Recording amp Vs Live amp

So, Reverbb's rate this amp thread (which was excellent, BTW) sorta got me thinking.

Most of us are familiar with the phenomenon where an amp:

A. sounds great by itself, but doesn't sit so well in the mix with a live band, even when relative volumes and EQ are appropriate.

Or

B. An amp that sounds perfect at a gig, but a little lacking when played by itself using the same settings.

I'm just thinking about this WRT recording. For the purposes of this thread, assume that the guitar part you're recording is recorded by itself as it's own track (I might as well admit now that I'm clueless about recording), and the instrumentation is the same as the band's live setup.

Generally speaking, would you expect the same kind of thing to occur in a recording setting as we see in A and B above? Or does the separation provided by the studio environment mitigate some of those concerns?

I doubt that this question really has an "Answer", but I'm intertested in what some of you big recorders/ amp heads think...

Well I think you summed it up already. There are some amps that are excellent for recording and others that just sound terrific in the studio. I must say that, every studio I have recorded in has been thrilled with the sounds from my Rivera Chubster 40. I am also very pleased with the sounds it makes in a live setting.

Little weasey amps like Champs and Princetons are great for recording but you won't catch me gigging with one. I know some people do and swear by it, by I just don't like the boxey little sound they make in a live setting. They do however sound HUGE in the studio.

Modelling amps tend to sound really good in the studio too.

The basic difference here is "dynmamic compression."

A live band is not compressed at all, therefore different sounds, dynamics and tones are required to make a good overall sound.

In the studio, everything is heavily compressed and controlled to the point where it becones a lot easier to make a wider variety of sounds work well within the context of the song.

But this brings up another concern. Which sound is actually the most appropriate for the song. Decisions like this can make or break a potentially great song!

I've always wondered about this topic too. I don'y have the answers. So far in my life the best amp I've ever recorded clean with was an 80 watt Bogner Shiva EL34 amp. And like everyone else, my inclinations have always been to record with small studio amps. I'm not sure what goes into it all after thye Bogner blew away what I thought was conventional knowledge.

But then looking back there have been good recordings of amp larger than champs and princetons too over the decades. Wasn't Dark Side of The Moon all done with a Twin Reverb? Thought thats what I read in a Gilmour interview. He said that and a Gallien-Kreuger.

I think it might be mic placement more than anything. I think the Bogner recorded so well because of the sound properties of it's 1x12 cabinet, which could impersonate a 4x12 pretty well, never heard any 1x12 like it, very unique with sound chambers and stuff.

I think maybe the answer to good recording isn't in the amp at all as compared to the effects and techniques one uses. Thats probably why Line 6's record well. You don't have to always have organic, natural speaker break-up to record well. Maybe to sound good live, or at home yes, but not recording.

You really hit on the very thing that was at the heart of my "Just Get Tired" thread. I bought a Peavey Windsor. Alone at home in my office that amp sounded so nice. I recorded some tracks on my BOSS dig rec that got some rave reviews on the Jam Sessions forum.

I had that amp since, March maybe, and didn't start playing with it live until the first or second week of June. When I heard a playback of the live sound, it was bad. I didn't buy for recording so something had to change.

I bought a Vox Ad50VTX after fiddling with it for about 2 hours. I'm gonna get my money's worth out of the 30 day return policy. From my initial impressions, which I've learned to NOT count on, the Peavey Windsor and even the EVJr might need a new home.

I'll be playing Friday night and Sunday morning so I should be closer to a decision. Our bass player at Church is a fireman and they have a classic rock band and they "fired" their lead guitarist. He asked me Sunday if I would fill in for a 4th of July gig, so we'll see how these amps play out.

So, Reverbb's rate this amp thread (which was excellent, BTW) sorta got me thinking.

Most of us are familiar with the phenomenon where an amp:

A. sounds great by itself, but doesn't sit so well in the mix with a live band, even when relative volumes and EQ are appropriate.

