Hot Rod Deluxe = Can of Worms?

[detuned]

Originally Posted by Wally

Anyhow...out of friendly curiousity, what amp did you choose to use after you got rid of your good friend the HRD?

A (world's longest amp name:) Dr. Z Maz Jr 18 Watt NR (No Reverb) 2X10" combo

Nice amp. Single channel, kind of a Vox-meets-Marshall-meets-tweed-meets-BF Deluxe kind of thing. I refer to it as a reverse modeller - any sound you want, just one at a time.

It's relatively easy to heft (like the HRD), loud (like the HRD), & sounds great. I don't like to compare it to the HRD too much though, I mean, one is factory assembled & cost me $475 used, while the other was hand built & cost $1100 used. Apples, meet oranges.

Originally Posted by Wally

Peace all 'round.

Word.

[highwayone3tone]

Originally Posted by detuned

A (world's longest amp name:) Dr. Z Maz Jr 18 Watt NR (No Reverb) 2X10" combo

Nice amp. Single channel, kind of a Vox-meets-Marshall-meets-tweed-meets-BF Deluxe kind of thing. I refer to it as a reverse modeller - any sound you want, just one at a time.

It's relatively easy to heft (like the HRD), loud (like the HRD), & sounds great. I don't like to compare it to the HRD too much though, I mean, one is factory assembled & cost me $475 used, while the other was hand built & cost $1100 used. Apples, meet oranges.



Word.

Dr Z amps intrigue me, but my wallet laughs at me every time I think about one.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Save a little more money...get a tweed deluxe clone. You wont be sorry. Its small portable, all tube, 12' speaker, sounds sweet clean and awsome cranked. Takes any effects pedals well....can be miked for large venues. I love mine. I also play classic rock and blues this little amp is the best purchase I made in years.

I agree 169 percent with this psot.

[highwayone3tone]

Originally Posted by petebradt

I agree 169 percent with this psot.

I assume that I'll have to turn to the used market for a stab at this amp? I looked around and didn't find any on the usual spots that I shop for new amps.

[petebradt]

Most Tweed Deluxe clones are internet purchases.

Check out www.hullettamps.com or
http://www.cpamps.com/

I can personally vouch for Clay Hullett, his Deluxed is one of the best amps I've ever played through. Totally satisfied customer here.

[BobbyB]

If you dont want a kit... http://store.marshamps.com/product_i...roducts_id=152

[Leon Grizzard]

I got my new Guitar Player yesterday. There is a 50ish watt amp under $600 (I think) shootout. All their reviewers liked the HRD, with it being the hands down best clean tone amp, and all of them really dug the reverb.

I sure like mine.

[Tele-phone man]

quote:
There is nothing untrue about my statements. Experienced ears will know from listening how this amp does the OD and the reverb. Check the schematic
and you will find the chips and diodes in the drive section and in the reverb section.
Whether or not one can hear the results of this type of circuit is another question.
AS to the statement about the number of preamp tubes that are necessary to achieve all-tube processing with OD and reverb, there is nothing untrue about it. If it were possible to do tube OD and reverb with 3 preamp tubes, manufacturers would do so instead of using chips and diode(solid state devices). The first amp of this type that I encountered was the JCM 900 high gain dual reverb. My tech at the time and a talented soundman (Point Blank, Reba MacIntyre national tour, etc) was running sound for a rock group in a club here. The guitarist was raving about his new Marshall. This was when the JCM 900's first came out. He said it was the beest tube amp that he had ever played. My friend noted that it didn't sound like an all tube amp. They 'discussed' the matter. My tech said that he would put money that the amp did OD and reverb through TL072 IC's. In fact, those are the chips that drive those functions. There are 9 or 13..I forget which...of them in the amp. Some do switching, but the OD and reverb are SS driven.
I have never seen an amp that processes reverb and OD through tubes that has leess than 5 preamp tubes.....Mesa, Rivera, etc. IF the amp has 3 preamp tubes and does OD and reverb, you can be assured even if you can't hear the solid state 'qualities' of these functions, that SS devices drive the OD and the reverb. In the HRD, you will see 2 4568's and some diodes in the Drive functions. It is true that the signal is routed from a tube to the SS devices that do the OD and then returns to a tube, but the OD is SS driven. In the reverb, you will see two TL072's.
I am not condemning this or any other amp for using the less expensive route to achieving these functions. I simply think that people who haven't heard the difference should know the difference....especially since they are sold on the 'all-tube' hype when the amp is marketed to them. It takes time and experience to hear the difference even without the misrepresentation.

