hot rod deluxe/deville'rs

[scoots]

i've been looking across different forums and i'm seeing a pattern forming. these things sound great, but it seems they break up way too early. i have a hr deville 212 and i guess i feel this way too. a whole lot of power, but the sound, well, breaks up too soon. what are people doing to get more out of them, or is it an "it is what it is" kinda thing. is there anyone else on this forum site getting these impressions from these amps? don't get me wrong, i love this thing---jus wanna see what she'll do!

[marshman]

Really? I had the HRDx 1x12 and found it capapble of pretty high headroom. Perhaps your bias is out of whack. I had heard that a lot of people are using it as clean amps for pedalboards.

I assume that you know that max headroom is found by running your master up as high as possible and then bringing up the gain slowly?

[Wally]

Marshman makes good points that the bias can affect breakup and that running the master at max will yield the best headroom. However, these amps have a preamp structure with 2 gain stages (minimum..without using the 'Drive' function) before the tone controls. This yileds higher gain than say a BF preamp where the gain-robbing tone controls are between the first and second stages of gain. Inherently, these are not amps that yield high levels of headroom. Like some of their tweed Fender relatives, they are agressive in the preamp gain stages.

[scoots]

yeah, i don't really think that there's anything wrong with the amp. i run this thing with a boss me-50, but i also like to take this out of the mix and just go straight out of the amp. this is my first tube amp and i'm just in experimental mode. see'in what she'll do! re-bias the amp? iv'e heard that some of these come out of the factory pretty cold. that sounds like a good excuse for new output tubes...so what do you think for power tubes for these things?

[Wally]

Is this a new amp? What tubes are` in it now? Biasing to the cooler side will yield higher headroom in the output section...unless it is bias too cold. Then it starts sounding like a SS amp clipping harshly.

[scoots]

yeah, it's a new amp, bought it in february, floor model. right now it has the groove tubes 6l6b's in it. these are the tubes that come in the amp. cooler biasing will yield more output. cool. i didn't know that.

[Wally]

Cooler bias will yield more headroom...not more output. Those are two different things.

[JohnnyCrash]

Headroom is sort of the point where an amp's output section begins to overdrive/clip/distort. Output is sorta more like actual volume/loudness.

This is much different then the overdrive you get from using the Drive or Gain knob on your amp.

As mentioned this amp has a control that lets you dial in the amount of distortion you want. Learning how to use the controls will help you dial in cleaner sounds.

For instance, make sure you're amp is not in the "Drive" channel. There should be a button or switch to disengage and put you into the normal clean channel.

Another thing is turn the Gain down. Volume or "Master" is what you want to use more than Gain.

Speakers can help with cleaning things up a little bit as well... but I know you're already considering a speaker change too :)

What guitar and pickup are you feeding this amp?

[scoots]

in february i turned 40, so i treated myself to an american deluxe tele with the samaruim cobalt noiseless pickups. i bought this when i bought the amp. when the kids were younger i really didn't have a lot of $ to play with. not saying i do now either, but i've been down to an old ibanez acoustic for......ever! love that old ibanez though. you know, i've been on this website for about a week and all i've talked is amps. i love my tele.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by scoots

in february i turned 40, so i treated myself to an american deluxe tele with the samaruim cobalt noiseless pickups. i bought this when i bought the amp. when the kids were younger i really didn't have a lot of $ to play with. not saying i do now either, but i've been down to an old ibanez acoustic for......ever! love that old ibanez though. you know, i've been on this website for about a week and all i've talked is amps. i love my tele.

HAHAHA

I'm sure you'll get around to talking about your Tele soon enough (perhaps even posting a photo of it for those of us who need their guitar-porn fix? *hint hint* hehehe).

If you need help with the member's photo gallery there's a forum called "Forum Problems & Issues" that may have a thread with some tips... I love TDPRI!

[beep.click]

I have a BLUES DELUXE Reissue (1x12) and a HOT ROD DEVILLE (4x10). They sound totally different.

Each amp has 2 channels. Even on the "dirty" channel, the DELUXE is still pretty clean. It just WON'T do over-the-top distortion sounds (on its own).

The HOT ROD, on the other hand, has lots of distortion on the "dirty" channel. (It's also MUCH, MUCH darker sounding than the Blues Deluxe, overall.) All of the HOT ROD models I've played have that distortion characteristic, regardless of speaker configuration (1x12; 2x12; 4x10).

