Trick bridge pins do they really work?

Im seeing Fossilized Mammoth Ivory bridge pins for like $80 for 6 do these actually make any difference??

The guy who does all of Neil Young's guitars is apparently quite the believer in bridge-pin mojo to the extent of using different material bridge pins on different strings or some such.

In my extrememly humble opinion, there's nothing you can accomplish by a bridge-pin change that you couldn't do with a lightweight set of pins and some judiciously applied lead tape. They either have an effect based on weighting down the soundboard or they have no effect at all as I see it.

The super cynic in me says they can't possibly, but I'm sure we'll all quite happily let you try them out, and give us the results.

I bought some for my J-45...due in part to the Alaskana thing....mine were made locally. There was, to my ears a slight improvement in the articulation of the guitar....but hey, they look cool and used to be on the business end of some Pleistoscene walrus. Tusq cant beat that.

Your mileage may vary.

Mark, I've thought about this for a while and my thinking is since the pin-to-saddle string is virtually "nulled" out, I cant see how the pins can have more of an effect than the saddle.

I had the option to get these when I got my 000-28EC at Maury's.

Truth is I don't know and I can't see them having more of an effect than a Telecaster behind the saddle.

Anyone care to debate?

Well, I've installed FWI pins by slacking the strings and replacing one pin at a time on my Merrill, (using the same strings of course) and to my ear, yes I can hear a difference. Is it night and day?, no but you can use different materials, ivory, bone, plastic and wood to get slightly different tones from a good acoustic.

Brass (with pearl inserts - price is right $15 or so) Seems to me that they have raised the output level a bit and it's "brighter". The effect seems more pronounced on G/B/E strings. Look much better than I expected. More mass than stock - easier than lead tape. I kept them.

I think bone is about a good as you'll ever need.

This i know from my Fletcher and Rossing: The vibration of the string is transfered to the top via the saddle & bridge.

For the life of me i can't figure why bridge pins of different material would make any difference at all. That would be like me saying your changing bridge pins on your guitar makes my guitar sound better, but then the moon makes the tide go in and out so who the heck knows? Maybe it has something to do with changing the mass of the bridge and making the top vibrate more? I'd seriously like to know if/how/why this works. Some one get Fletcher or Rossing on the horn and ask (hee hee). Seriously all these fregging guitar magazines and not one of them, with all their add money, can pay a couple physicist to get to the bottom of this? Oh wait... ad money... yeah.... right...

This i know from my Fletcher and Rossing: The vibration of the string is transfered to the top via the saddle & bridge.

For the life of me i can't figure why bridge pins of different material would make any difference at all.

What's holding the string in the bridge (pressing the string to the bridge)? What is the point of contact for the string and bridge? The lowly bridge pin.

In a good fitting bridge/pin system the pin has almost as much contact with the string as the bridge. Only makes sense to me that the pin material is a factor in tone.

But, the bridge stops the string. The string vibrates along its length, which is the distance from nut to bridge, what is fixed beyond the nut and bridge has no effect on the motion of the string. The material of the bridge pin can not affect the motion of the string.

So how can it be that the bridge pin affects a change in sound? Well if you analyze the guitar as a source-filter model (the source is the string, which is filtered and amplified by the body) and you have ruled out the source as the reason for the change in timbre, you need to look at the filter.

Bridge pins effect the change in sound because the alter the characteristics of the resonator. They change the mass of the bridge and change the dynamics of the motion of the top.

That is my theory. It is the only thing that makes sense to me.

What's holding the string in the bridge (pressing the string to the bridge)? What is the point of contact for the string and bridge? The lowly bridge pin.

The bridge is the first and only important point of contact. The bridge stops the string and defines the length of the string that the wave travels on. The energy will run down the string, hit the bridge and head back the other way. This is probably clear and more intuitive if you play a zither or cello, but it works the same for a guitar. If i play a note on my zither and stick some putty on the string past the bridge, it makes 0 change on the sound.

In a good fitting bridge/pin system the pin has almost as much contact with the string as the bridge. Only makes sense to me that the pin material is a factor in tone.

But again the string is stopped once it hits the bridge. Energy is not transfered to the top through the bridge pin. It is transfered to the top via the bridge.

Bridge pins effect the change in sound because the alter the characteristics of the resonator. They change the mass of the bridge and change the dynamics of the motion of the top.

You left out two other effects. Bridge pins affect the player because he expects to get a different sound and they affect the listener because he expects to hear a different sound. And often the player is the listener is the guy who paid for the bridge pins. In that case the sky's the limit!

well, I should never expect that anyone else would accept my findings without trying it for yourself.

if it's a real concern, rather than just speculation, try the test i outlined in my first post. Try it with dissimilar materials, say wood and brass, you'll get a quick education on the importance of bridge pins in the transmission of sound (even if you don't "expect" it).