Wally,

I have to side with Detuned on this one. While it's true that the JCM900 had clipping diodes in the signal path, it is also true that if you avoid the effects loop and the reverb circuit, the HRD amp signal path is ALL tube. The FETs are used purely as switches to bring some other components (primarily capacitors) into and out of the circuit. The diodes are used to keep the gate voltage on the FETs at the correct polarity. The same result could have been achieved with relays, but the cost would have been much higher. Neither the FETs nor the diodes are used as amplifiers or clippers in any way. You cannot "hear" them. This is a fact, not an opinion.

The next statement is my opinion: You cannot "hear" the op-amp in the effects loop. These circuits are extremely transparent, and if you really think that you can tell the difference between a well-designed solid-state buffered effects loop from a tube-driven effects loop, you are delusional. You may be fooling yourself, but don't believe for a moment you are fooling me. I've been around this game too long and have heard (and debunked) way too many unsubstantiated claims from tube snobs to be willing to listen to any universal statements such as the ones you've laid on us.

As Detuned said, if it sounds good, it is good. Some solid-state circuits sound fantastic, some tube circuits sound like ****, and vice-versa. Ever try a Pritchard amp? They will make you question all your assumptions about the inherent superiority of tube amps.

[JohnnyCrash]

All it boils down to is:

Do you like it?

With threads like this many people begin to influence your opinion before you even know it. Then comes in the "its not all 110% tube" arguments that make you feel its less than an... amp.

Forget everything you just read. Does it make the sounds you want? Then its your amp.

I love tweed sounds (who knows how many tweed Fender clones I've built) - I also dig old Marshall sounds (built a few there as well) - I also dig BF Fender sounds (played quite a few, but actually just built my first)... but for some rare tracks an OD pedal and a non-tube SolidState amp get the sound the track wants/needs.

Get what YOU want and need. After all of my tube snobbery and building of many all-tube classic circuits - my main gigging amp is a Marshall DSL100. Why? I need a Clean (w/Reverb) and Dirty in one amp... the Clean doesn't need to be great, but the dirt has to be "classic" Marshall (to me, that means JCM800 style)... the amp can do JCM800 style dirt with a lead boost - or when fiddled with, a Clean and a Dirty. For recording, I've used everything I have - including SS amps!

[Tim Armstrong]

Then there's a few OTHER options, just to muddy the waters a little bit (gotta love Muddy Waters!).

Look at the Fender '65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue (known around here as a DRRI). Really a fine amp, and very pedal-friendly. Wonderful clean Fender tone, and really sweet reverb (and trippy tremelo, for that Creedance "Born on the Bayou" kinda tone). Add an overdrive or distortion pedal of your choice and you'll be good to go.

Or...try the Vox AD30VT, which is a mostly solid-state modeling amp, but to my ears hands down the most natural-sounding one available. My brother, who's been playing electric guitar exclusively through tube amps (mostly Fender) for just about forty years, bought one as a backup to his DRRI, and much to his and my surprise, it's his main gigging amp now. Heaven knows, the price is quite nice, too!

Cheers, Tim

[highwayone3tone]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Then there's a few OTHER options, just to muddy the waters a little bit (gotta love Muddy Waters!).

Look at the Fender '65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue (known around here as a DRRI). Really a fine amp, and very pedal-friendly. Wonderful clean Fender tone, and really sweet reverb (and trippy tremelo, for that Creedance "Born on the Bayou" kinda tone). Add an overdrive or distortion pedal of your choice and you'll be good to go.

Or...try the Vox AD30VT, which is a mostly solid-state modeling amp, but to my ears hands down the most natural-sounding one available. My brother, who's been playing electric guitar exclusively through tube amps (mostly Fender) for just about forty years, bought one as a backup to his DRRI, and much to his and my surprise, it's his main gigging amp now. Heaven knows, the price is quite nice, too!

Cheers, Tim

Good advice that was already taken long ago. I already have an AD30VT. And I love it. I'm just looking for a nice mid-range tube amp to compliment it. :)

I have appreciated all the opinions and responses in this thread. I still don't know exactly what I'll do, but I don't have the money put together yet anyway, so for now I can just wait and keep trying things out. :)

[Easydog]

All it boils down to is:

Do you like it?

With threads like this many people begin to influence your opinion before you even know it. Then comes in the "its not all 110% tube" arguments that make you feel its less than an... amp.

