tonal differences between 5E3 and 5C3?

appar111 · August 3rd, 2007, 09:28 AM

I know that the 5C3 is the earlier version of the Tweed Deluxe, and it uses a 6SL7 instead of a 12AX7 for a preamp tube, but tonally what are the differences between a 5C3 and a 5E3?

I'm looking at having a kit amp built and the 5C3 looks like it'll do the job. For some reason I thought I'd be different and go w/ an earlier model deluxe w/ a different preamp tube other than the 12AX7. I know that I'm much more limited in decent 6SL7 choices, though.

tele-martini · August 3rd, 2007, 11:39 AM

appar111,
I was going to post asking the same type of question. I did some research on line and if I'm not mistaken the 5C1 was the earliest version followed by the 5C3 and then 5D1. After that came the 5E1 and 5F1 for the tweed era champs. I printed out the avaiable schematics and have been comparing the changes in design. I want to eventually scratch build a tweed era champ clone . I have no idea what tonal changes or improvements took place thru this time period. Is there a version thats praised more than others? Hope I didn't railroad your post but I think were both after the same info.
martini

JohnnyCrash · August 3rd, 2007, 12:11 PM

There was the "Model 26" Deluxe, then the TV Front 5A3 Deluxe, then the 5B3, 5C3, and 5D3, and then the 5E3.

6SJ7 tubes are also dual triodes, like 12A*7 types. Only thing is, they are 8 pin and may be more difficult to find good tonal varieties, whereas the 12A*7 there are many more manufacturers therefore you can "taste test" more of them, not to mention you can try lower gain 12A*7 varieties.

For this reason and others, I'd suggest going with a 5E3.

tele-martini · August 3rd, 2007, 01:38 PM

Looking thru the schematic and layout drawings I have for Tweed champs I see the 5E3 schematic I have is a Weber version. It list the transformers with Weber part numbers. This is where I have a little cunfusion. Did he take the original design and just add his tranny part numbers? Do amp kit suppliers follow the original fender schematics or do they take some liberties and add their own changes? Was the 5E3 the first Fender design to use the 12A*7 type preamp tube? Where do the 5D1 and 5F1 versions come into the picture? I know I'm asking a ton of questions but I'm very curious about this topic.
martini

JohnnyCrash · August 3rd, 2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tele-martini

Looking thru the schematic and layout drawings I have for Tweed champs I see the 5E3 schematic I have is a Weber version. It list the transformers with Weber part numbers. This is where I have a little cunfusion. Did he take the original design and just add his tranny part numbers? Do amp kit suppliers follow the original fender schematics or do they take some liberties and add their own changes?

As far as the tranny part number questions... I have no clue. Some of the vintage buffs here will probably know more about part numbering and how that relates to the kit guys these days.

Most kits are based on original schematics - some resistor values are no longer available in exact terms, but close modern values are close enough given tolerances to get proper voltages anyway. I have seen a few guys out there selling kits with popular mods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tele-martini

Was the 5E3 the first Fender design to use the 12A*7 type preamp tube? Where do the 5D1 and 5F1 versions come into the picture? I know I'm asking a ton of questions but I'm very curious about this topic.
martini

As far as the first Fender to use 12A*7 tubes, I'm not sure, but as far as the Deluxes - the 5D3 Deluxe was the first of the Deluxes to use 12A*7 tube types.

The 5D1 was the first non-Champion 600 Champ. 6JS7's were used in the preamp, the 5E1 and then 5F1's used 12AX7 and had actual proper eyelet boards.

appar111 · August 3rd, 2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

6SJ7 tubes are also dual triodes, like 12A*7 types. Only thing is, they are 8 pin and may be more difficult to find good tonal varieties, whereas the 12A*7 there are many more manufacturers therefore you can "taste test" more of them, not to mention you can try lower gain 12A*7 varieties.

For this reason and others, I'd suggest going with a 5E3.

Thanks for the advice, JC. Are there any tonal differences between 6SL7 (which is what's used in the 5C3) and a 12AX7? If a 6SL7 sounds more "tweedy" than a 12AX7, then I'm all for it. If not, then I may as well go for the 5E3 since I have some good 12AX7's, 5751's and 12AU7's lying around to taste test.

