Pro's Using Amp Modeling?

I get the impression that a growing number of professionals are using amp modeling rather than micing an amp in the recording studio.

Is that true? What do you think of it?

I read something about Johnny Hiland using an amp modeling device now for recording.

really? i think amp modelling is more aimed at the home/project recordist than professionals. i'm sure some pro's use the technology at home, but i'd be surprised if that was their choice when it came time to actually lay tracks.

Without dropping any names, Yes some pro's are using amp modeling in the studio..and some even on stage! You might be surprised discovering how many hits have been made on PODS! I use one for home studio but not on stage...although I could go direct from a PODXT live to the board and most likely get very impressive tones.

i've heard scuttlebutt about modelers being used in some of the hit factories ... as the technology advances, we'll probably hear about more.

in my case, the POD is my only viable alternative. the Woodshed is tiny -- 8 by 15 feet -- so when i mike up an amp at a level where i can get some juice, the din is so loud i can't hear my headphones!

I know several folks who are 'brand names' who use Roger Linn's adrennalinn... you can read about it on his site.

Pete Anderson, on his website, talks about using Line6 products on records...

Arlo uses a modeling amp.

The number of records made using software tools like amp farm is huge... I'll bet a ton of artists don't even know that they are using it.

at home or in a project studio it makes total sense, but i can't imagine being in a pro recording studio with all room treatments, amps, mics etc., and using something that was designed to recreate that environment synthetically. just seems odd.

I have to say it's the PODII for 99% of my studio work now, i will take an amp if asked for but most folk don't.
I think it depends slightly on where you are in the chain, i tend to mostly get calls for overdubs now as opposed to tracking with a bassist, drummer etc, if i was tracking i might just be tempted to use an amp.
A real amp and speakers, well recorded sounds great but then again, so does a well recorded POD !.
I'm in and out much faster and a good engineer can make it sound a whole lot better, faster so everyone is happy really.
Strange thing is i really don't like playing in the control room so when possible will sit in the studio to play, imagining i have an amp no doubt !

I've read a few articles but not many where some sort of modeller has been used in a re-amping situations for some big named productions. Believe the last one I read was about a recent Evanessence production in which some guitar tracks were re-amping either through Waves GTR or Amp Farm. Other guitar tracks were cloned running a modeller in parallel. I might be mistaken about the band but it was a big name.

Also any article you see on indie productions shows pictures of Pod XT rackmounts in the background. I could go back in the mag collection and name at least 15 indie productions who have used Guitar Rig 2, Amplitube or some sort of Pod in the production of a cd. These are indie artist who don't need second jobs. It's real common seeing this in the indie studios unless I'm the victim of clever advertising.

I think Getbent is right in that alot of artists probably don't know the modellers would be used in the production at all.

I think it is more common than you might believe and will become more so. Play through the amp to hear yourself but record the Guitar direct and then find your tone with the software. Everything has to be digital at some point anyways, so why not start early in the process? Remember a lot of the 70's stuff ( yeah disco but Steely Dan too) was DI to the mixing board. Didn't Tom Scholz (Boston for the youngun's) start all this with his "Rockman"?

As far as live, I know Bob Weir uses Line 6 Pod Pro's and I know another small regional band that has two setups- one for real stages and one for small bars-- guess what-- the small bar setup is a 4 space rack for each guitarist with Pod Pro's going into the PA and monitors.

Think about it, a 4 space rack OR a Marshall Head, a 4 x 12 cabinet, and Mics?........

I get the impression that a growing number of professionals are using amp modeling rather than micing an amp in the recording studio.

Is that true? What do you think of it?

I read something about Johnny Hiland using an amp modeling device now for recording.

I'm not.
I'm still sticking with tube amps in a good room, great mics and preamps.

If I could find a modelling solution that gave me the same results, I would use it.

I don't use tube amps, good room, mics and preamps because I WANT to spend loads of money- I use it because it works better than any other option available.

I own a Pod Pro XT with all the option packs, Amp Farm TDM, Waves GTR3 TDM, Sansamp TDM, Guitar Rig, Amplitube and a bunch of other options- I use them from time to time, but really, when it all comes down to quality, nothing comes close to the real deal.

I'd bet that modeling is the rule rather than the exception these days.

A month or two back, I visited the home studio of musician/producer who does a lot of TV soundtrack work (he bought a second home and turned the entire thing into studio/office space). Vintage guitars lined the wall. Not an amp in sight. He uses Guitar Rig 2 with a foot controller.

