Princeton Reverb II or Trademark 60 - which would you choose?

chamberpop · February 2nd, 2008, 12:02 PM

Greetings,

Long-time lurker, recent poster here. Curious as to whom among you may have an opinion on which light-weight 1X12 combo you would prefer:

1.) 1982 Fender Princeton Reverb II

or

2.) New Tech 21 Trademark 60

I know many of you are committed to tubes (and Fenders), and I understand why. On the other hand, those Trademark 60s are really great sounding and consistent. Any feedback appreciated.

Thanks,
c-pop

quackerz · February 2nd, 2008, 12:22 PM

PRII. More or less a Super-Champ with a 12". They're good sounding and pretty flexible and will only go up in value. That Tech 21 thing will probably be worth pennies in 10 years.

endzone · February 2nd, 2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quackerz

PRII. More or less a Super-Champ with a 12". They're good sounding and pretty flexible and will only go up in value. That Tech 21 thing will probably be worth pennies in 10 years.

+1

Tony474 · February 2nd, 2008, 01:57 PM

Fair point about future value, but I have a Trademark 60 and it really is a terrific amp - well-built, superb-sounding and very versatile indeed. Great clean headroom if set appropriately, and with a built-in SansAmp line-out for recording or PA. I predict that it'll still have a reasonable residual value in 10 years' time as in its own field it's a minor classic, because many people consider it about the only solid state amp worth having, or at least one of very few indeed. If it's good enough for Les Paul...

The Princeton, on the other hand, is a Fender tube amp and will quite likely appreciate in value. Plus, of course, it has that muso credibility! As a working amp, however, depending on what kind of music you're playing, at 22 watts, even tube ones, I don't think it will quite match the T60 for volume. Or on the other hand, come to that, tone at low (bedroom-type) volumes. Then, of course, you also need to consider the overall electronic and physical condition of the particular 26-year-old example you're considering.

Bottom line: if it was my choice to make... I'd have both!

tdu · February 2nd, 2008, 02:57 PM

I am in the minority here regarding the TM60. I have one for a few months and just could not get any sounds I liked out of it. Plus I wish they used the same control layout on it as the TM10 and TM30. I found the controls very annoying.

BUT...if you happen to like the tones of the TM60 it's a pretty darn convenient amp. Beyond my issues with the control layout, it's such a nicely built amp. It's a nice size and it's light. If you are lugging it around a lot, it could be a great idea.

The PRII might hold it's value, but if the price on the TM60 is anything like that I paid for mine it probably costs less than half of what the PRII does.

Even with my views on the TM60, if I ever saw a used TM30 I think I would jump on it.

Wally · February 2nd, 2008, 03:01 PM

PRII. OUT of curiousity, what is the price for each amp?
I see that a new Trademark 60 is $580. I would guess that a fair market value used is maybe $250-300...more than I would give. I have sold a PRII with footswitch for more than the cost of that T-60 new, and the fellow is more than happy with the amp.

markinlondon · February 2nd, 2008, 03:32 PM

I've used both and would find this a tough decision. The TM is more flexible but the PRII is one of the last "proper" production Fender amps and hasn't quite got to "vintage" status. It comes down to tone I suppose. FWIW I have a TM60 and passed on the last PRII I had a chance to buy. If I were faced with a choice in the shop it could go either way depending on what I was playing at the time.

Tony474 · February 3rd, 2008, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdu

Even with my views on the TM60, if I ever saw a used TM30 I think I would jump on it.

What made me interested in Tech 21 in the first place was a very favourable "Guitarist" magazine review of the TM30 Limited Edition - the one with the polished wooden cabinet and Weber speaker. On enquiring I found that the review amp was the only one in the country and it had been sold. At that time the "regular" TM30 wasn't available. However, I checked out the Harmony Central reviews on the TM60 and was sufficiently impressed with users' opinions that I bought one sight unseen. To put it mildly, I have not been disappointed.

All the same, I've heard that the TM10 and 30 are slightly different in design from the TM60 and, with their smaller (8" and 10" respectively) speakers, don't sound quite the same either. To be fair, I haven't actually encountered either of them myself, so can't comment from personal experience.

Acephspades · February 3rd, 2008, 05:51 AM

My ex-father-in-law had a PRII and it was a POS! And sounded bad too!!! Because of my experience the only thing that makes them worth anything is the Fender logo and the light bulbs in the back.

