Tweed Super 5D4 VS. 5F4

Jason Collins · July 30th, 2007, 04:21 PM

I own a 1958 5F4 Super. It is a crazy beast. It has more gain than most Marshalls I have played. It is actually very modern sounding, and I am considering getting a 5D4 Super.

Can anyone compare the two versions of the Super? I want to get a vintage blues tone and find the 5F4 to be a bit too aggressive.

I may even build a 5D4 but I am curious about the amount of gain available and the overall punch of the earlier circuit?

Thanks, Jason

Wally · July 30th, 2007, 04:39 PM

That 5F4 has a preamp much like the 5F6A Bassman from which the first Marshalls were cloned...yes, it has some gain. If I were you, I would try a
12AY7 in the V2 position. You could also try a 1500 ohm resistor in the first bypass to lower the gain a bit.
If that did not tame it enough, try a 12AT7 in the phase inverter (V3) position. I would also check the power tube bias. A GZ34 in the rectifier would increase voltages a bit and maybe 'de-brown' the sound??
The 5D4 does have the tone stack in bewteen the first two gain stages which would decrease gain quite a bit in the preamp. LIke the 5F6A, the 5F4 has the tone stack after the second gain stage, and therefore has some hotter preamp signal going on.
All that said, the question arises...what classic blues tone? Much great blues music has been made with hot tweed type preamps....Buddy Guy is a big 5F6A user. Clapton's 'bluesbreaker' was essentially a tweed BAssman. Clapton is using the lo-po '57 Tweed Twin these days.
If you are going for SRV/B.B.King/Robert CRay/....most of those tones lean toward BF Fender Reverb soncis. Tweeds...any tweed...don't do that.

Bob Arbogast · July 30th, 2007, 05:29 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by gain. Do you mean simple voltage gain, as in the amp gets really loud? Or do you mean overdrive/distortion, as in the tone gets saturated? I have a 5F4 Super clone, and I would say the amp is more about loud than it is about saturation.

Regarding the references to the 5F6A Bassman, the 5F4 Super is quite different from input to output. Smaller V1 cathode bypass cap, completely different tone circuit, split load phase inverter, both the plates and the screens of the output tubes fed from the output of the choke. In terms of circuit topology, the Super is much closer to the 5E6A Bassman or the 5E8A Twin.

As for the 5D4, looking at the schematic, I would expect the amp to be not as loud nor as aggressive as the 5F4.

Bob Arbogast

Jason Collins · July 30th, 2007, 05:33 PM

Thanks for the quick reply Wally,

I should have been more specific. I mean old school blues tone such as
T bone Walker, Jimmy Reed, early B.B. King etc. I have owned and played most blackface models and I am not a fan of that tone.

I am thinking that maybe I would like an old TV front or widepanel tweed with a paraphase inverter and cathode bias. A little looser and more greasy so to speak!

Jason

Wally · August 1st, 2007, 10:22 AM

Bob, I was referring to the preamp gain before the PI. Yes, the 5F6A has a larger bypass cap and a smaller bypass resistance than does the 5F4. That said, the p lacement of the tone stack and the effect of that on the preamp gain is what I am referring to.
Jason, okay, I understand that. Have you ever tried an old Pro..5B5, 5C5???

Jason Collins · August 1st, 2007, 10:43 AM

Hey Wally,

No I haven't had the pleasure of playing and tweeds prior to 1958.
I am begining to think that the whole fixed bias, long tail phase inverter setup may not be for me. I can never get that early sound out of the later tweeds and although it is still a fantastic sound it is very tight with a quick attack and I think I might enjoy the more primitive sound. I would love to hear some clips of some early tweeds.

Thanks, Jason

Wally · August 1st, 2007, 11:03 AM

Out of curiousity, what guitar and effects if any are you using?

Jason Collins · August 1st, 2007, 11:35 AM

Wally,

I don't use effects really. Occasionally I will use a vintage analog delay or overdirve box. I use a Clark Gainster or a custom made tube overdrive.
I tend to prefer to plug straight in. This is why I am so interested in the overall tone and response of the amp by itself.

