how small is too small? (speakers/wattage)

skeksis · January 10th, 2008, 06:10 PM

maybe I can explain: I know there's a few dozen variables to keep in mind, but I'm wondering where you'd draw the line at regarding an amp that's too small to use for regular gigging...

I've been on a mid-small amp kick for a couple years now, ever since swapping the AC30 for a Deluxe Reverb. I've since tried a VibroChamp (too small) and have 'settled' on a Princeton Reverb and a 15w Silvertone. Big fan of the tone + portability.

The DRRI was plenty for the small-ish places we play, even in venues where the amps weren't mic'd. BUT that particular amp sounded way bigger than it should have... never had to use it outdoors, though. my current choices have great tone, but lack the 'presence' I've come to associate with bigger amps, particularly those with multiple speakers in the cab. no duh, I guess.

does it take at least a good 12" speaker and 20+ watts to move enough air to sound huge? not just a volume thing, but authority. a Twin or a Bassman? or can 12-15w and 10" ever get there?

just looking for opinions, anyway. how small is too small, given no guarantee of mic'ing the amp every show?

Rocks · January 10th, 2008, 09:13 PM

Have you ever tried one of your smaller amps through a larger cab? When I play my vibro champ through the single speaker in the cab it doesn't get nearly as loud as when I play it though a 2x12 or 4x12 cab. I've also got an old silvertone that is about 5-6 watts and playing it through the 8" speaker it came with isn't very loud, but I've moved it into an old polytone cab with a single 15" and it shakes the walls now.

Flat357 · January 10th, 2008, 09:19 PM

This is an interesting read , which may or not be helpful to you , but very interesting all the same

http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/am...much_power.htm

Dacious · January 10th, 2008, 09:44 PM

With the Princeton, the primary difference between it and a Deluxe is the output transformer. Putting a Deluxe output and a slightly higher rated power transformer ( the Princeton's is a Champ and very marginal) the only other real difference is the speaker.

With a better output tranny and speaker the Princeton should be almost as much amp as a Deluxe. That setup with a 10 or 12" extension cab and speaker should provide plenty.

Gilamnstr · January 11th, 2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat357

This is an interesting read , which may or not be helpful to you , but very interesting all the same

http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/am...much_power.htm

25-250 watts for folk music in a 50-seat coffee shop, and 1500 watts for rock music in a 150-seat club???

skeksis · January 11th, 2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilamnstr

25-250 watts for folk music in a 50-seat coffee shop, and 1500 watts for rock music in a 150-seat club???

yeah, it was an 'interesting' read :-) I was thinking I'd hear more along the lines of:

"I'd never gig with less than 50w pushing 2x12" speakers"
or
"15w and 15" speaker fits many situations"
or
"2w amp using 12au7 pushing 6" speaker really is too small, but a Champ is perfect"

but you never know... thx gents.

Boogie · January 11th, 2008, 02:11 PM

I'd say it depends on what style of music you play, how hard your drummer hits and what other instruments you have in the band. 15 watts should be plenty loud and authoritative enough, but a hard-hitting rock drummer can overpower a 15w amp easily.

OTOH, I've played gigs both mic'ed and un-mic'ed where I've been asked to turn down my 22W Deluxe Reverb, and I don't get above 3 1/2! I'm looking at getting a Princeton with a 10" for these situations.

If there's another electric in the band you have to make sure you're not overpowered there too, although the goal here is for the two guitars to blend nicely, not compete in a volume war.

As far as gigs where you won't be mic'ed, how the band sounds in a non-mic'ed rehearsal session should answer that for you. Remember it's all about the overall band's sound, not whether you're loud enough.

Don't you just love it when you post a question on a forum and some "expert" spews his infinite wisdom without really answering the question?

What I mean is: how about telling us a little more about your band. What style of music? How many pieces and what other instruments are in the band? What is the smallest club you think you will play? What is the largest?

