing it a bit more.

One thing that Fender instruments in general lack is character.

Hey, boy- You do know this here is a Telecaster board? You better watch yerself. :wink:

Seriously, I can't think of a guitar with more "character" than a Tele.

Interesting thread. I had no idea there was so much emotiona dn drama around Rics.

My brother had a 360-12 when he was seventeen. It was a PITA to play, but I sucked then. More than now, I mean.

I think it was from the 60's or 70's. This was about 1985, and it was old then. Original hardshell case, with almost no padding, that axe used to flop around like crazy in there. I wonder what that would be worth now. Painful to think about...

Hey, boy- You do know this here is a Telecaster board? You better watch yerself. :wink:

Seriously, I can't think of a guitar with more "character" than a Tele.


:smile: I realize that and I wasn't trying to be a troublemaker. In a way I was complimenting Fenders when I went on to attribute 'character' in another instrument as being due to inherent 'flaws', in the same way that it's somewhat of a backhand compliment to be told you have a face that has 'real character', for example. To compare, Fenders are pretty slick. Plus, I was refrring to the basses.

Fender rules the world and that's made for a pretty homogenized sound at times. My ears crave Ric basses in the same way they crave acoustics that don't sound like Martin/Taylor/Larrive. I'm sick of solid tops and thin lacquer finishes! I want thick glossy lacquer like Gibson or Ovation!

Ah, we're all crazy here! :lol:

One thing that Fender instruments in general lack is character. This may be the cause of oversaturation or even due to 'character' being the domain of 'inferior' design - who knows? All I know is that I can pick out a Ric bass from 10 miles away. If you like that sound - that's the bass that makes that sound. Simple enough, no argument I should think.

I THINK you mean Fenders have such a ubiquitous character that they don't register on most folks radar as being distinctively different. They're the baseline bassline! :razz:

At least, that's what I HOPE you mean!!! :twisted:

Cheers, Tim

I THINK you mean Fenders have such a ubiquitous character that they don't register on most folks radar as being distinctively different. They're the baseline bassline! :razz:

At least, that's what I HOPE you mean!!! :twisted:

Cheers, Tim


That's exactly what I mean. :smile:

I THINK you mean Fenders have such a ubiquitous character that they don't register on most folks radar as being distinctively different. They're the baseline bassline! :razz:

At least, that's what I HOPE you mean!!! :twisted:

Cheers, Tim


That's just awesome! LOL! So eloquent! .........and of course, exactly what a bass should be! Bass is seldom a "stand out" instrument and is most effective when it's not "standing out." If it's standing out, it's usually too loud! Bass sounds best (to me) when it blends perfectly with the surrounding instruments. When the sound is most appropriate for in the context of the song. Long live Fender basses!!!

That's just awesome! LOL! So eloquent! .........and of course, exactly what a bass should be! Bass is seldom a "stand out" instrument and is most effective when it's not "standing out." If it's standing out, it's usually too loud! Bass sounds best (to me) when it blends perfectly with the surrounding instruments. When the sound is most appropriate for in the context of the song. Long live Fender basses!!!
you're preachin' to the choir..........:eek:

Well sure long live Fender basses but I for one am glad that The Beatles' and Yes' basslines stuck out the way they did and that they were played on Hofner and Ric basses and not Fenders.

By the same token, I'm glad James Jamerson's basslines were done with Fenders and NOT Ric or Hofners.

I'm also (so) glad that Jack Bruce's basslines were murky overdriven Gibson EB-0 basslines.

Long live VARIETY!

Well sure long live Fender basses but I for one am glad that The Beatles basslines stuck out the way they did and that they were played on Hofner and Ric basses and not Fenders.

By the same token, I'm glad James Jamerson's basslines were done with Fenders and NOT Ric or Hofners.

Long live VARIETY!

Long live "playing what is appropriate for the song!"

In this era of everyone wanting to be a soloist and stand out in the band, it is awesome to go see a group play that really gets it. They all "play to the song" and strive for a good mix.

To me, "playing to the song" is all about playing what is appropriate. I couldn't imagine hearing Yes playing Roundabout without Chris Squier playing a Ric bass! But I sure wouldn't want to here that sound behind BB King.

Interesting thread. I had no idea there was so much emotiona dn drama around Rics.



Ohhh, you have no idea . . .



My brother had a 360-12 when he was seventeen. I think it was from the 60's or 70's. I wonder what that would be worth now. Painful to think about...