Forget everything you just read. Does it make the sounds you want? Then its your amp.
Johnny Crash
---------------------------------
Johnnys right. +1
(hes always right,it seems) HRDX is NOT a bad amp, I am happy w/ my USA, and dont worry abt the SS recto. just go play 'em- as many as you can to see what you like.
Easydog

[david henman]

...there IS a cure for the hrd.

its called the traynor ycv40wr.

same price, but no comparison in terms of tone, build quality etc.

-dh

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Tele-phone man

quote:
There is nothing untrue about my statements. Experienced ears will know from listening how this amp does the OD and the reverb. Check the schematic
and you will find the chips and diodes in the drive section and in the reverb section.
Whether or not one can hear the results of this type of circuit is another question.
AS to the statement about the number of preamp tubes that are necessary to achieve all-tube processing with OD and reverb, there is nothing untrue about it. If it were possible to do tube OD and reverb with 3 preamp tubes, manufacturers would do so instead of using chips and diode(solid state devices). The first amp of this type that I encountered was the JCM 900 high gain dual reverb. My tech at the time and a talented soundman (Point Blank, Reba MacIntyre national tour, etc) was running sound for a rock group in a club here. The guitarist was raving about his new Marshall. This was when the JCM 900's first came out. He said it was the beest tube amp that he had ever played. My friend noted that it didn't sound like an all tube amp. They 'discussed' the matter. My tech said that he would put money that the amp did OD and reverb through TL072 IC's. In fact, those are the chips that drive those functions. There are 9 or 13..I forget which...of them in the amp. Some do switching, but the OD and reverb are SS driven.
I have never seen an amp that processes reverb and OD through tubes that has leess than 5 preamp tubes.....Mesa, Rivera, etc. IF the amp has 3 preamp tubes and does OD and reverb, you can be assured even if you can't hear the solid state 'qualities' of these functions, that SS devices drive the OD and the reverb. In the HRD, you will see 2 4568's and some diodes in the Drive functions. It is true that the signal is routed from a tube to the SS devices that do the OD and then returns to a tube, but the OD is SS driven. In the reverb, you will see two TL072's.
I am not condemning this or any other amp for using the less expensive route to achieving these functions. I simply think that people who haven't heard the difference should know the difference....especially since they are sold on the 'all-tube' hype when the amp is marketed to them. It takes time and experience to hear the difference even without the misrepresentation.

Wally,

I have to side with Detuned on this one. While it's true that the JCM900 had clipping diodes in the signal path, it is also true that if you avoid the effects loop and the reverb circuit, the HRD amp signal path is ALL tube. The FETs are used purely as switches to bring some other components (primarily capacitors) into and out of the circuit. The diodes are used to keep the gate voltage on the FETs at the correct polarity. The same result could have been achieved with relays, but the cost would have been much higher. Neither the FETs nor the diodes are used as amplifiers or clippers in any way. You cannot "hear" them. This is a fact, not an opinion.

The next statement is my opinion: You cannot "hear" the op-amp in the effects loop. These circuits are extremely transparent, and if you really think that you can tell the difference between a well-designed solid-state buffered effects loop from a tube-driven effects loop, you are delusional. You may be fooling yourself, but don't believe for a moment you are fooling me. I've been around this game too long and have heard (and debunked) way too many unsubstantiated claims from tube snobs to be willing to listen to any universal statements such as the ones you've laid on us.

As Detuned said, if it sounds good, it is good. Some solid-state circuits sound fantastic, some tube circuits sound like ****, and vice-versa. Ever try a Pritchard amp? They will make you question all your assumptions about the inherent superiority of tube amps.

Telephone man, thanks for straightening me out on the signal path of the OD functions in the HRD. I will accept that those SS devices do not contribute to the sonics in the OD. I stand corrected. I guess I just don't care for the results of the OD functions.
The reverb is SS driven and recovered. That I hear and do not care for. Personal taste acquired over 44 years of experience with tube and SS reverb.
Ilike it wet and warm..not cold and harsh. YMMV. For sure, if there is a problem in the reverb circuit, replacing a tube will not be one of the possible cures.
I stand by my assertion that if you find an amp with OD and reverb, you will count more than 3 12A_7 type tubes in the circuit. IF the HRD did its tube OD and reverb in the tube domain, it would require 3 more stages...and that is 2 more 12A_7(two triodes per tube) tubes, right? Count 'em....5 tubes is what it takes. That is what you will find in a Rivera that does these functions. A boogie 'all tube' will use 5 tubes to process OD and reverb in the tube domain.
So, we all agree that the HRD is not an 'all-tube' amp as every Fender customer with which I have come into contact has been told by the dealer, right? I hear it in the reverb....so I never use it when I am plugged into one.
As I stated in my first post, the straight ahead sonics out of this amp are acceptable. I have issue with the build quality. Others don't. I have seen worse amp to work on....but I have seen many modern amps that are more accessible and more durable.
I agree with the 'if it works for you, go for it' thing. My only problem is that unsuspecting buyers are being told that these are 'all tube' amps....and the amps are not. Whether or not the SS processing is an issue for someone, imho the basic untruth of the 'all tube' claim' should be. But, hey, this is the day of obfuscation, misrepresentation.... Without revelation, the lies will stand as truth.
Ya'll have a good one....