Natstrat79 · August 3rd, 2007, 05:20 PM

While Ive not had both the 5C3 deluxe and 5E3 deluxe. I did build a 5E3 clone and I currently own both a 1956 gibson GA-6 and a 1959 non-reverb Ampeg Rocket both of which are pretty much deluxes in Ampeg and Gibson clothing. The GA-6 has both a 12ay7 for the first preamp tube and a 6sl7 for the phase inverter. The circuit however Is almost Identical to a 5C3 despite the tube differences. Compared to a 5E3 it has more bark more overdrive more feedback. It can get really swampy and nasty and yet still cleans up really well with my G&L legacys volume control.

The ampeg rocket on the other hand uses all 6sl7 tubes for the preamp but the circuit is almost identical to the 5E3. Even with the octal tubes it sounds pretty close to what the 5E3 sounded like maybe just a tad rounder sounding a little fuller and more chime when clean.

I think the circuit makes more of a difference than the tube choice. The 5C3 has a slightly different phase inverter and no cathode bypass cap on the 6v6's. These two factors are where the sound of the 5C3 comes from in my opinion. I tried putting a cathode bypass cap on the 6v6s cathode resistor of my GA-6 and it sounded neutered, all the bark was gone.

Some "clones" of the 5C3 Ive seen use the 5E3 circuit and just change the tubes to some sort of octal variant whether it be 6sc7, 6sl7. While this will get you some of the octal fatness of sound it will not get as much as the swampy grind of an all out 5C3 amp. If the 5C3 sound is what your looking for make sure to compare schematics before you buy a kit.

Natstrat79 · August 3rd, 2007, 05:26 PM

Oh and I almost forgot another thing that sets the 5C3 apart from the 5E3 is the smooth cone jensen p12r speaker versus the ribbed cone of the 5E3's p12r. I'm not sure how to explain the difference tonally so maybe someone else can chime in. To me the straight cone sounds similar to the ribbed cone when the amp is clean but when the overdrive kicks in it seems to have a little more twang and more gritty primitive overdrive.

appar111 · August 3rd, 2007, 11:57 PM

I'm looking at one of the builders who use the Weber kit, so I'm wondering if the Weber schematic is a full-out 5C3 (which I hope it is), or whether it's a 5E3 circuit w/ a 6SL7 instead of a 12AX7.

Does anyone here with experience on tweed circuits and Weber amp kits know for sure?

JohnnyCrash · August 4th, 2007, 12:56 AM

You can check Weber's layouts on his site.

appar111 · August 4th, 2007, 07:49 AM

the problem is that I don't know the difference between an authentic 5C3 layout and one that is basically a 5E3 just modified to use an octal tube, so I wouldn't know what I was looking at.

Natstrat79 · August 4th, 2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by appar111

the problem is that I don't know the difference between an authentic 5C3 layout and one that is basically a 5E3 just modified to use an octal tube, so I wouldn't know what I was looking at.

Just ask here. Someone will be able to take a look at it for you if you have a schematic. I glanced at the weber, some of the values of components might be slightly different as I didn't check too closely but the basics to make the 5C3 sound are there, grid leak bias, fixed bias paraphase inverter. The only real difference I see is that the weber uses 6sl7 tubes whereas the original 5C3 uses 6sc7. This is no big deal however since there is no current production 6sc7 and really as I've said before the important part is getting the circuit right.

August 3rd, 2007, 09:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
appar111 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Age: 33 Posts: 1,273	tonal differences between 5E3 and 5C3? I know that the 5C3 is the earlier version of the Tweed Deluxe, and it uses a 6SL7 instead of a 12AX7 for a preamp tube, but tonally what are the differences between a 5C3 and a 5E3? I'm looking at having a kit amp built and the 5C3 looks like it'll do the job. For some reason I thought I'd be different and go w/ an earlier model deluxe w/ a different preamp tube other than the 12AX7. I know that I'm much more limited in decent 6SL7 choices, though.

