Is the Clean Channel on Many Amps Much of a Muchness?

[Brent Hutto]

There's a lot of discussion about modelling amps versus "real tube" amps. Not to mention the ones with a single tube state but solid-state everything else. It always seems to come down to which "Marshall" sound is more authentic or how much an amp can sound like a Fender Tweed if you close your eyes and forget it's neither a Fender nor a Tweed plus it has a smaller speaker to boot.

One thing isn't clear when I read this stuff. Is all of it about the distortion? I can understand if you want to recreate a classic Townshend tone you'd try for a supposedly vintage Marshall setup and play some of Pete's licks. Either it does or doesn't sound like Pete's Marshall stacks, right?

But lets say you're playing something clean and you want either a totally undistorted tone (whatever that means on an electric guitar) or more likely a clean tone that responds with just a bit of edge when you dig it on a particular note. It's one thing to note that a certain old Fender tube amp is wonderful to play in clean mode. But if you're playing some new amp (tube, transistor or hybrid) don't you just want it to sound and respond in a pleasing way? Does it make sense to try to recreate the sound of a specific old amp like you do with heavily distorted overdrive tones?

[BrianF]

Not sure I understand the question in your title but modeling amps TRY to emulate the tone of clean amps as well as the picking dynamics and breakup character of those amps. This is probbaby the hardest thing for these amps to emulate...and when listening to things like PODs ,,,,usually the weakest point. The clean settings usually sound too sterile and not amp-like (in my experience)

[BoB/335]

Everyone approaches this topic from a different viewpoint. Most (and I said most) solid state amps might get you a good sound at a low volume or even pumped up by yourself. It seems to me that most don't get through the mix of a band situation very well. I have found the same to be true with most (I did say most) multi effects pedals. You can usually get some great overdriven and distortion sounds but still won't get through the mix with a band. Usually the clean sounds are passible but not as sweet as a quality tube amp.

With that said, many channel switching amps can get a great overdriven distortion sound but may not get a really pleasant clean sound. I find it easier to concetrate on getting a real pleasant clean sound with a good quality amp and then get a good overdriven distorted sound with quality pedals. In other words if an amp doesn't have a great clean sound you will never get there with pedals. If an amp doesn't get great overdrive on its own you CAN get there with some good pedals.


and btw I try to get a sound similar to the one I am trying to create. If I need an overdriven sound I look for a sound that I am comfortable playing with and try to let er rip. I never try to duplicate an exact sound. Chances are if you heard you favorite song played by that artist LIVE it will not sound like the studio cut either. Try to get something close that you can work with. Either that or get yourself one of every guitar, one of every amp, and a whole lot of pedals and read up on the artist to see what they were using at what point of their life so you can re-create their exact sound. And make sure you play exacting like them too. In other words don't get bent on all this crap. It will drive you crazy.

Hope that makes some kind of sense and of course this is just my opinion.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by BrianF

The clean settings usually sound too sterile and not amp-like (in my experience)

As usual I was too wordy in my question. But you and BoB/335 are getting at what I'm asking. I can see how a tube amp emulation or model might be "bad" (i.e. sterile and fake) or "good" (i.e. like a good tube amp) but I'm not sure I can understand how you might have a "good" model of the clean sounds of eleven different tube amps.

Originally Posted by Bob/335

In other words if an amp doesn't have a great clean sound you will never get there with pedals. If an amp doesn't get great overdrive on its own you CAN get there with some good pedals.

I think that's what I was getting at. I'd think you can model the distortion of any given big, old tube amp and then play that distortion through any power amp and speaker that has the balls to handle it. Good to go. But for the clean sound, the actual power amp, speaker, cab, etc. would seem to be soooo important.

In other words, a halfway decent power amp stage and speaker might communicate a well-modelled distorted tone well enough but still sound crummy playing clean or nearly clean. With the clean tone I'd think little nuances of the actual driver and cabinet and circuit would come through pretty obviously, no?

