Gibson vs. Fender (vintage) amp advice

[Ledbetter237]

Hi, folks. I'm pretty new to this forum, but I've got a friend that floats around here sometimes whom I usually rely heavily on for gear advice, so I thought I'd take this opportunity to meet some new folks, and get some second opinions...

I'm a Tele player through and through, and the guitar I've always come back to is, oddly enough, a cheaply priced 1983 SQ-serial numbered yellow blonde Japanese Squier, with a Duncan Broadcaster pup in the bridge, and an endless series of other pups in the neck. Right now I'm actually playing what Duncan recommends to match the Broadcaster, and having decent results...

Anyway, I've been suffering the amp miseries for years, having gone through a number of different vintage and reissue-type amps, and really would like to find one good medium/large amp for band practice and gigging, and be done with the Quest!

I love old warm, clean-to-slightly overdriven, vintage sounds. Think 50's blues and rockabilly recordings, and Billy Gibbons on ZZ Top's First Album (why did he ever change that original tone?!? I guess even the best is never good enough for us gassers...). Also some classic Tele recordings, Don Rich & Buck Owens, etc., and absolutely love Ron Wood's tone with the Faces, though that grainy kind of dirt may be off the mark for a Tele player?

I use the volume knob a lot at home, where I'm working lately with a practice amp I'm really liking, a Gibson Maestro GA-1, which I originally bought for its ability to act as an extension echo cabinet! I can dial the volume up to about 8 out of 10, then back off the volume knob on my guitar for a huge range of sounds, with all except full-on being around the same sound level! Why some amps respond so well to this while others don't is beyond me, but I get a great twangy, WOODY, clean, warm-rounded glassy tone with the guitar about 2/3 turned down, then wonderfully crisp dirt (think tubescreamer with decent bass response, and without the excessively middy & nasal half-cocked wah quality) with the guitar turned down 1/4-1/3rd. Dark, but with just the right amount of trebly bite. Great touch responsiveness and sensitivity to pick attack, etc. When the amp first arrived I turned everything to 10 and dug in, which sounded terrible! Guess all those knobs are there for a reason...

I mention all this to give an idea of the tone I hear in my head now that I'm asking for advice on a gigging-volume amp (rehearsal, small venues, mic-ed for medium venues...don't think I'll be playing anywhere large anytime soon, but one can still dream!).

I've been trying to get happy for cheap, but at this point I'm willing to drop around $1500 for the right amp, if it will get me to stop this crazy miserable search for a good tone palette, and allow me to start spending my free time actually playing! (and let me say in advance, thanks, but no thanks to any "Tone is in the hands, Clapton would still sound like Clapton on a B.C. Rich through a Crate" lectures)...

So, what I'm looking at right now is either an old TV-front Fender Pro, or something like a Gibson GA-77, which will sell for about half the cost, but I have no clue as to what to expect from its sound (my experience with Gibson amps is that they're unpredictable). Mind you, I haven't had a chance to play either of these amps! Boston is the pits as far as vintage gear searching goes, so I'm stuck doing the eBay shuffle of buying an amp to hear it.

Anybody got experience with either of these amps? Experience with Gibson amps in general? Any other options I may be missing? I'm not opposed to newer amps on principle, I just haven't heard any to my liking. All the boutique repros I've heard were plasticy sounding, and had no VIBE!

I'm wary of trying another Gibson amp, mostly due to an experience buying TWO late 50's GA-5s for practice (based on all the rave reviews), and HATING both of them! I've heard a lot of 5 watt Champ-style amps, and these are one of the lamest in my opinion. I've also tried a lot of same era but cheaper old tube stuff, and have come to believe they're second-rated for a reason (e.g. Premier, Vega, Silvertone, etc.). Some of these have a fun trashy overdriven sound, but are cardboard and weak for anything else. Also, I've heard a lot of Valco amps, but they're not to my taste, having what I hear as a more metallic, 60's style overdrive, as opposed to the warm, woody 50's sound...

If any of you out there are still reading by this point, thanks! Any and all advice will be much appreciated. Hope your holidays are good, and Santa puts lots of oblong boxes under the tree for you!

