When did it all change?

[teledude66]

Originally Posted by ibobunot

If it wasn't for the gearheads and tweekers we wouldn't have all these cool toys to play with...

So ya'll keep rocking the boat, pushing the envelope and fixing what's not broken.

Yeah I agree, I think in large part it's a guy thing. I was always seeing what was inside my toys even if it meant tearing them up, same thing with my trucks and my Harley. Some of us are hard wired to tinker and change things. I dare say the untouched Teles on this board are far outnumbered by the modded ones, same with amps. I haven't modded any amps mainly because I'm feared of dying...lol, but I'm already listening to people talk about speaker changes in my C30...

[appar111]

Originally Posted by Wayne Alexander

I've built and modified a lot of amps, and I've paid pros (mostly Don Butler) to modify amps that I don't want to or can't. Let's say you buy a new Vox AC30CC series amp. It sounds really good stock, there's no question about that. However, if you listen to it after the mods that Don does to these reissue amps (swapping the small, generic tone caps in the signal path for Sozos, swapping the small 1/4 watt resistors in the signal path with carbon comps, swapping the choke and OT for much higher quality Mercury Magnetics units, the amp sounds way more complex and toneful, much more like the best of the 1960's ones. The difference isn't subtle. By comparison, the new unmodified amp sounds a little "simpler" and doesn't have as much swirl and chime and bloom. That may not matter to you, but it does matter to me. If you want a new amp, especially a factory-built amp with small generic caps and resistors and a cheap OT, to sound like a great old amp you have to swap some parts and tweak some component values. If you don't value the change, then fine. I do.

I agree with this. Some people go overboard tweaking the heck out of an amp, guitar, etc. Lord knows I'm guilty of that too. But the way I see it, 1) I notice the difference in the changes/mods I make, 2) I'm not knocking those who like their stuff stock (some of the best gear don't need nothin and sound great as-is), and 3) it's a hobby, and as such, the tweaking is as much a part of the hobby as playing is.

I don't think that modding an amp is going to make me a better player, I just think the improvement in sound is noticeable and (most of the time) worth the effort.

[2nd_degree]

I say don't fight it either way. If something stock is working for you; that's the best thing. You don't have to screw with anything spending time and money. If you believe a mod will help your rig work better for you than try it, but don't jump at it. I've learned things every time I have tried making changes. I've learned what part is doing what sound and feel-wise. Better "quality" doesn't always mean better sonics. One of my amps has Mallory 150's in it instead of Orange Drops, because they sound better with this design. The builder worked that out. I will say that with the good amps and pedals I go back to the way they were before I changed them. It's not a suprise that the builder already worked-through sound & behavior issues until he got them right. Now that I've learned this fact I am not as quick to screw with things, because most of the they are about as good as they are going to get with that particular design. Stop obsessing over things and play your instrument more. Life is short.

[Larry F]

I think we should be more tolerant of how others use their time. I wouldn't presume to tell someone to stop tweaking and play their guitar more. Maybe tweaking is rewarding in its own right, Maybe someone is already playing guitar 4 hours a day and can still find time to tweak. I don't see why we need to criticize others for their use of their own time.

[Larry F]

Sorry for the double post. Accidentally hit the space bar.

[Steve McGinnis]

Originally Posted by fierce_carrot

I can remember when buying a new amp was about actually playing it. I am NOT KNOCKING those who build their own amps, been there done that and I know what it's all about, but after I built my amp I played the damn thing and have for the almost 5 years since. Since getting my trainwreck I have left it alone and played the daylights outta it and loved every minute of it.

It seems now that there is a new breed of people on some forums (haven't seen them here thank GOD) that seem to think that if I just change this part or tweak that one the tone will get better.

WTF?

You post on "Amp Central" forum and complain that people are talking too much about amps, and not enough about playing? ...WTF indeed.

[Flashback]

So what caps did you put in your amps?

Sozo's in the 45 and good ole Spragues in the 5E3.

