EL84's vs. 6L6's

holgaguy · September 1st, 2003, 07:27 AM

I'm sure there's been a lot of discussion about this but I'm wondering what the differences are between the two.

I have Peavey Classic 30 (two 84's) and have been thinking about a more powerful amp like the Hot Rod Deluxe or DeVille - both of which use 6L6's I think.

http://homepage.mac.com/davidniles/guitars/

MJ Harnish · September 1st, 2003, 08:09 AM

Sonically and technically they're different but describing those differences are difficult since they are often used in very different circuits. Most EL84 amps are cathode-biased while most 6L6 amps are not; that alone has a major difference on the sound. EL84's also can't handle nearly as high a voltage as 6L6's which also has a very large effect on the resulting tone of the circuit. The same goes for preamp structures: It's much more common to find a multi-stage preamp (i.e., generating distortion) driving 6L6's than it is to find one pushing EL84's (a few Mesa amps use them though). So most people who describe the difference are liable to be describing the differences in the circuits rather than the tubes.

What I can say is that 6L6s give you more headroom, less break-up, and an overall cleaner tone. They also give you a lot more output power for a given # of tubes. Probably the best A/B comparison is to find one of the Mesa Nomad series; the lower power ones use EL84's while the higher wattage ones use 6L6's I think. Of course, the circuits are not identical but at least they're sort of in the same ballpark.

Mr. Droopy-Drawers · September 1st, 2003, 08:17 AM

The 6L6 DeVille amplifiers will have only a few more watts, which you may not even hear. Try the pair in a side-by-side 'shoot-out'. Most music stores should let you do it, especially if you are a regular customer. Then, decide for yourself if the extra 'bulk' is worth it.

Standard Rant Alert! Opinions are like _________ (fill in the blank with any body part); everybody has at least one.

For me, those Fender DeVille amplifiers seem to have trouble. I've seen many with 'bad' jacks, cold soldering, and the like. I've never owned one, but that's what I see. I have owned a Classic 50 since they first came out; and with no trouble other than tubes. The downside is this sucker is heavy (second only to my JCM800 combo). I'm sure the Classic 30 is also a great amplifier. I would keep it, and think about a more efficient speaker. It may be the ticket. It's tough to have a Cadillac that gets 100 miles-to-the-gallon. Getting a small amplifier that has some power (and tone) to it, without breaking your back and wallet, is everyone's quest.

holgaguy · September 1st, 2003, 08:24 AM

I almost bought a 50. It was a choice between a used Classic 50 or new 30. The 50 was a heavy sucker and portability won out.

telemann51 · September 1st, 2003, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Droopy-Drawers

I'm sure the Classic 30 is also a great amplifier. I would keep it, and think about a more efficient speaker. It may be the ticket.

I thought my C30 was a little underpowered, a tad bit shrill and somewhat thin-sounding in the bass. I replaced the stock speaker with a Weber California ceramic/paper and it's a different amp. I played it in for about 8 hours and noticed that the tone was thicker, the shrill sound was gone and there was a fuller bass sound. On the gig it sounded really good - it's a regular gig so I know the sound I usually get. I feel like it goes a bit louder now without distorting but I might be full of it on this issue. What I perceived as a lack of usable volume might have been a result of the thinner sound. I play mostly country and rockabilly so I want clean tones but I don't want the "icepick in the ear" tones. The new speaker is a really good match for the amp.

Mr. Droopy-Drawers · September 1st, 2003, 09:04 AM

Well, I knew I was on the right track. I like Peavey, but like any other company, they think of their bottom line. Scrimping on the speaker can hurt your 'reputation', and now you know what I mean. It does depend on the music you play, too.
Blue Guitar has the schematic and layout; you may want to look at 'beefing' up the circuit, if you think there's room for improvement there. I did a few of the Classic 50 mods, and they work. If they are 'better' is a matter of taste and opinion, but it's great the information is out there. Look up the schematic and layout at http://www.blueguitar.org.

holgaguy · September 1st, 2003, 09:10 AM

For the most part I play Chicago blues and some Jump blues so it looks like the Weber California might be a little too clean. Of course I'm also learning a lot more country licks with my Tele and a good clean sound is paramount for that style. Then of course there's the R&R I play .... so many things for one amp!

telemann51 · September 1st, 2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holgaguy

...it looks like the Weber California might be a little too clean.

The fact that the speaker stays "clean" longer doesn't affect the distortion from the amp stages. However, the California will stay clean as long as the amp does. Also, external FX pedals work well with this amp.