Hard to say. Depends a lot on the condition. A very good condition 360/12 from that era might fetch up to $4000.

Despite what some may think, vintage RICs are not crazy high unless they are extremely rare and/or in high demand such as the 4005 bass which goes nowadays for around $8000 to $10,000.

Well sure long live Fender basses but I for one am glad that The Beatles' and Yes' basslines stuck out the way they did and that they were played on Hofner and Ric basses and not Fenders.

By the same token, I'm glad James Jamerson's basslines were done with Fenders and NOT Ric or Hofners.

I'm also (so) glad that Jack Bruce's basslines were murky overdriven Gibson EB-0 basslines.

Long live VARIETY!


There's a lot of Fender bass on the "White Album", "Let It Be", and "Abbey Road". By that time they had two Jazz Basses, one lefty and one righty, as well as a Bass VI.

Long live "playing what is appropriate for the song!"

That's a pretty subjective statement, don't you think?

There's a lot of Fender bass on the "White Album", "Let It Be", and "Abbey Road". By that time they had two Jazz Basses, one lefty and one righty, as well as a Bass VI.

Really? On the white album? I knew about the VI, it's in the Hey Jude promo film. That's cool if they did. I'm liking my Jazz more and more! :smile:

I always thought the Ric was Paul's 'psychedelic' bass and that he returned to the Hofner by '68 or so.

I wonder if the righty Jazz is what John played (badly) on 'Long & Winding Road'?

Long live "playing what is appropriate for the song!"

That's a pretty subjective statement, don't you think?

That's what makes it so awesome when a band gets it right!!!

Really? On the white album? I knew about the VI, it's in the Hey Jude promo film. That's cool if they did. I'm liking my Jazz more and more! :smile:

I always thought the Ric was Paul's 'psychedelic' bass and that he returned to the Hofner by '68 or so.

I wonder if the righty Jazz is what John played (badly) on 'Long & Winding Road'?

The Hofner only re-appeared briefly for The Rooftop Concert and some other LIB-era stuff, and maybe "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" which was tracked at the end of the LIB period. For White Album and Abbey Road stuff, McCartney was mostly alternating between the Ric and the JB.

This is one of the "urban myths" of the IRHC (Internet Rickenbacker Haters Club) ... that all Rickenbacker instruments are purchased by middle-aged Beatle-wanna-bes and never leave the closet.

I have not done a scientific poll but there are a lot more RICs out there being played than IRHC members think.
Maybe not at the clubs you go to but that doesn't mean they're not out there.


BTW, a couple of posters got very close to what I was referring to earlier.

Aw that's just grrrrrreat ! Now we've been exposed.
That's it, tomorrow I'm sending my IRHC membership card and secret
decoder ring back for a refund. :wink:

Aw that's just grrrrrreat ! Now we've been exposed.
That's it, tomorrow I'm sending my IRHC membership card and secret
decoder ring back for a refund. :wink:

Yeah, busted!:wink: :lol:

I never said anything about the Beatles though.

But, I do picture Ric fanatics sitting in their bedrooms wearing silk pajamas so they don't mark their precious accessory. The shades are drawn and the case is carefully removed from the back of the closet so as not to scratch it. Then, slowly, with the ferverance of a fine cork sniffer, the latches are unleashed and the lid is slowly opened filling the area with the sweet aroma of polishing compound that lasts for years and years if you're careful NOT to leave the case open or keep the guitar outside the case for too long.

The instrument is gazed upon for a long moment and their eyes become moist as it is removed from it's coffin wafting the scent higher into the room. Everything starts spinning and the senses go on overload when the first chord is struck, lightly mind you, because t'would be a travesty to mark the finish. They might strap it on, stand in front of the mirror like a woman and strike a few "on stage" poses tossing the instrument to and fro. (carefully of course) And then, before the first bead of sweat can sully the finish, the instrument is returned to it's case where it will reside until the owner is struck by the next flight of whimsy to gaze upon his beloved Ric.

After that, he moves over to the computer, lights a cigarette and inhales deeply then blowing out a long, satisfying whoosh of smoke. It was good for him too, and he is now overwhelmed to share the experience with other fanatics on the internet.

