YOUR opinion and experience: Gig volume WARS!!!

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by niterail

basically the consensus was that nowadays, people want the sound of a live band to be the volume of your home stereo, and people want to talk over it

the CROWDS have changed.

That is a ridiculous conclusion. What is more grounded in reality is the fact that people are tired of paying good, hard earned money on having their ears assaulted by guitar players who refuse to listen to anybody on the matter.

I AM A GUITAR PLAYER, and I love old RnR music and cranked amps (I build so many amps its ridiculous)...

I HATE going to concerts where people crank up an amp, aim it at me, and deafen me mercilessly for an hour... take a non-musician and you get the disconnect even more. They want to HEAR music, not shrill overly loud wanking... the crowds haven't changed. That's NOT the disconnect.

I don't pay good money to "talk over a band", and many others don't.

Originally Posted by getbent

I think you found it right there. It is not the volume or the notes but the shrill quality that everyone is complaining about....

So, you may be faced with a compromise. Give the fans what they want or keep the sound that you want (with all the complaints)

And hear more stories of MUSICIANS (like getbent, myself, and many others posting similarly on this thread) walking out of concerts we paied good money to see/hear.

Out of the last three concerts I've attended I have been in pain with the volume.

The next step is losing gigs because you refuse to listen to the soundman, the PAYING audience, and YOUR OWN band. Everyone else is wrong... except for the loud player and music teachers who played in the '70s.

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

You know, it occurs to me that niterail might have a high-frequency hearing loss (not uncommon with us rock'n'rollers!) and what now sounds good to him might well be piercingly painful treble to innocent bystanders. Perhaps a trip to the audiologist might be in order?

Cheers, Tim (who, at 48, definitely has lost a portion of his hearing!)

+1,000

Who cares what the "old big names" did? You are no longer being OBJECTIVE about this.

This is an intervention - like MY band pulled on me HAHAHA

You're going to damage your hearing if you don't listen to your band, the soundguy, and the audience on this subject - otherwise, you're only playing for yourself 100% and will fail to even do that in a few years/decibels.

Originally Posted by niterail

on the flip side of the coin, i find 'dark jazz tone' to be my LEAST favoite sound for guitar.

That's cool, but you've gotta understand your favorite sound for the guitar may be 99.9% of the population's ear stabbing pain.

Originally Posted by niterail

with your treble rolled down that low, you can play basically anything and it sounds clean.

alot of those jazz 'shredders' can't play very clean on the bridge pickup with the treble high.

That is a subjective, biased statment and not entirely true. Its not the clean/bright they're after, its the clean/dark.

They chose NOT to use a bright bridge pickup for the same reason you chose NOT to use a dark neck pickup. Taste/opinion.

A jazzer playing a Tele (as opposed to a jazz box) through a 100w Twin will be just as clean... unless of course its turned to 10 with an OD pedal.

Originally Posted by niterail

by the way, i practice with a fender frontman 15 amp with the treble set to 10. not because i have 'high frequency loss', but because with that level of ear-shriekingly high treble, i can hear all my mistakes.

River in Egypt? I was bad at geography until my band, the crowd, and the soundguy showed me a map.

Originally Posted by niterail

i can't tell you how many times i have had students who play with high distortion with echo and delay on the neck pickup come to me, and i plug them into the frontman with the treble set high, slap it on their bridge pickup, and say:
"now try that again"

they can't do it.

And I can't tell you how many times someone has come to me with what their teacher unyieldingly told them as 100% fact that was completely ridiculous and/or purely subjective.

A Frontman 15?! You are joking and being facetious, aren't you?

Sure, FX can cover up some mistakes, but saying that any SS amp with Treble on 10 is the only/best way you can hear mistakes is a great disservice to the high teaching credentials you are bandying about.

Originally Posted by professor

What's de name o' dat river in Egypt...?!?