Chito · February 4th, 2008, 12:20 PM

The PRIIs are one of the last PTP amplifiers that Fender built. Clean channel is excellent. Drive channel is so-so. Given a choice between a PTP tube amp as opposed to an SS amp, I'd go with the Fender.

NewOldStock · February 4th, 2008, 12:35 PM

I've owned the TM10, TM60, & TM120. I also had a Power Engine 60.

It would only take a split-second to choose the Princeton Reverb over the Tech 21. My old friend has the exact amp. Not even a comparison.

I more or less traded all my Tech stuff for a Deluxe Reverb(Blues Pearl Texas Tornado) here at TDPRI. It was the greatest step-up I'd made in my guitar playing experience since learning how to tune.

Quote:

those Trademark 60s are really great sounding and consistent.

Consistently fair(ok) sounding, I'd say. Sorry.

Tony474 · February 4th, 2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewOldStock

I've owned the TM10, TM60, & TM120. I also had a Power Engine 60.

It would only take a split-second to choose the Princeton Reverb over the Tech 21. My old friend has the exact amp. Not even a comparison.

I more or less traded all my Tech stuff for a Deluxe Reverb(Blues Pearl Texas Tornado) here at TDPRI. It was the greatest step-up I'd made in my guitar playing experience since learning how to tune.

Consistently fair(ok) sounding, I'd say. Sorry.

You're entitled to your opinion and you speak as you find. Fair enough; so do I. I'm entirely happy with my TM60 and I've had (and in one case still have) my fair share of Fender and other tube amps.

In all honesty I've never personally encountered this exact PRII model so I can't address direct comparison, but a good buddy of mine (and fellow TDPRI member) has an SFPR that sounds very nice indeed but no better than the TM60 and without its clean headroom.

One thing that did occur to me - and I'm genuinely asking here because I don't actually know - is that I once had a Rivera-era 2 x 10 Concert that I found disappointing because it had a quite hard, midrangey sound that was not what I would have associated with a typical Fender. Being that the PRII is from the same era, would it be reasonable to expect it to have a not dissimilar tonality to the Concert?

Wally · February 4th, 2008, 06:11 PM

Tony474 wrote "One thing that did occur to me - and I'm genuinely asking here because I don't actually know - is that I once had a Rivera-era 2 x 10 Concert that I found disappointing because it had a quite hard, midrangey sound that was not what I would have associated with a typical Fender. Being that the PRII is from the same era, would it be reasonable to expect it to have a not dissimilar tonality to the Concert?"

They are not from the same 'era' actually. paul Rivera worked for Fender before he started his own amp company. the Rivera that you mentioned has two distinctly different preamps....one is more of a tweed/Marshall thing and the other is more liek a BF Fender. When the topography of the Rivera is understood, they are wonderfully versatile amps with good tones to my ear.
the PRII has one preamp wiwth a cascaded gain situation but only one tone stack. I like both the PRII and the Rivera amps that I have had/heard. YMMV>
I would take either of them over any SS amp that I have had/heard/played through. YMMV...
I do know what the market says about the comparisons. Sometimes the applications of people's money takes an errant course, but that is a rarity. Tubes versus SS is not one of those areas as far as my money and the money in the market is concerned. I know that against the cost of a new T'mark 60 I would prefer to buy a used PRII any day. And...I would have more money the next day/month/year if I had/wanted to sell.
AS you said, ears and opinions differ; so it is good that all of us can get happy with different choices.

markinlondon · February 4th, 2008, 07:52 PM

The Fender Princeton Reverb II and the Fender Concert (not the brown early 60's 4x10 amp) were both Paul Rivera designs and both introduced in 1982. Source: The Fender Amp Book, John Morrish. As I understand it, Rivera used the Concert's features as the basis of his early eponymous designs. I can't make any statement about the design of the Concert's preamp.

I had a "Rivera era" 1x12 Concert for a few years and liked the clean channel but tend to agree with those who say that the overdrive channel got "every sound except a good one".

Tony474 · February 5th, 2008, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Paul Rivera worked for Fender before he started his own amp company...

Just to clear up apparent confusion, it was a Rivera-designed Fender Concert that I was referring to, which is why I thought the PRII might have tonal similarity to it. Of course, my 2 x 10 Concert had the EV speakers, which doubtless had some bearing on the sound.

Tremo · February 5th, 2008, 06:36 AM

A real tube amp versus a SS computer amp? should be a no-brainer.

Tony474 · February 5th, 2008, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tremo

A real tube amp versus a SS computer amp? should be a no-brainer.