BoB/335 · January 11th, 2008, 02:20 PM

I've written this many times before. I tried a DRRI. Sounded good in the store and at home. It didn't cut it for ma at gigging volume. Tried a '76 VR. I don't think I liked the 10's. Maybe I should have tried swapping for better speakers.
I landed a '69 Pro Reverb. I love the fat sound that 2-12's produce. Plenty of headroom with 40 watts. Takes pedals well. I can't ask for more from an amp. AND I take it to small rooma at lower volume too. I love that fat sound.

Durtdog · January 11th, 2008, 02:30 PM

I don't take this small amp idea too far. Most of the time for me, it's not a matter of sheer volume, but headroom and sound quality. I know I can mike a 5 watt amp with an 8-inch speaker though the PA and be heard...but it's not a tone I really want to be saddled with. I just feel no stage presence at all relying completely on the PA. It feels kinda like going direct, which I really don't like.

It depends on what music I'm playing and how much clean I need as to how many watts. As far as speakers, I can gig with 1x12 or 2x10 but that's about my minimum. I don't care for single 10s and certainly not a single 8.

Other people make those setups work, this is just my preference based on my experience.

Maggot · January 11th, 2008, 03:49 PM

I grew up with big Fenders and never really bought the argument that an amp has to be cranked to sound good, although some do.

If a Deluxe Reverb isn't too quiet, I'd go with that. Otherwise 30-40 watts should be loud enough anyone who's not nuts. A Vibroverb with 2 x 10s isn't much louder than a Deluxe but sounds more together to me - it sounds more uniform through the bottom and top of its volume range.

Then again, I've never considered an amp sounding too "big" to be a problem.

If a Deluxe Reverb is too much amp, I'd consider a Tweed Deluxe for 50s style tones and an Ampeg Reverberocket, which splits the difference between a Deluxe and a Princeton, power-wise, for 60s tones.

Murphy Slaw · January 11th, 2008, 08:29 PM

I'm gigging a Mesa Blue Angel, unmiked, and it's perfect. It'll do 15 watts (class A) with 2;6V6's. Or, flip the switch and it'll do 30 watts class A with 4;EL84's which will handle pretty large clubs. I'm talking 300 plus seats, classic rock, motown, country. It'll combine all 6 power tubes and give you 38 watts, but I prefer the 4;EL84 setting myself, with a Tele.

I've used 100 watt Marshall half stacks, Peavey classic 50, Fender Prosonic (which is a fine amp I still own) ect., but I like a 30 watt amp you can push a little, but still have enough ass to crank if you need to.

Best of luck.

Murph.

Dacious · January 11th, 2008, 09:10 PM

I say this with the greatest respect, but most people who play with a guitar amp behind their knees on a cramped stage without good foldback have no idea how loud they really are, or how crushing the volume is directly in front of them.

Coupled with the fact that even many open-back cabs are quire directional it is easy for some in the audience to be laser-beamed while others can't hear very well.

Done it myself - turned up and up convinced no-one can hear me then been amazed to see the crowd part in front of my amp like the red sea.

Only when I started doing sound for my band and standing out in front with a long lead have I started to appreciate that sound guys often aren't lying or being precious when they tell you you're way too loud.

It is difficult to balance the sound of a band unless everyone is going through the PA and also hearing themselves in the foldback.

There are some music genres that need crushing guitar volume - and there are some people who have the touch and learned experience to back off when playing a dimed amp so that vocals or other soloists etc can be heard.

But my opinion is that's not as many people as think themselves capable of it!

Our PA rigs is two powered 400 watt three-way 15" speakers, an 880 watt powered sub and about 900 watts of foldback with five speakers. That lot has 3-5 vox mics, bass, two 40 watt tube guitar amps Di'd or micced, keys, drums plus sax mic etc.

The only way to get consistent even sound IMO is everything micced and then output levelled through FOH. And coming back through foldback, so you realise you can be heard.

It is overkill for 150 at a wedding reception where we wouldn't use the sub or more then 2-3 foldbacks; but barely adequate for 500 people in a big church or school hall or gymnasium.