Or

B. An amp that sounds perfect at a gig, but a little lacking when played by itself using the same settings.

I'm just thinking about this WRT recording. For the purposes of this thread, assume that the guitar part you're recording is recorded by itself as it's own track (I might as well admit now that I'm clueless about recording), and the instrumentation is the same as the band's live setup.

Generally speaking, would you expect the same kind of thing to occur in a recording setting as we see in A and B above? Or does the separation provided by the studio environment mitigate some of those concerns?

I doubt that this question really has an "Answer", but I'm intertested in what some of you big recorders/ amp heads think...

In a recording you are listening to your guitar coming out of your stereos speakers or (ideally) out of refence monitors. You are also hearing the room.

In a live/band situation you are hearing your guitar coming out of your speaker cab in a different room.

Live you probably are standing some good distance to the amp/speaker and probably not on ear level (I hope). Studio reference monitors are usually very close to you and on ear level.

My point is that the room, the speakers and the overall context have much more to do with what you hear than the amp.

A few general rules of thumb:
- smaller amps/speakers record better and bigger amps/speakers sound better live
- nowadays one records pretty dry and adds "room", e.g. reverbs later
- some people like to use two mic's, one right on the speaker and another mic offset to capture the "room" - you would have to be careful with phasing then
- an amp tone that sounds great by itself, usually needs to be adjusted to be perceived the same in a situation where other frequencies from other instruments are added to the overall sound. Usually you'd need more high end or presence
- volume makes a difference both on how your ear hears things and how much e.g. the tubes and the speakers are pushed
- the mic used and the reference monitors used can make a huge difference

Having said all this, a lot also depends on the type of music and the instrumentation used. High gain tones are less dynamic than e.g. crunch tones and require a somewhat different approach.

It is also quite common for phase cancellations to cut out certain frequencies. E.g. your guitar sounds one way, and suddenly when e.g. the bass is added it sounds differently. E.g. some people go through great pains to tune a bass drum towards the bass player etc.

My live amps are my recording amps. On the record we released a couple months ago, I used my Deluxe for most (but not all) solos, and my Super for cleans.

I've gigged with a Champ and it sounded great but it was just maxed and dynamics weren't really possible. Never again with a full band, it'll be the Deluxe or the Super.

Wallpaper gigs, I can use the Champ effectively.

Generally speaking, would you expect the same kind of thing to occur in a recording setting as we see in A and B above? Or does the separation provided by the studio environment mitigate some of those concerns?


There are many variables (Mic placement, mic, room, signal chain, etc etc.) in getting a good recorded guitar sound. The amp is just one of them. Any amp can potentially work, if it sounds halfway decent.

Getting the playback to sound like the amp in the room is not easy. Maybe not really even possible. The important thing is to make the playback sound good, and fit with the recording.

I think it's generally easier to record an amp better at lower volumes. That's why small amps (Princetons etc.) are popular to record.

Why? Are princetons and the like the only amps with volumes dials that go down to 1?

Getting the playback to sound like the amp in the room is not easy. Maybe not really even possible. The important thing is to make the playback sound good, and fit with the recording.



This is why I really hate sound clips on pickup/amp/guitar websites. Amp taste test clips are frustrating as well.

Expect to NEVER capture the exact sound you hear in the room when you record it.

I generally do one thing to beaf up my tracks - double track with a cleaner amp under the dirty amp (and sometimes even an acoustic guitar) - BUT I am in a hard rock band. A lot of folks close mic, then use condensers and distance mic to "capture the room" (a double track in one take).

For my non-band projects it takes creativity in the recording process to get sounds that you have in your head. Putting mics down long hallways, using strange amps/speakers/pickups; single, double, triple tracking. I've even used grungy old strings and severely maladjusted my pickups.

I heard Mutt Lange played the entire "Back In Black" album on big speakers in a large room and miced the other end for a more live reverb...

In any case, a loud amp (for whatever reasons) sounds incredible and it's impossible to recreate the exact sound/feeling 100%.

Why? Are princetons and the like the only amps with volumes dials that go down to 1?

