Verifying prior to purchase SWR....

Gents,

Our little classic country/western swing band is about to replace our bass amp. We've been using an ancient, but cool, but getting finicky, Traynor amp on some Peavey 2X10 speakers...

The bass player has left it to me to pick out the 'new' amp... he loves 2X10 and does not want a 15" solution... I'd just as soon go combo...

I'm thinking that the SWR workingman 2X10 combo would be a good solution. We typically play gigs for between 50-400 people. Most of them are the 50-200 range but some festival type things are pretty large. We don't play super loud, but I want enough headroom that we don't start having the Larry Graham fuzzing...

Your input, as always, is appreciated.

The current SWR Workingpro 2x10 is like $900, and while I think it's probably a good amp, it's kinda steep. AFAIK, they didn't make a 2x10 combo in the Workingman's series. If you wanted to go that way, the 200 watt head (only available used now) with a 2x10 cab is as close as you'll get.

Another option might be a Genz Benz ML 200 combo (http://cgi.ebay.com/Genz-Benz-ML-200-210T-Bass-Amp-Combo-NEW-Reduced-Bid_W0QQitemZ310060336680QQihZ021QQcategoryZ64397Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem), I had one and it was a pretty damn good 200-watt amp. Note that they're also discontinued, but this guy on eBay bought the remaining stock and is blowing them out...

If you're happy with the Peavey speakers you're using now, maybe just get a good head. Those Gallien Kruger 700RB-II (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/GallienKrueger-700RBII-Bass-Head?sku=482587) amps get high marks around here...

Cheers, Tim

The GK are real good but can get expensive. The GBs are great. I got an Ashdown, it was a blem, $339 shipped. 300 watts (I used 100 watt head for 18 years) and 210s. I like it ok but normal price I think is about $800. I owuld not have paid that for it. I'd get a GK at that point. I have an SWR that I had to get when some drunk chick bass player sat in and blew my Yamaha cabinet when i was working and I had to get something. I do not like SWR. I may be the only one. I had to get something and thought they were the hot thing. To me, and I play really bright, these just go CLANK. Not tinny, not thin, not bright, just CLANK. I've hated mine since about the 3rd note I hit with it. But i was stuck in a small town and had to have something to finish out the week. Yuk.

Tim, you're right... the workingpro (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/SWR-WorkingPro-2x10c-260-Watt-2x10-bass-Combo-Amp?sku=481995) is the one I was looking at..

Okay, at the risk of being more of an idiot than I already am... not super happy with the peavey spkrs. The price is not a problem... our baseplayer is 52... I figure we'll play together (and out) for another 10 years... I want an amp that will be sturdy and last that long put to essentially that purpose. We've been making decent money 250-1500 for a few (2-5) of gigs a month, only a couple of band members take the money, the rest throw it in the band kitty. We have the dough... but, is this amp enough to get it done or should I be looking amp and head separately?

I just want a good, solid, great sounding amp that we can load in the trailer and know it will work and sound good and not have to be patched together.

Old Cane, what solution would you recommend?

I've only tried a couple of SWRs, and I don't know ... there's just something about them ... seem ok ... just kind of a little dry ... hard to explain.

I think the Ashdown (or the G/B) is a very good choice but any 2x10 combo bass amp will weigh a ton!

My advice: get a separate head and cab. Much easier to haul around.

Me, I'd go with the GK and a new cab. Avatar makes nice ones.

Cheers, Tim

Thanks! I'll get to shoppin'!

Yeah, I'm with Tim and FB

and a new cab. Avatar makes nice ones.




+1 on Avatar.

Great stuff for the price.

I'll recuse myself from this one, having no exp with 2x10 cabs.

I am, however, a big fan of my Gallien Krueger head (1001RBII). Pricey, though I got mine from GC for 1/2 of list as it was a floor model. Over 100 gigs and counting last two years, nary a hitch.

mud

Some folks like the Ampeg BA210 -- 2x10 and a piezo tweeter. Normally $650, but $500 if you get it at Guitar Center this Saturday.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ashdown-MAG-600H-Bass-Amp-Head-?sku=480429

Wow! that Ashdown head is nice for the price. 575 watts at 4 ohms for $300.00 is a steal, I'd say. But I would like to recommend the Schroeder 1012L as a high-efficiency cab to go with any amp of that wattage and for your purposes. It has the 12" mounted in a front baffle and the 10" mounted in a horn-type baffle (you can order it the other way around, too) and will project and cut through much better than an ordinary 2X10, with lots of low-mid punch, perfect for new country or old. I just bought a 4X10L and can't believe how much louder I am in the mix out front, without PA support, while still being at a sane level next to the drummer. (Bar gigs, you know?) I have no affiliation with Schroeder, other than being a happy user. The stuff is pricey, but it's hand made in California, uses quality drivers, and besides, look how much you will save on the Ashdown!

SWR and Eden heads seem to work best for bassists who have the multi-laminate-hardwood 5- or 6- string basses who do a lot of thumb slapping. If you need something warmer, look elsewhere.