I saw Bonamassa using a Flextone IIXL a few years back, it sounded so good I found one and traded something for it. It was was too much power though, and sold it due to lack of use. I had no problem with the tone, you might even say.... I loved that freaking thing. ;)

I can't remember which album it was, but Wilco went and bought a whole bunch of vintage gear prior to going into the studio. They laid down a bunch of scratch tracks with Line 6's, then never got around to replacing them with "real" tracks -- the modelled stuff sounded good enough to them! :lol:

I think the heavy stuff sounds pretty good, but I'll be a convert when I hear a convincing emulation of a goosed blackface Fender.

Octonic convinced me to mic a clean amp on a recent project and I'm glad I did.

But for scratch trax modelers are great!

..........but I'll be a convert when I hear a convincing emulation of a goosed blackface Fender.


I'll be a convert for the 'other side' when i see someone accurately spot the difference !

:lol: :lol:

Lemme at it. Now, to be sure, it has to be someone "playing" the amp like blues players do, not some guy playing nice arpeggios. For the latter, for backing trax, for distorted chord parts, I'm suspect it could be indistinguishable.

TeeBird, we have had that argument here many times, it's like trying to catch smoke, there's no way of doing it unless we are at least in the same room, i play you the sound of a Twin, you identify it, i deny it !!, it don't work.
My point was just that i think it's virtually impossible to tell unless you know the session details, if it's a song and/or performance you are enjoying i'm willing to bet you will think it's a well recorded amp you are hearing.

There was a great experiment where hi-fi 'experts' had to choose the best cables they were listening too and none of them could distinguish the difference between ridiculously priced 'hi-end' monster cable and wire coat hangers.
Sad reading (click) (http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/)

In most cases I'm sure you are right, but until I hear a retro blues album that was recorded through a modeler and can't tell the difference, you can post all you like. And not even any blues player; I suspect BB King's smooth tone could be worked up really well through a modeler. But those raw open tones; I don't buy it. Enuff said.

..........but until I hear a retro blues album that was recorded through a modeler and can't tell the difference, you can post all you like.
Enuff said.

Good point, but "how would you know" ? is my point :lol:

Only way round this !!, bring your guitar round my house and we'll go the pub next door !!

Enuff said.

Well, maybe by you.

When people use this term it is usually interpreted as dismissive.

BB has recorded lots of albums with solid state amps... not usually considered tone heaven by most... You have every right and I encourage you to use whatever you want in the studio or in live performance... but to the original question... it IS true that lots of albums/cds are being recorded using modelers whether software or boxes. As to what we think about it... you seem to not think too highly of it... some guys who work in studios use them and find they sound just fine... when everyone has had their say.. that will be when enough has been said... it is just a discussion.. open ended discussion is to be encouraged.

btw, who would be an artist who if they recorded with a modeler... you'd listen?

Come on, it's just my opinion, which I am entitled to; I don't know you from Adam; I'll keep my views until convinced otherwise (and not by someone posting on a forum). Anyone else is free to have a different one be it considered or otherwise.

Edit: If you think I'm trying to be a (euphemism: bad person) you are reading between the lines. Just stating my views.

Absolutely! My opinion is a 'considered' one I guess. I have recorded with both.. I have recordings in twanger central with both. I own tube amps and love them, I own lots of blues records and cds from various eras and I've worked in several studios... my ears are certainly not as good as others etc.. but I listen closely and care about things sounding good... (probably more than Hound Dog Taylor)... I think that if you gave the black face fender sounds in Amp Farm a try, you might be surprised.

All I was saying is that a forum is a good place to listen to lots of opinions and examples... I've tried multiple examples of both... but I am still interested in hearing other ideas.

Ever hear this baby?

http://www.fractalaudio.com/sounds.html

Lots of guys on The Gear Page love Axe-fx.

I was watching a local access music show on the topic of electronic drums. The guest working session drummer said that a top line electronic kit is now a required part of his set offerings.

I can't remember which album it was, but Wilco went and bought a whole bunch of vintage gear prior to going into the studio. They laid down a bunch of scratch tracks with Line 6's, then never got around to replacing them with "real" tracks -- the modelled stuff sounded good enough to them! :lol:

Wow. I find that pretty surprising. Not saying I don't believe it, but I'd love to know more.

AFAIK, Wilco has a huge practice/recording space, with tons of stuff (as seen in the movie about YHF), probably vintage and otherwise.


EDIT: I may have answered my own question this article (http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/wilco-builds-modern/jan-00/6640) describing the Summerteeth sessions, has a little about a Flextone.