We're not a loud band, my Vibrolux is typically on '5' and I'm playing wound back on the guitar for rythym. If you were a loud stoner band or metal with the screaming full stacks on '12' you might need 2-3000 watt and your audience and band members earplugs in order for everything to have any hope of being heard.

That's lets us play with plenty of headroom and no feedback. That's the reason for lots of PA watts - not volume but headroom. You want to run with everything on '5-6' in guitar terms if you can help it. That's the trick - you don't want any distortion, feedback or amps/speakers being overdriven when it comes to PAs.

zook · January 12th, 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dacious

With the Princeton, the primary difference between it and a Deluxe is the output transformer. Putting a Deluxe output and a slightly higher rated power transformer ( the Princeton's is a Champ and very marginal) the only other real difference is the speaker.

With a better output tranny and speaker the Princeton should be almost as much amp as a Deluxe. That setup with a 10 or 12" extension cab and speaker should provide plenty.

Well there is another main difference. The Priceton has a cathodyne phase inverter, the Deluxe has a long tail pair. The cathodyne provides much less gain thahn the long tail pair.

Winnie

Rumble · January 12th, 2008, 01:38 AM

For the first 10 years I played, I used a 100-watt solid state Yamaha with 1x12", which was sufficient for anything I wanted to do. When I switched to tube amps I knew tubes were louder, relatively, in terms of wattage, but I didn't really know at what ratio. So I figured I needed a tube amp that was at least 50 watts. Silly me.

The longer I play, the more I begin to think that wattage is not a great measure of a tube amp's loudness. I have a 60-watt 2x12 Blues Deville that sounds great, but is way louder than I will ever need to get.

I recently scaled down to an AC15, and I was blown away by how loud it is at only 15 watts. I live in a big old wooden house that usually contains sound very well. The first time I cranked the AC15 my wife and daughter were at a park across the street about 300 yards down the block. Even with trees and houses between us, my wife could still hear it there (a drummer would have had to have been pounding to be heard from inside my house at that distance).

I then ran it through my Marshall 4x12 cabinet and it was much friggin louder, on par with the Blues Deville. Again, I can't imagine ever needing that much volume. So by this time in my life I've decided that wattage alone doesn't paint an accurate picture. However, I've never felt a single 10" stands up well to a drummer playing full-on. I believe 1x12" or 2x10" is sufficient for just about any purpose, unless you have another guitar player who is determined to show how macho he is through the volume of his amp.

To really prove my point, consider this: Neil Young plays coliseums and amphitheaters with a 12-watt Fender Deluxe amp with a single 12" and is known for having one of the loudest live shows of any modern performer. Yes, it's definitely pumped through the PA, but he doesn't have any problem with stage volume next to a hammering drummer, a heavy-handed bass player, and another loud guitarist.

So my answer: 12 watts and up with at least a single 12" and you're fine.

gpower · January 12th, 2008, 02:06 AM

I now play through a 15 watt Traynor YCV-20 with a 1x12. It's got plenty of volume for playing at home or jamming with full band.

BoB/335 · January 12th, 2008, 07:48 AM

Dacious

The topic was discussing amps NOT being mic'ed.

I, for one, have always had my amp behind my knees and have made it a life's quest to never be too loud and ALWAYS fit in the mix. I think if you use your brain and have some common courtesy for your band mates as well as having an intense desire for the band as a whole to soung great, that it's not all that hard.

You say you're not a loud band but you have your VR on "5" and have it mic'ed through the PA and the monitors? I guess everyone has a different idea of what is loud. I am wondering what you think would be enough if you had answered the original question as to what is big enough without mic'ing.
Just curious.

I have a rather powerful PA myself and I can't imagine leaving my subs home for a wedding gig. Makes a mojor difference in that THUMP.

Paul G. · January 12th, 2008, 10:42 AM

A Princeton reverb can sound huge with a better and/or bigger speaker.

Get something efficient with good bass response (to compensate for tiny output transformer) and you're good to go.