I don't find my Eden WT-400 to be lacking in warmth at all. My SWR Basic Black 1X15 combo is as warm-sounding as my Ampeg B-15 was, although in a solid state power amp way (it does use a 12ax7 in the pre-amp). I think the difference is in the cabinets, not the amps. In fact, Eden is known to have a warmer coloration than a lot of the other modern amps such as Markbass and Genz-Benz. Check the Eden and Talkbass forums for additinal opinions. They don't do the low mid-bass hump of an Ampeg, though. From my own perspective, I play Fender Jazz and MusicMan 4-stringers and my 2X10 Goliath sounds much warmer with Madison Knight speakers in it than it did with the stock Fender-SWR.

Also, and with no dis-respect to the slappers and six-stringers out there, it could also be a difference in playing styles that you're hearing, more than the equipment being used. I like the sound of my Eden head because it lets more of the MusicMan and Fender Jazz bass "growl" to come through. Maybe it is a tad more "hi-fi" but it's definitely still on the warm side of neutral. I plan on buying the WT-550 so I have 2-ohm capability (and some more watts), but the WT-400 sounds great, without using any extreme EQ.

Me, I'd go with the GK and a new cab. Avatar makes nice ones.

Cheers, Tim

once again, i'm with tim.

I say try out the SWR. I just decided that my next rig will be an SWR 750X with a Megoliath cab. No tone complaints

okay, I found a GK 700RBII for 300.00 I'm going to look at it in the next day or two (it is a drive)... I think this is a decent price from what I've seen.

Thanks! I'll get to shoppin'!
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The GK is a good choice. Real well built and great sounding. One of my rig combinations is an Avatar 2x10 neo and the GK. A good servicable rig. RUmor is that Avatar is going to start offerring Celestion as an upgrade in their bass cab's. You might want to talk with Dave over there about that.

You should be aware that Avatar has offerred the 2x10 in a few different versions. Me - I'd buy a new one and be sure that you get the latest generation drivers - or the Celestions depending on that conversation with Dave. The latest gen neo 10's and 12's are significantly better than the earliers ones. More rugged, more solid low's and in general better sounding.

I would suggest that you guys audition some cab's based on 12's and maybe look up market as well - If you can swing the dough ...

The Epifani 3x10 at about a grand is spectacular... The Epifani UL-112 is a great cab. A pair is not cheap but these are significantly better sounding cab's that what you get in the lower end. Nearly anything from Bag End is drool worthy. Last I knew, Bag End doesn't do neo so there is a weight penalty but - Bag End is built to touring standards as opposed to weekend warrior standards. You want it for the long haul - well, Bag End is built that way. There is other good stuff out there. Those are just some of the pieces I would consider.

Eden not warm ? You're reading their ad's, looking at their endorsers - not listening to the amps. I've had a WT-400 - which I liked a lot and it was super warm. Not quite enough power - I am a big believe in having way more power on tap - that way the amp get's to loaf and run cool at gig volume ... I also had their Navigator Pre amp in my rack rig and that is a spectacular pre. not cold or sterile a bit. Eden is great stuff and very well built.

As it comes to practicing what I preach. My drag it down to the bar rig is the GK 1001 RB II on 1 or 2 Bag End 1x15 compact cab's or the GK on an Avatar 2x10. The 2x10 with or without a home brew 1x15. Cab selection would depend on the room.

Eden not warm ? You're reading their ad's, looking at their endorsers - not listening to the amps.

You are correct, I haven't played through one and was jumping to conclusions based on all the ones I've heard on stage over the past decade that I've been working as the sound tech for a live music venue. 100% of the time that I've heard Eden amps, they've been with players who do the "modern bass" sound. Never once have I heard a "P-Bass into an SVT" type tone out of an Eden rig. I'll take your word that it's down to the players, not the gear.



How's the efficiency on the Bag End cabinets? I was under the impression that it takes a bit of juice to push them?

For a different take on the Eden sound, see if you can find the '05 Austin City Limit's Concert dvd. The guy playing behind John Prine is using a WT head and what looks to be a Jerry Jones - Dave Jacques maybe ? He rips and it will definately show you another side of Eden.

You're also correct in that they can do the sterile pristine slap 'n pop thing - it's just not the only thing ... depending on how you work the controls they can get downright sloppy in the low end.

As for the P-Bass into an SVT - well there isn't much else that will actually do that. I gigged an SVT & 'fridge with a P-Bass back in the 70's. It's like getting kicked in the back with a soccer ball - but louder :mrgreen:

I don't have roadies today and I no longer own a share of a 24' truck. I've passed on my rock star aspirations so that rig is a closed chapter ... the weekend warrior in me appreciates the flexibility of the GK, but the rocker that remains dig's a Traynor YBA-200. That's what I drive the 1x15 & 2x10 rig with if I'm looking to rock. 200 watts and 45 lbs vs 300 watts (and much better transformers) and 90 lbs for the old 'peg ... I can still dig the hot-bottles thing. and this one I can actually move by myself! Now all I need is a rock 'n roll gig to use it with...