Anyone with a brain would know that there's no computers or any digital stuff in a TM60. Just good straight-ahead analogue solid-state circuitry. Which works. Just get your facts straight before tossing away glib hearsay wisecracks and comment again when you know what you're talking about.

Wally · February 5th, 2008, 10:09 AM

The PAul Rivera-designed Fenders do not offer quite the complexity of the Rivera Fandango or the Chris Duarte LTd Ed that I have owned. The two separate preamps in the Riveras leads to more accessible..through switching of presets...tonal variations. The Fender Riveras can achieve very similar sonics, but one has to twist some dials to get there.
the Chris Duarte with the foot pedal controls can yield 10 separate levels of gain without touching a knob...after set up of course. The Fandango yields something like 6 through its pedal. This is with use of the effects loops as a gain stage and understanding of what is going on with the amp topography.
Except for Tremo's use of the 'computer' word, I have to agree with him..but then you know that. I don't like to listen to SS guitar amps or a tube amp that is biased to sound like a SS amp.I like rich harmonic production as compared to flat and sterile SS sounds. IT takes a LOT of bucks to get to a SS amp that even comes close and those amps aren't sitting in retail stores. A used Lab SEries L-5 is the best bargain out there if you want to go SS, and it can get close to tube sonics.
Everyone's ears are their own and their choices are theirs to make themselves happy. Picking and grinning...just do it.

Tony474 · February 5th, 2008, 11:05 AM

Wally, I have to ask you... have you actually played through an actual Tech 21 Trademark 60? I know the Lab Series L-5 has a good rep, though the nearest I got to using one was another LS model many years ago that I checked out but didn't buy. But both the TM60 and the Roland Blues Cube 60 are also considered by umpteen users as being way out ahead of the general run of solid state guitar amps in terms of the tones they're capable of generating.

Though not in great technical depth, I'm nevertheless aware of symmetrical and assymetrical distortion, harmonics, the use of FETs and so on. It is feasible without tubes to reproduce at least some of the desirable characteristics of which you speak through appropriate and thoughtful design. True, it may not be cheap, but it can be done. The TM60, while being affordable, still costs a bit more than a lot of stuff at the low end of the market. And as we've established it manages to do its stuff through good design without recourse to digital simulation.

Aside from that, you've cited a couple of examples with multiple gain stages (as featured by Greg Burman in England a very, very long time ago). This indicates to me that you're thinking of overdriven or distorted sounds which may be done wonderfully well by the designs you cite, but for which I have no particular use. My own priority is a great, full and powerful clean sound which, among its other features, is provided to my complete satisfaction by the TM60.

Make no mistake (as GWB says), I'd be delighted to own a PRII as well - a PTP Fender tube amp has to be a nice thing to possess - but it doesn't break my heart to live without one.

I'm happy to report that my audiences (so far!) still keep grinnin' while I'm pickin'!

stantheman · February 5th, 2008, 11:13 AM

I'd be happy with either quite honestly.

Wally · February 5th, 2008, 11:27 AM

Tony, I have heard/played a few TEch 21 amps...can't say which ones because they didn't do what my ears wanted to hear. FWiw, I play for my ears and what an audience thinks concerns me not at all. I do not search just for overdrive. I love clean sounds when they are called for, and I love distortion at whatever level is needed for what I want to do with the music.
You and I have agreed that tube sonics can be approached by SS technology.....they have been telling us that SS would do away with tubes for almost 50 years now. It hasn't happened yet, and when an amp gets close...as with the Lab Series....the cost is prohibitive. As I noted, my L-5 cost me almost $600 USD in 1976 dollars when new. There were very few people shelling that much out then for one, and I don't know of very many people shelling out the equivalent today...almost $2300 for a SS amp///modeling or not. There is a SS amp being built down in Florida I believe that goes for close to $3,000 and touts 'tube sonics'. Care to have a go? Teh Deja Vu got rave reviews in the early '90's, and noone has ever seen one. Big bucks for that one, too.
There will come a day when the masses will be able to buy a SS amp that will truly 'emulate' tube sonics...maybe. By that time, the ears of the general public and the players that have grown up on CD's, ipods, digital music in general including SS and modeling amps will probably not hear the difference.
And..the amp won't make any difference. HEy, by that time, we will all have digital interfaces implanted through electrodes. We won't hear or produce music in the same way. Guitars will be superfluous...we will 'think' the music and it will be processed totally electronically. I have had this mightmare...er dream...ever since sometime in the '60's.....electronic interface directly from the brain to amplification. Then, we can stop all of this debate about guitar amps. hehehehehe The tone will be 'mental'....it won't be in the fingers, the wood, the amp...it will be mental. IT is already happening....the next step in evolution is the integration of man and machine.
The horror...the horror.....hehehehe
Ya'll have a good one. This debate over Tubes vs. SS is in the ear of the beholder. IF you don't like it, don't listen. IF you like it, play it.