[petebradt]

Why not just buy (or build) a good tube amp that sounds like you want it to?

[BoB/335]

In other words, a halfway decent power amp stage and speaker might communicate a well-modelled distorted tone well enough but still sound crummy playing clean or nearly clean. With the clean tone I'd think little nuances of the actual driver and cabinet and circuit would come through pretty obviously, no?

That's what I said And like I said many look at this differently although I think there are a LOT of tone purists at THIS site that will agree that it's most important to start with a great clean sound and build on that.

I play a '68 335 though a '69 Pro Reverb (Yeah I have a Tele too. They MADE me buy it ) I get a great clean sound with either guitar and close to what I am looking for with a mosfet version FD2. This setup also gives me 3 distinct sounds. There are many here that prefer a lower wattage amp to get the overdrive from the amp without pedals which is great for them. However they will never get the clean headroom that I get and therefore lose out on getting that great clean sound at a particular volume. Yet they will swear by their great natural tube distortion which I can only hope to emulate to my satisfaction.

There is a reason why so many different kinds of amps are in existence. There is no exact formula. What works for one doesn't work for all. Forums like this are great where you can hear different opinions but these opinions are only a starting point. Take it all in and then get out there and try some amps keeping in mind that they don't always sound the same once you get them home or at a gig. Just another monkey wrench to throw in the works.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by petebradt

Why not just buy (or build) a good tube amp that sounds like you want it to?

I think that's close to where I'm going with my thinking. If you're into clean and you find one clean tone that you like and which is flexible enough to respond to variation in playing style...hard to see why having eleven other models at the turn of a switch is important.

OTOH, I can see where all different kinds of distorted sounds might be cool for someone who's into that.

I have to run now but want to follow up on the clean headroom comment by BoB/335 later...

[teledano]

I think the clean sound of an amp is the most important. You can always push an amp with an OD or Boost pedal, But if the basic clean tones arent there, you don't have a very good foundation to work from IMHO.

[AngelStrummer]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

Everyone approaches this topic from a different viewpoint. Most (and I said most) solid state amps might get you a good sound at a low volume or even pumped up by yourself. It seems to me that most don't get through the mix of a band situation very well. I have found the same to be true with most (I did say most) multi effects pedals. You can usually get some great overdriven and distortion sounds but still won't get through the mix with a band. Usually the clean sounds are passible but not as sweet as a quality tube amp.

With that said, many channel switching amps can get a great overdriven distortion sound but may not get a really pleasant clean sound. I find it easier to concetrate on getting a real pleasant clean sound with a good quality amp and then get a good overdriven distorted sound with quality pedals. In other words if an amp doesn't have a great clean sound you will never get there with pedals. If an amp doesn't get great overdrive on its own you CAN get there with some good pedals.


and btw I try to get a sound similar to the one I am trying to create. If I need an overdriven sound I look for a sound that I am comfortable playing with and try to let er rip. I never try to duplicate an exact sound. Chances are if you heard you favorite song played by that artist LIVE it will not sound like the studio cut either. Try to get something close that you can work with. Either that or get yourself one of every guitar, one of every amp, and a whole lot of pedals and read up on the artist to see what they were using at what point of their life so you can re-create their exact sound. And make sure you play exacting like them too. In other words don't get bent on all this crap. It will drive you crazy.

Hope that makes some kind of sense and of course this is just my opinion.

+1 And if you add to that the mic used in the recording, it's placement, the room tone, mixing board and settings, mastering equipment and settings, the system you play it through, etc. psychosis is right around the corner.

Music is more of an art than a science. Trust your ears and train them too.

[jh45gun]

For what it is worth I disagree about the comments with using a multi pedal I have been using a Digitech PR80 for more than a few years now in front of my amps as they have no effects including reverb and I have not have had any problems using it in a band situation to give me reverb and other effects like Chorus ect. It has worked great for me.

[BoB/335]

It seems to me that we are not talking about reverb and chorus but I may be mistaken.

