Lowest cost 5e3 build possible?

[hamilcaster]

Hey all,
I'm dying to build a Tweed Deluxe but am really trying to save as much money as possible. I see these kits for $400-600 is that the cheapest I can go? Are the kits the best value compared piecing the parts together from different venders (I must also account for shipping from multiple places)? I can be cheap sometimes but I really want to build this and feel good about not buying an existing one that is only slightly more expensive. What do you guys think?

EDIT: I should add that I intend on building my own cab as well. I just looked at guitar center online and saw the price for brand new tweeds: pricey! I guess $600 for a kit isn't too bad, still more money than I have currently :(

[JohnnyCrash]

The most expensive parts of the build are (in order of cost):

Cab (and hardware/tolex).
Power and output transformers.
Speaker.
Tubes.
Capacitors.

What I recommend is keeping your eye on eBay or CraigsList.org for dead amps to perhaps gut and reuse parts. You'll see some folks build guitar amps from old tube PA systems, radios, and other old dead stuff. This is probably the best way to find CHEAP iron (transformers).

Another way to get cheap iron is through this guy:
http://www.musicalpowersupplies.com/index.html

Haven't tried him yet, but sometimes you get lucky and "weird" or even cheap OTs can sound surprisingly good. Some folks have built amps with "crappy" OTs that have sounded better than the same circuit as another guy's with "high end" OTs. Generally, older OTs and the higher end stuff USUALLY sounds better, but might as well try cheap stuff for now and upgrade later.

I do NOT recommend gutting old amps for electrolytic capacitors (filter caps and some cathode bypass caps). Instead, this is one area you should not be cheap on. Get new/fresh caps of decent brand/quality.

Some old guts have usable tubes, but I would stear clear of most preamp tubes as something to rely on... some have gone south or microphonic. Try em if you find em, some sound great, but be prepared to order new preamp tubes.

Chassis can be MacGuyver'ed out of all kinds of things. You might want to invest in a hole punch from harbor freight if you decide to use random metal boxes for chassis. eBay guys sell the SAME punches for much more than Harbor Freight and call them "DIY/Boutique tube chassis punches."

Wire can be obtained cheaply, or from gutted amps.

Resistors can be bought in bulk to have a cheap supply on hand for many amp builds for years to come... even crappy RadioShack ones are fine for most builds.

Gutting dead amps, or simply repairing AND modding similar amps that have died might be the best way to go.

Shipping for many parts from seperate vendors adds up.

[jaydawg]

http://www.stf-electronics.com/

[jh45gun]

What Johnny said. I built my 5e3 out of a Chassis from a Zenith Hifi floor model phonograph. The tubes in it were a 5y3 two 6v6's a 12ax7 and a 6j5. the 6j5 got traded off on a 12ax7 and socket and I took out the octal socket for the 6j5 and replaced it with a 9 pin socket for another 12ax7. I paid 20 dollars for that HiFi. I bought a pre loaded board from Ken at Watts (formerly Turret boards) and the pots I needed and I gutted the chassis except for he heater wireing and transformer wireing and cleaned the tube sockets of the old solder conections. I then mounted the board and wired up the board following the 5e3 Layout available online several different places. I then built a cab for it as it is a head configuration not a combo type. This amp works perfect and sounds great and I figure I have roughly 150 bucks into the whole project. IF you can find some old iron depending on the price you pay for it you should be able to build an amp under two hundred bucks. I am not going to bother posting pics again as I did that recently you can look it up. I am now looking for some more old iron to build a Larger Tweed Clone something on the order of a 5d8 twin or something simular. If you want to build cheap old iron is the way to go. I forgot to add that that price figure was for a head version of course if you do not have a speaker cab already then you would need to add the cost of a speaker. If I remember right you said you were going to build a cab for the amp so that should not be an issue as if you built on a head chassis you could mount it on the bottom of the amp cab and run the pots and jacks to a top plate to still get that look of a 5e3 cab.

[hamilcaster]

I didn't know that transformers from many different applications could be used (phonographs, PA's) but I guess they are all forms of amplifiers. I might look around for some used electronic stores or thrift stores as well as craigslist to find some old electronics. Would I be able to tell if an old transformer is compatible for a Tweed by looking at whatever markings are on it?

To JohnnyCrash, I looked at the transformer site and was a little put off by the cheap prices! I usually associate low transformer prices with cheap imports but the guy seems to be genuine in his attempt to offer quality products cheaply.

I found this on craigslist. Is this the sort of thing you guys would use?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/576558447.html

[11 Gauge]

One of my favorite sources for carcass parts is old 70's bass tube amps - typically Univox/Earth/etc.