But, I do picture Ric fanatics sitting in their bedrooms wearing silk pajamas so they don't mark their precious accessory. The shades are drawn and the case is carefully removed from the back of the closet so as not to scratch it. Then, slowly, with the ferverance of a fine cork sniffer, the latches are unleashed and the lid is slowly opened filling the area with the sweet aroma of polishing compound that lasts for years and years if you're careful NOT to leave the case open or keep the guitar outside the case for too long.




Uhm .......... That's creative writing. :grin:

I must not be getting the whole Ric thing. Mine is in a stand right beside my amp so that I can grab it anytime and rip off a few Tom Petty or REM licks. Well actually anything that I feel like playing.

And besides that - I don't smoke.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Uhm .......... That's creative writing.

I must not be getting the whole Ric thing. Mine is in a stand right beside my amp so that I can grab it anytime and rip off a few Tom Petty or REM licks. Well actually anything that I feel like playing.

And besides that - I don't smoke.




:mrgreen: You sir are in a prestigeous minority! :mrgreen: Smoking is bad for your health!:razz: :lol:

No, really, I'm just poking a little fun because of the reference to the IRHC. That was creative!

Played a used 4003 last night -- I'm not sure I ever played one before. The neck was NOTICEABLY chunkier than my 4001. Felt very different!

I may have to go back and try it again today. Something about them Rics just draws me in...

:

No, really, I'm just poking a little fun because of the reference to the IRHC. That was creative!

I did get that. I thought your story was hilarious. :lol:

I guess my reply lacked the satirical wit of your post. :oops:

4000 series basses are my dream bass so for years now I've checked out ebay to see what was selling.

It seems that in the last year or so there's suddenly a lot more 4001 and 4003 basses (many with 'buy it now') than there ever were.

Anyone else notice this?

rickys (bass and guitars) are like gretsch and mosrite

they go through really hot times and lulls

us fender folk never see lulls like that so it seems strange

but i have had the ricky, gretsch, and silvertone fetish in the past and while none of these guitars attained the legendary status of the stratocaster, they are actually more fun to me

i want so much to try and airline guitar but have never had that chance

I did get that. I thought your story was hilarious. :lol:

I guess my reply lacked the satirical wit of your post. :oops:

Bwah ha ha! No, I got it. It's all good! :lol:

Hey, boy- You do know this here is a Telecaster board? You better watch yerself. :wink:

Seriously, I can't think of a guitar with more "character" than a Tele.



i think the perception of a fender not having character is that the word fender is more synonymous with the term electric guitar than any other brand

fender is to electics as kleenex is to facial tissue...it's the standard

and almost every major electric guitar maker has a stratocaster type guitar in their lineup (including second place gibson/epiphone and third place ibanez)

for many non guitar players i hear them say that person has a fender les paul, but i have never heard anybody say gibson stratocaster or gibson telecaster

and though there are many great amps, fender also has the most coverage in that market

so if i have to talk about character within the fender world, the telecaster certainly has more of that mojo than the stratocaster

Fenders are the PCs of the world, and Rickenbackers are the Macs.

Take that however you want, from a guy who plays both frequently.

But, I do picture Ric fanatics sitting in their bedrooms wearing silk pajamas so they don't mark their precious accessory. The shades are drawn and the case is carefully removed from the back of the closet so as not to scratch it. Then, slowly, with the ferverance of a fine cork sniffer, the latches are unleashed and the lid is slowly opened filling the area with the sweet aroma of polishing compound that lasts for years and years if you're careful NOT to leave the case open or keep the guitar outside the case for too long.

The instrument is gazed upon for a long moment and their eyes become moist as it is removed from it's coffin wafting the scent higher into the room. Everything starts spinning and the senses go on overload when the first chord is struck, lightly mind you, because t'would be a travesty to mark the finish. They might strap it on, stand in front of the mirror like a woman and strike a few "on stage" poses tossing the instrument to and fro. (carefully of course) And then, before the first bead of sweat can sully the finish, the instrument is returned to it's case where it will reside until the owner is struck by the next flight of whimsy to gaze upon his beloved Ric.

After that, he moves over to the computer, lights a cigarette and inhales deeply then blowing out a long, satisfying whoosh of smoke. It was good for him too, and he is now overwhelmed to share the experience with other fanatics on the internet.

LOL! You obviously have an agenda here. I no longer own any Ricks at present and I have no vested interest in defending them, but let me say this: Every Rick owner I know personally plays one in a band. That's only a couple dozen people but that's my experience. Even if some Rick fanboys fit your description, forum members don't necessarily represent the real world.

