Buying a Princeton - prefer "work done" or "left alone"?

[James Knox]

With the recent buzz on Princeton Amps , I recently bought a few to see if I could hear the difference between Silverface, Blackface, Reverb and Non-Reverb models.

After a lot of tone-testing and Forum Reading (TGP, FDP, Weber, and TDPRI) I found out that AFTER Filter Cap replacements, NOS tubes and Speakers (10" vs 12") made a lot of difference in the sweet tone that can be squeezed out of a Princeton.

I Read alot of discussions regarding the Stokes Mod, the Paul C Mod and the David Allen type Mid Range Chicken Head Control (on back of the amp). Some guys like leaving the Prince stock (10" speaker, no mods) and some guys say do the Stokes/Paul C/Mid Range Mods, put a 12" Speaker in it and GIG THAT BABY!

After my Amp Tech has finished going through each amp (replacing Filter Cap Cans, returning to stock, checking voltages, values, biasing, etc) we are going to pick one "TEST AMP" and do the different mods, one at a time to determine what we like. The Stokes/Paul C/MidRange Mods are very easy to reverse and return the amp to dead stock. I am going to keep maybe 1 or 2 of the cleanest amps (maybe modded, maybe not) and sell the others. They will ALL be totally "ready to go" for the studio or live. Nice tubes, biased correctly, great speakers, quiet, dependable and ALL having the beautiful Sonic Signature of the Princeton.

My question is this: if you were shopping for a Princeton, would YOU prefer to buy one WITH the Stokes/PaulC/Midrange Mods, or WITHOUT the Mods with factory specs?

Thanks for your input (pun intended)!

Peace,

James

[Big Mike Simpson]

You can't beat a "stock" restored or tuned up (caps tubes etc) with a 12" speaker added.

The only "mod" I would recomend to anyone is a 12" speaker.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

You can't beat a "stock" restored or tuned up (caps tubes etc) with a 12" speaker added.

The only "mod" I would recomend to anyone is a 12" speaker.

My PR is exactly as Big Mike described, and will be mine until the roll is called up Yonder!

Cheers, Tim

[tdu]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

You can't beat a "stock" restored or tuned up (caps tubes etc) with a 12" speaker added.

The only "mod" I would recomend to anyone is a 12" speaker.

Ya from my experiences with my PR I would agree.

[newrider1969]

Here is an excerpt from an article from The Tone Quest Report.

Under 40 Watt of Whoop Ass

By David Boze



Princeton Voodoo
Now if you really want the best tone from a Princeton, the following modifications will lead you to guaranteed Tone Nirvana.

Princeton Reverbs differ from the other two amps we’ve covered in several respects. There is only one channel, the tremelo functions differently, the phase inverter is unique, and there happens to be a slight inherent mismatch in the phase inverter. Match that up, and while you are at it, blueprint the entire power section by matching all of the components perfectly, using the highest quality parts. Also add two 470 ohm resistors to the screen grids of the 6V6 power tubes, which was a customary practice in all of the bigger Fender amps. Having made these modifications, you will come unglued with the overall sound of your new and improved Princeton Reverb. This slightly modified amp will be virtually twice as loud, way fuller, with significantly fatter tones overall. Couple it with a better speaker and you’ll have an amp that screams unlike any Princeton or Deluxe you’ve ever heard. I recently sat-in with a band using one of my blackface Princeton Reverbs that has a 12" speaker installed and the recommended "blueprinting". I easily held my own on stage with a Hammond B-3 with a Leslie 145, a bass player, and drummer, with the Princeton’s volume set at about "8". Prior to the show, I heard a few snickers that my "little" Princeton would be swallowed up by the rest of the band. At least 10 people approached me afterwards and asked where my big amp was, since I sure couldn’t be getting that great tone out of a Princeton. Imagine their surprise when I showed them the cord between my old Strat and the Princeton (with no stomp boxes). They couldn’t believe it.