I acquired a Univox bass head about 5 years ago that puts out a max B+ of 360VDC - PERFECT for a 5E3. Rectification is a little wierd, but you can use a hardwired Weber Copper Cap to give you 5Y3 simulation.

I will always go for older transformers, even if the spec's for my intended project are off a little.

I almost always go with new electrolytic caps, even if I'm fairly sure that they aren't very old. I just don't like to gamble with this stuff.

I've managed to scavenge quite a few coupling/signal/tone caps with fairly good success, the only exception being bigger caps around .1 uF or so - I've had a few of those leak on me.

Wire is getting expensive. I salvage whatever I can from junk. However, if the wire looks tired, I pass on it. You will want to use stranded for most applications. I personally prefer solid for my heater wires, so that I can position them out of the way of all signal wires.

Even if it sets you back initially, I'd still buy some resistors and caps in bulk - you never know when you'll need another one.

Things that I may reuse after a thorough visual inspection are tubes, switches, sockets, jacks, and pots. But I usually don't expect any miracles. If I'm gutting most of the chassis anyways, I will typically rip out everything, but save the aforementioned stuff, and try it out in my spare time.

[JDO]

yeah, your best bet will be to find something that is busted or an old tube amp that you can rework. but there are other things you can do.

right now ted has a scratch and dent 5e3 chassis in his bargain center for $40.00. he also had pretty good prices on trannies. if you can order most of your resistors and caps from some place like mouser.com and then get your remaining things (such as sockets and fender jewel lamps and such) from another vender you have cut down on shipping costs. it's possible to do some serious shopping and getting things here and there and come out on the cheap. but it'll be a lot more work and man hours on your part. you then have to ask how much your time is worth.

i built my 5e3 by bargain shopping. i think i came out pretty good. but if it were my first amp and i had to do it again, i would probably just get a kit.
---weber has a 5e3 kit for $490.00. i love ted, but in the past some of his parts were on the cheaper side of things to help get you that $490.00 price tag. just something to keep in mind.
---bruce at mission amps has the chassis kit for $380.00 (which is great for you if you're building your own cab). bruce's kits are top notch and he has gone to great links to make sure his kit has top quality parts and is easy to assemble. and he is always there to help you if you get in a pinch (shoot, he even does that for people who haven't bought kits from him).
---stf has a chassis kit for $315.00 but one thing i don't like about it is it only seems to have one volume pot and one input. one of the great things to me about the 5e3 is how wacky the channels act together and how many sounds you can get from those 4 inputs and three knobs.

just write down ever part in something like excel and then start looking for those parts and plugging in the numbers. you'll see if it's worth it or not to you to just get a kit or do put it together yourself.

hope that helps.

[jh45gun]

Most common advice is look for MONO chassis stuff not stereo for building amps though with the stereo console stuff if you can get it for a song it may have parts you can use. Tubes, pots ect. If that console has tubes you can use and you can get it cheap go for it. 50 bucks is high in my opinion but then back then the speakers if in good shape are probably alnico speakers and back then were a general purpose driver what you may find in an amp you may find in a stereo console too. If it is close to you I would look at it and see what tubes it has if it has 6v6's and 12ax7's and a 5y3 in it the PT may be fine for your build then you would just need a Push Pull OT. I would suspect that most OT on stereo stuff is Single Ended and not Push Pull. Still there maybe parts in this that would cost more then the cost of the unit. Might be worth checking into. If it has tubes not used in a 5e3 build then it would not be worth buying but if it does it would be a good start maybe at least for parts.

[maestrovert]

Originally Posted by jaydawg

http://www.stf-electronics.com/

+1

[hamilcaster]

I appreciate everyone's great advice. It's given me a better picture of how to go about doing this. I'm going to pass on that phonograph console because it's not super close to me and I'm sure I will find better ones in the future. I think I will setup a parts list in excel and see what the numbers tell me. I'm very excited to start but I think I need to save a bit more money first. I'm so glad I found this site! Within weeks of coming across it I've purchased a tele copy (SX and it's very good for the money) and I've decided to build an amp, good stuff! Thanks again everyone.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by hamilcaster

I might look around for some used electronic stores or thrift stores as well as craigslist to find some old electronics.

Great idea. There's a place near me called Orvac that used to have a "bargain bin" full of PTs and OTs. A lot of old guys into HAM radio go there.

Generally, if you see a guy with grey hair, a Star Trek shirt, and a pocket protector, you can practically smell transformer laminations somewhere nearby.

I hope they still have bargain trannies...

I wore a shirt that had tubes on it, and the older lady behind the counter said "Tubes! I haven't seen those in decades!" So be carefull to judge a nerd... you may become one soon :)

Originally Posted by hamilcaster

Would I be able to tell if an old transformer is compatible for a Tweed by looking at whatever markings are on it?