In my experience, both as a player in sessions and talking to my comrades ... Since '99 (introduction of POD) and up to the present ...
Modelers, rack stuff and/or a nice OD direct into some good outboard DI's, pres and comps are de riguer for commercials, TV shows and 'most' films. It's faster and eaisier and pretty much now - EXPECTED.
We still like to use amps (ours or the studios gear) for records. And, sometimes of course combine "real" with 'modeler' tones. It's all about finding the right sound for the gig. Sometimes digital is the right sound(?).
As to the aforementioned TV type stuff ... time is money. They want you in and out as expeditiously as possible. A Blackface or Rectifier model on a POD is pretty much "fine" for 30 seconds of background music that has dialog over it.

Also, learning how to use a modeler or a plug-in is paramount to getting a good tone out of it. You can't really "play" them exactly the same way as you would a tube amp - the response is different. Not necessarily worse, just different. Like playing direct in the old days. All those great Motown guitar parts are all direct. Yeah, great studio gear but 'direct' nonetheless. It's all about the song, the player and the part at that point.

Listen to some of Arlos' cuts in 'twanger central'. I think most, if not all are done with a Line 6 amp. Sounds like R&R to me.?

It's all about finding the right sound for the gig. Sometimes digital is the right sound(?).


I agree with this. I have some great modellers and some lousy modellers however, if the preset sounds good in the mix to my ears it doesn't matter if the modeller is great or lousy. It's all about a selection of sounds for me. Arlo's "Oasis" probably turned alot of heads.

It would be interesting to hear how he produced it and I bet you dollars to donuts it was done at a higher bit depth than 16 bit.

I love amplitube 2!!!! Try micing and then the direct sound, its hard to match plus CONSISTENT. I plug straight into my 002.

I just read "Guitar Legends" magazine the the collectors edition one featuring Rush on the front cover.

In an interview with Alex Lifeson concerning gear used on each album he makes reference to "Test for Echo" released in 1996 and says he used a Digitech 2101 mfx unit with a Palmer speaker simulator and also references the used of JCM800 heads, 30th anniversary heads and about 3 or 4 different cabinets.

Reading between the lines it appears he is using the speaker Palmer speaker simulator to give more depth and body to the Digtech 2101 and not using it as a replacement for amp and cabs.

Anyway that is confirmed use of modelling technology by a pro.

I recently read that the Pretenders just recorded an entire album with just Pods, no amps...also that the Doobie Brothers use Pods even ONSTAGE – no amps. I know for a fact that many studio musicians are using Pods exclusively.

Moddeling IS the rule these days for sure.You can spend 10 hours changing cabs/heads/combos,mic'ing speakers in different relation to the speaker,trying this and that, moving stuff around,OR you can plug into a POD or into Amplitube(what I record country stuff with)and be ready to go in 10 minutes. Plus you can EQ it better,and easier.For my Asphalt Valentine stuff I still use my Hot Rod Deville and mic the combo's 10" and also run a Marshall 4-12 and mic one of those too.I have to have the rawness and the "chunk" in rock that I don't need in country.
POD and Amplitube are great and their sounds are really close to having the real gear BUT you have added EQ/gain stages/plus digital effects that you can pan with running it stereo.It's just too easy and it sounds great.
And hell,who needs to pay for 10 extra hours in the studio?

Definitely not a "pro" musician, but I have a homebrew tube amp (12ax7, and all that) and a Berhinger amp modeller pedal. I usually juice up the amp with my Vox treble booster pedal so that it's just beyond the distortion point (i.e., just a little past "clean") and play reasonably sane country or bluegrass style. I could crank it more to get it to all-out distort, but I just don't. Using the same speaker, guitar, and my Behringer through a SS integrated amp (an old Lafeyette, with Mic inputs on front), I can get the same tone. I've recorded clips and later not been able to tell the difference.

The only difference I can tell is if I turn up the Behringer too far, it gets noisy (pretty bad when a digital pedal is noisier than a tube amp:roll:). So I'd have to say that a good bit of the range of the modeller is for me unusable. But from clean to mild tube distortion, my ears were unable to tell any difference.

Admittedly, I don't own any high-dollar Fender or Marshall products, so I can't make that comparison. I own only a Silvertone (which I haven't compared) and my little 1/2 watt "practice" amp. But if the general question is whether a modeller can come close to the real-deal tube "warmth" :roll: and distortion, it seems to me the answer is yes. The pedal I have is supposed to model a Tweed fender and a Marshall. I kind of wonder how it compares, or if it's just good at a sort of generic tube sound.

Like someone said already, I did notice some differences in terms of reaction and range. I.e., differences in how the amp (or amp modeller) responded to changes in guitar volume, pickup selection, etc. But I'm not sure that was in either the amp or the amp-faker's favor. Probably just something to get used to.