I did sell one of mine to a collector who never plays them, but he owns way more Fenders than Ricks. And he was a touring musician many years ago.

Yeah, busted!:wink: :lol:

I never said anything about the Beatles though.

But, I do picture Ric fanatics sitting in their bedrooms wearing silk pajamas so they don't mark their precious accessory. The shades are drawn and the case is carefully removed from the back of the closet so as not to scratch it. Then, slowly, with the ferverance of a fine cork sniffer, the latches are unleashed and the lid is slowly opened filling the area with the sweet aroma of polishing compound that lasts for years and years if you're careful NOT to leave the case open or keep the guitar outside the case for too long.

The instrument is gazed upon for a long moment and their eyes become moist as it is removed from it's coffin wafting the scent higher into the room. Everything starts spinning and the senses go on overload when the first chord is struck, lightly mind you, because t'would be a travesty to mark the finish. They might strap it on, stand in front of the mirror like a woman and strike a few "on stage" poses tossing the instrument to and fro. (carefully of course) And then, before the first bead of sweat can sully the finish, the instrument is returned to it's case where it will reside until the owner is struck by the next flight of whimsy to gaze upon his beloved Ric.

After that, he moves over to the computer, lights a cigarette and inhales deeply then blowing out a long, satisfying whoosh of smoke. It was good for him too, and he is now overwhelmed to share the experience with other fanatics on the internet.

You mean other people do this too?? :mrgreen:

Well, we all have different experiences, that's for sure. As a gigging player of 30 years, I can count on one hand, the number of Rics I've actually seen in public. I have gigged and jammed with folks in 25 states and only once have I ever seen anyone bring a Ric to a jam. He lives in PA and is a great guy who actually does gig his Ric.

I'm just a little miffy sometimes because I called RIC to try and have a custom 360 built with an adult size neck. The guy on the phone actually laughed at me and asked if I was someone famous because, if I wasn't, there's no way they would be taking a custom order from me. That was pretty rude. He didn't have to be a jerk about it.

Then I buy a 360 and it's a complete ergonomic disaster for someone who needs to cover a variety of sounds and change up that sound on the fly during a gig. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many dials to deal with. Now, I know that RIC sells every single one they make, but so did the guy who marketed "The Pet Rock." These guitars are suitable for collectors of beautiful things but, for players who need to do a job, they fall well short of the mark. (IMO)

It just goes to show that there really is a market for everything. I mean, who actually takes their "Ultimate Off-road Vehicle" Hummer, off road? In these parts, they're owned by people with money to burn who drop their kids at soccer practice and then run right over to the car wash. Then they go home, put on their silk pajamas and, well, you know the rest. :lol:

Now, I know that RIC sells every single one they make, but so did the guy who marketed "The Pet Rock."


I have no idea why I'm stepping into this flame war, but, dude, you have a axe to grind, eh?

1. I'm pretty sure there were some pet rocks left over when that dude filed chapter 11

2. You can't actually be claiming that the entire body of Rickenbackers is comparable in quality and or influence to the pet rock

3. Do you think Fender would actually build you a one off? I'm not being (completely) facetious, do you actually expect this is something they would do for you?

4. Here are a couple of gigging musicians using Rics:

KA57Pafq_NU

Damn, that is a great tune. I loved that band back then...

I liked that era of REM too. Scary how fast 25 years goes by.

Everyone has a bête noire (French for "black beast" meaning pet peeve), now we know what Telenator's is!!!

:mrgreen:

Cheers, Tim

ps- Hey Dave, should we suggest he put a Dark Star pickup in a Ricky? :twisted:

Still, I don't think it's surprising that a company that is backordered by 1-3 years, depending on what you order from them, would laugh at a proposal for a custom order.

Still, I don't think it's surprising that a company that is backordered by 1-3 years, depending on what you order from them, would laugh at a proposal for a custom order.

I didn't know they were back ordered when I called. I was just a guy who wanted to buy a guitar with a custom feature. Many other guitar companies will do this. You pay them. They do it. No big deal.

It wouldn't have even mattered if he stated "we're back ordered and unfortunately cannot take any special orders." A guy can live with a professional response like that. But for that smug idiot to laugh and then go on about not getting a custom feature unless I was famous, is breach of customer service etiquette.