[tiktok]

I think the assumption that "inexpensive" means "sounds bad" and vice versa bears careful examination.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Wally

'Tonal memory'....this is what I call the ability to recall and compare tonal qualities. IME, the people with good ears and attention to detail can definitely tell the difference in modifications and/or the differences between different amps. Experience can be a big factor, but the ear and the attention has to be there.

Great post. Thanks, Wally.

[blues]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Here's a relevant quote. I've heard many versions of this. Something like 90 percent of resources go to addressing 10 percent of the problems. In our terms, it's not hard to make an amp that amplifies sound. The difficulties arise when you're trying to zero in on the sound you're after. That's where our resources go. I guess some people can't hear these nuances, but, as this thread indicates, other people can. It is highly presumptuous for people who can't hear the difference to tell people who can that they are wasting their time. It is even more presumptuous for people who can't hear or appreciate the difference, to tell those who can how to manage their time, such as practicing the guitar or whatever.

Those nuances sure cost me alot of money over the last 30 years.I think it was all worth it. When I started playing there were magazines and word of mouth,and going to the music store to try different gear.In the mid 70s there was no internet.Another thing we used to do back then was get with other players,and trying to learn from each other.I would seek out players that were better than me and try and learn all I could from them.There are many pros and cons about the internet.
Pros are the many musics stores or dealers online,You could find just about anything your looking for.Gear info can be shared.The ironic part is all the gear I have now came from online.There is not many music stores in my neck of the woods.
I have a few observations I noted over the years.There are those who think there gear is the best,and everything else sucks,inclued those who dont agree.Another thing ive noted is displaying ones gear as if were some kind of status symbol.Ive also noted and seen first hand,that those who have not been playing for long,and may not aware of the nuances are being mislead.They are being told this(popular boutique gear)is the best.It may or may not be for them.Thats enough hot air from me for now

[11 Gauge]

Here's a great discussion about not over-tweaking:

http://tone-lizard.com/Ultimate_JCM800.htm

It also dispels a lot of myths circulating about certain mods from gurus who should know better.

Basically, if you follow the above mentioned tweaks (just a handful), you will get much improved tone. It only involves a handful of resistors, and actually some caps are eliminated.

Also discussed are mods that should be avoided - great to have a pro divulge such info on the internet, while others are charging for it (and the average guitarist doesn't even know what is being done).

[woodman]

nothing can make you sound like what you ain't.

[Larry F]

Respectfully, Woodman, this doesn't seem to apply to the people here who dink around with amps. Reading the posts in this thread, it appears that modding is being done by people who hear want they want and go about achieving it. The posters here don't seem to be looking for an amp or mods that will make them sound like something that they are not. This is a delicate topic right now and the slogan you put forward doesn't sound like its goal is increased understanding. Did you mean it as a slam to the people who tweak with specific goals in mind? Or to the mythical guitarist who uses equipment to compensate for a lack of musicality? If the former, then the slogan is misdirected. If the latter, where is the target to whom the barb is directed? Why pick on them? Will they read your slogan? Will they act on it? I don't see anyone benefiting from this barb. What's the positive side of this slogan? What are you trying to remedy? Or is it just criticism for its own sake?

[getbent]

I don't think anything changed. If anything is different it is that all the freaks (in a good way) can communicate and share because of the internet.

as long as I've been around music even in little dinky towns there is always the "red rhodes" of that town who is tweaking things, hunting the tonal grail, dinking with stuff.....

for all the time I've spent on this board, I have played my guitar 3 times more because of stuff I've read... I've learned more in the past year than in the previous 10....

I say live and let live.

[crawdad]

Heres my take, one piece at a time.

I think it all began with Mesa Boogie. They took a stock Fender amp and tricked it out. A new style of cascaded gain stage amps was introduced. I don't know if they were the first to do this, but the design caught on and was high profile. Dumble followed a somewhat similar path too.

Amp techs noticed and began to offer these mods to customers.

Then, Kendrick amps came out--which kicked off the whole boutique amp trend. Gerald Weber began writing books and articles about amp repair and modification--stuff like how to convert Silverface Fenders to Blackface specs. Certain companies, who shall remain nameless, began selling amp mods. More books came out and the internet was hosting more and more information about tube circuits, building, mods, etc.