I ended up with a 10" Weber California Ceramic (paper dust cap) in mine. After that, this amp sounded bigger, louder and fuller than my '76 Vibrolux Reverb. The Vibrolux is gone, but the Princeton has been used on smaller gigs ever since.

P.

sjhusting · January 12th, 2008, 11:06 AM

Well, we're an 8-piece band with horns. We play small clubs, I guess, 100 - 150 people, I'm using either a 5e3 or a 1974, unmic'd; it works well. I get the amps up towards my ear level and use beam blockers.

I haven't used my Deville since we got rid of our other guitar player and his 100-watt Mesa Boogie. Now we can hear each other on stage, and our playing has improved fast. 'Course, our drummer isn't real loud. I really learned how to use the volume on the guitar since moving to small amps. I'm just happier all down the road with this setup - with my tone, with my playing, with the playing of the band. It's a lot more fun now.

The only thing missing is loud clean, but I can do something good enough with the 18watter. And outdoor gigs still have to be mic'd of course, but we only do a couple of those a year.

steven

BoB/335 · January 12th, 2008, 12:47 PM

I made a new baffle for a 12" Alltone for my Princeton Reverb and it's still not close to my Pro Reverb's fatness. And I want to repeat myself. I am NOT talking about loudness.

Dacious · January 12th, 2008, 10:58 PM

My post isn't meant to be an attack on anyone or to question the ability of anyone to 'guess' how loud they are in the unmicced scenario. Only to point out a few things I'd learned.

And the comment on the size of PA is more a response on someone being incredulous at 1500 watts being required for a 150 person club. That Crown article is specifically referring to reinforcing everything.

A Vibrolux on 5 with vintage-type single coil guitar volume on 6-7-8 and no overdrives or the like is actually not loud, compared to my bandmate's Blues Deluxe on '3' with his guitar on 10.

I deliberately turn the amps up louder in foldback than FOH, but they might still be at -15 or -20 off unity on the sliders whereas vox is at or just blow 0db depending on feedback.

In FOH I find you don't need much guitar amp - but the Mackies we have at the front are eons better at sound dispersal and evening-out the sound heard on the dancefloor than amps buried in the backline at the rear of the stage.

Every venue is different, but we find if the bass player and drummer on the other side of the stage can't hear the guitar and vice versa due to positioning it makes life hard. YMMV.

It also depends on what you're playing and who's playing.

Our FOH is rated down to 45hz, so using them at small gigs like the wedding the other day they have plenty of bottom for the bass and kick, as they were attenuated -10db as it was

I agree with 40 watts being more than enough on it's own for most venues if there is no sound reinforcement. And multi speakers will always sound fuller watt/watt. 6L6 amps will typically have more bass than 6V6, at least partly because of how they are usually speakered.

TexGoneNW · January 12th, 2008, 11:25 PM

From experience, 15 watts through a 10" speaker is fine. The sound guys love me, and reward me.

BoB/335 · January 12th, 2008, 11:45 PM

From experience 15 watts with a single speaker if fine also. It's just that from my experience 40 watts and 2-12's is better.

Quote:

My post isn't meant to be an attack on anyone or to question the ability of anyone to 'guess' how loud they are

There you go again. Insinuating that I am "guessing". Maybe you guess. Like I've stated I've gone to great effort to make sure of my volume and that I FIT in the mix.

AND i am not against having everything in the band mic'ed. In fact I've done medium gigs with my Pro Reverb mic'ed through a great system where I could easily have gotten away with my Princeton Reverb. It is just MY personal preference to use the Pro and that does NOT mean for volume.

This is purely different strokes for different folks. skeksis was asking for opinions. I am simply stating mine.

Quote:

just looking for opinions, anyway. how small is too small, given no guarantee of mic'ing the amp every show?

My Princeton Reverb has occassionally almost been buried at a loud Open Jam in a small hole in the wall dive. With no guarentee on mic'ing the amp I would want my Pro Reverb. The last 2 posts are still talking about mic'ing through a PA.

fauxsuper · January 12th, 2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilamnstr

25-250 watts for folk music in a 50-seat coffee shop, and 1500 watts for rock music in a 150-seat club???

