CryoTreated Vacuum Tubes?

[bowlfreshener]

This is the first I have heard of this, does anybody know if its legit or just hype?
http://cgi.ebay.com/JJ-ECC83S-12AX7-...QQcmdZViewItem

If its legit, I never knew tubes could withstand going 300 degrees below zero....

[Tremo]

I would be concerned with overstressing the glass-metal seals from too much differential thermal contraction at the extreme low temp.

I'd like to hear a technical scientific, no BS explanation of what this is supposed to do.

[jabsalt]

duped..........cannot delete

[jabsalt]

supposedly it causes the molecules to settle down and therefore be more stable, but from what i read there really is no discernible difference. it's a waste of money

[stxrus]

as a born again skeptic(sic?) i gotta call BS. more snake oil, smoke and mirrors. it may be measurable on a scope but the average human will never know the difference.

if i'm wrong i'll pony up, but til then B.S.

steve

[BrianF]

I've got some cryogenically treated guitar picks and strings to sell

[Tremo]

Originally Posted by jabsalt

supposedly it causes the molecules to settle down and therefore be more stable, but from what i read there really is no discernible difference. it's a waste of money

"Causes the molecules to 'settle down'"? Now just what in blazes does that really mean?

[sumed]

http://www.300below.com/press/magazi...arch-2000.html

[scooteraz]

On the surface this would seem to be bs. As the referenced article noted, there are certian things that are "better" with cryogenic processing. Note, these were all wear items (tools, engines, etc.) Tht is because much like other types of temperature treatement (usually called "heat treatment") this changes the crystaline structure of the metal alloy. Most alloys can have several crystaline structures, and usually one is better for wear, and sometimes another for strength. All depends on the base metal and the alloying elements. The crystal shapes have names like "body centered cubic" or "face centered cubic". In steel, some crystaline structures are called "martinsite" or "austinite". Martinsitic steels tend to have better wear characteristics. Austinitic stainless tends to have good chemical resistance.

Some of you may have seen aluminum alloys like 6061T6. The "T6" refers to a specific temperature regime in the heat treat. The brand name of tools "true temper" came from the idea that steel was hardened by heating and rapid cooling, then was softened just a little (tempered) on the surface so as not to be so brittle. We have all seen the movies of the master samuri sword maker quenching the red hot blade in oil or water. The quench is to keep the metal crystals in a certian state.

Cryo is a similar process, just lower temperatures. Benelli uses cryo for their shotgun barrels, and supposedly those barrels remain true longer (mechanical wear item). I believe dean markley tempers steel strings with a cryo process. Another mechanical wear item that might benefit from the wear standpoint.

Where is the mechanical wear in a tube (or as the Brits would have it, thermionic valve)? It is an electrical device with no (intensionally) moving parts. I guess you could look at the thermal expansion and contraction of the internals of the tube, but there is not a lot of differential motion there, so no wear. Electrons don't wear. And specific crystaline structures do not enhance electron movement, per se. And, cryo does not help the glass (glass is amorphous, not crystaline, in structure). You are left with the pins, and really those only get a couple of uses over the life of the tube. So, cyro tubes are probably just a sales gimmick. But one could test. Get a couple and a couple of identical JJ tubes that are not cryo'd. Have someone else install the tubes at random in the amp, and see if you hear a difference when you don't know.

I doubt one will. Not saying that it is impossible because of a mechanism I understand poorly, but I am doubting it.

[BrassNut]

Callaham seems to think cryo is the bomb..........

CallahamCryo

But for tubes, I think Tremo hit the nail on the head:

Originally Posted by Tremo

I would be concerned with overstressing the glass-metal seals from too much differential thermal contraction at the extreme low temp.

[Scotland]

http://www.watfordvalves.com/reports.asp
They have been selling cryo valves here for a couple of years and have had great reviews. Guitarist magazine traditionally slams any "snake oil" invention but gave a great write up on this one. I have not tried any yet but I'm going to order a couple of pre-amp ones purely as a test. I'll let you know how I feel about them once they arrive.

[Tremo]

A lot of info on cryo treating tools, and some sales marketing copy. Still not ONE scientific explanation of what it does for tubes.

[gotdabluz]

I would think that any benefit from cryo treatment would be broken the first time you get 'em hot . . . and tubes will get hot eh?

bs, say I . . . and I don't need no scientific babbledy-book to convince me one way or t'other

[Big Mike Simpson]

Originally Posted by scooteraz

I believe dean markley tempers steel strings with a cryo process. Another mechanical wear item that might benefit from the wear standpoint.

Ya... they call them "Blue Steel"... I call them "BS" I bought some one time and before the E string was up to pitch it broke... the seller (Milano's Music) would not replace them. You can not get 1 Cyro BS string as a replacement. I never bought them again. I have never broken an E string before or since so I don't think it was me or the guitar.

