June 22nd, 2008, 11:18 AM
Hi all, I have a Music Man 112RD fifty with an ElectroVoice 12L in it currently but I want to go with an alnico speaker for the even breakup and compression. The Celestion Gold is the tone I'm looking for, but the problem is this amp is an extremely loud 50 watts and I'm not sure a Celestion Gold wil hold up. It's rated a 50 watts as is the MM amp but I think that rating is very conservative on the amp. I think I need at least a 75 watt speaker to hold up in this amp. I see Jensen has a 100 watt Blackbird but I've never heard one. Any recommendations? BTW, I only use this amp when I need the volume, I use an 18 watt Champ II for most of my gigs.
June 22nd, 2008, 12:21 PM
I'd be wary of Jensen's "optimistic" speaker ratings. If the reissue speakers are made anything like the originals, then the ratings are at least double what they should be. 25W for a P8R? Yeah, right! (And that's not even getting into their "musical power" ratings.) :roll:
strat a various
June 22nd, 2008, 01:09 PM
I have that exact same amp, my second 112 RD 50. I sold the EV speaker and replaced it with a Peavey Black Widow.
That amp is so loud, if you intend to run it cranked up without an extension cabinet, it'll blow almost any normal guitar speaker. EV, JBL, Black Widow, maybe an old Altec Lansing or Cerwin-Vega- those are about the only ones I know that can take the punishment. Also, maybe a high wattage Gauss. I blew a 15" JBL D130 with my BF Bassman head pretty easily, and the MM RD50 is at least that powerful.
It wants an 8 ohm speaker, and can run an 8 ohm external speaker. If you like the Celestion (I don't like 'em in open back combos), you could get two, put one in an extension cab and bring it along for loud gigs.
In my opinion, the really beefy speakers tend to sound like P.A. speakers, too hi-fi, too transparent. You could try the Jensen, (I like their Mod line), but I wouldn't turn that MM up too high with any one 12".
If you foresee really loud gigs, think about an 8 ohm cab with 2x12s, like two 16 ohm speakers (Celestion?) in a closed back cab. Just remember it's picky about speaker impedance, unlike most big Fenders.
I have an extension cab with one 15". It drives both speakers to the edge with power to spare, one loud little amp.
June 22nd, 2008, 01:14 PM
Weber Alnico Blue Dog 75 or 100wts...... If it doesn't directly link you there, go to: Speaker > British > and under 12" models look under "Alnico" you'll see Blue Dog. You can choose the ohms, wattage and doping.
FYI: the Weber Alnico Blue Dog is a Celestion blue copy.
June 22nd, 2008, 01:49 PM
I was going to suggest a Celestion Gold or Jensen Jet Blackbird...
If you're fully opening up a 50w amp, I would not want to be in the front row. Vox AC30's run two 15w Blues all the time... so long as you're not diming the amp, you'll probably be OK.
Once overdrive starts happening on the power section, you're exceeding the amp's 50watts. Power ratings are before the onset of clipping/distortion. This is generally why folks recommend speakers that can handle 1.5 or 2 times the amp's power.
If you're cranking that amp, I doubt you'll find an AlNiCo that'll handle it "safely."
June 22nd, 2008, 07:27 PM
Johhny, I'm definitely NOT cranking this amp LOL, it's way to loud and I'm too old for that. I actually like the tone it gets right now especially on the clean channel with the EV. I suppose I'm trying to get a smoother breakup on the limiter channel and maintain the excellent tone it gets right now on the clean side, best of both worlds kind of thing ya know. I normally play this amp at outdoor gigs and works great for that sort of thing. I can always hear myself with this amp no matter what the circumstances and we all know what can happen to your sound when you play outside. I don't like to play loud and try not to use more volume than is called for but sometimes I need more clean than my 18 watt amp can give me in some situations. Strat a various, don't ya just love the clean side of these amps? I've had mine recapped and have some GE blackplates in it and I swear this thing sounds like a mint blackface Deluxereverb on steroids. Delicious tone. Maybe a 100 watt Weber Blue Dog will get me there. Thought about the Red Fang as a cheaper alternative since it will be pushed fairly hard but not maxed.
June 22nd, 2008, 07:37 PM
The Scumnico comes in a 100 watt, that would likely sound better than any of the other 100W alnico alternatives if you want a Celestion Silver type voice. http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/scumnico.html
They come broken in, and Jim Seavall REALLY knows his speakers. Nice guy too.
June 22nd, 2008, 09:21 PM
Wayne beat me to it. You're as quick as Wild Bill Hickok, Wayne LOL!!
June 22nd, 2008, 10:32 PM
I think Fane also makes a high-wattage alnico but you'd have to import from England, I'd think.
I don't know if you are going to achieve what you set out to: those MM amps are hybrids, aren't they? Their tone is pretty much determined by the front end, strong power supply and biggish output trannys, and 'hard loud spank' is what they seem to do. They should be popular with the Brittish upper classes.....
Just putting an alnico speaker in isn't going to change it much IMO.
strat a various
June 23rd, 2008, 04:14 AM
You oughtta dig up the MusicMan message board, can't find the link right now, but Steve Kennedy runs that board and you should be able to Google it up. Those guys know everything about these amps, really nice cats.
I've used these RD50s for thousands of gigs, they are very good amps, but they have a few quirks.
First, the clean channel is perfection, and if you crank it up loud, the 6L6s start to sing like nothing else I've ever played. Unfortunately, the distortion channel depends on a weird volume/gain preamp stage that sounds pretty awful for anything except 60s psychedelia. When I don't want "Fender Clean" or "Really Loud Overdrive", I use a pedal with this amp .. it'll give you a better result than the built in distortion.
A good Alnico speaker will absolutely help you get a warmer, bluesy tone earlier than a ceramic, but you'll have to be careful to not blow the speaker; the best sounding Alnicos are usually the ones that handle the least power.
If you have the presence of mind to not turn the amp up too loud, and you KNOW no one else will, get a good sounding Celestion, or Weber or whatever, and just watch your volume.
You can vary the tone a little by trying different phase inverter tubes, unless yours has a solid state phase inverter. The solid state version is more reliable, but the tube P.I. sounds sweeter. Be sure to use a good high quality tube in that position, it's usually 12AX7 type of tube. If it fails, it could arc and take out components including transformers.
You have a good idea replacing the EV speaker. I did it in both my amps, and both times found better sounding speakers to install- first one put in an old Fender Alnico 12" out of an old Twin. Current amp, I'm using a Black Widow. Weber Chicago would get a real "Fendery" sound, I bet.
Let us know how it turns out.
June 23rd, 2008, 08:38 AM
strat a various, I have that site bookmarked and there is a ton of good info there. There are a couple of guys who mod these amps into serious tone monsters over there and I might go that route also at some point but this is not my #1 amp so it's hard to justify it right now and the mods are about twice what I paid for the amp lol. The gain channel is okay if you don't go past 4 but like you said the clean channel is outstanding and a pedal is the way to go. If your interested check out Ed Goforth and some of his mods to this amp, they really are outstanding. I've also heard that you can put the chip from the old tubescreamers in these to help. the scumnico sounds interesting as far as speakers go, I will have to find some sound samples.
June 24th, 2008, 01:26 AM
Weber Michigan might do it.