Again, just my vote. Others have different ears. :smile:

I caught Donna Summer on Letterman last night while I was flipping channels and her guitarist was using a Vox Tonelab LE...

Wow. I find that pretty surprising. Not saying I don't believe it, but I'd love to know more.

AFAIK, Wilco has a huge practice/recording space, with tons of stuff (as seen in the movie about YHF), probably vintage and otherwise.


EDIT: I may have answered my own question this article (http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/wilco-builds-modern/jan-00/6640) describing the Summerteeth sessions, has a little about a Flextone.

That's the one! I knew it was in one of my old Guitar Player mags, but I didn't get a chance to dig for it.

- Scott

"...it's amazing how much we used the Flextone after having spent $30,000 on old gear." :lol:

I caught Donna Summer on Letterman last night while I was flipping channels and her guitarist was using a Vox Tonelab LE...

Say it ain't so!

"Bad Girl' just ain't "Bad Girl" unless it's played through a Narrow Panel Tweed Deluxe....:wink:

Actually, disco music is one of my(many) guilty pleasures.

Well, every body on this list loves gear, no doubt.
I guess I use my amps in the studio when I am producing tracks for my own use. I have the pleasure of hearing my amps, which when recorded well in a good studio each have their own individual charm.
If I'm recording a TV spot or a demo. Well I guess that anything that gets the track in the can will do and the client doesn't have my "happy memories" of my 66 Vibrolux .
I recently heard a mix of a tune that I recorded in a studio in "town" and I have to say that I enjoyed hearing my amps. I don't think my boss cared one little bit , except to say that it "sounded good".
The last session I did up in Montreal I used my Pritchard amp, all SS. Sounded awesome.
My problem with the pods and etc. Is that they sound Fizzy to me. I would roll off some highs, they sound like recording direct to the board, no matter what settings are used, seems like they would be good if EQ'd well.
I love the Idea of direct to the board for concerts. I want to pickup something for that.
Amp Modeling is here to stay. Another tool. If you can play everything sounds fine.

Say it ain't so!

"Bad Girl' just ain't "Bad Girl" unless it's played through a Narrow Panel Tweed Deluxe....:wink:

Actually, disco music is one of my(many) guilty pleasures.


Actually, the Tone Lab is one of my many guilty pleasures... :cool:

The "Tweed 12" is one of the best sounding models in it, whether it sounds exactly like a real Fender one or not.

Whoever he was he had a really pretty cherry Gibson 345/355.

He wasn't featured in the tune they played, but I'm sure that if he didn't sound right with it, he'd do something else for an amp.

I went to see George Jones in March, a 50th birthday present from my wife, no less! The sparce stage fooled me, I thought the Jones Boys still had to set up their gear. No, they walked out, and the Tele guitar, pedal steel, Bass, Keys and drums all went direct to the board. It was a bit odd, the sound sometimes lacking in fullness, or presence, yet was perfectly acceptable. Non musician audience members did not notice at all. I hung around after the show and spoke to the bass guitarist, and he said that George is well into his seventies, and can't tolerate the stage volumes of acoustic drums and screaming fender amps anymore. I myself use a Roland cube 30 these days, very versatile, and lightweight. It does a pretty good clean Fender Blackface, amongst others. Jimmy in Port Credit.

Do modelers produce more uniform sounds throughout both the frequency range and the loudness range than tube amps? When I started listening to guitar on TV a few years ago, I noticed that it sounded good, but almost too uniformly good, with no drop outs or dead spots in the tone or volume. Is this a function of modelers or just an overzealous engineer?

Do modelers produce more uniform sounds throughout both the frequency range and the loudness range than tube amps? When I started listening to guitar on TV a few years ago, I noticed that it sounded good, but almost too uniformly good, with no drop outs or dead spots in the tone or volume. Is this a function of modelers or just an overzealous engineer?

My guess would be compression, both in the TV signal and the original recording as well as in your receiver.

My Harmon Kardon receiver has different compression settings as does my cable box so there can be *lots* of compresssion happening...

I'm not familiar with modelers other than the Tone Lab but it is definitely possible to dial in some less than perfectly balanced sounds with it if you are not careful. :roll:

One of the hardest things for me in programming mine is to normalize the levels between the different patches.

mike einziger from incubus uses pod's in the studio for final tracks. i read a big long article about how described using no amps, only a pod, for the guitar solo in "sick sad little world" which coincidently is probably the best sounding and most expansive solo he's ever done. go figure.