For guitar amps I find that a 25 to 30 watt amp works well for blues and non-metal rock in most clubs. I have a 40 watt Fender Bandmaster Reverb that is too loud for most clubs if you want it to really sing. A DR is sometimes not enough amp (large club with a packed house playing rock and roll) if you want a clean rhythm sound or to make solos realy zip over a full band. This depends on how loud your band plays. You could play loud enough with a Deluxe Reverb to get bounced from some clubs.

Most Princeton Reverbs would seem too valuable to modify. Can you get a Deluxe tranny in it without cutting the chassis or adding new holes?

January 10th, 2008, 06:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
skeksis Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: phoenix Age: 31 Posts: 322	how small is too small? (speakers/wattage) maybe I can explain: I know there's a few dozen variables to keep in mind, but I'm wondering where you'd draw the line at regarding an amp that's too small to use for regular gigging... I've been on a mid-small amp kick for a couple years now, ever since swapping the AC30 for a Deluxe Reverb. I've since tried a VibroChamp (too small) and have 'settled' on a Princeton Reverb and a 15w Silvertone. Big fan of the tone + portability. The DRRI was plenty for the small-ish places we play, even in venues where the amps weren't mic'd. BUT that particular amp sounded way bigger than it should have... never had to use it outdoors, though. my current choices have great tone, but lack the 'presence' I've come to associate with bigger amps, particularly those with multiple speakers in the cab. no duh, I guess. does it take at least a good 12" speaker and 20+ watts to move enough air to sound huge? not just a volume thing, but authority. a Twin or a Bassman? or can 12-15w and 10" ever get there? just looking for opinions, anyway. how small is too small, given no guarantee of mic'ing the amp every show? __________________ most of the time: '55 LP Jr. or MIJ '62 Custom Tele ----> '08 Marsh 5F4 Super kit http://www.myspace.com/jswattsmusic

January 10th, 2008, 09:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rocks Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ohio Age: 47 Posts: 690	Have you ever tried one of your smaller amps through a larger cab? When I play my vibro champ through the single speaker in the cab it doesn't get nearly as loud as when I play it though a 2x12 or 4x12 cab. I've also got an old silvertone that is about 5-6 watts and playing it through the 8" speaker it came with isn't very loud, but I've moved it into an old polytone cab with a single 15" and it shakes the walls now. __________________ Rocks Rocks Blues Guitars

January 10th, 2008, 09:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
Dacious Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Godzone Posts: 2,612 35 Photos	With the Princeton, the primary difference between it and a Deluxe is the output transformer. Putting a Deluxe output and a slightly higher rated power transformer ( the Princeton's is a Champ and very marginal) the only other real difference is the speaker. With a better output tranny and speaker the Princeton should be almost as much amp as a Deluxe. That setup with a 10 or 12" extension cab and speaker should provide plenty. __________________ My other Telecaster is a Thinline The Tele Bible, Ch 1, v 10 Love thy Telecaster, covet not thy neighbour's Strat!

January 11th, 2008, 02:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
BoB/335 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Long Island Posts: 476	I've written this many times before. I tried a DRRI. Sounded good in the store and at home. It didn't cut it for ma at gigging volume. Tried a '76 VR. I don't think I liked the 10's. Maybe I should have tried swapping for better speakers. I landed a '69 Pro Reverb. I love the fat sound that 2-12's produce. Plenty of headroom with 40 watts. Takes pedals well. I can't ask for more from an amp. AND I take it to small rooma at lower volume too. I love that fat sound. __________________ BoB/335