[Dacious]

Not saying it can't happen, but I've never heard a SS amp or pedal produce the washy organic reverb that a Fender tube-driven version does.

I include in that all the amps which drive and recover reverb from chips like the hotrod series, PV Classics. Some of them can sound OK for reverb, but it's not the same and doesn't have the same quality. That doesn't mean the reverb on those amps is unusable, just it doesn't sound the same to me.

As far as clean tone, if you are pre-breakup with no reverb, there's maybe not that much difference between many amps, except on different amps it comes in at different points. In those cases, colouring is probably down to the speakers.

[Mojohand40]

I know I'm big time in the minority when it comes to amps..soo..here's my 2 cents...
Not all Solid State transitor amps are amp modelers. Period. End of sentence.

I own two Solid state transistor amps that I bought mainly for the clean sounds.
One is a Kustom 30 watt with 10 inch celestion and a real nice real spring reverb. No digital nothing. It sounds like a Kustom solid state amp. It doesn't claim to model anything. It's sparkly, pedal steel clean at very loud or soft volumes. I get good tone from it. I could care less if it sounds like any other amp. I like it for what it is.

My other Solid State is a Fender Princeton 650. Its a 65 watter with a 12" Celestion, built in tuner and DSP effects. It is NOT a "moddelling" amp, instead it has 7 "Timbre" settings that are really just preset Parametric Equalizer settings. Does it sound like a Tube amp, a little here and there. But it does sound (to me) at certain settings like the cleanest, honky tonk riff machine I've ever played. Other times I coax nice jazz cleans out of it for Travis Picking goodness.
Point is, to ME, I have yet to play a tube amp in the sub 1500.00 dollar range that gives me the kind of "clean" sounds I get from this 'lil out of production amp that can be found for under 300.00. Now If was longing for a nice smooth overdriven blues sound, well Honestly, both of these amps would fall short, and maybe NEVER sound as good as a 400.oo tube amp.
It depends on what sound you are after. Try as many as you can, but for your own sake use your ears and not your heart when trying amps. Forget whether amps you are trying are Solid State or Tube or Modeling or Hybrid. Do you Like the sounds? Will it fill your need?
ANYWAY:
For me Peraonally, in the solid state .vs Tube internet debate, after trying a LOT of amps over the years, I have come to one conclusion:

I rather play a good Solid State than an "okay" Tube amp.

[richon]

the Tubes works with 5 harmonics... and transistors amp work with only 3 harmonics... so you hear those differences...

if you don't hear those differences... you don't need a tube amp :hahaha:

[11 Gauge]

There's a fundamental flaw in the foundation of this comparison.

What is clean? With a guitar player, even our clean tones tend to be a bit compressed, there are harmonics present, the bottom tends to need to be firm but not boombox punchy, and the top end waveform is rounded in ways that are very tricky to replicate with silicon.

I've heard some great clean SS stuff, but it is few and far between, and the difference between it and a great tube amp are clearly evident when you A/B the two.

Some of the worst clean amps I've heard are the clean channel on tube high gain 100 watters. They are so linear all the way up to ear bleeding volumes that it would make sense to mate one up to a SS power amp instead, but I think that many of these guys are looking for that boombox punch, or they're using a lot of effects for the clean stuff, and prefer the ultra cleans.

Conversely, the best cleans I've heard on multichannel amps tend to use a fairly classic circuit (especially for the phase inverter). It's no surprise that you'll hear folks comment on a great clean channel, but mixed feelings for the OD channels.

IMO, the best solid state cleans I've heard were from the JD10 pedal, most Tech 21 stuff, a few old Peaveys, and the Boutique Clean model on my Vox Valvetronix. Everything else makes me revert to tubes.

[Brent Hutto]

11 Gauge,

What would consider an exemplary "clean" tube amp?

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

11 Gauge,

What would consider an exemplary "clean" tube amp?

So subjective, I dare not answer it.