Bag End efficiency - depends on the model. The deep 2x10's I used to run were not super efficient. I gave a pair of them just under 500 watts and never felt a lack of headroom with that setup. ... and I'm generally after punchy and clean. The S15-D's I have now - that's the little 16" (or so) cube with a 15 stuffed in it are incredibly efficient. They claim 103 db I think and they might be right.

Part of that is that they have a relatively high F3 so they aren't trying to do much in the basement ... still they take EQ well and can do a nice round bass tone. High's, without tweeter are very D-140 like. Volume is way beyond that though. Even though the F3 is high (I'm guessing 65 ?) They handle the low B (Lakland 55-01 with Nordstrand Big Splits) and they don't blink. As they roll of, the roll off itself is very smooth. No artificial bumps and humps on the way down - the 2x10's were like that as well. I have to say that for their size and their very old school technology - the S-15D's are kind of an enigma wrapped in a riddle - I keep looking for the rig behind the curtain... they just shouldnt be able to do all that ...

I suspect that part of why they sound good to me is due to the roll off. Many, maybe most bass cab's have a large hump in the 60 to 80 or 100 hz area. That makes them sound big, impressive but - it comes at a cost of masking true low end. Without the hump, even though the low's are relatively less present, you hear more of what is there because the hi bass isn't masking them so badly...

In general - the Bag End 2x10, deep with co-ax tweet is one of the 2 best cab's I've owned. It did want some power behind it but just 1 would get to ridiculous volume levels - I ran 2, stacked on end vertically so on a small stage, I could hear that top 10. Otherwise all that noise just blows past my knees ... made me a friend to many sound guys. "OK - you use two cab's so you can play more quietly ... that's odd" - I heard that one more than once ...

My only complaint was - near 70 lb's in a compact 2x10 that's just too much weight to be lugging about.

I ran 2, stacked on end vertically so on a small stage, I could hear that top 10. Otherwise all that noise just blows past my knees ... made me a friend to many sound guys. "OK - you use two cab's so you can play more quietly ... that's odd" - I heard that one more than once ...



That's a problem with a lot of speaker designs, they don't seem to take into account where you're actually going to site the box on stage. Lotta low, compact boxes look good in the brochure and measure well in the anechoic chamber, but unless you grow ears on your heels what are you supposed to do with it? I guess they expect the 2x10 box to always be sitting on top of a single 18? I suppose you could put it on top of its road case...

Mesa makes a 2x12 guitar cab with the same problem. Too wide to put on a chair, too low to put on the floor. Unless it's on a case or on top of a 4x12 cabinet, it's just about useless.

You could tilt it back with a piece of "audio lumber" (4x4 painted black), but then you have to find a place for the head 'cause it would fall off the cabinet.

Amen on directional speakers and the need for ears on the back of knees!

As for Eden amps, Johnny Castle, formerly Bill Kirchen's bassist, now with The Nighthawks, rocks his P-Bass through one, and it sounds perfectly old-school...

I reckon operator intent goes a long ways towards the final sound...

Cheers, Tim

My SWR Basic Black 1X15 combo is as warm-sounding as my Ampeg B-15 was, although in a solid state power amp way (it does use a 12ax7 in the pre-amp). I think the difference is in the cabinets, not the amps.
I currently have nearly a half-ton of SWR pro-series stuff. I tend to agree with you. A Black Beauty or a Basic Black sounds plenty warm enough for anything.

I also have a bunch of Ampeg gear.

A while back someone asked the "Ampeg or SWR?" question on Talkbass and the salient response was that it was easier to get an SWR to sound like an Ampeg than vice-versa. Having both, I'd say that was reasonably true.

I'm certainly not paying Ampeg prices for Vietnamese product, though...ever.

SWR is burdened with some old baggage, such as their idiotic SubWave nonsense they don't want to let go of, but you can leave that junk off.

I just decided that my next rig will be an SWR 750X with a Megoliath cab.
You'll probably remain ambulatory longer with a 750X and two Goliaths, my current "serious" rig.

I hurt just looking at a Megoliath.

Amen on directional speakers and the need for ears on the back of knees!


I got the the point where in very small rooms, I would place my rig on the other side of the drummer. There is one room in particular that is tiny but really fun so you deal... A locals joint in a resort town. Pay sucks but the folks so love you for being real... A great sanity gig. Anyhow, that room is why I bought the Radial Bassbone. As it's unity gain, I'd keep a little in reserve at the amp so I'd have Volume & EQ adjustability at my feet. I could pretty much work it right in with cymbal & drum stands and not have to climb over the kit for a 'bit of mids' or a mid-set volume adjust. Beats the crap out of 'Say Omar, can you turn up the 3rd control from the left, on the bigger of the grey boxes in my rack, that's the one under the rack with all the EQ 's .. no the other grey box, yeah that's it - just one click though ...' That particular conversation is why I dumped my Eden Navigator - too many knobs for either Omar or me ... nice pre otherwise...

Doing that really worked for me as it got me about 8 feet away from the 210 on end and that I could hear - other wise I might as well have just sat on it ...

So basically - anything you can do to get away from your cab - just do it - it works so much better!


I reckon operator intent goes a long ways towards the final sound...

Cheers, Tim
Truer words were never spoken ...