For a solid year I tried to get along with my 360 and as beautiful a guitar as it was, it just didn't deliver the goods. So I built my own and shared the progress much the same as we share the progress of our Strat and Tele project guitars. The backlash from that was pretty interesting as well and totally unexpected.

There's no flame war here. I thought we were just having a spirited discussion and expressing opinions. As per usual, we all have different personal experiences. That's my side of the coin anyway. :mrgreen:

Everyone has a bête noire (French for "black beast" meaning pet peeve), now we know what Telenator's is!!!

:mrgreen:

Cheers, Tim

ps- Hey Dave, should we suggest he put a Dark Star pickup in a Ricky? :twisted:

Yeah, that's the ticket. Route that sucker out! :lol:

I don't care for the tone of wide range pickups in general, but really I have no problem with Dark Stars. It's just that some supporters tend to get carried away. They're not the be-all and end-all replacement for all other pickups.

So I built my own and shared the progress much the same as we share the progress of our Strat and Tele project guitars. The backlash from that was pretty interesting as well and totally unexpected.

I didn't see what you wrote but the backlash doesn't surprise me at all.


There's no flame war here. I thought we were just having a spirited discussion and expressing opinions. As per usual, we all have different personal experiences. That's my side of the coin anyway. :mrgreen:

Agreed. It's been an interesting thread. No flaming, just different views.

There's no flame war here. I thought we were just having a spirited discussion and expressing opinions. As per usual, we all have different personal experiences. That's my side of the coin anyway. :mrgreen:

Yeah, you're right. Poor choice of words on my part.

TDPRI is so cool because we can discuss this stuff without all the hate. You guys rock!

TDPRI is so cool because we can discuss this stuff without all the hate. You guys rock!

Agreed. On some other sites, the faithful are so quick to shout down any dissent that it's almost pavlovian.

...and, of course, we're ESPECIALLY cool here in the Bass forum!

:wink:

Cheers, Tim

The Bass Forum is where you get the "low down," "the bottom line," "the deep discussions," "where you get to the thick of it."

..And do a little thumping.:mrgreen:

I have no idea why I'm stepping into this flame war, but, dude, you have a axe to grind, eh?

1. I'm pretty sure there were some pet rocks left over when that dude filed chapter 11

2. You can't actually be claiming that the entire body of Rickenbackers is comparable in quality and or influence to the pet rock

3. Do you think Fender would actually build you a one off? I'm not being (completely) facetious, do you actually expect this is something they would do for you?

4. Here are a couple of gigging musicians using Rics:

KA57Pafq_NU

Damn, that is a great tune. I loved that band back then...


Actually Fender would build you a custom ordered guitar if you have the money for it. Or you can have one put together from parts. I have never seen a Rickenbacker put togther from parts like a Partscaster. I also havent seen a Rickenbbacker on stage unless it was a name act.

TDPRI is so cool because we can discuss this stuff without all the hate. You guys rock!

I hate that ... 'cause I so don't rock - I kinda blues ... only kidding ...

I'm amazed that a post that started with 'Why some many Ric's on the Bay?' got over 100 posts though ...

After having a Ric back in the 70's and scrambling back to P Basses soon thereafter .. the only Ric I've seen in years that get's me is the one from the old pit that had dual Dark Star's in it. Maybe a Laredo ? It was un-ornamented red, no binding... and it looked really mean ... mine back in the 70's was a wonderful sculpture - with a rubber neck. I understand that is a real rarity. Darn I coulda been on EBay with it as Vintage! AND Rare!

After having a Ric back in the 70's and scrambling back to P Basses soon thereafter .. the only Ric I've seen in years that get's me is the one from the old pit that had dual Dark Star's in it. Maybe a Laredo ? It was un-ornamented red, no binding... and it looked really mean ...

Are you thinking of Norris a/k/a Hillsidebass? Pretty sure he bought someone else's 4004 Laredo and had Dark Stars installed. Then he had it up for sale although I don't know if he ever did sell it.

I love all the response this tread has generated.
So here's #106 :
Can you name other marque bass players who changed
from a Ricky to a Fender ?
I think both Geddy Lee and Mike Mills play their Fenders
more than their Ricky's live.

Are you thinking of Norris a/k/a Hillsidebass? Pretty sure he bought someone else's 4004 Laredo and had Dark Stars installed. Then he had it up for sale although I don't know if he ever did sell it.

Could be. Norris has shown some sweet ones over the years. I haven't seen him around since the DP days.