Anonymous · September 1st, 2003, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holgaguy

I have Peavey Classic 30 (two 84's)

Just FYI: your C30 has four EL84s. I don't think you could coax 30 watts out of two of them -- not for long, anyway. ;-)

Quote:

have been thinking about a more powerful amp like the Hot Rod Deluxe or DeVille - both of which use 6L6's I think.

The HR's are a little more powerful, but 30 watts is actually a pretty healthy amount of power for most applications. Before getting another amp, see if you can try yours with an extension speaker, like the matching Peavey 112E cabinet. You might be surprised by how much difference it makes -- a little more volume, yes, but mainly lots more low end and overall authority. More "oomph" and punch. Just a thought.

Best of luck, CS

holgaguy · September 1st, 2003, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Just FYI: your C30 has four EL84s. I don't think you could coax 30 watts out of two of them -- not for long, anyway. ;-)

Whoops, I guess I can't count.

willie · September 2nd, 2003, 07:24 AM

I service both the Peavey and the Fender products on a daily basis. The Peavey EL-84 amps sound great, though the reverbs are a bit lightweight, but they are notoriously not road worthy. They PCBs in those amps are built in three pieces..and they are thin. They are held together with very small bus wire. We see a lot of problems with this construction when amps are moved a lot. Also, some of the Peavey EL-84 amps have no protection for the tubes from being hit from the rear.

The Fender EL-84 product had a lot of bugs in it but is now pretty much bug free, now that the reverb problems are solved. BUT...there is one thing that all EL-84 products have in common and that is an epidemic of mechanical noise caused by sympathetic vibration with the speaker. The only EL-84 amps we don't see this problem in non combo amps (heads). It appears that well over half and maybe as many as 75% of all the new amps we see have this rattle problem in the output tubes. The Mfg's have attempted to solve the problem with tube retainers that attempt to damp the vibration but it doesnt totally solve the problem. The situation is so bad with our Peavey Classic 30 stock that we have even considered not selling the very popular amp....not likely though. NOS EL-84s are not so prone to this mechanical rattle but most all of the current mfg tubes are to one degree or another. I would consider this issue before I settled on an EL-84 powered amp. We see far, far fewer such problems from other output tube types.

willie

holgaguy · September 2nd, 2003, 11:55 AM

Yes, I often hear that rattle in my Classic 30 at certain frequencies. It's bothersome, but it doesn't seem noticable when I am playing on stage.

The reverb unit rattles in the car on the way to a gig - I wonder if that will kill the unit eventually?

telemann51 · September 2nd, 2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holgaguy

Yes, I often hear that rattle in my Classic 30 at certain frequencies. It's bothersome, but it doesn't seem noticable when I am playing on stage.

The reverb unit rattles in the car on the way to a gig - I wonder if that will kill the unit eventually?

It's funny but I like the sound of my Holy Grail better than the sound of the reverb tank in my C30. Neither one is all that close to the reverb in my BFDR. I think it's just the springs rattling, anyway. The tube rattle is a minor annoyance that never crops up when I'm gigging with it, which is all I ever do with it any more. I usually practice with my Pro Jr.

holgaguy · September 2nd, 2003, 01:06 PM

Telemann51 - which Tele or Tele's (or other guitars) are you using with your C30 and have you tried any other speakers with it besides your Weber?

telemann51 · September 2nd, 2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holgaguy

Telemann51 - which Tele or Tele's (or other guitars) are you using with your C30 and have you tried any other speakers with it besides your Weber?

Hey - let's take this off-line. I'll PM you.

September 1st, 2003, 07:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
holgaguy Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 315	EL84's vs. 6L6's I'm sure there's been a lot of discussion about this but I'm wondering what the differences are between the two. I have Peavey Classic 30 (two 84's) and have been thinking about a more powerful amp like the Hot Rod Deluxe or DeVille - both of which use 6L6's I think. http://homepage.mac.com/davidniles/guitars/

September 1st, 2003, 08:09 AM	#2 (permalink)
MJ Harnish Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hattingen, Germany Posts: 457	Sonically and technically they're different but describing those differences are difficult since they are often used in very different circuits. Most EL84 amps are cathode-biased while most 6L6 amps are not; that alone has a major difference on the sound. EL84's also can't handle nearly as high a voltage as 6L6's which also has a very large effect on the resulting tone of the circuit. The same goes for preamp structures: It's much more common to find a multi-stage preamp (i.e., generating distortion) driving 6L6's than it is to find one pushing EL84's (a few Mesa amps use them though). So most people who describe the difference are liable to be describing the differences in the circuits rather than the tubes. What I can say is that 6L6s give you more headroom, less break-up, and an overall cleaner tone. They also give you a lot more output power for a given # of tubes. Probably the best A/B comparison is to find one of the Mesa Nomad series; the lower power ones use EL84's while the higher wattage ones use 6L6's I think. Of course, the circuits are not identical but at least they're sort of in the same ballpark. __________________ MJ Harnish Suburbs: Where they cut down all the trees and then name the streets after them.