tdu · February 5th, 2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony474

Anyone with a brain would know that there's no computers or any digital stuff in a TM60. Just good straight-ahead analogue solid-state circuitry. Which works. Just get your facts straight before tossing away glib hearsay wisecracks and comment again when you know what you're talking about.

Your not going to convince people who don't like the amp to like it. Especially being rude. Some of us just plain don't like the TM60. We are entitled to post our opinion about it as you are. A recommendation involves some personal opinion. And I didn't like the TM60 at all, so I personally wouldn't be recommended it to someone.

Are you going to sit around and debate every single person who posts who doesn't like the TM60?

NewOldStock · February 5th, 2008, 11:36 AM

I didn't mean for my reply to sound like an attack on T-21 gear. We must remember what the title of the thread was.

Quote:

Princeton Reverb II or Trademark 60 - which would you choose?

Personally I miss the little TM10 the most because of it's portability, but it's since been replaced with a Micro Cube which I enjoy even more.

Tony474 · February 5th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdu

Are you going to sit around and debate every single person who posts who doesn't like the TM60?

No, of course not. If you've tried the amplifier and don't like it, that's fair enough and a matter for you to decide. But at least you have first-hand experience from which to draw your conclusions. My objection is to those who will condemn it without knowing the first thing about it simply because it lacks a complement of glowing bottles in the back.

As a matter of fact, the original question was from a member who does like the TM60. The dilemma concerning which he requested assistance was the choice between buying one new or purchasing a 26-year old Fender. If it were my decision to make, I'm in the fortunate position of being able to say "Hell - I'll have the pair of 'em." But he's not me

February 2nd, 2008, 12:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
chamberpop TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 41	Princeton Reverb II or Trademark 60 - which would you choose? Greetings, Long-time lurker, recent poster here. Curious as to whom among you may have an opinion on which light-weight 1X12 combo you would prefer: 1.) 1982 Fender Princeton Reverb II or 2.) New Tech 21 Trademark 60 I know many of you are committed to tubes (and Fenders), and I understand why. On the other hand, those Trademark 60s are really great sounding and consistent. Any feedback appreciated. Thanks, c-pop

February 2nd, 2008, 01:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tony474 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Bushey, near London, England Age: 61 Posts: 2,098	Fair point about future value, but I have a Trademark 60 and it really is a terrific amp - well-built, superb-sounding and very versatile indeed. Great clean headroom if set appropriately, and with a built-in SansAmp line-out for recording or PA. I predict that it'll still have a reasonable residual value in 10 years' time as in its own field it's a minor classic, because many people consider it about the only solid state amp worth having, or at least one of very few indeed. If it's good enough for Les Paul... The Princeton, on the other hand, is a Fender tube amp and will quite likely appreciate in value. Plus, of course, it has that muso credibility! As a working amp, however, depending on what kind of music you're playing, at 22 watts, even tube ones, I don't think it will quite match the T60 for volume. Or on the other hand, come to that, tone at low (bedroom-type) volumes. Then, of course, you also need to consider the overall electronic and physical condition of the particular 26-year-old example you're considering. Bottom line: if it was my choice to make... I'd have both! __________________ Proud to be The Man From Uncool.

February 2nd, 2008, 02:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
tdu Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 32 Posts: 2,399 9 Photos	I am in the minority here regarding the TM60. I have one for a few months and just could not get any sounds I liked out of it. Plus I wish they used the same control layout on it as the TM10 and TM30. I found the controls very annoying. BUT...if you happen to like the tones of the TM60 it's a pretty darn convenient amp. Beyond my issues with the control layout, it's such a nicely built amp. It's a nice size and it's light. If you are lugging it around a lot, it could be a great idea. The PRII might hold it's value, but if the price on the TM60 is anything like that I paid for mine it probably costs less than half of what the PRII does. Even with my views on the TM60, if I ever saw a used TM30 I think I would jump on it. __________________ Torn Down Units brand Rock n' Roll My Solo Stuff:

February 2nd, 2008, 03:32 PM	#7 (permalink)
markinlondon Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wellington, NZ Age: 48 Posts: 426	I've used both and would find this a tough decision. The TM is more flexible but the PRII is one of the last "proper" production Fender amps and hasn't quite got to "vintage" status. It comes down to tone I suppose. FWIW I have a TM60 and passed on the last PRII I had a chance to buy. If I were faced with a choice in the shop it could go either way depending on what I was playing at the time. __________________ Helping to invent english country dance guitar since 1981.