+1

With the given adamant bias, this thread has nowhere else to go. Turn your Treble and Volume to 10. When the soundmen, the band, and the crowd stop dealing with it, the garage door and a hearing aid will be the front row.

[frank4001]

You have to be realistic when you gig around town and want to continue to do it. Every place is different. Thats why every gig I'm getting paid over $75.00 bucks for I bring two amps. One reason is if one goes down. The other is if my usual amp happens to be too much for the situation I'll use my smaller back up. Works esoecially well if you've never done the venue before. You're paid to make music. Music should not hurt ears it should make them feel good. The bottom line is you have to learn to deal with it wether it means fuzz boxes, miking through a P.A. or just good 'ole turn it up the joint is jumping. Also I see players moping about their tone or whatever..I moped about it one night and then a light went on..I challenged myself to make it work even though we had to play much lower than normal..Well I did it and actually enjoyed it..There are alot of places that hire bands that shouldn't so its not always the bands fault but when you when you got lemons.... We rarely get complaints now but if we do I realize that some of these guys do this for a living and I'm not going to hurt them..You never know who's listening and may be considering you for a future gig. We picked up a well paying weddding gig that way..and man that was like winning the lottery for those guys. We played louder at the wedding than at the gig. The bottom line is we were making good sounds. Drums really set the volume and you need to play to that level. Everyone needs to listen to one another...its just that simple.

[niterail]

well that's why i am gigging with the vibrochamp now.





there HAVE been just as many gigs using the deluxe where people in the CROWD have told me that they couldn't hear me. even while the soundguy was telling me i was too loud.


in any case, i created this thread to get some help, not to get criticized for being too loud.


which of course, none of you can tell 'cause you haven't been to a gig. when other friends from other bands or longtime fans come to see us, they almost always tell me i have to turn up. i say i can't, because the sound guy won't let me.

this isn't about me wanting to be 'painful' or 'icepicky' or too loud for the situation, i REALIZE what the sound levels should be i REALIZE what the mix should sound like.

my problem is when no one can hear me and THE SOUNDGUY TELLS ME i am too loud.

perhaps i was not being clear.

in any case, just drop it.

[frank4001]

I didn't mean to negativly critisize you in any way...If you cant be heard up front that IS the sound guys fault. Playing Vibro champ with drums ...I can't see for the world you could be too loud...I didn't mean to get all preachy either...I re-read my previous post and it did sound that way..My apologies...

[Wally]

My last comment...if I were in niterail's position, I would get a sireless system...temporary if needed...and take both the DR and the VC to the next gig with this 'soundman'. I would make a point of sitting with the soundman while playing so I could get a handle on what differences there are between the two sets of ears. Switch back and forth from amp to amp to really understand what the soundman is hearing..or not hearing as the case may be....and what niterail's ears are and aren't hearing.
After listening to some of the cuts on niterail's link, I have a personal suspicion that there is a question of balance between instruments/vocals and that that might be the problem the soundman is having. I hear too much volume in the guitar's rhythm work for my personal ear.
There..I said it. niterail, you are TOO LOUD, man! hehehehe Good licks.

[Ben Harmless]

I'll just throw in another "the soundguy" opinion here.

Everything described in this thread can easily be a result of five major factors:

1. Many amps can be very directional. The soudguy can be having his (or her) head cut off, while the dude in the front row, on the bassist's side can't hear you at all. You're too loud and too soft at the same time.

2. If someone gives me the line "but it's only on three" I'll punch them. In case anyone here is new to (tube) guitar amplification, your amp being set to three does not mean that it's on 30% power. Volume controls are not linear. My Marshall doesn't get much louder past five - therefore, three is a huge chunk of the actual volume the amp is capable of. If your amp is breaking up, you're hearing most of the volume it can put out. Yes, it keeps getting louder, but the actual SPL isn't going up that much after you're nice and saturated.