January 11th, 2008, 03:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
Maggot Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 735 1 Photos	I grew up with big Fenders and never really bought the argument that an amp has to be cranked to sound good, although some do. If a Deluxe Reverb isn't too quiet, I'd go with that. Otherwise 30-40 watts should be loud enough anyone who's not nuts. A Vibroverb with 2 x 10s isn't much louder than a Deluxe but sounds more together to me - it sounds more uniform through the bottom and top of its volume range. Then again, I've never considered an amp sounding too "big" to be a problem. If a Deluxe Reverb is too much amp, I'd consider a Tweed Deluxe for 50s style tones and an Ampeg Reverberocket, which splits the difference between a Deluxe and a Princeton, power-wise, for 60s tones. __________________ www.myspace.com/feierman

January 10th, 2008, 09:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
Flat357 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Cheshire Age: 40 Posts: 2,913	This is an interesting read , which may or not be helpful to you , but very interesting all the same http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/am...much_power.htm

January 11th, 2008, 02:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
Boogie Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Late Great Golden State Posts: 178 14 Photos	I'd say it depends on what style of music you play, how hard your drummer hits and what other instruments you have in the band. 15 watts should be plenty loud and authoritative enough, but a hard-hitting rock drummer can overpower a 15w amp easily. OTOH, I've played gigs both mic'ed and un-mic'ed where I've been asked to turn down my 22W Deluxe Reverb, and I don't get above 3 1/2! I'm looking at getting a Princeton with a 10" for these situations. If there's another electric in the band you have to make sure you're not overpowered there too, although the goal here is for the two guitars to blend nicely, not compete in a volume war. As far as gigs where you won't be mic'ed, how the band sounds in a non-mic'ed rehearsal session should answer that for you. Remember it's all about the overall band's sound, not whether you're loud enough. Don't you just love it when you post a question on a forum and some "expert" spews his infinite wisdom without really answering the question? What I mean is: how about telling us a little more about your band. What style of music? How many pieces and what other instruments are in the band? What is the smallest club you think you will play? What is the largest?

January 11th, 2008, 02:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
Durtdog Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tennessee Posts: 3,439	I don't take this small amp idea too far. Most of the time for me, it's not a matter of sheer volume, but headroom and sound quality. I know I can mike a 5 watt amp with an 8-inch speaker though the PA and be heard...but it's not a tone I really want to be saddled with. I just feel no stage presence at all relying completely on the PA. It feels kinda like going direct, which I really don't like. It depends on what music I'm playing and how much clean I need as to how many watts. As far as speakers, I can gig with 1x12 or 2x10 but that's about my minimum. I don't care for single 10s and certainly not a single 8. Other people make those setups work, this is just my preference based on my experience.

January 11th, 2008, 08:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
Murphy Slaw Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Joppa, Il. Age: 50 Posts: 439	I'm gigging a Mesa Blue Angel, unmiked, and it's perfect. It'll do 15 watts (class A) with 2;6V6's. Or, flip the switch and it'll do 30 watts class A with 4;EL84's which will handle pretty large clubs. I'm talking 300 plus seats, classic rock, motown, country. It'll combine all 6 power tubes and give you 38 watts, but I prefer the 4;EL84 setting myself, with a Tele. I've used 100 watt Marshall half stacks, Peavey classic 50, Fender Prosonic (which is a fine amp I still own) ect., but I like a 30 watt amp you can push a little, but still have enough ass to crank if you need to. Best of luck. Murph.

