So, I'm trying to run my guitar through two amps...

Hey everybody. I've been looking for a heavier, louder sound but I want to use only clean tube amps to get it. I know Neil Young runs his Deluxe into a Marshall stack (and sometimes additional amps) and I thought I would try running my old (early 70s I believe) Ampeg V4 head into my recent Fender Hot Rod Deluxe combo. The problem is I don't know how to do this safely.

Now, the V4 has two ext. amp outputs, and the impedance for these is marked as 10k -ohms. It also has "speaker" and "ext. speaker", and these have an impedance switch for 2, 4, or 8-ohms.

The Deluxe has the two guitar channels as well as a "power amp in" and a "preamp out". From what I've read online, this is an 8-ohm amp. I can give more information on both these amps if it's nescessary.

I have instrument cables and speaker cables from a PA available to me, but I have no idea how to do this without shocking myself, frying my head, or blowing out my Deluxe. I've tried connecting the amps by taking my guitar into channel one of my head and running channel two into my combo but, although there is slightly more overdrive, the maximum volume with both amps cranked is only equivalent to about 2 on the Deluxe alone.

Can any of you guys recommend the best way to do this? Thanks in advance.

Try an ABY box (connections and switching device). Such as: a Morley ABY box, built for delivering a guitar signal to 2 amps and have the amps run separately or together. Use only guitar cables.

I'd stay away from all those amp outputs, ins, outs, speaker outs etc.

Again, I suggest just use an ABY box.

Mik

Clumsy NIece, Welcome to the forum.
WArning: that Ampeg head needs to have some impedance-matching speakers connected to the spkr output if you are gonig to turn the amp on. I am not clear as to whether or not you are running speakers out of it. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding.
To 'daisy chain' the amps together, plug the guitar in to #1 input in one channel of the AMpeg. Run a cable from the #2 input of that same channel to the Fender's input. IF you lift the ground on the connecting cabel between the amps, you will not have a ground loop problem. OR...as Mik suggests, use an ABY pedal that hopefully has a partial ground lift in it to avoid loops. The first method is cheaper, right? Switching is more versatile, though.
Sometimes when running more than one amp, there is a problem of phase mismatch....that is, one amp is running out of phase with the other amp/s. This will result in the soundwaves from the amps canceling themselves out and resulting in a thin and weak sound. REversing the leads on the speaker wiring on one set of speakers will rectify this problem.

what Mik said.

I use a Radial Switchone (http://www.tonebone.com/tb-switchbone.htm)

http://www.tonebone.com/images/switchbone-wedge.jpg

and although I use it primarily to blend the two channels of my Deluxe Reverb, I have run two amps through it - my Deluxe Reverb and an AC30 with fabulous effect!

:grin: Peter

Sometimes when running more than one amp, there is a problem of phase mismatch....that is, one amp is running out of phase with the other amp/s. This will result in the soundwaves from the amps canceling themselves out and resulting in a thin and weak sound. REversing the leads on the speaker wiring on one set of speakers will rectify this problem.

The Switchbone has a phase switch to overcome this potential problem.

Good point though.

:lol: Peter

All of the above ideas are great if you want two amps seeing the same signal playing together...no problem.

But, if you are pursuing the Neil Young tone (huge squishy honking over-the edge freakout wildness), I think you are wanting to capture the full-on *output stage* of the first amp fed into the second amps *input stage*. Clearly it isn't advisible to take a speaker level load & feed that to a instrument level input. You would need to put a load resistor of adequate wattage rating between the two (not sure of the values). You could build it yourself by take the signal right off the speaker output + & - lugs with an additional speaker wire and phone plug ('Pigtail') and run that into a box with a pot and resistor to drop the speaker level down to instrument level.

There are commercial solutions: dummy load, power soak, etc. The H&K Redbox can do this.

Be careful, you can fry things in an instant if it isn't setup properly!

=jason

That Tonebone is the ticket....and $350 USD is quite dear for an experiment or those of us that are 'financially challenged'.
It does it all, though.
Peter, just for grins, have you tried leaving the phase 180 degrees out and using the 'Vibrato' function on that DR? This accentuates the effect.
Potted Meat has the answer if one is loking for pushing one amp...usually a small one...into OD and then amplifying that signal with a big clean amp/PA.
I just couldn't see using that approach with an Ampeg v-4 and an HRD.
Now, push a tweed champ hard and run it on a line out to the Ampeg or the PA and you have something.

Clumsy NIece, Welcome to the forum.
WArning: that Ampeg head needs to have some impedance-matching speakers connected to the spkr output if you are gonig to turn the amp on. I am not clear as to whether or not you are running speakers out of it. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding.
To 'daisy chain' the amps together, plug the guitar in to #1 input in one channel of the AMpeg. Run a cable from the #2 input of that same channel to the Fender's input. IF you lift the ground on the connecting cabel between the amps, you will not have a ground loop problem. OR...as Mik suggests, use an ABY pedal that hopefully has a partial ground lift in it to avoid loops. The first method is cheaper, right? Switching is more versatile, though.
Sometimes when running more than one amp, there is a problem of phase mismatch....that is, one amp is running out of phase with the other amp/s. This will result in the soundwaves from the amps canceling themselves out and resulting in a thin and weak sound. REversing the leads on the speaker wiring on one set of speakers will rectify this problem.

Hey Wally, How do you lift that ground for the connecting cable? I have a Line6 Rotovibe with stereo outs so I use that(its at the end of pedalboard I use for cover gigs) but alot of time I don't need my effects.

Thanks

That Tonebone is the ticket....and $350 USD is quite dear for an experiment or those of us that are 'financially challenged'.
It does it all, though.