[jh45gun]

I have a Silvertone 1472 and I like it but you have to do some work to them. Get them running right first of all wether it needs tubes or a cap job ect, then throw away the cardboard case and make a good wood one. Then take out the speaker in them that are pretty lame and put a good speaker in them I have heard clips of them fixed like this and they sound very good. I still got to put a speaker in mine but the wood case is done and it sounds very good until I push it that is why I need the better speaker. For those who like the over driven sound they would leave it as is but I am going to put a speaker in mine that does not break up so fast. The Silvertones were not that bad no they were not a Fender by no means but they were called the poor mans Fender because they still did the job and had a decent sound. When you fix them up with decent electronics and a good case they are not bad as most of them are loosely based on Fender Circuits. More so than the Gibsons were as they used different tubes ect. One thing to consider Fender over Gibson, Gibson used some ODD tubes in their amps which may be harder to find then the Common tubes Fender and others like Silvertone used. In fact tha Tube layout in my Silvertone is pretty much the same as a Fender Deluxe. You have to figure with amps this old you may need to do work to them to get them playable no matter what the brand unless some one did it before you get the amp.

[Tim Swartz]

Before I got to the end of the OP's post it was sounding like tweed to me... The GA77 of course would be at least as good (circa late '50s)... and as you cited, a lot less dough than the Pro, but all of the quality. Other considerations would be for something like the Victoria (or similar quality clone) version of a Pro/Super/Bandmaster... or maybe the Fender reissue low power Twin. The Marshall reissue JTM45 would also get you there, but it might be too much amp.

[mad dog]

Led: As I'm reading your post, I'm thinking "15 inch speaker" and "GA77". You're definitely looking in the right place. To Gibson tweed for responsive and tele-friendly, to 15s for fat. I have heard the GA77, but haven't played it. A worthy contender in the tweed pro zone, probably more akin to the earlier, more compression rich variants of the fender pro.

Pros have gotten stupid pricey. Gibsons are headed that way. I can think of some fine alternatives:

Silvertone 1335, 1394 (I think) or 1433. Another take on the tweed pro, this one with it's own unique sound, anywhere from funky to outright strange cosmetics, including flimsy baffles that can be improved upon. Depending on the model, you may have problems upgrading the stock Utah alnico, should you choose to. Have wanted one of these for years, especially the earliest model (1335), with it's roomy cab in faux alligator.

And my favorite, the Sewell Wampus Cat. Once in a while, used example come along, usually under a grand. It's a blend of two tweed pro variants (5E5 and 5E5A), 2 6L6, cathode bias, bassman size OT, most came stock with Weber Cali 15s. No reverb. It's a seriously toneful and responsive amp. With my G&L ASAT Classic, roll off treble, up the volume for one of the juciest west coast jump sounds I've ever heard.

Another good one, pricier, is the Victoria Victorilux 1x15. I play one often at a rehearsal studio, much appreciate the built in reverb and trem. And their tweed pro, the 35115. Great amps, but I would not trade the Sewell for either. YMMV.

[Ledbetter237]

Thanks for the replies so far, folks. A big part of what I'm wondering is whether, all price considerations aside, an TV-front era Pro would still be the best choice for an amplifier for my described tastes. I should have also stated that I'm not interested at this point in committing to any big projects, trying to find the best cabinet, best speaker, etc. to try to turn a cheaper amp into something I can live with. Don't know if any of you have had this experience, but the more I have to listen and make choices about best speaker, best tubes, best pickups, etc., the more I start to get dissatisfied with EVERYTHING. Maybe it's shameful to admit, but a big part of me feels like if I was looking at an amp that I knew was a tried and tested gem throughout the history of rock and roll, then I'd think if it was good enough for Chuck Berry, Scotty Moore, Buddy Holly, etc., then it must be good enough for me! I really want to stop fiddling/tweaking, and get back to playing!

[mad dog]

Each to his own. Price consideration aside, I'm just as happy to have a modern builder's version. Good tone is where you find it. With due diligence, maybe a fair amount of seaching and negotiation, I'm sure I'd find it in wide or narrow panel tweeds. Just as sure I'd be swapping speakers, maybe swapping tubes no matter what I got. I own and play more old amps than new, appreciate the virtues of both.

[Wally]

I went to gbase.com to look at some of those stupid high prices on Pros that Maddog mentioned. They seemed market-correct to me, but I ran across this amp....http://www.gbase.com/Stores/Gear/Gea...x?Item=1587675
Maybe Tim Swartz or someone else knows something about this Electrolab amp. It coudl be a sleeper. There is also a retweed TV front there for reasonable dollars...$1150 or so. I have one of those going together, but it is spoken for...and I might want more than that anyway.
FWIW, I have a transition Pro...Wide panel with the 5Bcircuit, I think. It is one of the finest sounding amps that I have heard.It is all-original with cover to boot, so I don't mind those 'stupid' prices. I actually have bought it 3 times...hahahaha..what's wrong with me? It was dead silent with a blown..exploded...filter cap when I first got it. A pro friend/customer bought it, thought it was/is the best guitar amp he ever played through, but traded it in on a more powerful amp that he could take to the clubs instead of just the recording studio. Another friend bought it and resold it to me..at a small loss to him... a few weeks later when he needed the money. His offer, not mine. I would have given him what he paid for it. It is a major amp, imo.