Jason

Wally · August 1st, 2007, 11:50 AM

And the guitar????? Gibson P-90's and/or humbuckers hit those amps with a bigger voltage than does a Tele. Most..not all...of the music you noted was made on Gibsons. I have seen a very old picture of B.B. with a Tele and a Pro.
Are you a fan of 'Live at the REgal'? I have a '63 1`X15" Pro....I am told that that amp is what B.B. used for that show. I have a '52 Pro with 6SC7 preamps....killer amp. I have a '51 Pro TV front going back together....I need to get it recovered and it will be done. I am anxious to hear that one. They both push P15N's.

Jason Collins · August 1st, 2007, 11:55 AM

Oops!

The guitars I use are a 1958 Les Paul jr ( modded for humbuckers ), Ash Tele with a real 1956 bridge pickup, and a 1964 Melody Maker with a single p-90.

Jason

mad dog · August 1st, 2007, 02:46 PM

Jason: If you could somehow get a fixed/cathode switchable bias scheme in that Super, you'd have the best of both worlds. The 5F4 is fixed, yes? don't know if it's possible with that, but I did do that with a tweed pro type amp, the Sewell Wampus Cat. The WC in stock form is cathode bias ... it's sort of of a blend of the earlier, 5C5/5D5 pro with the later narrow panel circuit. Anyway, that switch is the best. Cathode is for the older tweed sound, a dense, juicy kind of saturation as you turn up. Fixed makes it louder, tighter, more definition, especially in the bass. Both modes sound so fine ... made an already great amp even more versatile.

You may also be able to swap out rectifier tubes. don't know what is possible or recommended with that amp, but rectifier tube choice can pretty noticeably change sound in other amps. Might be worth a try. If that super is fixed you'd no doubt have to rebias after a rect tube change.

Jason Collins · August 1st, 2007, 03:28 PM

Mad Dog

I guess I could wire up the cathode/fixed switching up to my unused ground switch? Do you know whrere I could get a wiring diagram
for the cathode/fixed circuit?

Thanks for the suggestion!
Jason

mad dog · August 4th, 2007, 11:09 AM

Jason: Sorry for the late return on this. I'm not tech savvy enough to help here. My tech did the fixed/cathode bias switch for me. I think it's pretty common to add a fixed option to stock cathode bias amps ... not sure how difficult it is to add cathode to fixed. A good amp tech would know.

July 30th, 2007, 04:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jason Collins TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 13	Tweed Super 5D4 VS. 5F4 I own a 1958 5F4 Super. It is a crazy beast. It has more gain than most Marshalls I have played. It is actually very modern sounding, and I am considering getting a 5D4 Super. Can anyone compare the two versions of the Super? I want to get a vintage blues tone and find the 5F4 to be a bit too aggressive. I may even build a 5D4 but I am curious about the amount of gain available and the overall punch of the earlier circuit? Thanks, Jason

July 30th, 2007, 05:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bob Arbogast Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA Age: 48 Posts: 474	I'm not sure what you mean by gain. Do you mean simple voltage gain, as in the amp gets really loud? Or do you mean overdrive/distortion, as in the tone gets saturated? I have a 5F4 Super clone, and I would say the amp is more about loud than it is about saturation. Regarding the references to the 5F6A Bassman, the 5F4 Super is quite different from input to output. Smaller V1 cathode bypass cap, completely different tone circuit, split load phase inverter, both the plates and the screens of the output tubes fed from the output of the choke. In terms of circuit topology, the Super is much closer to the 5E6A Bassman or the 5E8A Twin. As for the 5D4, looking at the schematic, I would expect the amp to be not as loud nor as aggressive as the 5F4. Bob Arbogast __________________ "Wagner's music is better than it sounds." -- Mark Twain

July 30th, 2007, 04:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,624	That 5F4 has a preamp much like the 5F6A Bassman from which the first Marshalls were cloned...yes, it has some gain. If I were you, I would try a 12AY7 in the V2 position. You could also try a 1500 ohm resistor in the first bypass to lower the gain a bit. If that did not tame it enough, try a 12AT7 in the phase inverter (V3) position. I would also check the power tube bias. A GZ34 in the rectifier would increase voltages a bit and maybe 'de-brown' the sound?? The 5D4 does have the tone stack in bewteen the first two gain stages which would decrease gain quite a bit in the preamp. LIke the 5F6A, the 5F4 has the tone stack after the second gain stage, and therefore has some hotter preamp signal going on. All that said, the question arises...what classic blues tone? Much great blues music has been made with hot tweed type preamps....Buddy Guy is a big 5F6A user. Clapton's 'bluesbreaker' was essentially a tweed BAssman. Clapton is using the lo-po '57 Tweed Twin these days. If you are going for SRV/B.B.King/Robert CRay/....most of those tones lean toward BF Fender Reverb soncis. Tweeds...any tweed...don't do that.