January 11th, 2008, 09:10 PM	#12 (permalink)
Dacious Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Godzone Posts: 2,612 35 Photos	I say this with the greatest respect, but most people who play with a guitar amp behind their knees on a cramped stage without good foldback have no idea how loud they really are, or how crushing the volume is directly in front of them. Coupled with the fact that even many open-back cabs are quire directional it is easy for some in the audience to be laser-beamed while others can't hear very well. Done it myself - turned up and up convinced no-one can hear me then been amazed to see the crowd part in front of my amp like the red sea. Only when I started doing sound for my band and standing out in front with a long lead have I started to appreciate that sound guys often aren't lying or being precious when they tell you you're way too loud. It is difficult to balance the sound of a band unless everyone is going through the PA and also hearing themselves in the foldback. There are some music genres that need crushing guitar volume - and there are some people who have the touch and learned experience to back off when playing a dimed amp so that vocals or other soloists etc can be heard. But my opinion is that's not as many people as think themselves capable of it! Our PA rigs is two powered 400 watt three-way 15" speakers, an 880 watt powered sub and about 900 watts of foldback with five speakers. That lot has 3-5 vox mics, bass, two 40 watt tube guitar amps Di'd or micced, keys, drums plus sax mic etc. The only way to get consistent even sound IMO is everything micced and then output levelled through FOH. And coming back through foldback, so you realise you can be heard. It is overkill for 150 at a wedding reception where we wouldn't use the sub or more then 2-3 foldbacks; but barely adequate for 500 people in a big church or school hall or gymnasium. We're not a loud band, my Vibrolux is typically on '5' and I'm playing wound back on the guitar for rythym. If you were a loud stoner band or metal with the screaming full stacks on '12' you might need 2-3000 watt and your audience and band members earplugs in order for everything to have any hope of being heard. That's lets us play with plenty of headroom and no feedback. That's the reason for lots of PA watts - not volume but headroom. You want to run with everything on '5-6' in guitar terms if you can help it. That's the trick - you don't want any distortion, feedback or amps/speakers being overdriven when it comes to PAs. __________________ My other Telecaster is a Thinline The Tele Bible, Ch 1, v 10 Love thy Telecaster, covet not thy neighbour's Strat!

January 12th, 2008, 01:38 AM	#14 (permalink)
Rumble Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Georgia Age: 37 Posts: 936	For the first 10 years I played, I used a 100-watt solid state Yamaha with 1x12", which was sufficient for anything I wanted to do. When I switched to tube amps I knew tubes were louder, relatively, in terms of wattage, but I didn't really know at what ratio. So I figured I needed a tube amp that was at least 50 watts. Silly me. The longer I play, the more I begin to think that wattage is not a great measure of a tube amp's loudness. I have a 60-watt 2x12 Blues Deville that sounds great, but is way louder than I will ever need to get. I recently scaled down to an AC15, and I was blown away by how loud it is at only 15 watts. I live in a big old wooden house that usually contains sound very well. The first time I cranked the AC15 my wife and daughter were at a park across the street about 300 yards down the block. Even with trees and houses between us, my wife could still hear it there (a drummer would have had to have been pounding to be heard from inside my house at that distance). I then ran it through my Marshall 4x12 cabinet and it was much friggin louder, on par with the Blues Deville. Again, I can't imagine ever needing that much volume. So by this time in my life I've decided that wattage alone doesn't paint an accurate picture. However, I've never felt a single 10" stands up well to a drummer playing full-on. I believe 1x12" or 2x10" is sufficient for just about any purpose, unless you have another guitar player who is determined to show how macho he is through the volume of his amp. To really prove my point, consider this: Neil Young plays coliseums and amphitheaters with a 12-watt Fender Deluxe amp with a single 12" and is known for having one of the loudest live shows of any modern performer. Yes, it's definitely pumped through the PA, but he doesn't have any problem with stage volume next to a hammering drummer, a heavy-handed bass player, and another loud guitarist. So my answer: 12 watts and up with at least a single 12" and you're fine. Last edited by Rumble; January 12th, 2008 at 10:11 AM.

January 12th, 2008, 02:06 AM	#15 (permalink)
gpower TDPRI Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Halifax, NS Age: 53 Posts: 73	I now play through a 15 watt Traynor YCV-20 with a 1x12. It's got plenty of volume for playing at home or jamming with full band. __________________ Whether you think you can...or you can't...you're right!