You're right but they also do a cheaper, smaller version:

http://www.tonebone.com/images/bigshot-aby-slice.jpg

This one (http://www.tonebone.com/re-bigshot-aby.htm) is really good value but it doesn't have any LEDs and during one gig I got a bit lost with which was on or off!

Our bass player uses this one now to switch between bass and baritone.

Peter, just for grins, have you tried leaving the phase 180 degrees out and using the 'Vibrato' function on that DR? This accentuates the effect.

No I haven't but I'm rehearsing in 1-hours so I'll give it a try! :wink:

:grin: Peter

Ive been using a Framptone from Keeley, has all the switches and lights you need. Solid, tourable.

Hey Wally, How do you lift that ground for the connecting cable? I have a Line6 Rotovibe with stereo outs so I use that(its at the end of pedalboard I use for cover gigs) but alot of time I don't need my effects.

Thanks

Frank, if you are having ground loop problems when using that Line 6 stereo, I am surprised. Usually, stereo out units have taken all of this into consideration.
But, it you are having this problem, try discsonnecting the ground at one end of one of the cables that you use to run from the Line 6 to an amp. That will break the loop. and although it seems odd the ground is still established through the 3-ways from the amps to the wall.

All of the above ideas are great if you want two amps seeing the same signal playing together...no problem.

But, if you are pursuing the Neil Young tone (huge squishy honking over-the edge freakout wildness), I think you are wanting to capture the full-on *output stage* of the first amp fed into the second amps *input stage*. Clearly it isn't advisible to take a speaker level load & feed that to a instrument level input. You would need to put a load resistor of adequate wattage rating between the two (not sure of the values). You could build it yourself by take the signal right off the speaker output + & - lugs with an additional speaker wire and phone plug ('Pigtail') and run that into a box with a pot and resistor to drop the speaker level down to instrument level.

There are commercial solutions: dummy load, power soak, etc. The H&K Redbox can do this.

Be careful, you can fry things in an instant if it isn't setup properly!

=jason

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks to everybody who responded.

And.....the basic secret of that is that the sonics of the first amp are what you are looking for. The second amplifier is just to bring the sonics of the first amp up to venue levels. SO, for instance, Neil Young's basic sound is an overdriven Tweed Deluxe. Every other amplification of that sound is just to get the volume up to venue level.
I can't see an Ampeg V4 being run through a line out to a HRD and achieving much of that type of thing. A big amp doesn't need a line out, does it....unless you are playing in a stadium to 100,000 people. A HRD doesn't need a line out in a small/mid-sized venue with a sensible band. Just an observation....
Now, to chain these two particular amps together for the tonal complexity of two totally different amps amplifying the same signal, that I can understand.

And.....the basic secret of that is that the sonics of the first amp are what you are looking for. The second amplifier is just to bring the sonics of the first amp up to venue levels. SO, for instance, Neil Young's basic sound is an overdriven Tweed Deluxe. Every other amplification of that sound is just to get the volume up to venue level.
I can't see an Ampeg V4 being run through a line out to a HRD and achieving much of that type of thing. A big amp doesn't need a line out, does it....unless you are playing in a stadium to 100,000 people. A HRD doesn't need a line out in a small/mid-sized venue with a sensible band. Just an observation....
Now, to chain these two particular amps together for the tonal complexity of two totally different amps amplifying the same signal, that I can understand.

I don't know, there's definitely a palpable change in tone when you put that kind of stress on the second amp even at low volumes, and the reason I want to do this is to be able to get more overdrive at lower levels without using boxes or anything besides just stressed tubes.
After reading an interview with Neil's guitar tech last night I tried running the amplified signal from the V4 through ext. speaker out into the Deluxe's input with both at low volume for a short time, and the sound I got was unbelievable. Probably the warmest, fullest overdrive I've ever heard.
I know that with the amps I have now it's not safe to run a signal that powerful through my little combo at high volume or for long periods of time, but if I got another head and cab to chain my V4 to or just did something like what pottedmeat is talking about to bring the signal down just enough that it's not going to blow out my combo, I think this could be pretty amazing.

Someone else's experience should not get in the way of what you want. Experience and amplifier electronics have established the need for the line out. There must be a reason why amp manufacturers provide them on most modern amps.
That said, please proceed. THose aren't my amps, so I don't have any reason to hold you back.
Learning through living....best way.
Again, welcome to the forum....

WARNING:
You can't plug an amplifier/speaker output into any preamp or poweramp input of another amp!

You'll blow it to SMITHEREENS!!

Durham makes the crazy horse for the sound you are looking for.

In the early 80's I played with a guy who ran the speaker output of a SF bassman DIRECT INTO THE INPUT OF A SS VOX. He did it ALL THE TIME. Unbelievably, nothing blew up; a tribute to the robustness of the Fender. The sound, though, was, um, interesting, and not in a good way.

Despite this bizarre counterexample don't do it. You can make a line out with a 10K linear pot, a resistor, and a jack, and use that to run it into the other amp.

steven

Frank, if you are having ground loop problems when using that Line 6 stereo, I am surprised. Usually, stereo out units have taken all of this into consideration.
But, it you are having this problem, try discsonnecting the ground at one end of one of the cables that you use to run from the Line 6 to an amp. That will break the loop. and although it seems odd the ground is still established through the 3-ways from the amps to the wall.

Sorry Wally I wasn't clear...Everything is cool with the Line 6 pedal...Its when I daisy chain the amp that I sometimes run into trouble..Many times I'd like to use no effects and just plug right in to an amp daisy chaned to another..