No, but when it's cranked to '11' it's still at a manageable level, if i take my Boogie MKII in the studio and flip the 100W switch and crank it i will probably crack the glass between the studio and control room :shock: , by the same token if i turn it down to '1' it's not going to be that dynamic.
I guess you get a better tone from your amp when it is being 'driven' a little.

Having preached all that, i keep my stage amps for stage and 99% of the time record with a PodII but always give the producer the choice of what he wants to work with.
The most important link in the chain without a doubt is the engineer !!!!, left to our own devices most guitar players would wreck the mix with what they think is a 'great' guitar tone, a good engineer hears the 'whole' mix and know where to place your guitar in the picture, heard in isolation it might sound awful but it's 'in the mix' where it counts.

I've had good results with both sized amps in either setting. It's really all about serving the song. Usually I'll take a Princeton AND a '66 Bassman with a 1X12 or a 2X12 cab to either situation these days. I play pretty organically, usually I'll give the room and the mix a listen and then apply via the sound system whatever touch of sweetening my guitar may need to sit well in the mix. It's really nice to play with folks who have a good sense of dynamics and blend!

Why? Are princetons and the like the only amps with volumes dials that go down to 1?

No. Amps seem to take on a richer sound when they reach a certain level on the volume control. Even for a 'clean sound'.

A twin at 1 and a Princeton at 4 may be a similar volume, side by side. The Princeton at 4 may sound richer in front of a mic because it is running at a higher level, pushing the tubes harder.

i keep my stage amps for stage and 99% of the time record with a PodII but always give the producer the choice of what he wants to work with.

I like recording guitar direct (thru amp sims, with an additional dry direct track for options later) too- it's more like 'what you hear is what you get' as opposed to recording an amp with a mic and all the variables.

The best of both worlds (IMO) is to use 'reamping' techniques described in a previous thread ...Here. (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/recording-progress/66169-reamping-guitar-tracks.html)

i use the same amps in "real" studios as i use live, but generally have to tweak the tone settings (much less bass, for instance). but in my home studio, i use a POD because my space is so small, by the time i get an amp up to the sweet spot (even a 5E3), there's so much din in the room i can't hear the playback well enough, even with 'phones.

I generally do one thing to beaf up my tracks - double track with a cleaner amp under the dirty amp (and sometimes even an acoustic guitar) -

The acoustic thing is a common Stones/Keef trick.

DickensCPA makes a good observation about "Just get tired".

Last night, I tried to dial in the Orange to that sound that I had recorded. The majority of the responses seemed to like the sound of the Rocker 30 in my test (first amp sample). The recorded sample sounded thin and not much bottom. But that is actually a great sound for mixing control in the context of a song. However, I could not get the amp to sound anything like the recording in the ambient room (at least not to my perception). It actually sounded fairly lame. It is likely that it will sound great with a band mix. I have used that amp once at rehearsal and it did come through just fine (unlike the Dr Z in the same setting).

There are a huge amount of variables involved with sound and guitar amps. The room shape, your proximity to the speaker, the dialed settings, how loud other players, the noise floor levels, quality of the line voltage, personal ear fatigue, etc. It has been mentioned a multitude of times on other threads that from day to day, venue to venue, that your amp will constantly sound different.

The bottom line is, that you should buy/play what you can afford that sounds good to you at some point. If a month down the road the amp does not sound so good, you should not make a hasty decission about making a change. It could be just one of the aforementioned variables at play.

BTW, I tried to obtain a 'clean' sound from several of the same amps last night. The 50W Marshall came through the cleanest, but had an odd scooped sound that is the hallmark of the G12M-25 a w/Marshall. The biggest surprise was how good the Dr Z sounded when pushed at a clean setting. It means that amp is misapplied at trying to get the crunchy sound and better suited for Telecaster cleans. But it still had an edge to it - not nearly as clean as a Fender 50~100W clean. I also realized that I suck at playing chicken pickin' licks. That's why I did crunchy-overdrive more.