February 4th, 2008, 12:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
Chito TDPRI Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ottawa, Ontario Posts: 87	The PRIIs are one of the last PTP amplifiers that Fender built. Clean channel is excellent. Drive channel is so-so. Given a choice between a PTP tube amp as opposed to an SS amp, I'd go with the Fender. __________________ www.mosayk.ca

February 2nd, 2008, 12:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
quackerz Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Jersey Age: 45 Posts: 921 8 Photos	PRII. More or less a Super-Champ with a 12". They're good sounding and pretty flexible and will only go up in value. That Tech 21 thing will probably be worth pennies in 10 years.

February 2nd, 2008, 03:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,767	PRII. OUT of curiousity, what is the price for each amp? I see that a new Trademark 60 is $580. I would guess that a fair market value used is maybe $250-300...more than I would give. I have sold a PRII with footswitch for more than the cost of that T-60 new, and the fellow is more than happy with the amp.

February 3rd, 2008, 05:51 AM	#9 (permalink)
Acephspades Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Kansas Posts: 417	My ex-father-in-law had a PRII and it was a POS! And sounded bad too!!! Because of my experience the only thing that makes them worth anything is the Fender logo and the light bulbs in the back.

February 4th, 2008, 06:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,767	Tony474 wrote "One thing that did occur to me - and I'm genuinely asking here because I don't actually know - is that I once had a Rivera-era 2 x 10 Concert that I found disappointing because it had a quite hard, midrangey sound that was not what I would have associated with a typical Fender. Being that the PRII is from the same era, would it be reasonable to expect it to have a not dissimilar tonality to the Concert?" They are not from the same 'era' actually. paul Rivera worked for Fender before he started his own amp company. the Rivera that you mentioned has two distinctly different preamps....one is more of a tweed/Marshall thing and the other is more liek a BF Fender. When the topography of the Rivera is understood, they are wonderfully versatile amps with good tones to my ear. the PRII has one preamp wiwth a cascaded gain situation but only one tone stack. I like both the PRII and the Rivera amps that I have had/heard. YMMV> I would take either of them over any SS amp that I have had/heard/played through. YMMV... I do know what the market says about the comparisons. Sometimes the applications of people's money takes an errant course, but that is a rarity. Tubes versus SS is not one of those areas as far as my money and the money in the market is concerned. I know that against the cost of a new T'mark 60 I would prefer to buy a used PRII any day. And...I would have more money the next day/month/year if I had/wanted to sell. AS you said, ears and opinions differ; so it is good that all of us can get happy with different choices.

February 4th, 2008, 07:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
markinlondon Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wellington, NZ Age: 48 Posts: 426	The Fender Princeton Reverb II and the Fender Concert (not the brown early 60's 4x10 amp) were both Paul Rivera designs and both introduced in 1982. Source: The Fender Amp Book, John Morrish. As I understand it, Rivera used the Concert's features as the basis of his early eponymous designs. I can't make any statement about the design of the Concert's preamp. I had a "Rivera era" 1x12 Concert for a few years and liked the clean channel but tend to agree with those who say that the overdrive channel got "every sound except a good one". __________________ Helping to invent english country dance guitar since 1981.

February 5th, 2008, 06:36 AM	#16 (permalink)
Tremo Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA Posts: 3,683	A real tube amp versus a SS computer amp? should be a no-brainer. __________________ Exposing the CONs. www.myspace.com/59tremolux