3. Back when the old guys played with dimed amps, many of the speakers that came stock were significantly less efficient than those today. You can have a real chunk of your volume vanish with a lower-efficiency speaker. Brian May and Pete Townshend had some prettty low-efficiency drivers in their amps. There just wasn't anything else available.

4. Not all amps are made alike. I've been drowned out by a drummer when cranking a 40-watt tube amp. I almost kept up with the same drummer with a 15-watt amp. I've heard Twins that were breaking up nicely at a tolerable level, and I've heard other Twins that were earsplittingly loud and clean as a whistle. The room can also have a huge part in this.

5. You're too loud. This is only a possibility. I'm not pinning this on any one person.

Honorable mention factor: The soundguy may absolutely be an idiot. Some areas have huge populations of complete hacks. Others have a lot of talent. Keep this in mind though - I've let plenty of bands bury themselves. If it's not endangering anyone's hearing (more than usual) then most of the time I'll keep my trap shut and not tell a loud guitarist to turn down. It's their band, and if they want to make it suck, then they're more than welcome to do it. There are plenty of good bands out there that can be taking the bookings. Sometimes what a soundguy doesn't say is more important to your show than what he does.

The important thing is to find someone you trust. I've got several local bands who trust me, and they seek me out when they can. The guitarists trust me enough that they set their amps so low that I actually have to tell them to relax and turn up! When you find that person, trust them! If you find yourself thinking "well, that person must not be as good as I though if he/she thinks I'm too loud" then that's a surefire sign that your problem is more ego than not.

[Bill]

After walking out of concerts because of passing my pain threshold all the way in the back row, I can't wait for future technology.

I used to love live music, but loud bands have ruined it for me. I only go to acoustic concerts or free ones nowadays. Just don't care to spend another $100 just to walk out the door 20 minutes later.

Next time I go to a concert, they'll hand me earbuds at the door, the musicians will be in a clear soundproof box on the stage, and I'll have a control that lets me turn up the volume to what I want.

[Ed P]

Originally Posted by Bill

After walking out of concerts because of passing my pain threshold all the way in the back row, I can't wait for future technology.

I used to love live music, but loud bands have ruined it for me. I only go to acoustic concerts or free ones nowadays. Just don't care to spend another $100 just to walk out the door 20 minutes later.

Next time I go to a concert, they'll hand me earbuds at the door, the musicians will be in a clear soundproof box on the stage, and I'll have a control that lets me turn up the volume to what I want.

I completely agree.

These days I carry a spare pair of earbuds with me at all times - I even use them at Guitar Center and the movie theaters. Does that mean I'm getting old? Being a curmedgeon is a very groovy place to be!

[Rizo]

Niterail... I don't know how old you are, but really you should have you hearing checked. It really sounds like you've lost some high end. I have some of that myself, and I've learned to deal with it.

A lot of audiologist will do a check for free. It's worth looking into.

[jjmantele]

So guess what I'm doing next Saturday for the 1st time? I’m gonna be a professional Sound Guy!

4 Vocals, 3 drum mics, 2 guitars, bass, sax and keys all to the board. Having heard bad sound guys and having jammed with Mr. 2 Full Stacks I should have the advantage of seeing it from both sides. (Fantastic sound at the Brian Adams show in NJ last week BTW. )

It’s outdoors and the system sounds like it’s a good one so it should be a fun initiation. I’ll probably have the guitar amps aimed across the stage directly at their respective players, (and on to the rest of the band.) A little guitar in the monitors too. They both use PODs and multi-sound floor computer thingies into SS amps. I won’t have to worry about them needing to blast them to get the tubes overdriving.

[HC]

This thread has gotten a bit silly I think.... If it isn't painfull to stand in front of the amp on stage, and you can still hear what the rest of the band is doing, it probably isn't painfull for the audience.