Yet, I will -

- BF Twin Reverb, Vibroverb. Super Reverbs and Vibrolux Reverbs can have awesome cleans as well, but I find them to be much more delicious when cranked, and the clean disappears.

- Higher powered Marshalls (oldies) have wonderful clean tones, IMO. Right up there with the Fenders. One of the best I've ever heard was a modded JCM800 2203 (Apex Theory's guitarist, on their first EP) to do nothing but gorgeous clean tones.

- If you ever get a chance to hear/try one, old Harry Joyce built HiWatts have incredible cleans, IMO. But you'll probably go deaf experiencing it.

Reminder - this is EXTREMELY subjective. You'll get just as many folks telling you that Voxes, tweeds, Dr. Z amps, etc. all can do a great clean. There is no definitive answer. "Clean guitar amp tone" is a total misnomer, as far as I'm concerned.

Every reply to this thread could list you a thousand different amps, and you might be unhappy with all of them. You're just going to have to try some, until you find one you like.

[BoB/335]

But lets say you're playing something clean and you want either a totally undistorted tone (whatever that means on an electric guitar) or more likely a clean tone that responds with just a bit of edge when you dig it on a particular note. It's one thing to note that a certain old Fender tube amp is wonderful to play in clean mode. But if you're playing some new amp (tube, transistor or hybrid) don't you just want it to sound and respond in a pleasing way?

For some reason so many people skip over the Pro Reverb. That's probably why I never heard much about it myself. I wish I could remember what the heck made me check for Pro Reverbs that day. I got an extremely clean (cosmetically) '69 Pro Reverb off of ebay. I had tried a DRRI and a Minty MINT '76 Vibrolux Reverb and neither did it for me. At the time I used my '69 Princeton Reverb fairly often and can't remember the last time I fired up my
'68 Twin Reverb (pair of EVM 12L's and extremely HEAVY) I like this Pro a lot. 40 watts, 2-12's and stays pretty clean.

Probably one of the best really clean SS amps I've heard is a Roland Jazz Chorus.

[fierce_carrot]

Jazz players who demand clean tone more than not, use SS amps. BB King uses a Gibson LAB series and nobody is complaining about him. Recording studio all over the world use some type of modeling system.

I'm a huge fan of modeling amps and have used them for years as a home practice/recording setup with excellent results. I gig with my tube amps but would have no qualms about using my POD XT LIVE if necessary.

[Brent Hutto]

I know nothing about live-performance sound so let me ask this...

If you were to take your Pod XT Live to a gig, you'd connect it directly to a mixer/PA? Or would you run it through one of your own amps?

[teledano]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

I know nothing about live-performance sound so let me ask this...

If you were to take your Pod XT Live to a gig, you'd connect it directly to a mixer/PA? Or would you run it through one of your own amps?

You could do either.... but I find that running modeling pedals etc... unless you are only using them for effects like reverb / delay etc... causes a tonal mess with most tube amps. i think the best way to deal with the Pod etc... is right into the board.

[BrianF]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

For some reason so many people skip over the Pro Reverb. That's probably why I never heard much about it myself. I wish I could remember what the heck made me check for Pro Reverbs that day. I got an extremely clean (cosmetically) '69 Pro Reverb off of ebay. I had tried a DRRI and a Minty MINT '76 Vibrolux Reverb and neither did it for me. At the time I used my '69 Princeton Reverb fairly often and can't remember the last time I fired up my
'68 Twin Reverb (pair of EVM 12L's and extremely HEAVY) I like this Pro a lot. 40 watts, 2-12's and stays pretty clean.

Probably one of the best really clean SS amps I've heard is a Roland Jazz Chorus.

I have a 66 Vibrolux Reverb and it is a really great amp...but you are coorect the Pro Reverb is close to the same amp except it has 2 x 12's and larger cab and it sounds fantastic... lower wattage than a Twin Reverb...about the same power as a VR... Pro Reverb is a great amp...