What I'm getting at here is, you might prefer the sound of the BLUES line over the HOT ROD line.

Something you can try with the HOT ROD is to run an EQ in front, or a Snarling Dogs Very-Tone Dog pedal. I find that by changing the overall tone that way, the same amount of amp distortion doesn't sound as distorted.

[Wally]

The Blues Deluxe/Deville have the same basic preamp gain structure as do the Hot ROd series. They are not clean amps in the vein that say a BF or SF Fender amp is. There is just a fair amount of preamp gain that cannot be avoided. They breakup earlier....even before you punch in the SS overdrive devices.

[scoots]

that seems to be what i hear, they just break up earlier. i really like the way it sounds though. very "glassy" clean. cool. i would just like more use out of my volume knob.(always wanting more). yeah JohnnyCrash, i have to figure out how to put a picture on here. (like a proud father...!) also, what are you guys using for output tubes in these thangs?

[pbenn]

What about changing the first pre-amp tube to something weaker than a 12-Ax7?

[scoots]

i tried a 12at7 here(electro harmonix 12at7eh) and didn't really get to play with it much here. the tube itself produced a "hum" off the low a or e string. ex.-if you hit your low e open by itself, it would make this distorted hum, and would stop "humming" before your signal went away. weird. bad tube? put back in one of the sovtek 12ax7's and it went right back away. i didn't use it here long, but it seemed to take too much of the "punch" away anyway. i still have it sitting in v3 and it seems alright there. it seemed to make the clean a little more "glassy". i think i'm going to try either a 5750 or a better 12ax7 in v1, see what that does. i don't want to give up the punch, i just want to see if i can get a little more headroom...

[televirgo]

The way you set your tone controls on the amp can effect early break up. For instance, too much bass, mids or both. For me , a clean and sparkly setting that permits to go higher in volume is the following for my AV52 Tele:
bright switch: off, Treble:9, Bass:3, Mids:7, Presence:3.

[scoots]

yeah televirgo, normally i run "channel" one, bright off, treb-5, bass-8, mids-8, and the presence about 8, boy does it sound nice like this at mid volumes, clean and real punchy.

[televirgo]

scoots, try lowering the presence to 3 and raising the treble to 9 and lower the bass to 5. I believe this will clean up your sound more: less shrill in the highs and a tighter, less muddy bass. To me , too much Presence is not good for a telecaster .A low Treble setting with a high Presence setting will sound different than a high Treble and low Presence.

[scoots]

that's interesting televirgo, both those sounds are in the same ballpark. i turned the bass back up to 8 and it was close. personally, i like that presence up there, i think it gives it a real glassy sound try it like i'm running it and see what you think. when i get a chance to play with the volume a little more, i'll try turning it up with the treble. appreciate the tip. what's the story on that presence thing anyway, is this an overall sculpt of the treb, bass, and mid controls?

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by scoots

...what's the story on that presence thing anyway, is this an overall sculpt of the treb, bass, and mid controls?

Generally, presence is a function of a negative feedback loop. A NF loop sends some of the output the speaker gets back into the amp signal. It helps balance the frequencies and widen the range of frequencies. The presence knob actually reduces the amount of Treble fed back by this NF loop into the circuit, which is how it sort of "boosts" the Treble response.

Even with the higher gain preamp, you should have plenty of clean at very loud volumes - I still wonder if perhaps there is something wrong with the amp.

[scoots]

i dunno know JohnnyCrash, i brought it in to where i bought it, the guy i'm working with over there run it next to the one on the floor all day and said they performed the same. i haven't experienced and more sound loss since i pushed the output tubes in tighter. it seemed one of these were loose. don't get me wrong, this thing really cranks, i think i'm just on a hunt to see if i can get a little more headroom.(never satisified?)

[scoots]

hey, one more question. i was looking through the kca nos site last night and they have these groove tube 6l6chp's. they recommend these for the deluxe/devilles. does anyone have any experience with these. why would certain tubes be recommend for certain(this) amps. why would these tubes be suggested for this amp. do they offer more headroom? better sound? are they "designed" for these amps? are they a different tube with the groove tube logo stamped over it?aaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!