I gig regularly, have used a HotRod Deville for four years, and recently started using a Dr. Z Prescription head through a 4x10 cab. I set the volume where it needs to be to get good tone and to hear myself clearly onstage. On the Z that means somewhere around 11-12 O'clock on the volumeknob. I mic the cab and let our regular soundman handle the mix, no complaints about being too loud. I have 45 watts, he has 13000.

[professor]

Originally Posted by HC

This thread has gotten a bit silly I think.... If it isn't painfull to stand in front of the amp on stage, and you can still hear what the rest of the band is doing, it probably isn't painfull for the audience.

Not sure I buy that. I'm standing in front of my amp, so my ankles are bearing the brunt of the volume and higher frequencies...

An audience member, seated at a table, is going to hear something VERY different, from what *I* am hearing.

A lot depends on the type of venue. Hard to compare a dance club with say, a restaurant that features music...

[JohnnyCrash]

If I misunderstood or have offended, I apologize. I'm sure you can be objective and do what needs gettin' done without all of this excessive help - you are an adult. Please accept my humble apologies.

The info presented here can be usefull for many folks, even if not for the original poster... so for niterail, the horse has been beaten, again I apologize.

For anyone else (who is NOT the original poster) experiencing volume issues or differences of opinion with local sound guys - the equine may not be properly flogged just yet... so continue if you must - learn, have fun.

Good subject to start a thread on by the way, niterail. Good advice on a lot of levels too. Great discussion (notwithstanding the friction).

I myself will be using the "buy the soundguy a beer" advice - excellent psychological warfare technique for us electric warriors fighting the good fight.

[jjmantele]

Originally Posted by jjmantele

So guess what I'm doing next Saturday for the 1st time? I’m gonna be a professional Sound Guy!

4 Vocals, 3 drum mics, 2 guitars, bass, sax and keys all to the board. Having heard bad sound guys and having jammed with Mr. 2 Full Stacks I should have the advantage of seeing it from both sides. (Fantastic sound at the Brian Adams show in NJ last week BTW. )

It’s outdoors and the system sounds like it’s a good one so it should be a fun initiation. I’ll probably have the guitar amps aimed across the stage directly at their respective players, (and on to the rest of the band.) A little guitar in the monitors too. They both use PODs and multi-sound floor computer thingies into SS amps. I won’t have to worry about them needing to blast them to get the tubes overdriving.

I just learned the opening band insists on using their own PA and sound man. I foresee possible turf wars. Should be interesting with 2 full PAs set up and all-you-can-drink free beer as part of the event.

[namida]

On a side note, Scott Henderson uses one of those Boss looper. He records through them before the show and then plays them while he is where the crowd should be to check and tweak his sound. That sort of thing might help as well to get a better view of how you sound like on the other side of the stage. Interesting discussion, I got a lot out of the exchanges might help me on my next gig

[jumpnblues]

"...of course, that depends on the type of hearing loss a person may have..."

Key point. An eardrum with a hole in it is not the kind of hearing loss most musicians suffer from. Most musicians suffer from nerve damage induced hearing loss which is irreversible. Just wanted to distinguish between the two and make that point.