August 3rd, 2007, 11:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
tele-martini Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Hilton, NY Age: 49 Posts: 899 11 Photos	appar111, I was going to post asking the same type of question. I did some research on line and if I'm not mistaken the 5C1 was the earliest version followed by the 5C3 and then 5D1. After that came the 5E1 and 5F1 for the tweed era champs. I printed out the avaiable schematics and have been comparing the changes in design. I want to eventually scratch build a tweed era champ clone . I have no idea what tonal changes or improvements took place thru this time period. Is there a version thats praised more than others? Hope I didn't railroad your post but I think were both after the same info. martini

August 3rd, 2007, 12:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	There was the "Model 26" Deluxe, then the TV Front 5A3 Deluxe, then the 5B3, 5C3, and 5D3, and then the 5E3. 6SJ7 tubes are also dual triodes, like 12A7 types. Only thing is, they are 8 pin and may be more difficult to find good tonal varieties, whereas the 12A7 there are many more manufacturers therefore you can "taste test" more of them, not to mention you can try lower gain 12A*7 varieties. For this reason and others, I'd suggest going with a 5E3.

August 3rd, 2007, 01:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
tele-martini Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Hilton, NY Age: 49 Posts: 899 11 Photos	Looking thru the schematic and layout drawings I have for Tweed champs I see the 5E3 schematic I have is a Weber version. It list the transformers with Weber part numbers. This is where I have a little cunfusion. Did he take the original design and just add his tranny part numbers? Do amp kit suppliers follow the original fender schematics or do they take some liberties and add their own changes? Was the 5E3 the first Fender design to use the 12A*7 type preamp tube? Where do the 5D1 and 5F1 versions come into the picture? I know I'm asking a ton of questions but I'm very curious about this topic. martini

August 3rd, 2007, 05:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
Natstrat79 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 124	While Ive not had both the 5C3 deluxe and 5E3 deluxe. I did build a 5E3 clone and I currently own both a 1956 gibson GA-6 and a 1959 non-reverb Ampeg Rocket both of which are pretty much deluxes in Ampeg and Gibson clothing. The GA-6 has both a 12ay7 for the first preamp tube and a 6sl7 for the phase inverter. The circuit however Is almost Identical to a 5C3 despite the tube differences. Compared to a 5E3 it has more bark more overdrive more feedback. It can get really swampy and nasty and yet still cleans up really well with my G&L legacys volume control. The ampeg rocket on the other hand uses all 6sl7 tubes for the preamp but the circuit is almost identical to the 5E3. Even with the octal tubes it sounds pretty close to what the 5E3 sounded like maybe just a tad rounder sounding a little fuller and more chime when clean. I think the circuit makes more of a difference than the tube choice. The 5C3 has a slightly different phase inverter and no cathode bypass cap on the 6v6's. These two factors are where the sound of the 5C3 comes from in my opinion. I tried putting a cathode bypass cap on the 6v6s cathode resistor of my GA-6 and it sounded neutered, all the bark was gone. Some "clones" of the 5C3 Ive seen use the 5E3 circuit and just change the tubes to some sort of octal variant whether it be 6sc7, 6sl7. While this will get you some of the octal fatness of sound it will not get as much as the swampy grind of an all out 5C3 amp. If the 5C3 sound is what your looking for make sure to compare schematics before you buy a kit.

August 3rd, 2007, 05:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
Natstrat79 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 124	Oh and I almost forgot another thing that sets the 5C3 apart from the 5E3 is the smooth cone jensen p12r speaker versus the ribbed cone of the 5E3's p12r. I'm not sure how to explain the difference tonally so maybe someone else can chime in. To me the straight cone sounds similar to the ribbed cone when the amp is clean but when the overdrive kicks in it seems to have a little more twang and more gritty primitive overdrive.

August 3rd, 2007, 11:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
appar111 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Age: 33 Posts: 1,273	I'm looking at one of the builders who use the Weber kit, so I'm wondering if the Weber schematic is a full-out 5C3 (which I hope it is), or whether it's a 5E3 circuit w/ a 6SL7 instead of a 12AX7. Does anyone here with experience on tweed circuits and Weber amp kits know for sure?

August 4th, 2007, 12:56 AM	#10 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	You can check Weber's layouts on his site.

August 4th, 2007, 07:49 AM	#11 (permalink)
appar111 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Age: 33 Posts: 1,273	the problem is that I don't know the difference between an authentic 5C3 layout and one that is basically a 5E3 just modified to use an octal tube, so I wouldn't know what I was looking at.