[Tremo]

You sure you want a TV front? You know it will require extensive servicing if it hasn't already had it. I've worked on a few of those real old tweeds and they basically need to be totally rebuilt.

[Ledbetter237]

Anybody here able to tell which model this one is?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

I've heard bad things about the wide panel pro 5D5 models, but this MAY be a transitional 5C5, or even 5B5? Anybody know the details about all this stuff?

Thanks to the fellow who posted the gbase.com suggestions...I'd never even heard of that site!

[Tim Swartz]

I can tell you the Lectrolab amps are the same as Harmony amps, but with a different color cover... I've owned a couple, and while being nice sounding, I would not consider them a profesional grade instrument (nor would I Silvertone, Danelectros, Supros, etc...).

I'm with Tremo 100% on the early tweed amps (I have a TV front Deluxe). As cool as they sound, if you ever want to rely on it for a gig it should be completely rebuilt...every cap, resistor, tube socket, etc... And even then, the 6SC7 tubes are going to want to squeal... I even found some glass ones and they are still microphonic... But that Deluxe delivers incredible honkin' tone with a tele, it is just thick and meaty! The ultimate little tele amp in my book!

[Ledbetter237]

Thanks for the feedback on the TV era feedback, it's very reassuring! Here's another question/thought, though: how much different will a "rebuilt" amp sound than an original? After all that work and the new components, what's the difference between playing the old amp, and just building a new one, and using an old Jensen?

[Mr. Sparkle]

What about that Lindy Fralin amp that VVT is making? 50's design, 6L6 or 6V6, and a Weber 15. I think it comes in at around $1500 as well. Plus it only weighs 30 lbs. They get great reviews.

[Big Mike Simpson]

I have a 49 Pro, a 49 Deluxe and a 52 Pro. While the Pro is a beautiful sounding amp there is a limited amount of clean headroom. I assume you know that since you are looking at tweed amps. The 49 TV front has earlier breakup and is a little "creamier" that the 52 Pro for whatever reason... they are both running vintage Jensen 15" speakers. I know someone will want to beat me up for this but with a band the Pro is sometimes barely loud enough. You might also want to consider a Tweed Super or Bandmaster.

[Ledbetter237]

Along the lines of the last member who wrote about volume issues, here's another question which may get ME beat up:

If even a Pro, at 25 watts, may be just barely loud enough to hang with a band, WHAT do people use a Deluxe for? I'd love to own one based on the miles of famous reviews I've read, and my love I guess for Tweed tone, but if it's too loud for practice at home, but not loud enough to play with a band...???

Beautiful room you've got there by the way, Big Mike. I could sit and look at pictures like that all day, drooling over my keyboard! By the way, with all those great Fenders hanging around, I'd be especially interested to know your experience with and/or take on their Gibson counterparts...

[Big Mike Simpson]

If the band keeps it down... A Pro will do... You can get more clean volume with a different speaker but that alters or loses some of the tone.

I do not own any Gibson amps but I have been tempted by a couple. I own 7 Gibson guitars tho...

The Tweed Deluxe is a way cool amp and I use it for lower powered semi acoustic gigs... often without bass and drums, you can always mic either the Pro or Deluxe and get all you need. I also use the Tweed deluxe sometimes when I use 2 amps (Tweed Deluxe + Princeton Reverb or Deluxe Reverb)

On the songs on our band website and myspace the harp player is playing through the 52 PRO.

[Tremo]

Originally Posted by Ledbetter237

Anybody here able to tell which model this one is?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

I've heard bad things about the wide panel pro 5D5 models, but this MAY be a transitional 5C5, or even 5B5? Anybody know the details about all this stuff?

Thanks to the fellow who posted the gbase.com suggestions...I'd never even heard of that site!

Led, that looks like a 52 or 53. Look at the original resistors in the preamp circuit, look how big they are compared to more modern 1/2 Watters. Those are OLD style parts, and I suspect if you actually measure their values, you'll find they have drifted WAY off from where they're "supposed" to be, perhaps as much as 100%. That's why I say such old ones will need a complete rebuild.

A friend had a transitional wide panel Pro. It was transitional between using octal preamps and 9-pin. The PI was still an octal, the rest of the preamps were 9-pin. It was cathode biased, 25 Watts, and he had a P15N in the thing. It was loud enough for the gigs. Of course the band didn't play at earbleed levels, they were old school blues. It sounded great. Lots of compression, smooth distortion.

I went to elementary shcool with a guy named Kevin Ledbetter.