January 12th, 2008, 07:48 AM	#16 (permalink)
BoB/335 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Long Island Posts: 476	Dacious The topic was discussing amps NOT being mic'ed. I, for one, have always had my amp behind my knees and have made it a life's quest to never be too loud and ALWAYS fit in the mix. I think if you use your brain and have some common courtesy for your band mates as well as having an intense desire for the band as a whole to soung great, that it's not all that hard. You say you're not a loud band but you have your VR on "5" and have it mic'ed through the PA and the monitors? I guess everyone has a different idea of what is loud. I am wondering what you think would be enough if you had answered the original question as to what is big enough without mic'ing. Just curious. I have a rather powerful PA myself and I can't imagine leaving my subs home for a wedding gig. Makes a mojor difference in that THUMP. __________________ BoB/335

January 12th, 2008, 10:42 AM	#17 (permalink)
Paul G. Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 885	A Princeton reverb can sound huge with a better and/or bigger speaker. Get something efficient with good bass response (to compensate for tiny output transformer) and you're good to go. I ended up with a 10" Weber California Ceramic (paper dust cap) in mine. After that, this amp sounded bigger, louder and fuller than my '76 Vibrolux Reverb. The Vibrolux is gone, but the Princeton has been used on smaller gigs ever since. P. __________________ Listen to your mother

January 12th, 2008, 11:06 AM	#18 (permalink)
sjhusting Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 649 15 Photos	Well, we're an 8-piece band with horns. We play small clubs, I guess, 100 - 150 people, I'm using either a 5e3 or a 1974, unmic'd; it works well. I get the amps up towards my ear level and use beam blockers. I haven't used my Deville since we got rid of our other guitar player and his 100-watt Mesa Boogie. Now we can hear each other on stage, and our playing has improved fast. 'Course, our drummer isn't real loud. I really learned how to use the volume on the guitar since moving to small amps. I'm just happier all down the road with this setup - with my tone, with my playing, with the playing of the band. It's a lot more fun now. The only thing missing is loud clean, but I can do something good enough with the 18watter. And outdoor gigs still have to be mic'd of course, but we only do a couple of those a year. steven

January 12th, 2008, 12:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
BoB/335 Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Long Island Posts: 476	I made a new baffle for a 12" Alltone for my Princeton Reverb and it's still not close to my Pro Reverb's fatness. And I want to repeat myself. I am NOT talking about loudness. __________________ BoB/335

January 12th, 2008, 10:58 PM	#20 (permalink)
Dacious Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Godzone Posts: 2,612 35 Photos	My post isn't meant to be an attack on anyone or to question the ability of anyone to 'guess' how loud they are in the unmicced scenario. Only to point out a few things I'd learned. And the comment on the size of PA is more a response on someone being incredulous at 1500 watts being required for a 150 person club. That Crown article is specifically referring to reinforcing everything. A Vibrolux on 5 with vintage-type single coil guitar volume on 6-7-8 and no overdrives or the like is actually not loud, compared to my bandmate's Blues Deluxe on '3' with his guitar on 10. I deliberately turn the amps up louder in foldback than FOH, but they might still be at -15 or -20 off unity on the sliders whereas vox is at or just blow 0db depending on feedback. In FOH I find you don't need much guitar amp - but the Mackies we have at the front are eons better at sound dispersal and evening-out the sound heard on the dancefloor than amps buried in the backline at the rear of the stage. Every venue is different, but we find if the bass player and drummer on the other side of the stage can't hear the guitar and vice versa due to positioning it makes life hard. YMMV. It also depends on what you're playing and who's playing. Our FOH is rated down to 45hz, so using them at small gigs like the wedding the other day they have plenty of bottom for the bass and kick, as they were attenuated -10db as it was I agree with 40 watts being more than enough on it's own for most venues if there is no sound reinforcement. And multi speakers will always sound fuller watt/watt. 6L6 amps will typically have more bass than 6V6, at least partly because of how they are usually speakered. __________________ My other Telecaster is a Thinline The Tele Bible, Ch 1, v 10 Love thy Telecaster, covet not thy neighbour's Strat!

January 12th, 2008, 11:25 PM	#21 (permalink)
TexGoneNW Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Victoria, TX Age: 50 Posts: 909 4 Photos	From experience, 15 watts through a 10" speaker is fine. The sound guys love me, and reward me.