We've been doing this for a long time, we're above the placebo effect when it comes to mods and tone, we've actually got ears.

But again the string is stopped once it hits the bridge. Energy is not transfered to the top through the bridge pin. It is transfered to the top via the bridge.

Not really, the string is stopped when the ball end of the string hits the bridge plate. different bridge plate materials sound unique, everything makes a difference.

Not really, the string is stopped when the ball end of the string hits the bridge plate.

uhm.. no. That is not what i am talking about.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~engs9/images1/book4.jpg

Even though I think we're heading into hocus-pocus land here I may have grokked out what is happening.

Scale length is determined by the saddle to nut length. This means the rest of the string beyond the saddle "should" have no effect.

BUT

Since the string is round, and only the bottom part of the string touches the saddle, I can envision a sound component traveling the rest of the length and either adding to, detracting, or having no effect on overall sound.

Since sound travels through denser material easier, the rest of the string may act like an amp with the right string length (beyond the saddle) and materials used.

I can almost envision a formula for that as well, but having slept through more than my share of antenna theory classes it's not coming to me at the moment.

uhm.. no. That is not what i am talking about.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~engs9/images1/book4.jpg

I know what you write, it's that i disagree. You say the vibration is "stopped at the bridge", someone else says saddle. I'm saying the vibrations travel to the ball end and "how" that last part of the string touches wood and the density of the material that is used to pressure fit the string to the soundboard via da bridge (bridge pin) all shape the tone of an acoustic guitar.

Take the example/analogy of the "Fat Finger", a brass plate made to attach to the headstock on an electric guitar, gave the guitar more sustain and "fattness",... past the nut which in your theory would terminate the vibrations and anything past that would not effect the tone.

Put Grovers on a vintage tele and the guitar sounds different.

Back to the original post,... do fossilized ivory bridge pins improve a guitar $80 worth?

No. But they do look cool.

Take the example/analogy of the "Fat Finger", a brass plate made to attach to the headstock on an electric guitar, gave the guitar more sustain and "fattness",... past the nut which in your theory would terminate the vibrations and anything past that would not effect the tone.


That is not what "my" theory says at all.

I think bridge pins of various material can change the tone just a little.
Over the years, I have made bridge pins from various woods, bone, ivory and brass for people that have asked me to.
Since they are round, I turn them on a metal cutting lathe.
I have found bone to be the hardest to do, bone is weird material, ivory is really nice to work with, and brass cuts like butter.
The last ivory pins I made were from Colt revolver grips that were fire damaged and no longer worth a $1000.
One thing I have encountered on vintage guitars, is often the pinholes in the bridge can be wallered out, so the pins may have to be fit to each hole.
I did make myself a set of brass pins for my little Takamine F312S. Looks like I could of polished the ends a little better, oh well, my best work is always for others.
http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u265/donsmonarch10ee/?action=view&current=telecaster005-1.jpg

Thanks,
Don

dang. nice handy work. hat's off to you.

Thanks kp8. I enjoy making parts for music stuff, the other work can be boring at times.
The first bridge pins I made were for my old Gibson CF100E about 30yrs ago. The reason I made these was, the pin holes were pretty worn. The pins that were in it had taped wrapped around them.
These were fit to each hole, otherwise the bridge holes would have to be reamed to all the same size. Not wanting to risk damage to the guitar or changing what is, I thought it would be best to just make the pins themselves the diameter needed.
I shaped the ends like they are so I could hold them in a spindle collet, I tested them, and then returned them to the machine for further cutting. Now I have a lathe that the chuck can be easily removed with the work in it, test the pin in the hole, and then put back on the lathe still running true, so the traditional round ends are easier to do when the pin is cut from the stock when completed.
Looks like I didnt get the G string pin all the way in last time I changed strings, funny how photos show what I didnt see at the time.
http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u265/donsmonarch10ee/?action=view&current=telecaster006-1.jpg

Plastic, brass and ebony all give my martin guitar a definite tonal change. Brass made it more bright and ebony gave it more punch. Ive always wanted a nice set of ivory or bone pins though.
Unlike and electric guitar which pickups up vibrations of the strings, an acoustic guitar is amplified by the vibrations of the sound board which is in turn affected by everything connected to it. Anyone in here bow hunt? Limbsaver reduce the vibration of the bow and they are placed on the limbs of the bow, not the string. The point Im trying to make here is that any material that can potentially alter or hinder vibration in the sound board can change the tone of an acoustic guitar.

http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u265/donsmonarch10ee/?action=view&current=telecaster006-1.jpg

Those look great! I have always wanted to work with metals. That was smart just making individually size bridge pins. I like the looks of that (even if the G does stick up a little! ha~)