[Dacious]

Every week I get to compare my SF Vibrolux Reverb with my bandmate's 2 x 12 HR Deville. His amp does not sound terrible. But you'd have to have cloth ears indeed if you couldn't hear the diff.

It is partly the reverb, it sounds like a digital delay pedal I have, and appears to mainly work on the top end of the frequency range. So it is shrill, and very harsh if he turns it up. I'ver heard reverb in a PV Classic 50 that sounded much more natural so it is possible with chips.

In contrast mine sounds so surfy, even with the short pan, that you start feeling seasick past 4! If he keeps all his settings moderate and stays off 'drive' it produces a nice clean for rythym playing. In contrast I struggle to get a bad sound out of mine except with extreme settings.

Side by side his produces lots of fuzzy volume, but it has no cut. The drive when stepped on is like a tube screamer with the tone and drive maxed with level on 3 and usually results in a big volume jump. You can adjust it to a reasonable crunch setting, but then the clean sound loses all it's gonads. He can ultimately bury me with volume, but more is not better in this case. This is my observation of people playing them in live venues: they do a good imitation of a clean Fender, but the moment they start breaking up they lose definition.

Because his has the linear volume pot, it's very hard for him to get the happy medium between 2.5 and 3 where it has enough, but not too much volume for an unmicced drummer.

[Tele-phone man]

I have to agree that the reverb on the HRD amps sucks. Stupid amounts of "BOING" on transients. The Peavey Bandit reverb has less "BOING" than the HRD, for cryin' out loud. For this reason, I would say that the poor sound of the HRD reverb is due more to lousy design than to the fact that it is op-amp driven. All else being equal, just like you I prefer a tube-driven reverb circuit. Reverb send and return circuits need LOTS of headroom, and op-amps just can't keep up with tubes in this respect.
I also agree that the drive circuit in the HRD, while all-tube, is just not very pleasant. It's a really screwy design. I also hated the linear master volume control. This was why I made so many changes to my HRDlx back when I had it.
http://studentweb.eku.edu/justin_holton/
See the VandenBerg mods on this link. That's me.

[Colo Springs E]

......a lot of the "tube purists" who insist a tube amp isn't a tube amp if there's a diode or chip to be found anywhere in the construction on it, step on that Ibanez Tube Screamer when they want that "good, natural overdrive."

LOL, to each his own. I love good tube pre-amp distortion, I make no secret about it. Sounds TEN TIMES better than any pedal out there in my opinion.

As for HRDs, all I know is, you go see 10 bands in your town, good chance you'll see 2 or 3 HRDs up there on the stage somewhere. Can't be that bad. I'm not that crazy about the gain channel on these amps, but on the clean channel, they seem to accept overdrive/distortion pedals pretty good, so not a bad compromise (though I reiterate, I like an amp that has a good gain channel personally).

Your mileage may vary, just my opinion, all that....

-E

[SOUNDMIXER]

Guys,
I wasn't going to add my two cents on this thread because this topic always seems to go round and round and round....

Mr Crash is indeed correct.Do YOU like the sound you get?

I love my HRDX. I have done some tube replacements and changed out the volume pot as well as the input jack sockets. My Tele (An Affinity Butterscotch, so probably not a real Tele in some opinions) sounds absolutely wonderful through the amp. The only pedal I have is a chorus pedal with the drive side of the amp providing the exact sound that I was after. Oh and the reverb sounds fine to me.

The though of it not being a 110% tube amp never even crossed my mind. If the sound I was after required me to buy a Twin or an AC30 then I would have bought one of them.

There are a lot of amps out there that I think suck (Boogies, yuk!) but I don't go on about it. Live and let live comes to mind....

Does the HRDX do what you want? If yes, enjoy. If no, then go out and find one that does make you smile.

Weigh up the opinions by all means, but then let your ears decide which way your wallet goes.