[sjhusting]

Originally Posted by scoots

hey, one more question. i was looking through the kca nos site last night and they have these groove tube 6l6chp's. they recommend these for the deluxe/devilles. does anyone have any experience with these. why would certain tubes be recommend for certain(this) amps. why would these tubes be suggested for this amp. do they offer more headroom? better sound? are they "designed" for these amps? are they a different tube with the groove tube logo stamped over it?aaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!

Hi Scoots

Give him a call, he has a rep for being very helpful. He'll have his reasons. I see he says they are "high power;" maybe he means they can handle the 485V in the Deville.

Output tubes aren't quite a religious discussion, but you will encounter strong opinions. As far as I know the only tube designed specifically for a particular guitar amplifier (or a guitar amp at all) was the GE6550A for the Fender 400PS. Look at Rich Koerner's site for a very interesting explanation why this was necessary.

Having said that, in the end your ears are what counts. If you don't want to drop a bundle right now on a dozen different matched pairs, then you'll have to rely on other people's opinions and your own experience over the next few years. As a rough guide, look at this document -> http://www.tube-town.net/info/doc/tt-tubemap.pdf

but don't take it as holy writ; at most it can give you a general idea what different tubes will sound like, and it isn't complete, since it only includes the brands in his shop.

Another resource is Watford Valves in the UK; they have done some interesting testing and put the results on their web page. Go here and read:http://www.watfordvalves.com/reports.asp

Reading is cheaper than buying, and will give you an idea where to start.

I use, depending on my mood when I buy the tubes, either TAD (Shugang) 6L6WGC (in there now, but soon to be replaced), SED, or JJs. Others like Sovtek, EH, TungSol (all from the Reflektor factory), or GTs (manufactured by whoever). Some put KT66s in there. It's hard to say.

I guess this isn't much help. One thing to keep in mind is that you may be after maximum clean headroom, but a lot of people want early power tube saturation (distortion) and these are obviously two things which are not like each other. The market for distortion may be bigger than the market for clean, so if you contact Mike at KCA make sure you tell him you are looking for maximum clean.

steven

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by scoots

hey, one more question. i was looking through the kca nos site last night and they have these groove tube 6l6chp's. they recommend these for the deluxe/devilles. does anyone have any experience with these. why would certain tubes be recommend for certain(this) amps. why would these tubes be suggested for this amp. do they offer more headroom? better sound? are they "designed" for these amps? are they a different tube with the groove tube logo stamped over it?aaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!

When purchasing any new gear there's always that "Honeymoon period" - give things a few weeks time to settle in with your ears... in this case I'd really try to narrow down what your exact distastes are with this amp before going on modding sprees - especially since NOS tubes can get pricey fast.

Give it time, really try to figure out whats getting under your skin... with tube amps it may be like fine wine tasting... it certainly doesn't taste like cherries, but there is a "nose" or "aftertaste"... same thing here - it may be hard to peg down, but the first step at getting that exact sound you want, is figuring out the exact whats and whys to your setup - then addressing the minutely specific details involved in the issue.

[sjhusting]

Yeah, he's right, just use what is in there for now. Maybe have your shop check the bias. Play the amp until you discover what you do and do not like. You need a baseline.

Don't try to set the bias yourself if you don't feel comfortable with it. The first time I did it (in the Deville, with 485-real-live-life threatening-volts), I followed all the safety precautions and was also usin a 1000-V insulated screwdriver, but my hand was shaking so badly it's a wonder I didn't die.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by sjhusting

Yeah, he's right, just use what is in there for now. Maybe have your shop check the bias. Play the amp until you discover what you do and do not like. You need a baseline.

Don't try to set the bias yourself if you don't feel comfortable with it. The first time I did it (in the Deville, with 485-real-live-life threatening-volts), I followed all the safety precautions and was also usin a 1000-V insulated screwdriver, but my hand was shaking so badly it's a wonder I didn't die.

I figured it'd take me only one shock to remember to not touch the chassis when servicing an amp.

Two shocks later and all of my screwdrivers are wrapped in insulating tape!! HAHAHA

The third shock I don't count because that was before my amp building days - that one picked me up and literally threw my entire body across the room. Left a burn on my fingertip as well...

Man, I am really a dumbass... I'm surprised I'm still kicking. I'm glad my "big brothers" here on TDPRI have helped me learn over the years - I am truly the king of dumbasses.