OK, change of subjects sort of...guys maybe I'm suffering from hearing loss. I can't for the life of me imagine a scenario, save maybe a coffee shop sized venue, where a tweed Deluxe would be too much amp. I can see where it could be made to be too much amp if unnecessarily miced or something. But I've played both professionally and semi-professionally for 46 years and have yet to see a small to medium sized venue where a tweed Deluxe wouldn't work very nicely. I owned a Victoria 20112T Tweed Deluxe and have a small music/recording studio in my house and could comfortably run that amp on 7-8 (on a volume scale of 1-12) in that 30'X10' room. Was it loud? Somewhat, but not uncomfortably so. If an amp of that power is too loud unmiced on a stage IMHO the venue is too small for amplified instruments altogether. I mean, am I wrong here? To begin with, true stage volume is such a subjective thing. Great tone to one person is far too loud to another, just a little too loud to someone else, and very comfortable to others. I've actually seen a person walk in front of a stage with their fingers in their ears at, get this, an acoustic gig!! And I've seen people do this for no other reason than to "show off" for their friends and try to draw attention to themselves. One soundman's perfect stage level is another's unworkable level.
Sometimes this is simply because the soundman is both inexperienced and unfamiliar with their equipment (eg. attenuation on the board). Sometimes it is simply because a player's stage volume is too loud.
There is a happy median there somewhere. The first thing IMO to consider is experience. Experience of the soundman and the band. If the band is highly experienced and the soundman is not, the soundman is going to immediately have credibility issues and may need to be respectfully educated as to what both the band and venue needs are. If, OTOH, both the band and soundman are experienced (i.e. "know their respective stuff") they need to make a reasonable effort to listen to each other and can, in the overwhelming majority of cases, arrive at a solution to about any sound issue. The other scenario, experienced soundman, inexperienced band, can be a difficult and touchy situation where the soundman is the respectful, patient, educator. If the inexperienced band is receptive to experienced suggestions and instruction they can learn a lot. If not, they may need to be once again, respectfully but firmly, told this is the way it is going to be if they want a gig here again. However, the key word here is "respectful". Nobody wants to be condescended to on either side of the stage.
If these simple principles are adhered to there is no reason most volume or other sound issues can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. But I do think it is very important for a band to know the experience level of a soundman to have some appreciation for his credibilty and vice versa. At least you have some idea of what you're dealing with and can react and adjust accordingly.
But I still find it hard to imagine anything but the smallest of venues where a tweed Deluxe or similar amp would be too loud. Maybe someone can educate me on this.

Tom

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by jumpnblues

OK, change of subjects sort of...guys maybe I'm suffering from hearing loss. I can't for the life of me imagine a scenario, save maybe a coffee shop sized venue, where a tweed Deluxe would be too much amp. I can see where it could be made to be too much amp if unnecessarily miced or something.

A lot of soundmen like amps to set where they MUST be amplified via to PA to reach the desired level. That way the soundman has the option to "turn down" the relative level of the amp instead of just being forced to bring the rest of the band up to meet the guitar amp volume. Particularly if the singer has weak pipes and needs their vocal mic run super hot. The louder that mic has to be (and the singer is always more important than the guitarist in this worldview), the greater the chance of feedback and bleed from the guitar amp.

Put it another way--listen to the radio. Note how little space the electric guitar takes up in most pop music? How the singer is as loud as the rest of the band combined? That's the sort of mix they're shooting for, and a Deluxe on 7 doesn't make that easier.

[jumpnblues]

tiktok,

I understand what you're saying. And it makes sense. It's been about 6 years since I had my Vicky Deluxe and I just don't remember it being that loud on "7". But, I'm old and you know what that does to a person's memory. Not to mention their hearing.

Tom

[DrewB]

Originally Posted by tiktok

A lot of soundmen like amps to set where they MUST be amplified via to PA to reach the desired level. That way the soundman has the option to "turn down" the relative level of the amp instead of just being forced to bring the rest of the band up to meet the guitar amp volume.

That's the way it should be, and all of us who "overamp" need to be sensitive to that. As has been said, if you need headroom, use an amp that will give you enough of it, but not too much. Your dirty sound shouldn't be much louder than that, in that case. If you need an occasion somewhat-clean sound during "dynamic" passages, you can get away with a dirtier amp that breaks up earlier and use your guitar's volume control.

Dynamics are what separate skilled bands from average bands. I just watched a DVD of a pick-up band I played a gig with a couple of months ago. There were a bunch of dynamic passages where one of the guitarists (not me, thankfully) didn't get "dynamic" with the rest of us, and it sounded like dog doo.

You wanna know how your band sounds mix-wise and overall? Get a board tape or a good-quality video of the performance. You'll know right away if a member, or members, is making a mess of things.