[skeksis]

ALRIGHT>>> for those of you endorsing the 12" in a princeton reverb, what's your pick for a speaker?

I spent a little time in the shop this evening, and put together a nice little baffle for a 12", attached a '68 Jensen C12N, and tried it out.

I think I've got a marginal example of an *ok* older speaker, and well, it sounds like theres a blanket over the bass.

Any personal favorites, or wisdom for or against dropping vintage type alnicos (like Emi Red Fang or Jensen high $) or brittish voiced speakers in this little amp?

[micpoc]

bluzbraker, I hope you're willing to share all the results of your listening tests with us; I've got a gutted PR right now that I'll soon get to working on, and would love to hear first hand about the differences you find.

As far as the mods go, I'm not familiar with the first two, but the Allen midrange is one I'd consider, particularly since I don't have to mar up the front face plate to do it. On the speaker issue, I'd just as soon keep a 10" in there.

[jrmjr1000]

I have a 72 princeton silverface with tremolo and reverb, which was just ok soundwise but did not growl enough for me. My tech, Nick, and I experimented and the results were WAY BETTER.
12 inch alnico speaker, fender deluxe output tranny upgrade, redid the filter caps with military grade, rewired the mismatch on the phase inverter (actually removed the wiring and resistors, still no hum after rebias) and rewired the tremolo like a single ended champ.

[mark norwine]

I think "healthy" and "safe" is always better....new caps, grounded cord, etc. Spending crazy money for an amp that needs wearable components changed out makes no sense to me. It's like buying an "vintage car" with worn-out ball joints.

That said, I've decided that I'm not really a PR kinda guy, so I've decided to part with my blackface. Cest la vie

EDIT....I should add: I no longer endorse the PaulC mod nor the Stokes mod. Both mods [especially the Stokes mod] result in an increase of output power. That increase is accomplished by raising the current demands on the PT to a level that I believe to be marginally beyond the capabilities of the stock PT. I've seem amps [wired with these mods] cook an otherwise-healthy PT, so I've decided that these mods are not such great ideas.

[teleamp]

Originally Posted by mark norwine

I think "healthy" and "safe" is always better....new caps, grounded cord, etc. Spending crazy money for an amp that needs wearable components changed out makes no sense to me. It's like buying an "vintage car" with worn-out ball joints......

+1 Unless the price is such that once you've bought the amp and had it serviced, the total spent was still in the proper price range.

As far as speakers go, the 10" speaker is a big part of the PR vibe, nothing beats a great sounding older speaker, but they are not all equal. MY 10" Oxford sounds better than a BLue or JBL D110, but I haven't heard any others that sound as good.

MikeY

[mark norwine]

Originally Posted by teleamp

+1 Unless the price is such that once you've bought the amp and had it serviced, the total spent was still in the proper price range.

I agree 101%

**OR** if the work performed was a shoddy job & you'll need to get it done over anyway, then the price should be lowered accordingly.

[greggorypeccary]

What's the deal with this? Also add two 470 ohm resistors to the screen grids of the 6V6 power tubes, which was a customary practice in all of the bigger Fender amps.

Anyone done it? Pros? Cons? I don't really want to mess with my Princeton but if something will improve the tone without any adverse technical effects I'm game to try it.

BTW - I have an Emi. Copperhead in mine which is a nice, fat sounding ten.

[mark norwine]

All tube amps benefit from screen resistors. Keeping the grids from "running away" is never a bad idea.

I, too, have a copperhead in my BFPR, but I'm not digging it all that much. I thought about trying other speakers, but I really don't feel like investing in an amp that I want to get rid of....

[greggorypeccary]

Originally Posted by mark norwine

All tube amps benefit from screen resistors. Keeping the grids from "running away" is never a bad idea.

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does this mean?

Is it a tone thing or just help to avoid potential failures?

[mark norwine]

It's not a tone thing....it's [mostly] a "save the tubes" thing. If the screens draw too much current, the tube cooks. Screen resistors {present in most amps, absent in PRs} help to limit the current flow.