Sometimes. Most times not though.

What you may need to look for is voltages for PTs (Power Transformers that supply voltage to the amp), and impedances for OTs (Output or Audio Transformers that feed your speakers the amp's sonic goods).

Voltages generally indicate primary voltage (in USA you're looking for 115 to 120 VAC, or volts AC) and secondary voltages (6.3v heater taps, 5v rectifier taps, and the B+ supply voltage).

Generally a PT looks like this: 115VAC - 300, 0, 300. Which means it'll take your home wall voltage (115 to 120) and convert it to 300 volts on the main secondaries. You can always try to look to see if it has heater taps for tubes and tube rectifiers - the extra wires generally followed a similar coloring scheme, green = 6.3v and yellow = 5v. If it doesn't, you can always get smaller transformers and bolt em onto the chassis to provide you 6.3v or 5v.

The key of salvage is learning how to MacGruber your way around things :)

OTs may indicate primary and secondary impedances. Primary is the plate load and secondary is the speaker loads it can transform them to...

Crap, gotta go... I'll be back or you can PM me with more questions...

[RomanS]

Originally Posted by hamilcaster

I think I will setup a parts list in excel and see what the numbers tell me.

Weber has parts list for their kits in Excel format on their homepage: https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits.htm - you might use those as a starting point, and maybe their layout diagrams and schematics for their kits, too! Be advised, though, that not all of their kits, follow the orignal schematics down to the fine details...

Oh, and Weber does sell quite reasonably priced transformers, too; Hammond also has a line of inexpensive output transformers for the most popular Fender and Marshal amp models.

[Dacious]

There are a number of vendors - Triode Electronics, Weber, Hoffman, Mojo - who sell brand new reasonable quality transformers for power and output. A Deluxe Reverb output, or even a Princeton will work fine for a Tweed Deluxe. One of the ones I built has a NOS '60's open frame unit designed for a console record player - correct windings ratio, sounds great. A Deluxe output tranny sells for $25-30 at a lot of places which is peanuts and the power tranny is available in US domestic or multi-volt for other places.

I would recommend that over trying to bodge an incorrect voltage unit. The other problem with old ones, especially if there is surface rust, is if it has penetrated the laminations it can cause annoying noise like crackling.

My first 5E3 I bent up a 12" square aluminium 16g plate into a flat C, used nibblers to cut out the transformer hole, drilled all the holes with a hand drill and tapered ream and used a secondhand console power tranny which produced exactly the right voltage installed.

I made a plain pine box and covered it with denim. Still runnning more than 5 years later - despite me soldering all the components roughly on a vero board! The speaker is a Japanese 12" 'Voice' alnico slug which I suspect is either a rebadged Jensen P12 or close copy out of a 70's console TV. Other than cadmium plating it looks the same. The cone blew, repaired with tissue and elmers glue!

The expensive bits on a new amp are the flash cabinet and fittings, chromed chassis etc for appearance. Other than the speaker, tubes and trannies, not much else costs more than a few bucks.

The whole amp probably cost me $3-400 including making various changes with the benefit of hindsight. It has been kidnapped by a studio owner and appeared on numerous recordings because it sounds 'just so'.

[marshman]

I built an 18watt 'lite IIb' not too long ago. Not the same as the 5E3, but not all that different, either.

Started with an SS 1x12 combo that had been ignored for a great many years. I'd paid @ $500 for it 17 years ago, but had sold it for $300 a few years later, but it still ended up in my basement. ANYWHO. Got a pre-wired board from ebay @ $45, sockets at a hamfest @ $2 ea, Ceriatone trannies @ $100. Punched the chassis at a buddies woodshop, hogged out the tranny holes, smoothed everything out with a dremel. A couple hours with some windex, armor all and an old rag and the cab looks pretty good. Tubes from AES @ $30 (I've got plenty of oldish, sacrificial 12AX7s for 'burn in', as it were). Figger @ $30 in odds and ends.

Less than $200 in bits, tons of time, trial and error (it's still not quite right, but gettin' there) but it's MINE. You'd still have to find the sacrificial amp, but an old SS 1x12 is not that difficult to find. I don't even feel bad about leaving the Marshall logo on there--it IS a Marshall-style circuit, and it's my name, too.

[littlejohn]

I'd say if you plan to build you own cab, then you should be able to come in well under $400 if you shop around, maybe pick up a 2nd chassis, etc. It's all in what "you" want after you have put time into this. Good Luck...

[Ricky D.]

I would strongly recommend the Mission chassis kit. Very high quality, tons of support. Particularly if you don't have much experience.