Companies sprouted up that began selling chassis and components to build complete amps, as well as complete kits.

In the end, we had many choices. Some might say too many choices--while others may welcome them. Fierce Carrot ended up with a Trainwreck clone, which he doesn't want to mod, yet he DID mod it at build by adding PPIMV and a power reduction switch (cool to me!). Such things were non-existent in the Blackface era. Not to mention that Ken Fischer was on the cutting edge of amp building--the total other end of Fender's philosophy of build them simple and sturdy (well, the old days anyway...)

I guess I'd say that once the genie is out of the bottle, its out for good. Whether a particular mod to an amp makes it better is an interesting but different discussion.

[getbent]

Crawdad,

I agree. The genie is out of the bottle.

[Gee]

Originally Posted by crawdad

I guess I'd say that once the genie is out of the bottle, its out for good.

That's exactly what has changed. Well said.

[Paul G.]

Um, maybe it's a hobby???


P. (owner of 6 amps--3 dead stock, 2 tweaked, 1 home-built).

And may I say...I sound great through all of them!!!!

[fierce_carrot]

Originally Posted by Steve McGinnis

You post on "Amp Central" forum and complain that people are talking too much about amps, and not enough about playing? ...WTF indeed.

pay attention to what I said...maybe you should take some time to carefully read my initial post...

this instance was about a person who had never played thru a real wreck, or a clone, who hadn't even taken possession of their clone so they had NO IDEA what it would really sound like and yet was talking about"improving the tone" of an amp he had never even played thru.

thats the jist of the thread..how idiotic some of this has gotten...it's got nothing to do with those tweaking an amp internally to get a specific tone, but at least these people have played the amps and have a basis from which to begin modifications.

like I said..internet bench racers....

[teledude66]

Originally Posted by fierce_carrot

pay attention to what I said...maybe you should take some time to carefully read my initial post...

this instance was about a person who had never played thru a real wreck, or a clone, who hadn't even taken possession of their clone so they had NO IDEA what it would really sound like and yet was talking about"improving the tone" of an amp he had never even played thru.

thats the jist of the thread..how idiotic some of this has gotten...it's got nothing to do with those tweaking an amp internally to get a specific tone, but at least these people have played the amps and have a basis from which to begin modifications.

like I said..internet bench racers....

I'll admit I glossed over that part, I'll never buy anything I haven't played through at least once. So yeah it is a little boneheaded to plan to modify unheard equipment.

[chet]

Originally Posted by fierce_carrot

pay attention to what I said...maybe you should take some time to carefully read my initial post...

this instance was about a person who had never played thru a real wreck, or a clone, who hadn't even taken possession of their clone so they had NO IDEA what it would really sound like and yet was talking about"improving the tone" of an amp he had never even played thru.

thats the jist of the thread..how idiotic some of this has gotten...it's got nothing to do with those tweaking an amp internally to get a specific tone, but at least these people have played the amps and have a basis from which to begin modifications.

like I said..internet bench racers....

If that was the intent of your thread then everybody took it in a different way. You need to make things clear in your writing.

[chet]

Originally Posted by Larry F

Respectfully, Woodman, this doesn't seem to apply to the people here who dink around with amps. Reading the posts in this thread, it appears that modding is being done by people who hear want they want and go about achieving it. The posters here don't seem to be looking for an amp or mods that will make them sound like something that they are not. This is a delicate topic right now and the slogan you put forward doesn't sound like its goal is increased understanding. Did you mean it as a slam to the people who tweak with specific goals in mind? Or to the mythical guitarist who uses equipment to compensate for a lack of musicality? If the former, then the slogan is misdirected. If the latter, where is the target to whom the barb is directed? Why pick on them? Will they read your slogan? Will they act on it? I don't see anyone benefiting from this barb. What's the positive side of this slogan? What are you trying to remedy? Or is it just criticism for its own sake?

He's talking about the guys who want to sound just like SRV, Hendrix or nowadays it's Brad Paisley. That's a different subject.

[Tele The Truth]