February 5th, 2008, 10:09 AM	#18 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,767	The PAul Rivera-designed Fenders do not offer quite the complexity of the Rivera Fandango or the Chris Duarte LTd Ed that I have owned. The two separate preamps in the Riveras leads to more accessible..through switching of presets...tonal variations. The Fender Riveras can achieve very similar sonics, but one has to twist some dials to get there. the Chris Duarte with the foot pedal controls can yield 10 separate levels of gain without touching a knob...after set up of course. The Fandango yields something like 6 through its pedal. This is with use of the effects loops as a gain stage and understanding of what is going on with the amp topography. Except for Tremo's use of the 'computer' word, I have to agree with him..but then you know that. I don't like to listen to SS guitar amps or a tube amp that is biased to sound like a SS amp.I like rich harmonic production as compared to flat and sterile SS sounds. IT takes a LOT of bucks to get to a SS amp that even comes close and those amps aren't sitting in retail stores. A used Lab SEries L-5 is the best bargain out there if you want to go SS, and it can get close to tube sonics. Everyone's ears are their own and their choices are theirs to make themselves happy. Picking and grinning...just do it.

February 5th, 2008, 11:05 AM	#19 (permalink)
Tony474 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Bushey, near London, England Age: 61 Posts: 2,098	Wally, I have to ask you... have you actually played through an actual Tech 21 Trademark 60? I know the Lab Series L-5 has a good rep, though the nearest I got to using one was another LS model many years ago that I checked out but didn't buy. But both the TM60 and the Roland Blues Cube 60 are also considered by umpteen users as being way out ahead of the general run of solid state guitar amps in terms of the tones they're capable of generating. Though not in great technical depth, I'm nevertheless aware of symmetrical and assymetrical distortion, harmonics, the use of FETs and so on. It is feasible without tubes to reproduce at least some of the desirable characteristics of which you speak through appropriate and thoughtful design. True, it may not be cheap, but it can be done. The TM60, while being affordable, still costs a bit more than a lot of stuff at the low end of the market. And as we've established it manages to do its stuff through good design without recourse to digital simulation. Aside from that, you've cited a couple of examples with multiple gain stages (as featured by Greg Burman in England a very, very long time ago). This indicates to me that you're thinking of overdriven or distorted sounds which may be done wonderfully well by the designs you cite, but for which I have no particular use. My own priority is a great, full and powerful clean sound which, among its other features, is provided to my complete satisfaction by the TM60. Make no mistake (as GWB says), I'd be delighted to own a PRII as well - a PTP Fender tube amp has to be a nice thing to possess - but it doesn't break my heart to live without one. I'm happy to report that my audiences (so far!) still keep grinnin' while I'm pickin'! __________________ Proud to be The Man From Uncool.

February 5th, 2008, 11:13 AM	#20 (permalink)
stantheman Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: White Mountains Posts: 4,920	I'd be happy with either quite honestly. __________________ Somebody Loan Me A Dime

February 5th, 2008, 11:27 AM	#21 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,767	Tony, I have heard/played a few TEch 21 amps...can't say which ones because they didn't do what my ears wanted to hear. FWiw, I play for my ears and what an audience thinks concerns me not at all. I do not search just for overdrive. I love clean sounds when they are called for, and I love distortion at whatever level is needed for what I want to do with the music. You and I have agreed that tube sonics can be approached by SS technology.....they have been telling us that SS would do away with tubes for almost 50 years now. It hasn't happened yet, and when an amp gets close...as with the Lab Series....the cost is prohibitive. As I noted, my L-5 cost me almost $600 USD in 1976 dollars when new. There were very few people shelling that much out then for one, and I don't know of very many people shelling out the equivalent today...almost $2300 for a SS amp///modeling or not. There is a SS amp being built down in Florida I believe that goes for close to $3,000 and touts 'tube sonics'. Care to have a go? Teh Deja Vu got rave reviews in the early '90's, and noone has ever seen one. Big bucks for that one, too. There will come a day when the masses will be able to buy a SS amp that will truly 'emulate' tube sonics...maybe. By that time, the ears of the general public and the players that have grown up on CD's, ipods, digital music in general including SS and modeling amps will probably not hear the difference. And..the amp won't make any difference. HEy, by that time, we will all have digital interfaces implanted through electrodes. We won't hear or produce music in the same way. Guitars will be superfluous...we will 'think' the music and it will be processed totally electronically. I have had this mightmare...er dream...ever since sometime in the '60's.....electronic interface directly from the brain to amplification. Then, we can stop all of this debate about guitar amps. hehehehehe The tone will be 'mental'....it won't be in the fingers, the wood, the amp...it will be mental. IT is already happening....the next step in evolution is the integration of man and machine. The horror...the horror.....hehehehe Ya'll have a good one. This debate over Tubes vs. SS is in the ear of the beholder. IF you don't like it, don't listen. IF you like it, play it.