[Ledbetter237]

I'm hearing some conflicting thoughts regarding what to replace, and what to leave, in these old amps. I've been hearing it's best to leave old "tone" caps in the amp, but then also some responses as above, that everythingshould be replaced/rebuilt.

Anybody have more thoughts?

[jh45gun]

(nor would I Silvertone, Danelectros, Supros, etc...).


Nothing wrong with them if you go through the electronics and replace the speaker for a better one and make a better case with the Silvertone/Danelectro's No they are no Fender but they can be made into a decent amp with a few mods and a better case and speaker. Not every one's Cup of Tea, but they can be made to sound very good.

[Tremo]

Originally Posted by Ledbetter237

I'm hearing some conflicting thoughts regarding what to replace, and what to leave, in these old amps. I've been hearing it's best to leave old "tone" caps in the amp, but then also some responses as above, that everythingshould be replaced/rebuilt.

Anybody have more thoughts?

Led, if you are going to PLAY the amp, you must replace any caps that are failing, period. Goes without saying that all the power filter electrolytics need to be changed. Ditto for the cathode bypass cap on the output stage (if it's cathode biased). On that output stage bypass cap, the stock caps had (as I recall) a 25 volt rating, which is NOT high enough, and will cause a modern replacement of that rating to short. Replace that cap with one rated at 50 volts. Safety!!!

Regarding the tone caps, if they are ceramic or mica, they still are likely to be OK, but chould be checked regardless. The larger tubular tone caps will likely need to be replaced IF they are exposed to high voltage, as they will probably be leaking by now. Leaky caps throw the whole circuit off-kilter.

The signal coupling caps will likely need replacement for the above reasons, and should definitely be checked for leakage.

If it ain't broke, don't fixit, but if it's leaking, it's broke.

[Tremo]

Oh yeah, if you want that old 6L6 cathode bias tone, but don't have the scratch for a wp tweed, check out the Sewell Wampus Cat. Modern take on a tweed Pro.

[telel6s]

Originally Posted by Ledbetter237

Along the lines of the last member who wrote about volume issues, here's another question which may get ME beat up:

If even a Pro, at 25 watts, may be just barely loud enough to hang with a band, WHAT do people use a Deluxe for? I'd love to own one based on the miles of famous reviews I've read, and my love I guess for Tweed tone, but if it's too loud for practice at home, but not loud enough to play with a band...???

As with many things, there are several "it depends" to go along with this. I've got a Mission 5E3 clone. When I first got it, it had a Weber 12A125 speaker. I was playing with a "typical bar band". PA was for vocals only. That amp/speaker only worked for sound check and then got drowned out most of the rest of the night....not even sure why I bothered to play the third set!

However, I put the chassis in a new cabinet with a 15" Weber Ceramic Chicago. That gave me more volume and headroom, but it still depended on the room. One place we played was small and the whole band was stuck into this alcove area at the front of the bar....the amp was still tough to hear (from what friends in the bar told me). But another place was more open with higher ceilings and the 5E3/15" combo worked great in there. I also used it an outdoor gig - still no micing the amps - and had no problems keeping up with the drummer.

So if you are not micing an amp, a 5E3 is not going to be able to cover every situation. If you are limited to one amp and need to be playing gigs, look to something with more power. But if you have the luxury for multiple amps, a Deluxe is treat.

Which brings me to a thought: a Vicky Double Deluxe or Weber 5E3x2 kit. These are a 5E3 circuit but with 4 6v6 power tubes to give more volume. I've never heard one in person but I love the idea.

[dean]

Hey, Led -

Looks like you have a dandy little tonequest going on - you can't have much more fun than that! Maybe this suggestion is off track a bit, but my little quest turned up some surprises. I was pretty much set on a particular amp (Princeton Reverb) since I had owned a couple in the past. I ended up at the local vintage shop and started noodling around with some PRs as well as some others. In the end, the amps that seemed to produce the sounds I wanted were somewhat different from what I thought I wanted. I ended up with two amps - a '67 Gretsch 6152 and a White Knob '64 Princeton (6G2). I also will own another Savage Macht 6 some day (that may be the best amp I've ever owned).

I'm not suggesting these amps to you - you have your own sound in your head and your own needs in terms of output. But I would suggest that you blank out the biases or preconceptions and head to a vintage shop (Boston Guitarworks?) and try a bunch of different amps. Take your own guitar and see what the vintage amps, the clones, and the boutique amps have to offer - you might be surprised (as I was). I never would have tried the little Gretsch if someone else hadn't been trying the PR. It was a cool little stroke of fortune that led me to the amp. Plus, it's fun trying out a bunch of different amps.

Good luck and have fun with your search!

Dean