Small Amp, No PA

My new bandleader, who has good judgment (and is also on here, so don't trash him) is wanting to go w/o miking the amps for our performances. (He's the other guitar player). His idea is for each of us to have our amp plus a slave on the other's side. I actually think it sounds like a good idea...we will have control over our sound and won't have to listen through a monitor. The gigs should be small or medium venues.

If I use my small tube amp (homebrew, with no line out) can I mic it and get some kind of power amp? Does anybody run this way? My larger tube amp is also a homebrew and likewise has no line out. Or should I add a line out circuit (which if it comes from the preamp will probably not sound good)? OR...should I get a bigger SS amp?

BTW this band has strong vocals so we'll keep the guitar levels down unlike some bands.

Just interested in ideas and experiences.

Thanks.

I have done many unmic'ed gigs with Deluxe and Vibrolux Reverbs and it was almost always fine. That is the "old school" way things were done for a long, long time.

There are just 2 questions: can the band members hear themselves well enough, and can the audience hear it well enough?

You'll be able to answer the first question quickly enough. The second might require a sympathetic audience member, preferably someone with ears you trust.

You may not even need slave amps/speakers. If the amps are tilted inward a bit and your volume is not too high, you can probably hear one another just fine on small and medium stages.

These days I often mic my amp, but the purpose is only to achieve better dispersion of sound in the room. There is no need for the amp in the monitors, everyone hears it just fine.

Okay, I'll try my 30W amp at the first gigs. As I am the new player, I'm not too concerned with perfect sound right away. I can evolve.

Related question; does an amp stand help dispersion at all? My amps are open back.

The Easiest route would be to add a jack to the speaker of your amp which would then be a parallel jack. From that run a guitar cord to a Passive DI box Hi Z input and from the Low Z output run a microphone cord that has a quarter inch jack on the other end like the old mic cords used to be before Low z inputs got popular. Run this into the hi z input of the slave amp. This works fine and Passive DI boxes are cheap. Behringer makes one as does others Mine is a Peavey. Just make sure it is passive instead of active. The transfomer in these equals things out so they work fine. That is what I would do. OR if your amps you built has a parallel speaker jack your all set just use that into the DI box.

Wow, that sounds great. I do indeed have a passive Behringer direct box. And a parallel speaker out. I may as well set that up in case I ever need line out for any reason.

Thanks.

The Easiest route would be to add a jack to the speaker of your amp which would then be a parallel jack. From that run a guitar cord to a Passive DI box Hi Z input and from the Low Z output run a microphone cord that has a quarter inch jack on the other end like the old mic cords used to be before Low z inputs got popular.

Hmmm... I'd avoid hooking up a guitar cord (shielded) to the speaker out of a tube amp. Guitar cords add capacitance which might cause the amp to oscillate or become unstable.

If you wish to use a DI from the speaker out, use a speaker cable to connect between the amp and the DI. This will work fine and is non-reactive. Because the signals are high and low impedance, noise is not an issue.

Still, a good 30W amp that is off the floor (stand, chair, etc.) will probably do the trick just fine by itself with no slave at all. I'd try that first.

Because the signals are high and low impedance, noise is not an issue.

Ha!

What I meant was "high amplitude and low impedance".

There. Whatever.

Use a Hughes & Kettner Red Box for your line out. It's designed to go between your amp and the internal speaker.

http://http://www.amptone.com/images/redbox.gif

I used a guitar cord and it was fine I figure a guitar cord as because it is sheilded and your sending a signal to an other input as speaker cords are noisy since they are unshielded. Red Box, Behrigher, Peavey, Dod or other passive DI brands they all work the same as long as they are passive.

What amp wattages and audience sizes are we talking about? Indoors or outdoors? Do you need a 100% clean sound, or would a slightly dirty sound be OK.

Just for reference purposes: I regularly use my JTM45 clone (about 35 to 40 Watts at most) with a 1x12" & 1x10" cab indoors in small clubs (100 people at most), without miking, and I have plenty of clean headroom available, no problem for the other band members to hear it!

Yea, that's the question. I gig weekly with a Mesa Blue Angel, 30 watt tube 1;12 combo sitting on a flight case unmiked. Small clubs but still 200 + seats. I do like a pretty loud stage sound though, and the bass player is right beside me, and the keyboard (other side of stage) in is the mains and the monitors.

Another thing. My amp is directly behind my mic, and if I'm not in it you would be surprised how much leaks through.

I don't like my tone coming from 15's and horns. That's why I have a 12" Celestion. So if it's a small club I'll crank the amp and avoid putting it in the mains. Obviously you can't do this at larger venues and have to mic.

It's a never ending mix.

Best of luck.

Murph.

I don't like my tone coming from 15's and horns. That's why I have a 12" Celestion. So if it's a small club I'll crank the amp and avoid putting it in the mains. Obviously you can't do this at larger venues and have to mic.


The good news is that if it is mic'ed, then the sound of your Celestion is being captured and reproduced by the PA. If it is mic'ed well, this should give you "your tone" just bigger and better distributed.

I have played many a night in medium rooms (20 x 75) with 50 - 100 people with a BFDR (with JBL) and had plenty of headroom with no mic. A compressor helps if you like, too.

For me, amp placement is a big part of, and this is often a matter of personal taste. I prefer my amps around "butt level", meaning that an armless folding chair is a dandy "amp stand". That height allows me to hear the amp well but avoids the brutality of the SPL directly in front of the JBL. By getting if off the ground it disperses better and avoids that oversized bass that sometimes happens on the ground.

As to the amp stand question....I use one at every gig, and it helps tremendously in getting the sound I want to my my ears. I'm also in a vocal heavy group, with a busy keyboard player, so guitar is not the main thing, but rather a supporting role. Here's my take...

I'm experimenting between a 30W Peavey Delta Blues and a 5W Gibson GA5. I started out unmic'ed with the Peavey, and while my stage volume was fine, the crowd was having a hard time hearing me as I usually kept it around 3 or 4, not so loud. This let us hear the vocals good and clear. So I mic'ed it up, the stage volume remained the same, and the crowd heard me just fine. I started turning the amp back to me as a monitor, and kinda aimed it across the stage so keys could hear me too. This has been working great!

Then I started using the little Gibby, and now I pretty much do the same thing, but with a much smaller amp. Saves my back on the load in, and it's a fun amp to bring to gigs. For large stages, I'll still use the Peavey for stage volume, but I'm a fan of mic'ing the guitar amp and sending a nice dispersed sound to the crowd. The tone you are hearing from 3-6 feet away is totally lost on the crowd anyway, ya know?

my 2 cents
droo

i am currently using a Blues Jr, dead stock, other than a Peavey EDI between the amp and spkr......it uses a mic cable to run to PA, but so far the EDI has never been used other than for recording.....but it's there if needed..

I turn my amp about 30 degrees toward the other side of the stage.

I used to play through two cabinets with one head, and a cab on either side of the stage. That worked pretty good.

i'm not a big fan of line out for guitar reinforcement ... you lose your speaker sound, a big part of the tone equation. i agree with a coupla others that, if y'all play at reasonable volumes, a slight inward tilt would give the players on the opposite flanks what they need.

Great info from all. Thanks!