"tweed" clean versus "blackface" or "silverface" clean?

[appar111]

For those of you Fender amp lovers out there, can you give me some sort of description of the differences between the "tweed" clean sound as compared to the blackface or silverface Fender clean sound?

I've been digging my 59 BMRI alot lately (got it back from the tech in 1 day!), but in another year or so I may swap the speakers out and was wondering how much of the "tweed" clean sound is due to the low wattage (15 watts?) alnico 4x10's. I know the silverface stuff tends to use more moderate wattage ceramic speakers and solid state rectifiers. I'm not sure what the blackface stuff uses.

I had been looking into stuff like the Weber Ceramic California 10's and the Vintage Series 10F150T for a bigger clean sound while still retaining the Fender sparkle (this combo was recommended by Ted for a big loud Fender sound), which I think (based on what I've read) would lead me more into Fender silverface territory.

[sabby]

I heard this description once, and it seemed to nail it. Tweeds are peaches, and Blackfaces are apples.

Tweed as peach: Soft, sweet, colored, and juicy with a little fuzz on the outside.

Blackface as apple: Hard, crisp, and clean; perhaps a little dry.

[appar111]

interesting analogy.... where would silverface fall in?

[refin]

Tweeds are spongy sounding,usually distort earlier,and have a wonderful complexity in the lows/low mids (depending on the size).My personal experience (5 tweeds) is that the simpler,more primitive circuit allows YOU to come through the speaker.

[1293]

Originally Posted by appar111

interesting analogy.... where would silverface fall in?

You can't compare silverface amps with tweed or blackface amps. It's like apples and oranges. Sorry, I couldn't help it.

I have know firsthand experience, but here's a discussion of the differences between silver and blackface amps and the sonic impact of those differences:

http://acruhl.freeshell.org/mga/main/sf_bf_mod.html

[appar111]

So if I put new speakers in it in the next year or so, do you think I should stick with something similar to the low wattage alnicos that are in there now in order to keep the tweed sound?

If I ever did put new speakers in, it would be to get more clarity, body and an overall fuller clean sound for funk, etc. that I can put a distortion/overdrive pedal in front of for the more hard rock music.

To be honest though, the stock speakers sound great, and seem to deliver those requirements right now--- part of me is just curious if something like a couple Weber Cali 10's and a couple 10F150T's in the amp would give me even more of what I like about it already.

[Jammin'John]

Tweeds have more midrange & complex harmonics and "sing" more.
Silver & blackface have scooped midrange,are louder & tighter,and don't "sing" as well as tweedies.
That's why leo added reverb,too get some sustain,and that's why lots of players like to use pedals & effects with black/silverfaces to try & get overdrive & sustain.
To each his own.
I prefer tweed/brownface tone. YMMV

JJ

[Tim Swartz]

Originally Posted by appar111

interesting analogy.... where would silverface fall in?

They would fall squarely in the blackface camp.

[vibrolux40w]

For me, blackface and silverface amps (except for early white knob princetons), need reverb. There is just something lacking in the dry clean tone of these amps.

Tweed amps sound amazing "clean" without reverb, very complex and rich. I attribute this to the harmonics and overtones apparent in most tweeds. Saying this, the only tweed I have owned for any length of time was a Bassman. But, I am playing a tweed deluxe stlye amp right now that has me drooling every time I turn it on. It was built by a very respected amp guru around these parts, and I am astounded. I have not turned my silverface on since I got it.

[appar111]

vibrolux30w-
thanks for your opinion on things... what type of speakers do you have in your tweed deluxe style amp? (i.e. alnicos/ceramic, wattage, 10" or 12", etc.)

[3StringGuitar]

Every time I hear descriptions of tweeds it makes me want to play one hah, unfortunately I've never had the privilege to; hopefully one day I pickup a kit for one or something. They just always sound like the perfect amp for that dirty raw sound.

[vibrolux40w]

the bassman had Alnicos. The hand-built I am playing has a ceramic Eminence. I am O.K. with Alnico's in a multi speaker set-up like the Bassman. It was clean enough at volume. With a smaller single speaker amp like the Deluxe, it starts to break up very early. I doubt an alnico would satisfy me in this application. The ceramic allows it to retain some defintion and cleans even after saturation.

I am not sure I would say the smaller tweeds really have any "clean" on tap, especially at gig volume. But, that is why I like them. The subtle dirt and natural overdrive gives the "cleans" that extra something I want to hear.

[appar111]

I remember putting an alnico in a small 1x10 or 1x12 Boogie combo (Rocket or Caliber series) and it couldn't move air at all. Of course, it was a small amp, and one can only expect so much out of a single speaker, especially with a small magnet.

So would getting a couple ceramic Cali 10's (the "clean" machines) and a couple of the 10F150T's (mid 60's sparkley bright, late breakup) for the BMRI (evenually) be a good idea?

I wonder if anyone else on the boards has replaced the speakers in their Bassman Reissues...

[tdu]

Lot's of great descriptions. My Champster Special doesn't have a lot of cleans except at low volumes, but man do those clean tones sound amazing. The terms people use like 'complex' and 'rich' are bang on. Such a distinctive sound. It really makes me want to try a higer powered tweed amp.

[Dacious]

You have to remember - there are alnicos and alnicos. Not only the magnet, but the cone, smooth or ribbed, coil, voicecoil gap, spider stiffness, mounting. All these affect efficiency and sound. A D140 alnico JBL is still virtually as brash, strident, loud-sounding a speaker as a ceramic E140 is. An alnico Celestion Blue still pumps out amazing response compared to a ceramic Greenback. Just saying 'alnico' doesn't tell the whole story.

[mad dog]

BF and the later SF grew out of tweed circuits. As I understand it, BF mid-scoop voicings were intended to cut better as stages got louder. Leo knew what he was doing. Now, having played tweeds a bit, I value both approaches. The mid and large tweeds do have a fuller, more "tactile" clean. It's as if you could grab the tone out of the air. So different from the more stark, maybe hard-edged cleans of the later amps. (I use reverb with both, BTW.) Neither is better. You can easily shape tweed tone by swapping speakers. I love tweeds with efficient (short of JBL) ceramics. Heard a Pro-type with a Weber 15F150-O that kicked butt. It was that thicker clean, but louder, more headroom, less compression on the high end than that same amp would have with a vintage Jensen 15. I love alnicos as well, but to my ears they work better in multi-speaker set ups. I guess the bottom line to me is that the heavy compression of alnicos is linked to impressions of what tween clean is like. You can change that.

[vic108]

Originally Posted by sabby

I heard this description once, and it seemed to nail it.
Tweeds are peaches, and Blackfaces are apples.

Tweed as peach: Soft, sweet, colored, and juicy with a little fuzz on the outside.

Blackface as apple: Hard, crisp, and clean; perhaps a little dry.

If you WERE to TRY to describe the 'flavor' of the amps, I'd say
that in a figurative way, that's pretty good!