September 1st, 2003, 08:17 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mr. Droopy-Drawers Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 223	The 6L6 DeVille amplifiers will have only a few more watts, which you may not even hear. Try the pair in a side-by-side 'shoot-out'. Most music stores should let you do it, especially if you are a regular customer. Then, decide for yourself if the extra 'bulk' is worth it. Standard Rant Alert! Opinions are like _________ (fill in the blank with any body part); everybody has at least one. For me, those Fender DeVille amplifiers seem to have trouble. I've seen many with 'bad' jacks, cold soldering, and the like. I've never owned one, but that's what I see. I have owned a Classic 50 since they first came out; and with no trouble other than tubes. The downside is this sucker is heavy (second only to my JCM800 combo). I'm sure the Classic 30 is also a great amplifier. I would keep it, and think about a more efficient speaker. It may be the ticket. It's tough to have a Cadillac that gets 100 miles-to-the-gallon. Getting a small amplifier that has some power (and tone) to it, without breaking your back and wallet, is everyone's quest. __________________ "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think!"

September 1st, 2003, 08:24 AM	#4 (permalink)
holgaguy Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 315	30 vs 50 I almost bought a 50. It was a choice between a used Classic 50 or new 30. The 50 was a heavy sucker and portability won out.

September 1st, 2003, 09:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
Mr. Droopy-Drawers Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 223	Well, I knew I was on the right track. I like Peavey, but like any other company, they think of their bottom line. Scrimping on the speaker can hurt your 'reputation', and now you know what I mean. It does depend on the music you play, too. Blue Guitar has the schematic and layout; you may want to look at 'beefing' up the circuit, if you think there's room for improvement there. I did a few of the Classic 50 mods, and they work. If they are 'better' is a matter of taste and opinion, but it's great the information is out there. Look up the schematic and layout at http://www.blueguitar.org. __________________ "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think!"

September 1st, 2003, 09:10 AM	#7 (permalink)
holgaguy Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 315	C30 speaker For the most part I play Chicago blues and some Jump blues so it looks like the Weber California might be a little too clean. Of course I'm also learning a lot more country licks with my Tele and a good clean sound is paramount for that style. Then of course there's the R&R I play .... so many things for one amp!

September 2nd, 2003, 07:24 AM	#11 (permalink)
willie TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dixie Posts: 30	EL-84 Amps... I service both the Peavey and the Fender products on a daily basis. The Peavey EL-84 amps sound great, though the reverbs are a bit lightweight, but they are notoriously not road worthy. They PCBs in those amps are built in three pieces..and they are thin. They are held together with very small bus wire. We see a lot of problems with this construction when amps are moved a lot. Also, some of the Peavey EL-84 amps have no protection for the tubes from being hit from the rear. The Fender EL-84 product had a lot of bugs in it but is now pretty much bug free, now that the reverb problems are solved. BUT...there is one thing that all EL-84 products have in common and that is an epidemic of mechanical noise caused by sympathetic vibration with the speaker. The only EL-84 amps we don't see this problem in non combo amps (heads). It appears that well over half and maybe as many as 75% of all the new amps we see have this rattle problem in the output tubes. The Mfg's have attempted to solve the problem with tube retainers that attempt to damp the vibration but it doesnt totally solve the problem. The situation is so bad with our Peavey Classic 30 stock that we have even considered not selling the very popular amp....not likely though. NOS EL-84s are not so prone to this mechanical rattle but most all of the current mfg tubes are to one degree or another. I would consider this issue before I settled on an EL-84 powered amp. We see far, far fewer such problems from other output tube types. willie

September 2nd, 2003, 11:55 AM	#12 (permalink)
holgaguy Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 315	re: EL84 rattle Yes, I often hear that rattle in my Classic 30 at certain frequencies. It's bothersome, but it doesn't seem noticable when I am playing on stage. The reverb unit rattles in the car on the way to a gig - I wonder if that will kill the unit eventually?

September 2nd, 2003, 01:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
holgaguy Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 315	re: Weber California Telemann51 - which Tele or Tele's (or other guitars) are you using with your C30 and have you tried any other speakers with it besides your Weber?