July 30th, 2007, 05:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
Jason Collins TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 13	Thanks for the quick reply Wally, I should have been more specific. I mean old school blues tone such as T bone Walker, Jimmy Reed, early B.B. King etc. I have owned and played most blackface models and I am not a fan of that tone. I am thinking that maybe I would like an old TV front or widepanel tweed with a paraphase inverter and cathode bias. A little looser and more greasy so to speak! Jason

August 1st, 2007, 10:22 AM	#5 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,624	Bob, I was referring to the preamp gain before the PI. Yes, the 5F6A has a larger bypass cap and a smaller bypass resistance than does the 5F4. That said, the p lacement of the tone stack and the effect of that on the preamp gain is what I am referring to. Jason, okay, I understand that. Have you ever tried an old Pro..5B5, 5C5???

August 1st, 2007, 10:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
Jason Collins TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 13	Hey Wally, No I haven't had the pleasure of playing and tweeds prior to 1958. I am begining to think that the whole fixed bias, long tail phase inverter setup may not be for me. I can never get that early sound out of the later tweeds and although it is still a fantastic sound it is very tight with a quick attack and I think I might enjoy the more primitive sound. I would love to hear some clips of some early tweeds. Thanks, Jason

August 1st, 2007, 11:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,624	Out of curiousity, what guitar and effects if any are you using?

August 1st, 2007, 11:35 AM	#8 (permalink)
Jason Collins TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 13	Wally, I don't use effects really. Occasionally I will use a vintage analog delay or overdirve box. I use a Clark Gainster or a custom made tube overdrive. I tend to prefer to plug straight in. This is why I am so interested in the overall tone and response of the amp by itself. Jason

August 1st, 2007, 11:50 AM	#9 (permalink)
Wally Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,624	And the guitar????? Gibson P-90's and/or humbuckers hit those amps with a bigger voltage than does a Tele. Most..not all...of the music you noted was made on Gibsons. I have seen a very old picture of B.B. with a Tele and a Pro. Are you a fan of 'Live at the REgal'? I have a '63 1`X15" Pro....I am told that that amp is what B.B. used for that show. I have a '52 Pro with 6SC7 preamps....killer amp. I have a '51 Pro TV front going back together....I need to get it recovered and it will be done. I am anxious to hear that one. They both push P15N's.

August 1st, 2007, 11:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jason Collins TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 13	Oops! The guitars I use are a 1958 Les Paul jr ( modded for humbuckers ), Ash Tele with a real 1956 bridge pickup, and a 1964 Melody Maker with a single p-90. Jason

August 1st, 2007, 02:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
mad dog Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 705	Jason: If you could somehow get a fixed/cathode switchable bias scheme in that Super, you'd have the best of both worlds. The 5F4 is fixed, yes? don't know if it's possible with that, but I did do that with a tweed pro type amp, the Sewell Wampus Cat. The WC in stock form is cathode bias ... it's sort of of a blend of the earlier, 5C5/5D5 pro with the later narrow panel circuit. Anyway, that switch is the best. Cathode is for the older tweed sound, a dense, juicy kind of saturation as you turn up. Fixed makes it louder, tighter, more definition, especially in the bass. Both modes sound so fine ... made an already great amp even more versatile. You may also be able to swap out rectifier tubes. don't know what is possible or recommended with that amp, but rectifier tube choice can pretty noticeably change sound in other amps. Might be worth a try. If that super is fixed you'd no doubt have to rebias after a rect tube change.

August 1st, 2007, 03:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
Jason Collins TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 13	Mad Dog I guess I could wire up the cathode/fixed switching up to my unused ground switch? Do you know whrere I could get a wiring diagram for the cathode/fixed circuit? Thanks for the suggestion! Jason

August 4th, 2007, 11:09 AM	#13 (permalink)
mad dog Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 705	Jason: Sorry for the late return on this. I'm not tech savvy enough to help here. My tech did the fixed/cathode bias switch for me. I think it's pretty common to add a fixed option to stock cathode bias amps ... not sure how difficult it is to add cathode to fixed. A good amp tech would know.