[fourthrock]

Originally Posted by stxrus

it may be measurable on a scope but the average human will never know the difference.

it sounds like you are voicing a belief that you have about subtle hearing differences without having heard the tubes yourself, or without reference to others who claim to have heard differences.

[tdowns]

I don't know how I could sleep at night after doing such a thing.

[boris bubbanov]

I'm inclined to think the treatment helps the metals, harms the glass.
But the glass is not a moving part of the valve, it just seals, insulates and protects the working parts. So, I wouldn't write it off, it deserves a chance, just be gentle with them things.

I like a little art and a little mojo mixed in with my guitars and amps. I save my skepticism for jet aircraft and large buildings and bridges built without tried and documented engineering foundations.

Bubbanov

[SMPTE]

All my experience with tubes (used in transmitters etc.) makes me think it's pure BS. When I first heard about this I emailed some guys I work with (couple hundred years of transmitter maint. between the group of them) and they laughed hysterically and then started makin' fun of me for falling for it.

Cryo only helps with things that wear (car brakes for example), it does NOTHING for tubes. If it did people with much much bigger power requirements than our little amps would be doing it, and they're not.

[stxrus]

Originally Posted by fourthrock

it sounds like you are voicing a belief that you have about subtle hearing differences without having heard the tubes yourself, or without reference to others who claim to have heard differences.

and your point is?

steve

[fierce_carrot]

Cryo DOES work, and thats why everybody from the military to the largest funded racing teams use it. I have no experience with cryo regarding vacuum tubes but I see no reason why it wouldn't be as effective with them as it has been with other applications.

When people don't understand something the first thing they usually do is try to belittle it, they've been doing that long before they thought the earth was round.

[1293]

Originally Posted by fierce_carrot

When people don't understand something the first thing they usually do is try to belittle it, they've been doing that long before they thought the earth was round.

Don't tell me you really believe all that "round earth" BS?

[SMPTE]

Originally Posted by fierce_carrot

Cryo DOES work, and thats why everybody from the military to the largest funded racing teams use it. I have no experience with cryo regarding vacuum tubes but I see no reason why it wouldn't be as effective with them as it has been with other applications.

When people don't understand something the first thing they usually do is try to belittle it, they've been doing that long before they thought the earth was round.

It works great for mechanical interactions, i.e. brake rotors, piston rings, artillery breechs , rifle actions etc.

Cryo freezing the plates on a tube won't make the electrons flow differently so it's not going to do anything. It's marketeering pure and simple. If it did anything somebody would have frozen a klystron by now and would be selling it to transmitter guys. They have much bigger budgets than we do...

[soma5]

Originally Posted by Tremo

"Causes the molecules to 'settle down'"? Now just what in blazes does that really mean?

It's so they won't be as boisterous, as molecules are wont to be.

[stxrus]

Originally Posted by SMPTE

Cryo freezing the plates on a tube won't make the electrons flow differently so it's not going to do anything. It's marketeering pure and simple. If it did anything somebody would have frozen a klystron by now and would be selling it to transmitter guys. They have much bigger budgets than we do...

that would make more than 1 chief engineer happy.

you can call me Never Twice the Same Color

steve

[Stuco]

I think its just a way to get you to spend more money on tubes

[6942]

I always put my new tubes in the fridge on top of aluminum beer cans.
English beer: Rolled off high end.
Mexican beer: Exaggerated midrange.
Canadian Beer: Cold sounding.
Jamaican Beer: Extended highs.
German Beer: Bloated bass.
American Beer: Thin sounding.

Steve

[SMPTE]

Originally Posted by stxrus

that would make more than 1 chief engineer happy.

you can call me Never Twice the Same Color

steve

you're not kiddin'. Chiefs get downright weepy over any way to keep from having to replace tubes or some way to get exactly 100% on their transmitter A pattern.

and you can call me Never The Same Color.. twice!

[jabsalt]

Originally Posted by Tremo

"Causes the molecules to 'settle down'"? Now just what in blazes does that really mean?

just a layman's term to explain what they are supposed to be doing. not my opinion I think it's all bolony, i don't think half the people out there can ever tell the difference.............

[Scotland]

Well a cryo EC83 arrived today so I put it in V2 of my Twin, know what....not a blind bit of difference. As I thought..and most here thought, it's a load of B.S. I had to buy one though, just to satisfy me. Glad I didn't go for a full set !!

[winny pooh]

I read the British "Guitarist" magazine review and they were just repeating Watford's sales pitch. That magazine has had many lame reviews, mostly due to lack of cool gear and experienced , jaded reviewers.
"Guitar Player" I have found to be way more trustworthy about such things.

As for the cryo and similar claims:

Why has no one bought two identical univalves or whatever and actually done a blind AB test?

It is ridiculous to be accurate about a tube's response when you let the valves cool, replace them and play them hours later when your ears and mind would hear other things.